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Audacious balance: Should we try to balance generics out first? (now that the game has existed for a while)

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1 minute ago, Gilarius said:

Two separate issues: 'very dice dependent' is simply how a list behaves when its primary defence or offence is naked dice. A single focus token when being shot at multiple times per turn and also shooting means that most of those dice are unmodified. This is not a criticism of the ships, just an observation. It applies to quite a few ships and is the opposite to big, beefy ships like decimators.

This brings me onto my 2nd point, and the main reason why I am against increasing the baseline to 5 X-wings or 6 Interceptors: individual games take longer to get a result. Aces will take even longer manoeuvring before engaging, because they need the opponent to mess up their positioning otherwise their delicate ships will explode. This encourages very slow play with only a few turns of combat. Addionally, big fat ships like decimators will need further cost cuts or they will die far too fast. This means that the whole game needs every cost changed/rebalanced instead of a handful being adjusted to match the current baseline. A simple trial, to see if I'm right about time, would be to play games with 210 or 220 points instead of 200.

Now, if you want to recost everything, go ahead and playtest it. Report back, just don't expect any sort of consensus on points beforehand!

I played a lot of 1.0 at 120 and 125 points. No, the average time increases by about 5 minutes, its not linear. And this is for 125 points, which would be 250 points in 2.0, much higher than the 220 you're suggesting. So on that point, I think its safe to say I've had table data and experience. 

You can also take into account play time for 5 Xwing with FAA from 1.0. I don't think time generally was a big issue. For Howl Swarm, indeed it was. 

The Decimator probably does need to go down in points anyway. But the point here is also to encourage more ships, more flying as opposed to more 2 ship combo. 

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Gonna throw out another audacious position: Consider that I'm easily considering an 18-19 point bid when I'm playing Init6 Vader Soontir Lambda and I think it'd be likely better than having the Init1 Tie Fighter for bumps and bulk. I'd hesitatingly argue that maybe the generic tie fighter by itself is overcosted. Yet it seems about right. 
People have been discussing before that maybe more cost should be baked into Howlrunner, but she's already freakishly high in cost compared to any other tie. Howl swarm doesn't seem to be doing that well right now though, but dunno if that's just from player fatigue of the archetype. 

 

Maybe a better thing to complain about is how generally non-useful people find a single tie fighter or a Z or a Torrent. (Although I was rather partial to the 1.0 list with Poe/Miranda Y-TLT Y-TLT and one Z.) 

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Posted (edited)

Okay. I need to see something else at the top of the forum. 

--

What do you think of balance and points as of now? 

I think its generally quite good balance wise. Very happy with the diversity. 

I still think I6 has proven to be exceptionally powerful and in most cases, the I6s could still stand to gain 2 points or so, and they'd still be easy choices during list building. 

Sadly I think that the 23 pt Tie is no longer very good as a baseline: generally I think the generic tie should go down to 22. I don't find Howl swarm that strong anymore either. And a single or double tie? yikes. Awful. The named ties at I3 and I4 probably all could go down quite a few points, somewhere around 3 points. 

I think the days of the Tie Fighter being a baseline for balance is now over. FFG during 1.0 constantly upped the power level of things until Howl swarm was no longer numerically the top contender. Yet surprise, the Howl Swarm hasn't changed one bit since Wave1 1.0 three or so years ago. These ships are getting to be obsolete. 

The game as a whole reflects this upward power correction in 2.0. Most other things seem well balanced, so either one would have to consider bumping up many other pilots, or dropping the Tie Fighter down. 

Tie FOs still don't seem very great, i never want to take them en masse cuz they're just not great for swarm. I'll see about the named pilots, but I just find them really boring, they die fast and their abilities are selfish and not very synergistic. Makes for boring list building. 

Ewing's should be safe at 50points, down 2. 4x in a list really isn't that bad. 

Arcs I feel should go down to 41. 

