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Da_Brown_Bomber

What did 1.0 do better than 2.0?

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Someone mentioned this already. The only thing I "miss" about 1st Edition is the points and slots being on the cards. It is difficult to know if the list across from me is legal and to know if my list is legal. 

I've found 2nd Edition much better all the way around. I was playing maybe my third or fourth game of X-wing with three X-wings and went up against 4 Contracted Scouts. Not long after went up against TIE Defenders with X-wings. The silly newb brought X-wings to a game of X-wing. FFG is lucky I'm still around.

 

 

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While I'm sure that adjustable points is a good thing for the game (at least until the game is someday no longer supported), I very much miss being able to listbuild with only the cards.

I enjoyed being able to put a few cards on the table and swap pieces in and out quickly without also doing it on an app.

 

I also miss the missions. I played each one at least and always enjoyed them.

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Just now, FatherTurin said:

You have some good points, but I have to respectfully disagree with this point, specifically Dash and TLT.  Sure, they had a donut hole, but it really wasn’t difficult to deal with.  I played Dash/Miranda A LOT in 1.0, and before the Ghost brought us Kanan and “Ranbow Dash,” it was 1 bank, barrel roll, focus.  Occasionally a boost if someone was closer.

And Miranda didn’t care at all.  If someone got within range 1, they would just eat a 4 dice primary turret.

Don't forget about Dash being able to pick-up Proton Rockets, turning the 'donut hole' into just another 4 damage source except this time he can also crit you.

And don't forget about a good Dash player fully abusing their ability to ignore debris fields and forcing anyone looking to try and exploit the R1 gap to both avoid bumping and also avoid landing on a space hulk.


Folks always counter with, 'Oh, but [X] turreted ship did still require some amount of skill to fly! There's still a difference between a good player piloting the MF vs a bad player flying the MF!', which is true but misses the point that these ships were orders of magnitude easier to fly than anything else in the game. I could play my old Oicunn list while blackout drunk and still fare better half of the time than while being perfectly sober and mentally prepared but flying an ace list.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I loved the Empire v Rebel Days. 

Well, at least now there will be a lot less silly-looking mirror matches.

8 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Nobody misses the missions that used to be packed with large ships?

Sadly, I never found them that interesting.  They always felt like an after-thought to me; something FFG put in to pretend they cared about something more than 100 point games.

When they disappeared at the end, I wasn't that surprised.

I hope they get the energy they deserve as a stand-alone product in 2.0.

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Someone mentioned this already. The only thing I "miss" about 1st Edition is the points and slots being on the cards.

Given how badly I was shouted down about "incomplete cards" back when this all started, it warms my Sithy heart to hear that someone misses 1.0 pilot cards, too.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2019 at 2:28 PM, Vontoothskie said:

I'd say everything was better in 1.0 except medium bases and the OP things in later waves.

Cards had points on them, no irritating ap required, art was better, game design was more straight forward, token and ability spam was less ridiculous. it was just a better game

 

On 6/16/2019 at 2:28 PM, Vontoothskie said:

 

 

On 6/16/2019 at 2:21 PM, Vontoothskie said:

 

Saying it three times doesn't make it more true!

Printed points meant there was no way to balance upgrades or ships as the game evolved and newer card combinations released. The art is identical, and better yet, the packaging is more environmentally friendly! The game in 1.0 was far more reliant on powerhouse cards and fix cards, action economy was hyper-inflated, and Agility has been reigned in, actions, repositioning has been curtailed for the better, and several mechanics are incorporated into the game without requiring stacks of upgrade cards.

Edited by Arttemis

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20 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Pure Beer&Pretzels X-wing.

I keep hearing of this, but as an American I'm not sure I get the analogy.  It seems like some kind of casual-but also competitive hybrid mindset?

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14 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

It seems like some kind of casual-but also competitive hybrid mindset?

I think it's generally considered a focus on a simple-to-use-and-fun (as defined by the user) choice rather than the kind of complexity of interlocking talents, upgrades and pilot abilities which tend to characterise 'ace' and 'large ship' based squads.

 

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30 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I keep hearing of this, but as an American I'm not sure I get the analogy.  It seems like some kind of casual-but also competitive hybrid mindset?

Beer and Pretzels is casual. The focus is more on hanging out and having fun than winning or meta lists. The game is easy enough to be able to drink a couple of beers, munch on some snacks, bs a little, and still play. You don't have rules arguments because the rules are clear and there aren't any confusing interactions. 

