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Future 'FIXES'

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2 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

The issue is not the Snipers or their damage. It's the cheap activations and token predictability that Strike Teams give you. 

This benefit will persist regardless of new factions or objectives and will continue to penalize high cost units or low activation armies.

The easiest mitigation is simply to add a Pass rule. The player with fewer remaining activations gets the option to skip activations, until they no longer have fewer remaining activations.

That would deal with the activation advantage. However the token mix advantage remains.

I mean, the CIS are, so far, the cheaper option. So, again, probably not an issue. 

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1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

But if you don't play CIS, the situation will persist. Take all the snipers so CIS doesn't have quintuple your activations!

Aye, but at that point it becomes a dichotomy between strong activations, with many dice, that maybe clearcut the CIS’s cheaper activations.

The theory of extra activations being an end unto themselves hinges on the idea that both sides otherwise have parity; but that’s also obviously false. 

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8 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The theory of extra activations being an end unto themselves hinges on the idea that both sides otherwise have parity. 

No, it doesn't.

Activation advantage beats even extreme unit performance, because even the weakest unit becomes super strong if it can't be shot at.

An extreme example of this is why in Conflict of Heroes you could defeat a fortified machine gun nest with an unarmed horse cart.

 

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I think what we see in the higher levels of tournament play, is lots of cheap activations, and then 1 or 2 PUNCH units.

E.g. Bobba and Luke

Both wait till all of their cheaper units have acted, waiting to see where the enemy positions themselves, then they pounce.

It's a very effective and reliable tactic.

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1 hour ago, CaptainRocket said:

No, it doesn't.

Activation advantage beats even extreme unit performance, because even the weakest unit becomes super strong if it can't be shot at.

An extreme example of this is why in Conflict of Heroes you could defeat a fortified machine gun nest with an unarmed horse cart.

 

That falls apart in the face of objectives. If those snipers (or horse carts) aren’t doing something on the objective, they’re literally useless.

Also it’s not like Standby isn’t a thing.

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9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

That falls apart in the face of objectives. If those snipers (or horse carts) aren’t doing something on the objective, they’re literally useless.

Also it’s not like Standby isn’t a thing.

I don't understand what you mean about objectives.

Also Standby is most decidedly not a thing, when you can move into range and shoot it off.

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Just now, CaptainRocket said:

I don't understand what you mean about objectives.

Also Standby is most decidedly not a thing, when you can move into range and shoot it off.

I mean you can’t afford to sink a ton of points into something that isn’t participating. 132 is enough to subsidize some serious firepower that actually makes a difference in taking/holding one or more objectives.

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Just now, Derrault said:

I mean you can’t afford to sink a ton of points into something that isn’t participating. 132 is enough to subsidize some serious firepower that actually makes a difference in taking/holding one or more objectives.

Ah I see. I think you are mistaken.

Snipers today do nothing on objectives, and seldom do Sabs. Leia seldom does anything on objectives.

Yes, you win by objectives, but not every unit in a winning army contributes directly to them.

Strike Teams enable other units to take objectives by burning activations so those units can be safe. (The same way that horse carts did not charge the machine gun nests directly, but gamed the activation system)

I agree a true "overwatch" style action instead of the nerfy Standby would help. 

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32 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

Ah I see. I think you are mistaken.

Snipers today do nothing on objectives, and seldom do Sabs. Leia seldom does anything on objectives.

Yes, you win by objectives, but not every unit in a winning army contributes directly to them.

Strike Teams enable other units to take objectives by burning activations so those units can be safe. (The same way that horse carts did not charge the machine gun nests directly, but gamed the activation system)

I agree a true "overwatch" style action instead of the nerfy Standby would help. 

See, you can have that by using SF with the overwatch upgrade that expands their overwatch to range 3 (or use range 4 units like A-300 Pathfinders; X-34s; 1.4 FDs, and even range 4 equivalent units like the T-47).

ie If you have the speed and range to strike enemies despite their activating later, there’s no longer any benefit to their holding back. Indeed, it becomes a liability because now they’ve suffered wounds and do less damage (for non hero/non vehicles) or risk being destroyed entirely before they can move.

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5 hours ago, Derrault said:

See, you can have that by using SF with the overwatch upgrade that expands their overwatch to range 3 (or use range 4 units like A-300 Pathfinders; X-34s; 1.4 FDs, and even range 4 equivalent units like the T-47).

ie If you have the speed and range to strike enemies despite their activating later, there’s no longer any benefit to their holding back. Indeed, it becomes a liability because now they’ve suffered wounds and do less damage (for non hero/non vehicles) or risk being destroyed entirely before they can move.

But out activating units does not only happen against SF units which can take that upgrade. Most units cannot. So you would be spending more points reducing your activation pool further, to boost a few units which still cannot make up for the disparity.

