Skirmish Tactics

[welldressedgent 12]

Trying to learn the game and couldn't find a thread on this. My first (possibly mistaken?) impression...

AIR stance is strong against EARTH attacks and weak against FIRE attacks.

EARTH stance is strong against WATER attacks and weak against AIR attacks.

FIRE stance is strong against AIR attacks and weak against WATER (makes sense).

WATER stance is strong against FIRE attacks and weak against EARTH attacks.

So Water > Fire > Air > Earth > Water. Choose the right stance and you win.

VOID has no real strength/weakness, and lets you change stance if you miss using Void Strike.

So you should want to act last, right? Or if you must act first, assume void stance.

 

 

[kpsmith 248]

Air increases your TN so it's harder to hit you.
Earth prevents you from receiving a Critical Hit from opportunities or Conditions.
Water allows you to take an additional action.
Fire gives you bonus successes based on Strife.
Void ignores Strife altogether.

None of them are particularly better against another as each has an advantage you might consider in a given circumstance.

[welldressedgent 12]

I realize you can always strike or guard or whatever; but...

I was thinking of the kata that use each element. I have to be in fire stance to use Heartpiercing Strike, right?

And it works poorly against water. My guy faces an enemy in earth stance, prefers to attack with an air kata.

The enemy respond with, I don't know, Iron In The Mountains Style, which will probably fail.

This assumes you and your opponent both know a range of kata. Am I reading these rules right?

Edited June 21, 2019 by welldressedgent

[Avatar111 553]

47 minutes ago, welldressedgent said:

I realize you can always strike or guard or whatever; but...

I was thinking of the kata that use each element. I have to be in fire stance to use Heartpiercing Strike, right?

And it works poorly against water. My guy faces an enemy in earth stance, prefers to attack with an air kata.

The enemy respond with, I don't know, Iron In The Mountains Style, which will probably fail.

This assumes you and your opponent both know a range of kata. Am I reading these rules right?

When you attack someone in a conflict, you always know the stance they are in. So yes, if you have a Kata that works better against an element, it is wise to use it against opponents in that stance.

But, many other reasons can be made for which stance (or technique) you have to use. Sometimes you might just want the opportunities from a specific ring, for example.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

It is more like:

• Air is strong against Fire because the +1 TN makes the Fire effect so much harder to achieve. 
• Water is strong against Air because you can bypass the +1 TN by assist tag-teaming with a buddy (so you assist each others' attacks, essentially negating the +1 TN). 
• Earth is strong against Water because its effect doesn't care about extra actions.
• Fire is strong against Earth because its effect works via Fatigue overdosing rather than Opportuinity shenangians. 
• Void is generally strong against all of them because you are winning the Strife game with it tho you will feel pretty gimped for most of the fight. 

[wastevens 21]

Context is everything.

• If you are in heavy armor, you are less concerned with damage (because you'll ignore more of it) and more concerned with being hit by a critical strike. This means Earth Stance is going to help you.
• If you are in light or no armor, then you are more concerned about every hit you take because you'll become Incapacitated much more quickly. This means that you probably want either Air (against a 'typical' starting opponent with 3 Ring and 2 skill, moving the TN from 2 to 3 reduces your chance of being hit by almost 20%), or Water (and use your extra action to move in and out of range).
• If you have a big ****off weapon (like a tetsubo or otuschi), you might favor Fire Stance and just plan on knocking ***** into Incapacitated with one swing.
• If you are in a situation where you can't afford to Unmask or become Compromised, Void will obviously help you keep your cool.

These things change further depending on the Terrain, if you (or your opponents!) have allies, what your objectives are, what katas you know, what your strongest and weakest rings are, etcetcetc.

It's decidedly not "Stance X beats Stance Y"; the variable difficulty for resisting the consequences of some Techniques would be like, a tertiary consideration in my book. 

[MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving 133]

Welldressedgent, I get what you're saying, and I'm with you. If you regularly fight people in fire stance, it might be worth picking up Crashing Wave Style or Flowing Water Strike (two techniques that require you to be in Water stance) because they're especially effective against people in fire stance. As other posters have clarified, there are other things to consider, but I do think there is an element of rock-paper-scissors.

[welldressedgent 12]

Cool handle! Thanks for the advice people. I have lots to think about... just read the why-is-air-bad thread and this is going to be more complicated than I thought.

Are there any good tactics (not character build) primers? Mostly interested in skirmishes and social for now.

