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StriderZessei

Tricky Target and Barrel Roll

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

No. The vessel doesn't become 1 Silhouette smaller, the attacker just treats it that way for targeting it.

Is this a RAI vs. RAW thing? Because RAW for Tricky Target says the ship is treated 1 silhouette smaller when attacked, but doesn't explicitly say how to apply that silhouette reduction (i.e., it doesn't specifically mention applying the silhouette reduction solely to being shot at, just to reduce silhouette by one, down to zero.) One could argue that since it happens during the same phase, and both involve flying evasively, the two talents could have some synergy.

Edited by StriderZessei

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5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Is this a RAI vs. RAW thing? Because RAW for Tricky Target says the ship is treated 1 silhouette smaller when attacked, but doesn't explicitly say how to apply that silhouette reduction (i.e., it doesn't specifically mention applying the silhouette reduction solely to being shot at, just to reduce silhouette by one, down to zero.) One could argue that since it happens during the same phase, and both involve flying evasively, the two talents could have some synergy.

You can argue anything you like, but the answer I gave is the RAW, There were previous examples of where Tricky Target does not allow for things that the normal Silhouette of the vehicle does not allow, but no new attempt to find rules holes has been done with Barrel Roll. If you think you've found a rules hole you want to exploit, then go for it.

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Tricky Target says that the attacker treats the vehicle as being 1 Silhouette lower for combat checks, not that the vehicle becomes 1 Silhouette lower.

Barrel Roll requires the vehicle to actually be Silhouette 3 or lower.

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Just now, HappyDaze said:

You can argue anything you like, but the answer I gave is the RAW, There were previous examples of where Tricky Target does not allow for things that the normal Silhouette of the vehicle does not allow, but no new attempt to find rules holes has been done with Barrel Roll. If you think you've found a rules hole you want to exploit, then go for it.

No need to be so acerbic; just asking for a clarification.

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Just now, salamar_dree said:

Tricky Target says that the attacker treats the vehicle as being 1 Silhouette lower for combat checks, not that the vehicle becomes 1 Silhouette lower.

Barrel Roll requires the vehicle to actually be Silhouette 3 or lower.

That I can get my head around. Thanks

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Just now, HappyDaze said:

That answer was no different from what I offered to you other than it had a higher word count.

While also trying to impugn my character.

4 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

Tricky Target says that the attacker treats the vehicle as being 1 Silhouette lower for combat checks, not that the vehicle becomes 1 Silhouette lower.

Barrel Roll requires the vehicle to actually be Silhouette 3 or lower.

Actually, looking at the talent, it just reads (In the EotE core,) "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0."

Nothing specifically referring to who is counting it as such, nor limiting its implications solely to being attacked; simply that it's triggered by the attack.

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47 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Actually, looking at the talent, it just reads (In the EotE core,) "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0."

Nothing specifically referring to who is counting it as such, nor limiting its implications solely to being attacked; simply that it's triggered by the attack.

Consider that Tricky Target does not make the port/starboard Defense of a Sil 5 (treated as Sil4) inapplicable nor does it change the system critical the vessel will suffer (Sil 4 results differ from Sil 5 results).

Tricky Target really only applies when determining the Difficulty of Sihouette-based targetting.

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1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Consider that Tricky Target does not make the port/starboard Defense of a Sil 5 (treated as Sil4) inapplicable nor does it change the system critical the vessel will suffer (Sil 4 results differ from Sil 5 results).

Tricky Target really only applies when determining the Difficulty of Sihouette-based targetting.

Hmm. Good point.

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I think that to be able to perform a barrel roll in a Sil 4 or larger ship, you would need to have the "Supreme Pride And Joy" talent from the Ship Captain Universal tree in 'Dawn of Rebellion.' To paraphrase: once per session, SP&J allows you to reduce the ship's silhouette by 2 to a minimum of 0 for the remainder of the round and the next round. I agree with HappyDaze about "Tricky Target." In my mind it pretty clearly says that the silhouette change only applies to attack rolls targeting your ship. "Supreme Pride and Joy" not only explicity says that it reduces the ship's silhouette, but it says that it lasts for the remainder of the round as well as the next round. That means it can be used during any part of your turn; actions, maneuvers or incidentals - including executing a barrel roll. It'll cost you 80 xp plus the buy-in price for the spec, so it's not exactly a cheap road to take just to be able to barrel roll in your Sil 4 ship, but if you feel that it's worth it, it is possible, lol!

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11 hours ago, ImperatorRegnum said:

I think that to be able to perform a barrel roll in a Sil 4 or larger ship, you would need to have the "Supreme Pride And Joy" talent from the Ship Captain Universal tree in 'Dawn of Rebellion.' To paraphrase: once per session, SP&J allows you to reduce the ship's silhouette by 2 to a minimum of 0 for the remainder of the round and the next round. I agree with HappyDaze about "Tricky Target." In my mind it pretty clearly says that the silhouette change only applies to attack rolls targeting your ship. "Supreme Pride and Joy" not only explicity says that it reduces the ship's silhouette, but it says that it lasts for the remainder of the round as well as the next round. That means it can be used during any part of your turn; actions, maneuvers or incidentals - including executing a barrel roll. It'll cost you 80 xp plus the buy-in price for the spec, so it's not exactly a cheap road to take just to be able to barrel roll in your Sil 4 ship, but if you feel that it's worth it, it is possible, lol!