Torrents, bleh. Down to 24. 

Scum Zs at this minute don't have any useful illicits, either give them better illicits, or also should be 23 like Rebel Z. 

Does anyone really play the Quadhumper anymore? Or are we fatigued about that weird thing?

Generally most of the generics don't seem to be good value. 

Hyenas are generally overpriced, Bombardment and 32C especially easily by 3-4 points. 

Generic Silencers definitely do not impress me. Down 3 points to 48? Test Pilot I4 down to say 52-53? 

Naboo at 34 seems pretty decent. This one was about right. The handmaidens at 44 seem... very expensive... I just don't want to take them ever. So, wild guess, around 36? 

---

I'm really happy with the nerfing of I5 rebel beef because it makes I4 lists and I2, I1 lists more a lot more viable. BBBBHwk/BBBBAttShuttle should be strong lists, yet they were not last meta due to this. Nowadays, I'd feel more confident to take these lists. 

You should try it too. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Is it better to drop points, or put up the cost of named/higher initiative pilots.

I think there are a few cases where small point drops can work, such as a ship chassis/upgrade that sees no play during a sixth month period, that's a good case for a 1-2 point drop that no one will complain about.

But if there are 1 or 2 pilots being used from that chassis that are going up in price, I can see why you wouldn't price down the lower Initiative pilots, as they become comparatively better value than they were anyway.

I think if a pilot see no play for 12 months regardless of the usage of any other pilots using the same ship that ship should also drop a point or two.

 

 

This is a slow and iterative process, but slow progress towards valance and the viability of as many ships, thus as many ship archetypes can only be a good thing.

 

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4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think its generally quite good balance wise. Very happy with the diversity.

Does anyone really play the Quadhumper anymore? Or are we fatigued about that weird thing?

If there's a problem in current balance, it's that Scum got hit very hard in the first nerf wave in Jaunary, and were probably over-nerfed.  Now, they needed nerfs, but got hit too hard.  Quadjumper at 28 was very potent, but a +4 point nerf was too much.

I'd probably roll back a lot of that round of Scum nerfs, make them less extreme.  Scum as a faction has been pretty down since then...

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Tie FOs still don't seem very great, i never want to take them en masse cuz they're just not great for swarm. I'll see about the named pilots, but I just find them really boring, they die fast and their abilities are selfish and not very synergistic. Makes for boring list building.

TIE/fo isn't due to the TIE/fo being weak.  Spam list maybe isn't the best, but 26 points for one is pretty comparable to the 25 for a Torrent, and is really solid filler.  The issue is the TIE/sf at 32 crowds it out.  Zeta Survivor is so dang good that it doesn't make sense to fly an Epsilon Cadet.

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6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Sadly I think that the 23 pt Tie is no longer very good as a baseline: generally I think the generic tie should go down to 22. I don't find Howl swarm that strong anymore either. And a single or double tie? yikes. Awful. The named ties at I3 and I4 probably all could go down quite a few points, somewhere around 3 points. 

I think the days of the Tie Fighter being a baseline for balance is now over. FFG during 1.0 constantly upped the power level of things until Howl swarm was no longer numerically the top contender. Yet surprise, the Howl Swarm hasn't changed one bit since Wave1 1.0 three or so years ago. These ships are getting to be obsolete. 

The game as a whole reflects this upward power correction in 2.0. Most other things seem well balanced, so either one would have to consider bumping up many other pilots, or dropping the Tie Fighter down.

 

Objectively, what is the 23pt TIE failing to compare favorably to?  Obviously, my experience is skewed because my meta has 2 fantastic TIE Swarm players, but as a completely serious question, what is it not measuring up to?  Is the TIE the problem, or the thing it is failing to measure up to the problem? 

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Tie FOs still don't seem very great, i never want to take them en masse cuz they're just not great for swarm. I'll see about the named pilots, but I just find them really boring, they die fast and their abilities are selfish and not very synergistic. Makes for boring list building.

