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Mending the Gap (Ace vs. Generic Squadrons)

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On 6/28/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ling27 said:

I agree. I dont mind the squadron game, now that I have begun to use it more effectively myself; however, I would rather take more ships than squadrons. I just wish Flaking was better.

I 100% believe that if flaking was better, there would be less issue with squadrons.

What if concentrate fire added a die to all anti Squadron attacks in an arc?

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19 minutes ago, Church14 said:

This thread reminds me that game balance is more delicate than most realize. 

Yet people also complain constantly about not getting new things quickly enough to keep their attention.

Theres a horrifically delicate balance, and of all FFG games, it’s Armada which maintains that balance better than most - not perfectly, not all the time - but better than most. 

And it’s cautious development cycle has to be part of that.

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I'd like to see a points limit for how many unique squadrons you can take.  Something like 'No more than half of the maximum squadron value may be unique squadrons'.  Maybe I'm salty because I play Rebels, but I'm very tired of almost every Imperial fleet running MMJ and 3-4 scatter aces, because why wouldn't you be doing that? 

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30 minutes ago, JauntyChapeau said:

I'd like to see a points limit for how many unique squadrons you can take.  Something like 'No more than half of the maximum squadron value may be unique squadrons'.  Maybe I'm salty because I play Rebels, but I'm very tired of almost every Imperial fleet running MMJ and 3-4 scatter aces, because why wouldn't you be doing that? 

Does MMJ and 5-6 Interceptors sound better?

I mean, it doesn't to me...  But without a more fundamental change, that's the shift you're most likely to see.

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9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Does MMJ and 5-6 Interceptors sound better?

I mean, it doesn't to me...  But without a more fundamental change, that's the shift you're most likely to see.

Well, MMJ is 68 points and at 400 points, that's more than half of your allotted squadrons points.  MMJ = 68, so you'd have 66 remaining, making MMJ an illegal inclusion.  I feel like it's a fairly elegant solution, as it deals with MMJ as well as any other abusive combos (I can't think of any right now) as well as silently nerfing any once or future version of Rieekan Aceholes.

Edited by JauntyChapeau

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Honestly, I would love to see officer versions of the aces, that boost generic squadrons, possibly of only their type. Rhymer, could allow you to activate TIE Bombers from short to long range. Sontier Fel could allow ona additional squadron of TIE Interceptors to be activated... I would love to see some of the aces act as flight command officers.

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Just now, JauntyChapeau said:

Well, MMJ is 68 points and at 400 points, that's more than half of your allotted squadrons points.  MMJ = 68, so you'd have 66 remaining, making MMJ an illegal inclusion.

Point conceded there, but I've always seen Morna as an unneccessary inclusion, basically...  Maarek, Jendon and Scatter Aces is horrendous enough.

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On 6/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, duck_bird said:

Scatter is so very not the issue.

My personal gripe is with highly self sufficient high-hull aces that are good at everything.

I'd love to see a lot of generics get a little cheaper so you can run more of em.

Mareek is an amazing value for his stats+ability. 

Han and Jan are amazing too, but Han is expensive and Jan has only 4 hull requiring an Escort or two. 

Aces are extremely good especially if you see the devastation a MMJ or Sloane/Pryce/Last/First list can do. 

What I've consistently found to be better than Acehole lists is deployment advantage, activation advatange and going first. 

Edited by eliteone

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Also people don't run Slicer Tools. Rebels have Quantam Storm and Imperials can make an ECM Flotilla with Slicers. 

Make that carrier sit around and do nothing. At the very least, if deployed correctly your slicer will be a threat your opponent has to worry about. 

If that's not your play style you can bring Bossk, Morna, Jendon for death or YT1300/2400, VCXs to soak fighter damage. 

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22 minutes ago, eliteone said:

Also people don't run Slicer Tools. Rebels have Quantam Storm and Imperials can make an ECM Flotilla with Slicers. 

Make that carrier sit around and do nothing. At the very least, if deployed correctly your slicer will be a threat your opponent has to worry about. 

If that's not your play style you can bring Bossk, Morna, Jendon for death or YT1300/2400, VCXs to soak fighter damage. 

This approach is super meta dependent. I've always disliked squadrons and tried to find ways to compete without them, so Slicer Tools was amazing for me. After a month or so, the folks that loved squadrons just started taking insurance. Skilled First Officer, Support Officer, and Wing Commander start showing up when a meta makes good use of Slicer Tools. Not disagreeing, just pointing out that there are a fair number of ways around Slicer Tools that squad-centric admirals will absolutely use, even if they aren't the most efficient upgrades.

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31 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Not disagreeing, just pointing out that there are a fair number of ways around Slicer Tools that squad-centric admirals will absolutely use, even if they aren't the most efficient upgrades.

If someone starts messing with your way to play the game, then non-efficent upgrades that counter that messing with, become efficent. Dont they?

I took Tidus recently, argueably one of the least efficent or effective officers, in a game recently against the new players in my area. I played on my own against 3 of them. I toggled their biggest ship (VSD) to 0 (they deployed at 1) and explained the way to fix it. I dont know if he wasnt paying attention, but he didnt put a nav dial, had no way to switch to a nav dial, and had completly thought stacking Squadrons, ConFire, then, Engineering was the best move.

His TIEs stopped mine, sure. But his VSD didnt move for 4 turns. I was able to pick off the smaller ships and then just begin long range broadsiding with Arquitens.

In that instance, the most efficent upgrades would have been ones to adjust dials. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

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2 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

If someone starts messing with your way to play the game, then non-efficent upgrades that counter that messing with, become efficent. Dont they?

I took Tidus recently, argueably one of the least efficent or effective officers, in a game recently against the new players in my area. I played on my own against 3 of them. I toggled their biggest ship (VSD) to 0 (they deployed at 1) and explained the way to fix it. I dont know if he wasnt paying attention, but he didnt put a nav dial, had no way to switch to a nav dial, and had completly thought stacking Squadrons, ConFire, then, Engineering was the best move.

His TIEs stopped mine, sure. But his VSD didnt move for 4 turns. I was able to pick off the smaller ships and then just begin long range broadsiding with Arquitens.

In that instance, the most efficent upgrades would have been ones to adjust dials. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

You are absolutely correct, potentially poor wording on my part. All I was really trying to say is that Slicer Tools is far from a perfect answer for dealing with squadrons, especially Aces. There are a TON of ways to generate tokens, so if all you really need to activate is Jendon and Maarek, Slicer Tools isn't going to hurt you much. If you're looking for more, then upgrades exist to solve that problem too.

That said, the particular example you presented is very common for new players. When you start playing Armada, the sexy commands like ConFire are way more tempting. Once you learn the game, you rarely start a game without at least one Nav in the stack... at least that's my experience.

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The problem with slicer tools is that alot of squad heavy lists plan to counter them, I. E. Thrawn 2 ship doesn't give 2 darns if you have slicer tools. 

So they are match up dependent and then they can be easily countered in the match ups they want anyway. 

Edited by clontroper5

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On 7/1/2019 at 9:26 AM, JauntyChapeau said:

I'd like to see a points limit for how many unique squadrons you can take.  Something like 'No more than half of the maximum squadron value may be unique squadrons'.  Maybe I'm salty because I play Rebels, but I'm very tired of almost every Imperial fleet running MMJ and 3-4 scatter aces, because why wouldn't you be doing that? 

What's "MMJ"? I'm an imperial player, and I'm wondering what I'm missing out on.

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