The damage output most units have against cover makes your suggestion impractical. It's always better to wait especially if an enemy is foolish enough to run a few units into your superior number.

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6 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

But out activating units does not only happen against SF units which can take that upgrade. Most units cannot. So you would be spending more points reducing your activation pool further, to boost a few units which still cannot make up for the disparity.

The damage output most units have against cover makes your suggestion impractical. It's always better to wait especially if an enemy is foolish enough to run a few units into your superior number.

I’m saying it becomes all about positioning and maneuver then. There are going to be moves that are best when going first, and there are going to be moves that are best when going second.

If you are in the position of going first, you need to either have a plan of action for attacking your opponent, one for sitting tight (and still being successful), or one for maneuver to put your opponent into a position of having to move themselves or suffer greatly on the next turn.

The desire to not go first is advantageous perhaps for Imperial Stormtroopers, whose defense doesn’t rely on activating before being fired on, but it really just doesn’t fly for Rebel Troopers that need that dodge token to weather most fire.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Derrault said:

I’m saying it becomes all about positioning and maneuver then. There are going to be moves that are best when going first, and there are going to be moves that are best when going second.

If you are in the position of going first, you need to either have a plan of action for attacking your opponent, one for sitting tight (and still being successful), or one for maneuver to put your opponent into a position of having to move themselves or suffer greatly on the next turn.

The desire to not go first is advantageous perhaps for Imperial Stormtroopers, whose defense doesn’t rely on activating before being fired on, but it really just doesn’t fly for Rebel Troopers that need that dodge token to weather most fire.

Yes, it is precisely about positioning and maneuver, which is why going last after your opponent has spent all their ability to respond is great for Rebel Troopers. It more than flies, it soars. There is no better defense.

Sitting tight and still being successful doesn't cut it when the game is about objectives and most units don't have access to proper overwatch.

Fundamentally, without a pass and no generally available overwatch, high activation lists have an inherent advantage over low activation lists. This coudl be okay given the unit design.  However Strike Teams just make that too cheap and easy to come by with too few disadvantages. 

Edited by CaptainRocket

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2 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

Yes, it is precisely about positioning and maneuver, which is why going last after your opponent has spent all their ability to respond is great for Rebel Troopers. It more than flies, it soars. There is no better defense.

Sitting tight and still being successful doesn't cut it when the game is about objectives and most units don't have access to proper overwatch.

Fundamentally, without a pass and no generally available overwatch, high activation lists have an inherent advantage over low activation lists. This coudl be okay given the unit design.  However Strike Teams just make that too cheap and easy to come by with too few disadvantages. 

I don’t follow; unless you’re in a mirror match, it’s safe to assume the Imperials have you in range at 4, even if it’s just to layer on suppression. Going second merely serves to deprive those Rebels of a dodge token...

Sitting tight relies on LOS blocking terrain for anything further than your overwatch. (Ie 1-3) Some units (Fleet Troopers, FDs) are just built for it though, and others can pick it up from the upgrade; granted you have to plan for it.

Even without units specialized in standby, you can still make good use of it by depriving enemies of LOS until they enter into your kill zone.

This requires a good variety of terrain, per the tournament regulations. If the terrain is sub-par it’ll favor units that don’t want LOS blockers (aka the Imperials)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Derrault said:

I don’t follow;

If you have an even or close to even number of activations your analysis would be relevant (though incorrect about overwatch because sitting tight under those restrictions means you are not near the objectives).

However you don't. Instead if you try to buck the Strike Team meta what you have is two to four activation deficit, where going second means you don't care about not having a dodge token, or cover because you can maneuver or attack with impunity.

There is an activation game that is happening on a layer above the wargame. It takes the typical considerations of focusing fire and refusing a flank in physical battle field space and makes them far less relevant than the maneuver you artificial game mechanic activation time.

It is the ultimate OODA hack, except that it happens in reverse of what you should expect given unit qualities.

Edited by CaptainRocket

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1 minute ago, CaptainRocket said:

That is clear.

If you have an even or close to even number of activations your analysis would be relevant (though incorrect about overwatch because sitting tight under those restrictions means you are not near the objectives).

However you don't. Instead if you try to buck the Strike Team meta what you have is two to four activation deficit, where going second means you don't care about not having a dodge token, or cover because you can maneuver or attack with impunity.

There is an activation game that is happening on a layer above the wargame. It takes the typical considerations of focusing fire and refusing a flank in physical battle field space and makes them far less relevant than the maneuver you artificial game mechanic activation time.

It is the ultimate OODA hack, except that it happens in reverse of what you should expect given unit qualities.

There’s no reason you can’t be near the objective. That’s a bad assumption.

Second, going second matters because then the opponent can nail your troopers to the wall before they have a defense, and you suffer more wounds and deal less consequent damage than if you were able to activate them first.