 

I mean, TIE FO and SF generics are making cuts pretty regularly and 26pts for that dial combined with 4hp and AGL 3 is really solid.  Just because they don't meet your preference for play doesn't mean they're bad or in  need of a fix. 

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ewing's should be safe at 50points, down 2. 4x in a list really isn't that bad.

 

Not sold on this.  vs X-Wing: +1 AGL, better dial, addition of evade action and ship ability for long range locks.  Nothing about that seems off for 52.  Considering that 4x T-70 is a thing and 4 E-Wings would be just as powerful if not more (-1 hp, but +1 die, everyone is double modded on initial engage, better ability to hard roll it's way out of bad situations), I see no reason to drop below 51.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Arcs I feel should go down to 41. 

Torrents, bleh. Down to 24.

 

Are we on a different plane of existence?  Are there no Sinker swarms in your reality?  That list is beefy AF, and in no way should any of those generics EVER drop.  If anything, they're both undercosted by a point.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Scum Zs at this minute don't have any useful illicits, either give them better illicits, or also should be 23 like Rebel Z. 

Does anyone really play the Quadhumper anymore? Or are we fatigued about that weird thing?

 

Scum Z's and Quads have a lot of access to buffs (Drea reroll, tractor effects, etc) that their Rebel equivalent doesn't.  I'd also say Quadjumpers are fine.  Quadjumpers SHOULD be a specific answer to a specific question.  They remove too much of the core engagement of the game i.e. actually getting to move your ships without your opponent telling you where your ship is.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hyenas are generally overpriced, Bombardment and 32C especially easily by 3-4 points.

 

Please tell me any of my opponents that you think my Hyena's should be cheaper and make sure to let me know if you can get out the entire statement without them bursting with laughter or looking at you like you just said the world was flat.  32C is overpriced, but the rest are fine.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Naboo at 34 seems pretty decent. This one was about right. The handmaidens at 44 seem... very expensive... I just don't want to take them ever. So, wild guess, around 36?

 

"I want a way for Republic aces to be harder to kill cheaper" -literally no one...ever. 

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Generic Silencers definitely do not impress me. Down 3 points to 48? Test Pilot I4 down to say 52-53?

 

?  Double repo 3 ATK, 3 AGL, 6hp ship for 48?  Seriously?  No

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh, and regent should really go up. I play it, I love my Jedi, but yeah. 

R2 up to 6 points on Agi2, and 8pts on Agi3. 

 

Meh, ace lists can triage points more easily than generics.  Go for it on upping the points, but it won't change much and, in all honestly, regen doesn't adversely change as many games as most think.  It's at best annoying and the fact that we're really only seeing regular R2 use out of republic, despite 2 other factions having access, is a strong indicator that it's fine as is and that, short of a deliberately punitive increase, it will continue to see play with that archetype.

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Posted (edited)

I'm in the "higher I should cost more in general" camp

Being able to move last and especially shoot first is a MASSIVE advantage

Ofc, cost should scale based on ship chassis. A higher I Interceptor/Silencer/amazing movement ship should pay more for higher Initiative than a flying brick like the Lambda or most of the chunky, medium base ships. I feel the later are already fairly priced, and it's more certain that small based aces causing problems overall. 

Don't really wanna reduce cost of generics outside maybe the I 3 guys. Don't want to flood the table with TOO many ships. 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
On 6/19/2019 at 7:11 AM, gamblertuba said:

I'm pretty sure 2B3X is too strong.

I think this hits at the heart of the matter.  The fundamental assumption that everything should be costed based on a single-type swarm is not one with which I agree.  As a silly example, I actually have played 4x Lambdas, and they are awful.  Does this mean that they need to come down enough to let five or six on a list?  Or does it just mean they're better-suited to multi-type lists? 

I'm not saying none of these ships should come down; only that basing their price on swarm performance only makes sense for those that are best flown in swarms.

