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1 hour ago, Force Majeure said:

I think we'll be lucky to get 4 in a list. I'm anticipating them to start at 45 points on the low end up to 60 for Padme or Ric Olie.

I haven't bought any Republic ships (Separatist player), but this might be the one that lures me in.

Why?  Full throttle is definitely good, but they're fragile and only have 2 attack dice. The handmaidens are good, but I still think they're a 35 point ship. 

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Maybe I bought into the mini-defender+Juke aspect of the list and am being a pessimist about seeing another quad-Juke list. My gut tells me they're going to be something to be reckoned with if there are 5 or more permitted in a list (with Juke).

Okay. Now that  I type this all out, I guess my concern is with Juke. If that card truly was an issue, we'd have seen  6x Juke Black Squadron Aces dominating the game.

The I1 N-1 won't even have a Talent slot. What am I worrying about anyways?

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Posted (edited)

The Handmaidens seem good, but I would have liked a mid-tier generic with access to an Elite so I can run two with Juke. Doesn't seem like that will be an option. Ric and Padme will be as close as it gets (assuming she has an elite).

As far as points go, I think it's good to cost things relative to its own faction and the options within that faction.

That being said, these ships have a similar stat line as the Advanced X1, which starts at 38. They have a comparable dial. X1 have at least one linked action. I also think Adv. Targeting Computer is a better ability. Full Throttle gives you a chance for two actions in a turn, but consistently using 3-5 speeds isn't easy. I'm not sure the potential for an evade token outweighs a third agility die over the course of a game.

I'd venture to guess 32 would be a good starting point for the Handmaidens. 

Edit: I didn’t realize there was another generic pilot for the N1. That’s good, I think. I hope they keep that point cost shown in the Wave IV beta.

Edited by kempokid

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A reliable source of mine hints Padme coming in at 44. Factor in the force tax for Anakin then. Ric might not be whole lot more expansive than the Queen due to pilot abilities (see: Sinker vs Wolffie in 170).

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For some reasons, i wish they had 3 agility.

They will be priced quite high cause of the dial and the full throttle, but they will be inconsistent and sometimes just explode from one shot. 

Imagine if you can only board 4 of them. 

Equal surivability, less punch then an XWing.

Now think of Rebel Beef. What one round of trading shots will do to the N1s. Tie Swarms with 6 full modified shots (reroll + focus) usually cant take out a Beef ship in first Engagement.

What should 4 N1s do about it?

So far, if they will be priced the republic way, i see only Ric Olie being used on a regular basis.

Maybe as a substitute for the two gold squadron with Ani + Mace

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They’ll be support ships, you aren’t going to swarm with them.  I did play a few games running N-1 Anakin, Mace & Wolffe and was 1/1 out of two games.  One vs. a TieAdvanced x1/Vader and the other against Lulo, Talli & Friends

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11 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

The I1 N-1 won't even have a Talent slot. What am I worrying about anyways?

Probably not, given that it has a pilot ability by default (the whole Decoyed shtick).

But it's worth noting that the Bravo Flight Officer is I2, making it arguably 'better' than the two-dot limited Handmaiden.

And 'elite' I2s are rare, but not unheard of (Mining Guild Surveyor).

 

 

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If the points leak (attached) is anything to go by, you will be able to field 6 'naked' (or near as naked) i2 ships at 32 points a piece.

That 192 ... so a few points around for upgrading to named pilots or adding upgrades

I think that dropping to 5 and spreading a few more upgrades/named pilots around will be the sweet spot... 

 

wave 4 points.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I was wondering whether Ellberger was going to have a talent slot.

I was getting worried about the combination of Juke, Full Throttle, and "may not modify your dice" - but fortunately it's not an issue; they've gone down the same wording as Midnight so you can't use Juke at the same time as her pilot ability.

Something like Outmanoeuvre might be good, though, and I imagine she'd pair well with R2-A6 and 'Lil Ani' with Sense nearby.

 

Padme with Juke could be awesome, though it's slightly ironic that her ability is largely irrelevant against calculating droids when that's 99% of the stuff you ever see her fight...

