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toxic newb

Headroth's wall

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The card says "each friendly creatures on the flank get +2 power counters". Does this mean everytime a new creature goes to the flank, the +2 power TRANSFERS from the previous flanked creature, or does the previous flanked creature keep the +2? 

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Let's get the correct text first. Haedroth's Wall is an artifact that says "Each friendly flank creature gets +2 power." It doesn't say power tokens or power counters. +2 Power.

This means it only applies to the creatures on the flank. So when you put down new creatures you re-evaluate the board state and the two creatures on the flank are the ones that get the +2 power.

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If  that doesn't make sense, here's an example. Suppose your battle line looked like this before you played Haedroth's Wall (the power of the creature is shown in parenthesis):

                  B(3)       C(3)      D(5)

Then, after you play Hadroth's Wall, your battle line will look like this:

                  B(3+2=5)       C(3)      D(5+2=7)

Then you play another card on the right side of your line with a power of four. Your line now looks like this:

                  B(3+2=5)       C(3)      D(5)       E(4+2)

The "D" card loses its +2 bonus from the wall, since it's no longer a flank creature. After you do that, you end your turn, and on his turn, your opponent plays a card that does three points of damage to all creatures in play. That kills card C, so your line looks like this:

                  B(3+2=5  3 damage)       D(5 3 damage)       E(4+2   3 damage)

Then it becomes your turn. You play a card on the left side of your line with a power of five, so your line looks like this now:

                  A(5+2=7)      B(3  3 damage)       D(5 3 damage)       E(4+2   3 damage)

Then, immediately after you play that card, before you do anything else, card "B", which just lost it's +2 power bonus since it's no longer a flank creature, ends up with damage equal to its power, so it's destroyed. Your line now looks like this:

                A(5+2=7)      D(5 3 damage)       E(4+2   3 damage)

Does that make more sense?

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Another question:

How does this interact with ‘Might makes right‘?

(Play: You may sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 25 or more. If you do, forge a key at no cost.)

Do I only have to sacrifice creatures with a total strength of 21, as long as two of them are on the flanks?

Edited by Captain_Nemo

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7 hours ago, Captain_Nemo said:

Another question:

How does this interact with ‘Might makes right‘?

(Play: You may sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 25 or more. If you do, forge a key at no cost.)

Do I only have to sacrifice creatures with a total strength of 21, as long as two of them are on the flanks?

One might argue that you could come in from the flanks and add power each time you sacrifice a flank creature.  i.e. I have two 5 power flank creatures with +2 counters and I sacrifice them for 14 power, then the two creatures that are now flank get +2 and so on.  I think with the Archimedes ruling, that seems to make sense.  Am I wrong?

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I think you're wrong, but am not fully positive. The question is whether or not this card has you sacrifice one creature at a time, or if you do all of them simultaneously. If it's simultaneously, then no, there has to be 25 power actively on the the cards you chose when you did your thing. If it's one at a time, then yes, you can collect the boost for each card individually.

But I think this is an instant, simultaneous effect, so you need 25 power on the cards when you play Might Makes Right.

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7 hours ago, Xelto said:

I think you're wrong, but am not fully positive. The question is whether or not this card has you sacrifice one creature at a time, or if you do all of them simultaneously. If it's simultaneously, then no, there has to be 25 power actively on the the cards you chose when you did your thing. If it's one at a time, then yes, you can collect the boost for each card individually.

But I think this is an instant, simultaneous effect, so you need 25 power on the cards when you play Might Makes Right.

I don't disagree, but its so ambiguous with the other rulings I can see how it might be possible.  I would prefer it was all at once personally. 

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10 hours ago, dpuck1998 said:

One might argue that you could come in from the flanks and add power each time you sacrifice a flank creature.  i.e. I have two 5 power flank creatures with +2 counters and I sacrifice them for 14 power, then the two creatures that are now flank get +2 and so on.  I think with the Archimedes ruling, that seems to make sense.  Am I wrong?

I don't think you are wrong, that's how I would play it given the Archimedes ruling.

The Archimedes ruling implies that after a creature is destroyed there is a brief window where a constant ability can qualify for a new target when applicable. In Archimedes' case when the neighbors who are destroyed trigger their destroyed ability and they are archived the new neighbors can now gain that ability, thus being archived instead of destroyed as well. As vocal as I have been about not liking it I have started understanding and accepting it over the past few days - scary!

Building on that to me it is perfectly reasonable that if you use Might Makes Right to sacrifice/destroy a flank creature that is gaining a power boost from Headroth's Wall there is now a new flank creature that immediately gains that power boost, even if it is happening simultaneously.

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 2:47 PM, Admiral Deathrain said:

The Archimedes-ruling isn't applicable here. The crux there is that the destroyed effect he grants specifically removes the creatures from the battlefield.

Correct. Archimedes is not a new template for when many things die at once. FFG are still holding that all creatures die at the same time to sweeper effects and no order is chosen (nerfing tolas and similar effects). Archimedes grants an ability that triggers before anything are destroyed. That creature gets archived before anything is destroyed, the battleline shifts, and a new creature becomes the Owl's neighbor. We check to see if there are any more Before triggers, and yes, there are. The new neighbor gets archived, the battleline is shifted, and this is repeated until Archimedes has no more neighbors. Once all Before effects are resolved, every remaining creature dies at the same time to whatever just killed them.

Might Makes Right only checks Power when creatures is destroyed. Only the two creature on the flanks when it was played get the +2 Power bonus, assuming more than 2 creatures.

 

 

Edited by HaphazardNinja

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14 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

You can't have it both ways. You both are agreeing that Archimedes's constant ability can shift to new targets when applicable, so by extension you have to be consistent and say the same for other constant abilities. That is the timing precedent that has been set.

It is not. The point is that the effect archimedes grants removes creatures earlier than others. The steps are: 

  1. Multiple ceatures are chosen to be destroyed by an effect simultaneously
  2. Destroyed effects are triggered while the cards are still in board (this is the point where the archimedes cascade happens, because the archiving removes the creature from the board within this step)
  3. Creatures are removed simultaneously

Headroth's Wall doesn't involve step 2 assuming there are no destroyed effects involved (Hexpion on the flank would for example have strenght cascading).

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So not to make this "dead thread resurrection week" but I came back to this thread after @toxic newbmentioned it in another one. 

Just wanted to say all my contentions about this card and its interactions with Might Makes Right were removed by the newest rules update, specifically the new clearly defined destruction process. 

Are there still any unresolved questions in that light? I believe everything asked about has been resolved.

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