Edited by JJ48

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11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Sadly I think that the 23 pt Tie is no longer very good as a baseline: generally I think the generic tie should go down to 22.

I'd be fine with 22 point baseline TIE/ln only if Howlrunner went up 3ish points.

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Tie FOs still don't seem very great, i never want to take them en masse cuz they're just not great for swarm. I'll see about the named pilots, but I just find them really boring, they die fast and their abilities are selfish and not very synergistic.

The lack of synergy is what hurts the TIE/fo's, as you say. They don't have a Howl equivalent to really run a swarm. And with minor exception, you really should just take a TIE/sf for better time on target.

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ewing's should be safe at 50points, down 2. 4x in a list really isn't that bad. 

I am cautious on lowering the points on all of the 3 green/red die ships with 6ish health. The E-wing, TIE/d, TIE/vn, and IG-2000 can get lowered, but they should do it slowly. The Knave just dropped to 52, so let's give it a moment to see if it can slot in anywhere. If it was 51 points, that should be fine, but I don't want 4 E-wings rolling around with double mods.

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Arcs I feel should go down to 41. Torrents, bleh. Down to 24. 

Nope. 3 ARCs and a Jedi is still good, and Sinker swarm is great.

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Scum Zs at this minute don't have any useful illicits, either give them better illicits, or also should be 23 like Rebel Z. Does anyone really play the Quadhumper anymore?

Z95s should have same pricing. Taking an illicit would up their cost anyway. Spacetug could go down a point or so, but the named ones need adjustment as well. Most Scum generics needs adjustment.

As for CIS, 32C is little overcosted, but most of the bombers are fine.

Handmaidens could probably go down a hair, but as they have a great ability, I encourage the slow drop of points.

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9 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I was mostly with you @Blail Blerg until you said Arcs should be 41 points.  I think you're undervaluing the rear arc by quite a bit.  And medium base is a feature for low initiative blockers.

Init 5 and 6 are still too cheap overall.  Hit em again.

As for Regen, give it the Luke Gunner treatment.

Have you actually played Arcs? I've played 4 arcs, 3 arcs + jedi, and I think once or two with just Wolffe. 

One arc, is okay. But when you start multiplying overcost (not to mention the medium bases are freaking awful in mass) and that their BR is red and no linked, they're AWFUL. 

I stand by it, down to 41.

Also its down 1 darn point. They're definitely not super strong now. 

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

TIE/fo isn't due to the TIE/fo being weak.  Spam list maybe isn't the best, but 26 points for one is pretty comparable to the 25 for a Torrent, and is really solid filler.  The issue is the TIE/sf at 32 crowds it out.  Zeta Survivor is so dang good that it doesn't make sense to fly an Epsilon Cadet.

Considering i HATE the torrent at 25 points, I would never shell for a PS1 Tie FO at 26. No and generally, two tie Fos aren't worth 26x2. They aren't worth near Nien Numb. 

7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Objectively, what is the 23pt TIE failing to compare favorably to?  Obviously, my experience is skewed because my meta has 2 fantastic TIE Swarm players, but as a completely serious question, what is it not measuring up to?  Is the TIE the problem, or the thing it is failing to measure up to the problem? 

Are they REALLY fantastic? Like how fantastic? Are they nearly unbeaten in their swarm play and tournament winners? Every time I've seen tie swarm played its not been fantastic. And its not really appearing in tournament winners anymore it seems. Also just pure fatigue. Its kind of something that people have experienced and got bored with. 

7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Are we on a different plane of existence?  Are there no Sinker swarms in your reality?  That list is beefy AF, and in no way should any of those generics EVER drop.  If anything, they're both undercosted by a point.

We're totally on a different place of existence. You kidding? They're awful. Yes Sinker swarm has been pretty good, but I think its easily beatable by other types of lists. I don't know what kind of crazy things you think are strong, but obviously not any thing I think is effective against what I think are strong lists. 