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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@Dreadai - if that's true, then that's what 4 N-1s can do well relative to X-wings; you can get 4 generic Bravo Pilots with Passive Sensors and Proton Torpedoes - meaning you can reliably fire off 4 torpedoes even at higher initiative targets, and with 5 hit points and full throttle, you're actually pretty hard to bring down before you fire.

 

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Once again, I find Passive Sensors irksome.  Without the option of easy Proton Torpedoes, these things are mostly RZ-1 A-Wings or TIE/v1.  32 for an Init 2 N-1 feels about right in that context.  A free action if they restrict themselves to a fairly narrow part of a good dial.  Same offense without upgrades.  Similar-enough toughness.  All in all, a bit more expensive than an Init 1 A-Wing.

Compared to a T-65 X-Wing, they'll die about the same.  A free Evade on 5 HP is essentially 6 HP (you could roll all-evades, but in that case, one hull more or less probably doesn't make a difference).  Of course, a T-65 is so far from 50 points that there'd be a lot of filling out of the list.  Maybe 4X plus a support ship.  Maybe stacked defensive upgrades.  Maybe switched to a T-70 (R2 Blues or Predator Reds).  But I'd consider easy Torpedoes to outweigh the 2 red vs 3 red differences...

It'll be interesting to contrast the PS/PT N-1 to the PS/PT OS-1.  Gunboats are tougher to kill, can reload, and have the SLAM vs K-Turn differences in maneuverability.

One thing which seems like will be a weakness of N-1 is that they can't slowroll safely.  While they have 1-speed moves, they'll lose Full Throttle.  That'll certainly be a big advantage that a Passive Sensors Gunboat will have over them.  Even though Passive Sensors can get locks, slower moves seem like they'd be really valuable range control tool for folks using Deadeye 2.0.  Full Throttle might compel N-1s to move in a way which helps an opponent jump from Range 4 to Range 1 really easily.  I think that'll need to be felt out on the table to be sure.

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If Anakin is at 44, how effective would he be with an Instinctive Aim + Adv Proton Torpedo at 52? 3 Speed Maneuver for a free evade followed by a boost/barrel roll into Range 1.

Ideally you'll want a TL or focus/force with Adv Protons because of the number of dice, but you could use to shift target priority on your opponent and catch them in a bad spot.

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18 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

I think we'll be lucky to get 4 in a list. I'm anticipating them to start at 45 points on the low end up to 60 for Padme or Ric Olie.

I haven't bought any Republic ships (Separatist player), but this might be the one that lures me in.

ew no that's garbo

No way you could justify starting at more than an Arc, which is already vastly superior simply for having a 3-die primary (to say nothing else of the statline)

We're definitely looking at more-than-A-wing costs, but not by much.

 

13 minutes ago, kempokid said:

If Anakin is at 44, how effective would he be with an Instinctive Aim + Adv Proton Torpedo at 52? 3 Speed Maneuver for a free evade followed by a boost/barrel roll into Range 1.

Ideally you'll want a TL or focus/force with Adv Protons because of the number of dice, but you could use to shift target priority on your opponent and catch them in a bad spot.

eh, IA removes his ability

I'd try passive sensors + r2-c4 first. 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Maybe I bought into the mini-defender+Juke aspect of the list and am being a pessimist about seeing another quad-Juke list. My gut tells me they're going to be something to be reckoned with if there are 5 or more permitted in a list (with Juke).

Okay. Now that  I type this all out, I guess my concern is with Juke. If that card truly was an issue, we'd have seen  6x Juke Black Squadron Aces dominating the game.

The I1 N-1 won't even have a Talent slot. What am I worrying about anyways?

Pretty much.

There's no white Flip move, which makes the high-speed playstyle of the N-1 a lot riskier.

Juke is worth keeping in mind for ships still get actions, but these things are Z-95s with Full Throttle, and there almost surely won't be a generic with a Talent, and Handmaidens probably won't either.  Also, they'd be terrible with Juke if they could use it, since they're designed to use their Evades to protect other ships.

