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High Velocity is the Culprit! (I think)

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There are many ways to fix the sniper problem:

  • Make strike teams unique
  • Make strike teams a detachment
  • Limit the snipers range (2-4, 3+, 1-4, lots of options)
  • Increase cost
  • Remove keywords
  • Make the sniper exhaust

It doesn't matter which combination of the above they go with.

I don't think terrain is a good solution. In any given tournament there should be tables with a variety of terrain. On any given table there should be different areas with different types of terrain. That variety keeps things interesting and makes different units shine in different circumstances.

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10 hours ago, Thraug said:

Alex said on the World's cast that snipers are defintely being looked at. Something like out of a possible 24 snipers at Worlds, there were 20. 1 player used 3 saboteurs. One other had 2.

0 vehicles

0 Support units

Did their lists change substantially from the things they ran regionally though? If not why is it weird/bad/surprising that they’d continue apace at worlds?

How about their competition regionally? How many full sniper team lists do you think the Sabs and Palpatine lists leveled before getting there? Probably a lot more yeah?

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13 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I've never used high velocity or seen it used.

Sharpshooter + pierce + unlimited range = near certain ability to remove a single model per shot.

High Velocity isn't so much used as it is applied to the shot.  

It's not an action you take, in so much as it prevents an action (spending a dodge token) for the target. 

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2 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

High Velocity isn't so much used as it is applied to the shot.  

It's not an action you take, in so much as it prevents an action (spending a dodge token) for the target. 

I had read that as his saying the situation of a target having a dodge token when a sniper fires on it had never come up. 

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52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Did their lists change substantially from the things they ran regionally though? If not why is it weird/bad/surprising that they’d continue apace at worlds?

How about their competition regionally? How many full sniper team lists do you think the Sabs and Palpatine lists leveled before getting there? Probably a lot more yeah?

20 out of 24 max.

??????

 

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27 minutes ago, Thraug said:

20 out of 24 max.

??????

 

That doesn’t answer either of my questions. 

Let’s put it another way: in any given regional of say, 32 players, 1 player advances

If there were 26-30 players fielding similar compositions with Strike teams, than it’s very likely that those compositions are the ones to advance. But, it also means that a vastly larger number of those compositions failed to advance whether or not one does.

Meaning by virtue of prevalence they also have a much higher failure rate than the other non-strike team saturated comps.

 

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Legion players are lucky, I have seen X-Wing, Armada, MTG and Imperial Assault (among others) Regional/National/World's where 90% percent of the field is mirror matches and Legion we have to put up with  a sniper team being about 20-30% of people's list. You do not know how **** it is to see Fat Han or Toilet seats at 6-7 of the top 8 cut tables, or ask IA  players what they think about Spectres.

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Exactly what I think.

People shoyld start thinking how to go antimeta.

What if some rebel player took 3 full wookie units instead of snipers? Do you really think he would suffer? Or maybe he would make holes in the tables

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2 hours ago, toffolone said:

What if some rebel player took 3 full wookie units instead of snipers? Do you really think he would suffer? Or maybe he would make holes in the tables

I am toying with a 3 Wookie 10 activation list right now. I think it has many of the same benefits in terms of activation control but with more impactful units instead of snipers. Still highly dependant on having plenty of LOS terrain.

To my mind though, that's just a different version of the same problem though, because while it could be a counter-meta list, it is still a high activation, low token diversity list. There's only maybe one more of those to add to the mix (Krennic/Veers & DTs)? Nothing that helps support, heavies, or lots of commander & operative investment.

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On 6/23/2019 at 8:19 PM, Thraug said:

Alex said on the World's cast that snipers are defintely being looked at. Something like out of a possible 24 snipers at Worlds, there were 20. 1 player used 3 saboteurs. One other had 2.

0 vehicles

0 Support units

The more likely explanation is that the other option that one could take instead of Sniper's are so bad that they're not worth it.

Its not that Snipers are too strong, they're fine. Its that the alternatives are lame. So the real solution is to make the alternatives more viable, not nerf snipers.

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1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

Its not that Snipers are too strong, they're fine. Its that the alternatives are lame. So the real solution is to make the alternatives more viable, not nerf snipers.

I agree. Many units  are not that viable (for their points) so snipers are often a better choice. Nerfing seldom solves balance issues, but buffing weaker stuff to bring them in line is a better solution IMO.

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Theyre certainly a bit annoying but their sniping alone is really not why you see them everywhere, its the extra activations.  You could nerf them of course, but it leaves you with the same problem down the road.

They could be reigned in a bit in the short term with a hard errata like removing high velocity, pierce, a range change, etc... But I think the activation issue is at the real foundation of the spam. 

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14 hours ago, costi said:

I really think a list with 3 Wookies and 3 flamer AT-RTs would make a complete mess of every Worlds list.

No, pretty sure they would just die in massive numbers just trying to approach the gun line.  Maybe they'd put in some work and take out a squad, but I doubt it. 

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7 hours ago, Ghost Dancer said:

I agree. Many units  are not that viable (for their points) so snipers are often a better choice. Nerfing seldom solves balance issues, but buffing weaker stuff to bring them in line is a better solution IMO.