 

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I think you guys generally overvalue generics. As someone who plays a lot of generics and bumps very well against high level lists, the lack of options and the strength of double mods and token stacks in the upper Inits makes more bodies exceptionally hard to use. None of these lists worry me when I play my high Init, or aces or beefier large ship lists. 

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2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Nope. 3 ARCs and a Jedi is still good,

This list is flogging awful imo. The multi medium bases. And what Jedi are you gonna get in there? Obiwan at best? Anakin, Ric + X will chew that for breakfast. 

And no bid either. 

Go down to an I4 Jedi? Whoooo, easy outfly with a majority of competitive lists with even an I5. 

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13 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Are they REALLY fantastic? Like how fantastic? Are they nearly unbeaten in their swarm play and tournament winners? Every time I've seen tie swarm played its not been fantastic. And its not really appearing in tournament winners anymore it seems. Also just pure fatigue. Its kind of something that people have experienced and got bored with. 

 

Yes, the Atlanta Hyperspace trial was won a by a TIE Swarm player that's going to worlds.  He was trained by another TIE swarm player that piloted crack swarms and won store champs back in 1.0.  The atlanta system open had a TIE swarm just short of making the cut in extended in a field of 176 players.  Yes, there are fantastic TIE swarm players in Atlanta.

13 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think you guys generally overvalue generics. As someone who plays a lot of generics and bumps very well against high level lists, the lack of options and the strength of double mods and token stacks in the upper Inits makes more bodies exceptionally hard to use. None of these lists worry me when I play my high Init, or aces or beefier large ship lists. 

 

I made a list with 1 uniquie pilot, the Baktoid Prototype, and six generics that I was so confident in, I gave the list to someone who doesn't play CIS and he was the top placing CIS player at Gencon.  High initiative, aces and beefy large ships do not concern me.

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Posted (edited)

I see 104th Arcs as pretty perfectly priced (the 7th fleet? No.) If they're ever "underperforming", I'd wager it'd be more the fault of something like ye-ole-rebel-beef being too dumb rather than Arcs being bad.

The medium base is a definite detriment (being fatter has a few upsides, but the 1st Ed Arcs were immersurably more manueverable and harder to hit simply due to having smaller bases), but that's why they're 42 points.

They're a 9 health chunk with an incredibly underappreciated auxillary arc (which actually does **** this edition without needing r3a2 gunner!). That's a good deal at their cost!

Mind you, I'm talking about 104ths, Sinker, Wolfe, and Norra. The other rebels are pretty laughably overcosted, and I think Oddball should cost the same as Wolfe (never more, doth qouth the fickle). 

Still, of the available generics, Arcs are incredibly solid and I'm happy that the most beautiful ship in the game is worthy of respect on the table top

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

I'd be fine with 22 point baseline TIE/ln only if Howlrunner went up 3ish points.

The lack of synergy is what hurts the TIE/fo's, as you say. They don't have a Howl equivalent to really run a swarm. And with minor exception, you really should just take a TIE/sf for better time on target.

I am cautious on lowering the points on all of the 3 green/red die ships with 6ish health. The E-wing, TIE/d, TIE/vn, and IG-2000 can get lowered, but they should do it slowly. The Knave just dropped to 52, so let's give it a moment to see if it can slot in anywhere. If it was 51 points, that should be fine, but I don't want 4 E-wings rolling around with double mods.

Nope. 3 ARCs and a Jedi is still good, and Sinker swarm is great.

Z95s should have same pricing. Taking an illicit would up their cost anyway. Spacetug could go down a point or so, but the named ones need adjustment as well. Most Scum generics needs adjustment.

As for CIS, 32C is little overcosted, but most of the bombers are fine.

Handmaidens could probably go down a hair, but as they have a great ability, I encourage the slow drop of points.