I hate to sound like a rules lawyer, but both only say to 'reduce the ship's silhouette', with no terms or conditions as to HOW.

Now I get that upgrades that reduce a ship's silhouette (Shadowpaint, or whatever it's called) don't make it smaller, but to say one talent that reduces silhouette WOULD allow it, but another talent WOULDN'T, feels incongruous to me, when both just say to reduce silhouette.

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13 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I hate to sound like a rules lawyer, but both only say to 'reduce the ship's silhouette', with no terms or conditions as to HOW.

Now I get that upgrades that reduce a ship's silhouette (Shadowpaint, or whatever it's called) don't make it smaller, but to say one talent that reduces silhouette WOULD allow it, but another talent WOULDN'T, feels incongruous to me, when both just say to reduce silhouette.

It ultimately boils down to how the full text of each talent is written in the chapter that goes into detail on each of the talents.  In the case of Tricky Target and Supreme Pride & Joy, the silhouette reduction takes place under vaguely similar but notably different circumstances.

Tricky Target only takes affect when the opponent is targeting the ship in question, and only to establish the difficulty of the attacker's combat check.  The ship itself remains whatever silhouette it is normally for all other purposes.

With Supreme Pride & Joy, it says the silhouette reduction only applies for purposes of combat and maneuvers for the duration, but that it's otherwise the same silhouette the ship would normally be for any other purpose.

Personally, I'd probably allow Barrel Roll in tandem with Supreme Pride & Joy, because SP&J allows the pilot of the ship to treat it as being smaller for combat purposes, and Barrel Roll is by definition a combat effect.  Tricky Target is much more focused, and additionally is a Passive talent that requires no effort on the pilot's part; it just happens automatically so long as that character is at the controls of the targeted ship, so I wouldn't allow Tricky Target to qualify a ship for Barrel Roll.

Granted, you can always ask the devs, either through the customer service process, or as the Order 66 guys are doing a show about Rise of the Separatists, you can put this question in the thread that DarthGM started and maybe get a dev answer that way.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Personally, I'd probably allow Barrel Roll in tandem with Supreme Pride & Joy, because SP&J allows the pilot of the ship to treat it as being smaller for combat purposes, and Barrel Roll is by definition a combat effect.  Tricky Target is much more focused, and additionally is a Passive talent that requires no effort on the pilot's part; it just happens automatically so long as that character is at the controls of the targeted ship, so I wouldn't allow Tricky Target to qualify a ship for Barrel Roll.

Even though both talents are basically worded the same, and the fact that Barell Roll, narratively, is an extension of being a Tricky Target?

The timing of this game is drastically less clear than in X-Wing, so if one were to define the timing of Tricky Target (when being attacked) with that of Barrel Roll (calculating the damage of said attack,) it seems to all fall under the same phase.

Edited by StriderZessei

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1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

Even though both talents are basically worded the same, and the fact that Barell Roll, narratively, is an extension of being a Tricky Target?

As I noted above, they're NOT worded the same.  The full text on both talents makes a clear notation that while similar in theme, they are very different in effects.

Frankly, it seems like you keep fishing for answers you're not getting until you get one you like.  So at this point, I'd say just go ahead and ask the FFG devs through the two means I suggested.  And if you don't like their answer because it doesn't match what you want it to be, then go ahead and make a house rule, but accept that it's a house rule and not within the intent or spirit of the rules as listed.

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2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

As I noted above, they're NOT worded the same.  The full text on both talents makes a clear notation that while similar in theme, they are very different in effects.

Frankly, it seems like you keep fishing for answers you're not getting until you get one you like.  So at this point, I'd say just go ahead and ask the FFG devs through the two means I suggested.  And if you don't like their answer because it doesn't match what you want it to be, then go ahead and make a house rule, but accept that it's a house rule and not within the intent or spirit of the rules as listed.

The full wording of Tricky Target is: "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0." It doesn't explicitly say what for. 

P&J says it's lowered "only for purposes of combat and movement, it does not physically reduce the size of the vehicle." 

Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, but I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to explain to my Smuggler Pilot PC why he's going to have to buy into the Clone Pilot and Ship's Captain trees just to do what he sees Han doing in the movies: a fairly simple maneuver in a mid-sized freighter.

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2 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

The full wording of Tricky Target is: "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0." It doesn't explicitly say what for. 

"The attacking pilot, not the targeted pilot, counts the ship as 1 silhouette lower. As the targeted pilot still counts it as silhouette 4, barrel roll is a no go" ... there is the explanation for the player.

If you want to house rule it, I did see one I liked: A player may use barrel roll for a silhouette 4 ship by suffering 3 system strain AND 3 personal strain. 