 

wdg

Edited June 22, 2019 by welldressedgent

[Void Crane 189]

I think Earth is the default defensive Ring.

At low level play Air is also very good. At higher levels of play where rings and skills are higher that extra +1 to your TN is worth less than the early days of your samurai. On the other hand in Air ring you can spend an opportunity to pass it along to your next roll. Making crits much easier...so its also kind of the back up offensive ring. Which brings us to ...

Fire is the default offensive ring.

If you have Iron Forrest Style or Archery then the mobility of Water ring will be amazing for you. Its also the ring you switch to when you are sucking air and need to recover stamina.

At higher levels there is some amazing stuff for void...but at the beginning, not so much.

I don't know of any great tactics primers per se. You obviously want to fight at the range that is best for your weapon...and if that isn't the best for your opponent so much the better. Wear the heaviest armor you can get away with socially. ...

 

[welldressedgent 12]

So besides void strike, what else do you consider amazing about void stance?

[AtoMaki 1,431]

3 hours ago, welldressedgent said:

So besides void strike, what else do you consider amazing about void stance?

It is the best stance for Strife Attrition Warfare because you can Guard for all eternity and receive 0 Strife for it while forcing your enemy to either just stare at you intensely or eat Strife while trying to hit you. Void also has a nasty Opportunity that gives -1 TN to your next check using Air/Earth/Fire/Water (you have to pick one) - this can be tough for your enemy if you decide to strike from your Void Guard.   

[Avatar111 553]

10 hours ago, welldressedgent said:

So besides void strike, what else do you consider amazing about void stance?

Void points are extremely strong.

The stance itself is a good plan if you are nearing unmasking and a few other things.

Probably not a got to stance, but can come in handy. Most players will want to raise void anyway sooner than later, can't dump it.

[wastevens 21]

7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It is the best stance for Strife Attrition Warfare because you can Guard for all eternity and receive 0 Strife for it while forcing your enemy to either just stare at you intensely or eat Strife while trying to hit you. Void also has a nasty Opportunity that gives -1 TN to your next check using Air/Earth/Fire/Water (you have to pick one) - this can be tough for your enemy if you decide to strike from your Void Guard.   

Eh, if all you do is Guard while in Void, you won't be acquiring Strife, but your opponent is likely to hit you sooner rather than later.

Assuming you're facing an opponent with at least 3 in the ring they are using to attack, and you have a 3 in Void, you're moving their chance to hit from about 50% to about 25% most rounds. But they *can* hit you, can you *can't* hit them.

And that's assuming they aren't in Fire Stance, eat the Strife and club your head off with a Tetsubo; if you can do enough damage in one swing, it doesn't matter how much Strife you generate. You'll be unmasked, but your opponent will be unconscious.

[Avatar111 553]

39 minutes ago, wastevens said:

Eh, if all you do is Guard while in Void, you won't be acquiring Strife, but your opponent is likely to hit you sooner rather than later.

Assuming you're facing an opponent with at least 3 in the ring they are using to attack, and you have a 3 in Void, you're moving their chance to hit from about 50% to about 25% most rounds. But they *can* hit you, can you *can't* hit them.

And that's assuming they aren't in Fire Stance, eat the Strife and club your head off with a Tetsubo; if you can do enough damage in one swing, it doesn't matter how much Strife you generate. You'll be unmasked, but your opponent will be unconscious.

One round of void guard isn't bad. You can fish for some opportunities to improve your initiative and get a -1tn next round. Situationally good. But ultimately, void stance is probably not the stance you want to stick in for multiple rounds most of the time.

All other stances have more use depending the circumstances. Void is always "ok" though. And as I mentioned earlier, a good void ring is something you will want, and need, sooner than later probably around rank 2 or 3.

[JBento 229]

2 hours ago, wastevens said:

Eh, if all you do is Guard while in Void, you won't be acquiring Strife, but your opponent is likely to hit you sooner rather than later.

Assuming you're facing an opponent with at least 3 in the ring they are using to attack, and you have a 3 in Void, you're moving their chance to hit from about 50% to about 25% most rounds. But they *can* hit you, can you *can't* hit them.

And that's assuming they aren't in Fire Stance, eat the Strife and club your head off with a Tetsubo; if you can do enough damage in one swing, it doesn't matter how much Strife you generate. You'll be unmasked, but your opponent will be unconscious.