Any method for getting ahead in the ooda loop only works until the second your opponent knows what you’re doing. Since you know, before the game even starts, who has more units to futz with, any steps needed can be taken immediately to mitigate such a plan. Generally speaking, this leads to avoiding the hammer or targeting it, forcing the opponent to use it or lose it. 

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For my part i believe Vader needs an offensive surge and a cost reduction. Scouts need a cost reduction because 15 pts each is too much for flakky white saves and pistols. And IRG need a point reduction, 25 points each and no surges at all.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Derrault said:

There’s no reason you can’t be near the objective. That’s a bad assumption.

Second, going second matters because then the opponent can nail your troopers to the wall before they have a defense, and you suffer more wounds and deal less consequent damage than if you were able to activate them first.

Any method for getting ahead in the ooda loop only works until the second your opponent knows what you’re doing. Since you know, before the game even starts, who has more units to futz with, any steps needed can be taken immediately to mitigate such a plan. Generally speaking, this leads to avoiding the hammer or targeting it, forcing the opponent to use it or lose it. 

That's not an assumption, it is how the game works. You start beyond range of the objectives and enemy engagement ranges and move into contact. Your opponent cannot nail your troopers by going first, you always have to accept the engagement. If you leave your troopers where you are going to be surprised by an enemy moving into range you're not pre-measuring threat ranges enough.

Also it is important to understand that an OODA loop exploit is effective regardless of enemy awareness. Without overwatch there is no effective mitigation. Units have enough mobility in game and flex-ability during deployment that you cannot avoid or target any hammers, especially since an activation advantage also give you a deployment advantage allowing you to place your key units last with perfect information and no way for the enemy to respond (classic OODA exploit).

There is one mitigation, which is to maximize activations, which all competitive players do.

High activation lists supporting one high impact unit, will beat low activation lists with many high impact units. I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. However when I play that way it works, and when I don't it's a struggle. 

So long as Strike Teams are a cheap way to pad activations you will see them dominate lists.

Because token diversity control also helps with exploiting the artificial OODA loop created by the activation rules, Strike Teams (and the required Special Forces slot) will also push out Support, Operative (unless an Operative is your one high impact unit) or Heavy as choices, multiplying the headwinds against picking more expensive units.

Edited by CaptainRocket

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37 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

And IRG need a point reduction, 25 points each and no surges at all.

They're some of the cheapest functional hit points in the game (taking save into account of course) and are the equal of Wookies in melee and ranged. I see them pretty often and there's no way they need much if anything.

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2 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

That's not an assumption, it is how the game works. You start beyond range of the objectives and enemy engagement ranges and move into contact. Your opponent cannot nail your troopers by going first, you always have to accept the engagement. If you leave your troopers where you are going to be surprised by an enemy moving into range you're not pre-measuring threat ranges enough.

Also it is important to understand that an OODA loop exploit is effective regardless of enemy awareness. Without overwatch there is no effective mitigation. Units have enough mobility in game and flex-ability during deployment that you cannot avoid or target any hammers, especially since an activation advantage also give you a deployment advantage allowing you to place your key units last with perfect information and no way for the enemy to respond (classic OODA exploit).

There is one mitigation, which is to maximize activations, which all competitive players do.

High activation lists supporting one high impact unit, will beat low activation lists with many high impact units. I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. However when I play that way it works, and when I don't it's a struggle. 

So long as Strike Teams are a cheap way to pad activations you will see them dominate lists.

Because token diversity control also helps with exploiting the artificial OODA loop created by the activation rules, Strike Teams (and the required Special Forces slot) will also push out Support, Operative (unless an Operative is your one high impact unit) or Heavy as choices, multiplying the headwinds against picking more expensive units.

No, see, that’s the thing, an OODA loop is a description of an actors decision-making process; anything that effects it, it known, gets incorporated, and then can be mitigated.

ie knowing that someone who is taking strike teams is doing to try and have unit blah act later allows a user to change their actions to mitigate that. 

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44 minutes ago, Derrault said:

No, see, that’s the thing, an OODA loop is a description of an actors decision-making process; anything that effects it, it known, gets incorporated, and then can be mitigated.

ie knowing that someone who is taking strike teams is doing to try and have unit blah act later allows a user to change their actions to mitigate that. 

There is an OODA loop in every move. It gets broken only when you run out of activations.

There is no mitigation for running out of activations in your actions (because you have to advance to objectives and overwatch is not generally avalible) other than maximizing activations.

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16 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

There is an OODA loop in every move. It gets broken only when you run out of activations.

There is no mitigation for running out of activations in your actions (because you have to advance to objectives and overwatch is not generally avalible) other than maximizing activations.

Maybe a microcosm of one, but the loop itself would be the entirety of the match, inclusive of even list making, card selection, terrain deployment, OCD selection, and unit deployment.

If you’re only thinking about it after activations start, you’re already too late. 

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