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8 hours ago, Randy G said:

Id you want to house rule it, I did see one I liked: A player may use barrel roll for a silhouette 4 ship by suffering 3 system strain AND 3 personal strain

GMPhil's Snap Role, right? I do like that, because then adversarial fighters can use it against the PCs.

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11 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

The full wording of Tricky Target is: "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0." It doesn't explicitly say what for. 

P&J says it's lowered "only for purposes of combat and movement, it does not physically reduce the size of the vehicle." 

Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, but I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to explain to my Smuggler Pilot PC why he's going to have to buy into the Clone Pilot and Ship's Captain trees just to do what he sees Han doing in the movies: a fairly simple maneuver in a mid-sized freighter.

You could say that what Han is doing in the movies is taking an "Evasive Maneuvers" maneuver. While realistically he is doing a barrel roll, mechanically you could say that the "Barrel Roll" talent is a different move that has the same effect mechanically speaking. It doesn't have to be a literal barrel roll, it could be any kind of specialized maneuver that achieves the desired outcome - reducing incoming damage.

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5 hours ago, ImperatorRegnum said:

You could say that what Han is doing in the movies is taking an "Evasive Maneuvers" maneuver. While realistically he is doing a barrel roll, mechanically you could say that the "Barrel Roll" talent is a different move that has the same effect mechanically speaking. It doesn't have to be a literal barrel roll, it could be any kind of specialized maneuver that achieves the desired outcome - reducing incoming damage.

Yes,  let's not take Barrel Roll literally since it can be used when piloting an AT-ST.

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While I would normally say that the two don't work together to allow a sil 4 ship to barrel roll, looking at the combat rules I think the wording allows it depending on the GMs interpretation

EotE pg 234, Perform a combat check with vehicle weapons
step 1: Attack declared on ship piloted by a character with tricky target and barrel roll.
step 2: Build the dice pool.  Tricky target makes the targeted ship one size less at this point.
step 3: Pool results and deal damage.
step 4: Advantage/Triumph
step 5: Threat/Despair
step 6: Reduce damage, apply hull trauma and critical hits.

Barrel roll would fall somewhere between step 3 and 6.  Tricky target's full wording is "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0."  If it applies to the entire attack action being taken against the target, then Barrel Roll would be allowed since a sil 4 ship would still be counted as a sil 3 ship during that attack action.  If tricky target only applies only during step 2, then barrel roll would not be a valid option for a sil 4 ship.

To me the question would be could a regular sil 3 ship use barrel roll in any other situation besides an attack against it?  If so, then I wouldn't allow the two to combine.  If barrel roll only worked against an attack then I think SZ has a case.

I doubt it's RAI, but I think it can be interpreted as RAW.

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On 6/21/2019 at 9:03 PM, Ahrimon said:

While I would normally say that the two don't work together to allow a sil 4 ship to barrel roll, looking at the combat rules I think the wording allows it depending on the GMs interpretation

EotE pg 234, Perform a combat check with vehicle weapons
step 1: Attack declared on ship piloted by a character with tricky target and barrel roll.
step 2: Build the dice pool.  Tricky target makes the targeted ship one size less at this point.
step 3: Pool results and deal damage.
step 4: Advantage/Triumph
step 5: Threat/Despair
step 6: Reduce damage, apply hull trauma and critical hits.

Barrel roll would fall somewhere between step 3 and 6.  Tricky target's full wording is "Any vehicle the character pilots counts as having a silhouette one lower than normal when being attacked, to a minimum of 0."  If it applies to the entire attack action being taken against the target, then Barrel Roll would be allowed since a sil 4 ship would still be counted as a sil 3 ship during that attack action.  If tricky target only applies only during step 2, then barrel roll would not be a valid option for a sil 4 ship.

To me the question would be could a regular sil 3 ship use barrel roll in any other situation besides an attack against it?  If so, then I wouldn't allow the two to combine.  If barrel roll only worked against an attack then I think SZ has a case.

I doubt it's RAI, but I think it can be interpreted as RAW.

Nope because the Tricky Target talent only comes into effect when the target in question is being attacked, and then only treats the ship as smaller for purposes of targeting it. It doesn’t actually change its Silhouette physically. Similarly, with Supreme Pride and Joy, the talent doesn’t physically change the ship’s silhouette, but it does allow the pilot to treat it as such for piloting and pilot only maneuvers for the remainder of the round and the next round, but not for being targeted by other craft. Both talents allow the ship to be treated as smaller in silhouette, but each does so for different purposes, and different effects and outcomes.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/21/2019 at 4:13 AM, HappyDaze said:

Yes,  let's not take Barrel Roll literally since it can be used when piloting an AT-ST.

A lot of talents in this game have names that aren't meant to be taken super literally. For example "Bad Motivator" can be used on 'any device;' it doesn't have to work only on droids even if the bad motivator line was used in reference to a droid in the movie. Most of the talents' names are just for flavour.

Edited by ImperatorRegnum

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