If Guarding is something you find yourself using more often than "very rarely", you're going to be getting Crescent Moon Style. You can totally hit them.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

4 hours ago, wastevens said:

Assuming you're facing an opponent with at least 3 in the ring they are using to attack, and you have a 3 in Void, you're moving their chance to hit from about 50% to about 25% most rounds. 

It is a lot worse. They go from TN 2 to TN 4 if you Guard, so if they roll 6k3 (3 Skill + 3 Ring, like the bog standard Loyal Bushi) then they will go to an almost 100% success rate down to roughly 33% - they actually have to rely on Explosions because they can't keep enough dice to hit you. 

Fire Stance here does not work. It only gives bonus successes, so it is worthless if they can't meet the TN. 

[wastevens 21]

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

It is a lot worse. They go from TN 2 to TN 4 if you Guard, so if they roll 6k3 (3 Skill + 3 Ring, like the bog standard Loyal Bushi) then they will go to an almost 100% success rate down to roughly 33% - they actually have to rely on Explosions because they can't keep enough dice to hit you.

If you guard, you roll Tactics at TN1; on a success, you increase the TN to hit you by 1 until the next turn, plus an additional one per two bonus successes.

Are you assuming that every time you Guard you're getting 3 successes?

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Fire Stance here does not work. It only gives bonus successes, so it is worthless if they can't meet the TN. 

True; I'd misunderstood how Fire Stance worked. Good to know going forward!

[wastevens 21]

3 hours ago, JBento said:

If Guarding is something you find yourself using more often than "very rarely", you're going to be getting Crescent Moon Style. You can totally hit them.

Mm, fair enough; still learning the katas and didn't remember there was one to let you counterattack when guarding.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

31 minutes ago, wastevens said:

Are you assuming that every time you Guard you're getting 3 successes?

With Void 3? **** I do ! 

[wastevens 21]

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

With Void 3? **** I do ! 

So, at Void 3 / Tactics 3, you're looking at about an 80% success on getting to 3 successes, bumping the TN for anyone to hit you to 4.

Assuming you're fighting a Ring 3 / Martial Arts 3 opponent, they'll reach that about 40% of the time.

If you don't have Crescent Moon Style, that's a fight you lose.
If you *have* Crescent Moon Style, then it becomes a question of 'how often do I get at least 3 successes and 1 opportunity on my Guard', which I think is gonna put you in a quandry fairly often of 'I can get a reroll, a success, and an opportunity, or I can get 3 successes' (I mean, sometimes you'll get the success/opportunity face, but it's far from certain).

And this assumes, again, that people *stay* in melee range- if I'm facing that sort of nonsense, and I have to kill you, I back up and start hucking ranged attacks, using Water Stance to maintain distance better.

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

17 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Void points are extremely strong.

The stance itself is a good plan if you are nearing unmasking and a few other things.

Probably not a got to stance, but can come in handy. Most players will want to raise void anyway sooner than later, can't dump it.

This. Void is good for three core reasons:

Your maximum ring rank as you advance is your lowest ring plus your void ring. Meaning you'll get 'stuck' unable to advance anything very quickly if void is also your lowest ring.

Void 2 allows you to pick up and hold a second void point from your disadvantages. Void 3 means you start with 2 per session, not 1. Void points are, as noted, awesome, since Seize The Moment is....not quite as good as +1 ring-of-choice and +1 skill-of-choice for one check, but it's pretty close. They're normally better out of skirmishes, though, since they tend to suit that-one-check-which-wins-the-game (more commonly seen for duels and narrative scenes), rather than just improving your fighting for one round in a skirmish. How much of a priority the ring rank is to acquire is very much a character-build decision - void techniques tend to be higher rank, so that's fine, but a Shujenga is more likely to want it because it powers narrative "spiritual spidey-sense" checks, and I believe the Shinseist Monk's ability specifically revolves around void points.

And, yes, if you've got a decent void ring, being able to be close to compromised and switch to void stance works well. Starting by using Fire Stance for Maximum Damage and then switching to Void to avoid the consequences is not a bad plan.

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 3:01 PM, welldressedgent said:

I realize you can always strike or guard or whatever; but...

I was thinking of the kata that use each element. I have to be in fire stance to use Heartpiercing Strike, right?

And it works poorly against water. My guy faces an enemy in earth stance, prefers to attack with an air kata.

The enemy respond with, I don't know, Iron In The Mountains Style, which will probably fail.

This assumes you and your opponent both know a range of kata. Am I reading these rules right?