And then two years from now everyone is complaining about power creep.  After years of seeing this article of faith/sibboleth brought forth in gaming communities for 20+ years I think it has more to do with where people see themselves in the world than it does with game design.  

 

16 hours ago, costi said:

I really think a list with 3 Wookies and 3 flamer AT-RTs would make a complete mess of every Worlds list.

That is a falsifiable hypothesis.  Let us know what you find. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

And then two years from now everyone is complaining about power creep.  After years of seeing this article of faith/sibboleth brought forth in gaming communities for 20+ years I think it has more to do with where people see themselves in the world than it does with game design.  

 

That is a falsifiable hypothesis.  Let us know what you find. 

 

I *AM VERY GLAD* we don't have power creep!

The fact that Luke and Leia and Veers and Stormtroopers are super viable is a great great bit of design balance!!!🙌

That said, I have bought a lot of little plastic people since then, that are better at setting dioramas with, than actually bringing to a game store event...😭

 

Last night I brought three Wookies, Leia and 6 Rebel Troops, to face off against a Krennic, DT, 2x Sniper, Snows & Storms list. It wasn't quite the meta-match up, but I did make an absolute mess of his army. Locked in an intercept transmissions victory on round 4, and was quite possibly on the way to wiping the other list completely.

Is it competitive I dunno, but it's not crazy un-viable. It feels very much like a meta list however. All the interest in one or two heroes (in this case the Wookies, Leia was bare bones), souless swarm for the rest. It actually felt bad to play. This reinforces my sense that activation and token mix beat most other factors right now.

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40 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

Last night I brought three Wookies, Leia and 6 Rebel Troops....

I'm playing with variations of luke/sabine/wookiees super melee rushing tactics.  So far it's fun if nothing else.  

My comment was more to costi who alleges that AT-RTs with wookiees will kill the Imperial meta.  Which could be true, but he should test that rather than assert it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

I'm playing with variations of luke/sabine/wookiees super melee rushing tactics.  So far it's fun if nothing else.  

My comment was more to costi who alleges that AT-RTs with wookiees will kill the Imperial meta.  Which could be true, but he should test that rather than assert it. 

 

You two could easily square off on TableTop Simulator.  The Legion mod is awesome and easy to use.

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17 minutes ago, Prokins said:

You two could easily square off on TableTop Simulator.  The Legion mod is awesome and easy to use.

I use it, and I think that my mediocre skill level would skew the results. 

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It's an interesting theory.  Wookies and AT-RTs are some of the more durable options for their points in the game, but they're not above the stuff that currently gets shot of the table.  The question is really whether its enough durability across the board to get enough into combat to where the gunline loses a lot of its punch.

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3 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

It's an interesting theory.  Wookies and AT-RTs are some of the more durable options for their points in the game, but they're not above the stuff that currently gets shot of the table.  The question is really whether its enough durability across the board to get enough into combat to where the gunline loses a lot of its punch.

I'm toying with Environmental gear.  

The list I'm working up is all maneuverability Sabine+ Wookiees and Luke with Z6 Squads in Environmental gear.  This would, in theory allow them to rush the gunline for disruption and to remove the amount of unanswered shots that the Imperial Line can put out.  It doesn't solve the problem of white dice for saves but but I'm eager to try it and if nothing else I think it's fun. 

 

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16 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

No, pretty sure they would just die in massive numbers just trying to approach the gun line.  Maybe they'd put in some work and take out a squad, but I doubt it. 

You have 18 wounds with Armor and 36 wounds in the Wookie squads, not to mention the corps and leaders. 

That's a lot to chew through ;)

I've seen it in action and it's brutal.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, costi said:

You have 18 wounds with Armor and 36 wounds in the Wookie squads, not to mention the corps and leaders. 

That's a lot to chew through ;)

I've seen it in action and it's brutal.

I saw something similar last night and it got absolutely annihilated by the imperial player.  Neither of the players were particularly skilled, but it was quite one sided.  In my experience, Wookiees aren't worth their points, and the flamer is the last weapon you want to put on an AT-RT because it requires you to bum rush your opponent.  With the AT-RT's terrible defensive die, that's not a good option.  Against armies that can just sit back at range 3-4 and pelt you with snipers, DLTs, and command card bombardments, that's an even worse option.  Baring the normal terrible rolls on either side, I don't see it working out.   EDIT: Especially against a player of the skill level of the World's players.

Edited by Alpha17

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8 hours ago, costi said:

You have 18 wounds with Armor and 36 wounds in the Wookie squads, not to mention the corps and leaders. 

That's a lot to chew through ;)

I've seen it in action and it's brutal.

It's also brutal on the wookiees.

You're still up against white saves.  A stormtrooper unit gets 3.25 hits on average if the whole squad can shoot.  That's 57.87% chance to not roll any saves.  Even if every die lands a hit and you have heavy cover, you've still got almost 50% chance to take all the damage.  

It's fun...I like playing it....but as Falstaff said..."food for powder, food for powder"

 

And then of course some days the dice aren't with you at all.  I had a game last night where my opponent did more damage to himself with his sab teams than I did with my own units.  One round I had one round I think I got 2 hits with 2 z6 squads, 1 with sabine, 1 with luke (ranged) and 1 each with 2 wookiie squads. Meanwhile he took out a full sab team and a sab strike team with own goals.  

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