Lok Revenants needed to go up, double tapping was just too strong with rerolls. z-95s are not seeing much play for scum and the only mining guild tie that is, is Seevor. Really does feel like the scum generics in general need help to get to the table. Jakku Gunrunner at 32pts is not getting used at all. If Scum got a new illicit that was meaningful, that would really help (contraband cybernetics dropping from 6 to 3pts was a good start). What was the Y-Wing pilot that gives generics rerolls? Drea... Its been nerfed and isnt seeing play at all... would be good to see a scummy swarmy list with drea plus Z-95s/mining guild ties be competitive. Generic starvipers esp Black Sun Assassin is seeing play now which is great... Zealous Recruits are popping up as well but other scum generics, not so much.

Gunrunners are annoying to play against i know but i miss them as filler ship for scum. 2-3 ship lists seem to have moved up in favour of 4 ship squads, perhaps a reflection of the game overall and not just scum?

 

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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It woud be nice if ffg drop some points from tie fighters.

I don' t really know what is the point cost at which you can start to consider to play a tie fighter alone as a filler....

Maybe 1 or 2 points.... but i'm not shure i would use it also with this point reduction

Maybe it is just a ship not designed to be a filler....

But it's sad for imperial players chose to bid instead of putting an extra t.f. because it doesn't worth it.

Maybe a title or a config  could help to make it become a good filler

 

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2 hours ago, Manolox said:

It woud be nice if ffg drop some points from tie fighters.

I don' t really know what is the point cost at which you can start to consider to play a tie fighter alone as a filler....

Maybe 1 or 2 points.... but i'm not shure i would use it also with this point reduction

Maybe it is just a ship not designed to be a filler....

But it's sad for imperial players chose to bid instead of putting an extra t.f. because it doesn't worth it.

Maybe a title or a config  could help to make it become a good filler

 

Exactly all of this. 

One day hopefully. I think it needs some titles. 

I'd like to see some squadron/wingmen titles that give you bonuses when flying solo or as a close-range wingman to another similar ship. 

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10 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Lok Revenants needed to go up, double tapping was just too strong with rerolls. z-95s are not seeing much play for scum and the only mining guild tie that is, is Seevor. Really does feel like the scum generics in general need help to get to the table. Jakku Gunrunner at 32pts is not getting used at all. If Scum got a new illicit that was meaningful, that would really help (contraband cybernetics dropping from 6 to 3pts was a good start). What was the Y-Wing pilot that gives generics rerolls? Drea... Its been nerfed and isnt seeing play at all... would be good to see a scummy swarmy list with drea plus Z-95s/mining guild ties be competitive. Generic starvipers esp Black Sun Assassin is seeing play now which is great... Zealous Recruits are popping up as well but other scum generics, not so much

The problem with the Lok's was really not the pilot cost, but the combo of Lok's going down, VTG getting far too cheap, and turrets going down. You could have adjusted VTG and turrets and fixed the problem. And really they were only strong with Drea's rerolls as you say, but all four elements went up while the Lok's probably didn't need to do so.

StarVipers not named Guri and Fangs not named Fenn or Old T need minor points adjustments. Maybe a point down on all to test the waters. I3 StarVipers are the same cost as I4 Phantoms right now which seems off. Also, I4 Fangs cost 2 points more than Sigmas as well, and cost the same a the I4 T70 which strikes me as off as well.

15 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This list is flogging awful imo. The multi medium bases. And what Jedi are you gonna get in there? Obiwan at best? Anakin, Ric + X will chew that for breakfast

You say "Obi-Wan at best" as if that is a bad thing. Obi is the best Jedi around, who also got cheaper even with 7b. You can fit Mace or Obi with Sense (and optionally 7B if that floats your boat) which is great versus aces like Anakin or Ric. The list is not great versus everything, but I see that as a positive sign of the meta. I don't want lists like Quad Phantoms or Rebel Beef that can take all comers.

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