Yes. Kata tend to be hardest to resist with their traditional 'worse' element and easier with their traditional 'better'.

The thing is, most characters aren't going to have a huge range of techniques; as a rule you're probably only going to invest in Kata for your 'good' rings  - because having Heartpiercing Strike, for example, is great against an Earth Stance opponent (because it bypasses their normal resistance to critical strikes) but it's still a TN4 Martial Arts check, which is bloody hard. Add in the additional downside that you get Disoriented if you fail, and your opponent's stance is far less important than the fact that unless you have Fire rank 3-4 and a couple of ranks of Martial Arts Melee and/or a void point and/or assistance, it's probably not a good idea to attempt since it'll hurt you more than your opponent.

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:10 AM, welldressedgent said:

Are there any good tactics (not character build) primers? Mostly interested in skirmishes and social for now.

Anything saying "XYZ technique" is essentially dependent on character build. Basically, tactics depend on your own stats and your opponents, but general observations can be made.

• Stance. Aside from technique access, it's mostly about checks. Obviously, being in a stance 'locks' you to that ring both for your action and for any 'resistance' checks that turn (enemy techniques and fitness checks to mitigate critical strikes). It also drives what ring penalties get attached to.
  • Don't ignore the stance bonuses. @wastevens gave a pretty good summary.
    • Fire is good for anything needing lots of bonus successes - in a skirmish, that basically means going for maximum damage - good for putting down tougher opponents who aren't hard to hit. Dealing with the strife can be a problem if your composure is low - either you may need to switch to water stance for a calming breath or two, or retreat into void stance once you get too close. Unmasking is also a possibility, which comes with both bonuses and penalties depending on how you unmask. It's basically the rage-kill-smash bezerker ring - and suits the Matsu bezerker as a default stance to a tee.
    • Earth basically shuts down most dirty tricks. Paired with good armour it makes you hard to hurt, since critical strikes, persistent effects  and conditions are the best way to bypass good armour and high endurance. Good stance for a stereotypical hida defender
    • Air stance is best for not getting hit in the first place. It's especially good for archers, since in addition to a basic TN+1 to hit, there's an extra TN increase easily available from an opportunity spend without using Guard. If You don't have much armour or endurance it's your best  defensive stance.
    • Water does okay with strife management with calming breath but it really dominates a skirmish by using the 'extra' action as manoeuvre. Pair up a weapon with a longer reach than your opponent and the ability to move twice and you shouldn't need someone to explain why you're on to a winner. Not especially honourable and contingent on not running out of space, but advance/spear attack/fall back rinse and repeat is an irritatingly effective skirmish technique.
• The other question is what you need to 'win' - which is dependent on what you're fighting.
  • This mostly boils down to minions vs adversaries.
    • Minions can't normally use generic opportunity techniques - that means, most importantly, no critical strikes. The only way you suffer a critical strike from a minion group is if they incapacitate you first.
      • That means that whilst high endurance and armour remains great, earth stance becomes comparatively pointless since it's making you immune to something which isn't going to happen.
      • By comparison, air stance reduces the odds of getting hit and even if you do get hit means they'll have one less bonus success (which effectively gives you one more point of resistance).
      • Fire stance....depends on the minions and your own weapon. If your wielding a sword against armour ashigaru, then it's not a bad idea since you need a bonus success or two to 'one-hit' a minion. If it's an otsuchi against goblins, then pretty much any hit = a kill, so the bonus successes don't matter (damage doesn't carry over between minions in a group) whilst the strife does, in an extended skirmish.
      • Water Stance - depends on the terrain. If it's a group of, say, 2 guys, it probably doesn't matter, but 4+ minions in a group all with range 0-1 weapons and it should be possible to use movement and terrain such that at least some of them can't contribute assistance to attacking you.
    • Adversaries are every bit as dangerous as you.
      • They've likely got techniques and can certainly land critical strikes. Earth Stance is often a good default (not least because most Bushi Family Schools will start you with Earth 3).
      • They might be using air and guard to be hard to hit themselves, or earth to ignore your techniques, or....who knows?
      • Since they might well have decent armour, the whole 'damage to razor-edged weapons' comes into play - the one time this rule might realistically come up is if you're facing an armoured samurai (for example) and roll  with a wakizashi strike. There's little chance of doing meaningful damage because of the plate armour, but spending  on a critical strike will either wound them or (perhaps even better) reduce the protection from their armour, increasing the damage your friends then do with their attacks.
  • Another element is whether you have allies.
    • Assistance is really powerful. A courtier or shujenga whose martial arts training extends to 'stab them with the pointy end' can still assist, providing essentially +1 ring rank to a friendly bushi engaged with the same opponent, which is quite likely to do as much or more in real terms than trying to do a strike action on their own.
    • Guard is great, allowing you to protect allies The fact that it's only TN1 means even the weakest combat character can do it pretty reliably, and a combination of Air Stance and Guard (making a strike action TN4!) makes it a nightmare for a low-ish conflict rank minion to hit you. Firstly this lets you protect vulnerable allies, but it also allows one character to switch to fire stance, flail away like a demented blender, compromise themselves, and then fall back and catch their breath for a turn or two without having to unmask, then re-engage.
    • Equally, don't forget 'wait' - if someone is playing silly buggers with range, you can always use wait with a trigger of "they come into range". This won't work for someone with a longer weapon, though, and nor will crescent moon stance, but sword-on-sword it's quite useful, and it's a refreshing solution to people trying to use snaring-type tricks to dart in, strike you, immobilise you, and fall back.
  • Finally  whether you have appropriate weapons.
    • This basically boils down to the narrative situation.
      • For being ambushed on the road, you can use whatever you like but you'll probably be in travelling clothes and anything hefty might well be stowed somewhere less accessible.
      • For a battlefield you went to intentionally - remember that regardless of your school's standard equipment, your lord should be prepared to provide some gear. If riding to war, asking for at least ashigaru armour is a courtesy check and not an unreasonably difficult one.
      • In court, it's quite likely that you won't have any non-ceremonial gear, and possibly no wargear. More importantly, nor will your opponents. If everyone's 'armour' is resistance 1 ceremonial robes, then the plan of 'turtle up in earth stance' becomes a lot less useful.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Magnus Grendel