Meanwhile, even Howlrunner Juke TIEs aren't an issue.  That's pretty similar to Juke on 2 dice with Full Throttle.  Mathematically, they'll do about the same damage as a squad of generics with Howl, but with one fewer ship, becoming incredibly action-dependent, and utterly hosed in certain situations (Luke X-Wing would flat out OWN them).

Now, that's just generics, however.

Ric Ollie can be chucking a Juke Proton Torpedo (thankfully, his ability is Primary Weapon only when attacking!) pretty easily, and potentially defending on 4 green dice.  I'm actually really excited about him, since he's an ace-ish pilot who might be able to fill out a Jedi squad better than an ARC, but I recognise that he could easily be a L'ulo level sneaky powerhouse.

Edited by theBitterFig

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18 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Full Throttle might compel N-1s to move in a way which helps an opponent jump from Range 4 to Range 1 really easily.  I think that'll need to be felt out on the table to be sure.

I wonder if Advanced Proton Torpedoes might suit them for that reason (obviously not yet at a hyperspace event...)

 

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4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I wonder if Advanced Proton Torpedoes might suit them for that reason (obviously not yet at a hyperspace event...)

 

Doesn't seem too bad.

They've got decent range 3 defenses with Focus/Evade, and probably aim to lock organically without Passive Sensors, so an APT Bravo N-1 is probably going to come in under 40 points. That'd leave a lot of options for listbuilding.

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36 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Doesn't seem too bad.

They've got decent range 3 defenses with Focus/Evade, and probably aim to lock organically without Passive Sensors, so an APT Bravo N-1 is probably going to come in under 40 points. That'd leave a lot of options for listbuilding.

This. They're obviously no match for a Zealous Recruit Fang one-for-one at getting in someone's face and threatening 5-dice torpedo shots, but then you get an extra ship, so that's a lot more of an area covered by potential torpedo shots, and they're quite a bit tougher at long range (3 dice with focus/evade is fractionally better than 4 dice with just focus, and the N-1 can take more punishment when hit)

More importantly, if they are something like 32 points, 6 for torpedoes leaves 2 for fire control, which combined with full throttle gives them a fair amount of 'passive' bonuses, meaning you can seriously consider using their boost and barrel roll despite not having linked focus like the fang.

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3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This. They're obviously no match for a Zealous Recruit Fang one-for-one at getting in someone's face and threatening 5-dice torpedo shots, but then you get an extra ship, so that's a lot more of an area covered by potential torpedo shots, and they're quite a bit tougher at long range (3 dice with focus/evade is fractionally better than 4 dice with just focus, and the N-1 can take more punishment when hit)

More importantly, if they are something like 32 points, 6 for torpedoes leaves 2 for fire control, which combined with full throttle gives them a fair amount of 'passive' bonuses, meaning you can seriously consider using their boost and barrel roll despite not having linked focus like the fang.

Or going over 40 for a piece within a larger list, either R2 Astromech, or FCS + R3 seem like interesting options.  Regen plus Full Throttle means that one of these will be annoying to kill in a 1-on-1 (and really makes me glad these can't reload!).  R3 seems like it could really help an APT build, since attempting to move into Range 1 seems like it'll risk more blocks and arc-dodges, so having two potential targets might be good.  Meanwhile, with two locks, you'll probably be dead before you need to even consider changing your lock for an FCS build.

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29 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Meanwhile, with two locks, you'll probably be dead before you need to even consider changing your lock for an FCS build.

Indeed. That's probably not a bad option for a ship without torpedoes; if you've got a persistent lock on two enemy ships, the odds of not having a shot on one of them (assuming you have a shot at all, obviously) has to be fairly low.

R4-P astromechs could be nice, too - being able to make speed 3+ manoeuvres blue the turn after a talon roll opens up a lot of flexibility.

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On 6/19/2019 at 5:20 AM, Dreadai said:

If the points leak (attached) is anything to go by, you will be able to field 6 'naked' (or near as naked) i2 ships at 32 points a piece.

That 192 ... so a few points around for upgrading to named pilots or adding upgrades

I think that dropping to 5 and spreading a few more upgrades/named pilots around will be the sweet spot... 

 

wave 4 points.jpg

...those points do add up for the Resistance squad for the stream game they did. Republic is about 11 points shy of what they should be.

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