[AtoMaki 1,431]

7 hours ago, wastevens said:

Assuming you're fighting a Ring 3 / Martial Arts 3 opponent, they'll reach that about 40% of the time.

That's not a great chance to be acutely honest here, considering you can ever get a single attack ever per turn.

Tho this ties back to the standard Guard Turtling that is considerably better with the Air Ring. The Void Ring style Strife Attrition Warfare relies on just simply forcing your opponent to do something and suck up the Strife for it, eventually becoming Compromised, while you are smiling at him from under your turtle shell. This is obiously a rather nieche situation, I'm gonna admit that, but in that situation Void Stance is the king. 

28 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Heartpiercing Strike, for example, is great against an Earth Stance opponent (because it bypasses their normal resistance to critical strikes) but it's still a TN4 Martial Arts check, which is bloody hard.

It is not that hard in my experience. I'm seeing 30xp starting characters pulling it reliably with Void shenangians. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by AtoMaki

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

52 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

 It is not that hard in my experience. I'm seeing 30xp starting characters pulling it reliably with Void shenangians. 

No, but not everyone plays a 'seasoned retainer' game by default.

The point I was getting at, more importantly, wasn't that you couldn't pull off a TN4 check, but that any given character will probably only have one or two rings they can consider realistically looking for a TN4 check on.

If fire isn't one of them, it doesn't really matter how good Heartpiercing strike is, or how suited it is to your current opponent.

56 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Tho this ties back to the standard Guard Turtling that is considerably better with the Air Ring. The Void Ring style Strife Attrition Warfare relies on just simply forcing your opponent to do something and suck up the Strife for it, eventually becoming Compromised, while you are smiling at him from under your turtle shell. This is obiously a rather nieche situation, I'm gonna admit that, but in that situation Void Stance is the king. 

This.

Crescent Moon aside, guard only works if you're buying time for something important to happen. In a duel (not that you can guard in a duel) running out the strife clock means a finishing blow and missing-extremity-time. In a skirmish....your opponent being compromised isn't too big a deal, especially if there's more than one opponent and the compromised foe can back off for a breather. If either (1) you have a militarily competent Akodo or Hida friend who will be pummelling your opponent whilst they're hopefully failing to do the same to you, or (2) you have the Rising Blade iaijutsu cut which delivers an automatic critical to a compromised target, then, yeah, I get it. 

[JBento 229]

@Magnus Grendel Um, I'm pretty sure Void points don't reset per session. Where does this say?

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

Apologies. There was a degree of per-session reset in the beta, but it's not there anymore.