The game is an excuse to have beers and snacks. 

 

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Posted (edited)

That said, holding the mental picture of where 5 strikers are going simultaneously isn't all that easy....as noted it's "as defined by the user" and people's opinions may vary.

8 TIE fighters instead of 5 TIE strikers, for example, means more warm bodies to manage, but the strikers actually pull 10 manoeuvres per turn, and judging final positions requires eyeballing two 'chained' manoeuvres for each ship.

Ultimately, yes. It's a squad you enjoy playing with, rather than necessarily being a hyper-competitive one.

 

Of course, in practice, enjoying using a squad = voluntarily playing that squad more = getting experience against lots of opponents = getting really good with that squad = competitive.....

....which is what has, from the sound of it, happened with @GreenDragoon's other half.

It's basically the forum's classic unhelpful 'git gud' but it doesn't feel so much like work when you enjoy using the squad, just like 'exercise' in the form of sports with friends tends to be feel less exhausting than time in the gym with a personal trainer who missed his calling as a psychotic Drill Sergeant.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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I miss low I ships being dangerous when kitted up, and more generally the TIE/fo feeling like a dangerous ship as opposed to list fodder.

3xSilencer, 3xRSV T-70, 5x/fo, etc.  Now generics feel like they win almost entirely through attrition or through mods provided by other ships as opposed to being individually capable, which is kind of a bummer.  I still fly some fun generic lists, but they don't have quite the same magic.

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There is currently way too much dice RNG in 2.0 due to the lack of reliable action economy/dice modification. You can completely outplay your opponent but roll 0 damage and you can play perfectly by staying at range 3 and still randomly die due to no autothrusters. 1.0 had less dice RNG.

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14 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

There is currently way too much dice RNG in 2.0 due to the lack of reliable action economy/dice modification. You can completely outplay your opponent but roll 0 damage and you can play perfectly by staying at range 3 and still randomly die due to no autothrusters. 1.0 had less dice RNG.

Alternatively, it could also feel bad because : 
''I use this upgrade comboed with this other one, now I reliably do 3 hits 98% of the time. Oh you're telling me your ship doesn't have a way to reliably autohit each attack while still having defense mod? Man that sucks, must be a crappy filler ship I guess? What's that, it's a T-65 .... X-what now? ''

The constant power creep only made sense when all ships could pull it off at more or less the same level. And really, why have dice to throw at all if all you want is to be able to calculate the average and inflict that much damage. 

''Ok so 3 die + focus is averaging 2 hits.''
''My 3 green defense die averages 1 evade.''
''OK so you suffer 1 damage. Onto next round.''

Positioning matters, because sometimes you'll whiff, and so you need to be able to keep up the chase without being outmaneuvered in turn, instead of moving around in circle until you catch someone in arc.

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57 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

There is currently way too much dice RNG in 2.0 due to the lack of reliable action economy/dice modification. You can completely outplay your opponent but roll 0 damage and you can play perfectly by staying at range 3 and still randomly die due to no autothrusters. 1.0 had less dice RNG.

No. Not at all. That the results of the dice matter is possibly the best thing about 2nd Ed. 

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4 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

There is currently way too much dice RNG in 2.0 due to the lack of reliable action economy/dice modification. You can completely outplay your opponent but roll 0 damage and you can play perfectly by staying at range 3 and still randomly die due to no autothrusters. 1.0 had less dice RNG.

I would agree with this except that the problem in 1.0 became that there were guaranteed sources of damage and not guaranteed sources of damage, and this meant that the guaranteed damage became auto-include for competitive lists and everything else was shelved.

I also don't think 2.0 has significantly less reliable red dice (plenty of ways to re-roll, and TL + Focus is as great a way as ever to get maximum damage from a roll), just less reliable green dice. And that's probably a good thing, because unreliable green dice make positioning much more relevant. Without Autothrusters, you can't just plink from R3 with no fear of consequences with a TIE Interceptor; you have to actually weigh the risk of making a head on R3 attack vs staying out of arc and getting behind your opponent.

Also, the trade-off of competitive tightness in exchange for the game shedding degeneracy like Fat Han 1.0 would probably be worth it regardless of all other considerations. I don't think most folks had fun playing those X-Wing games where all of your shooting involved 2 hits automatically being swallowed by evasion (and certainly nobody had fun in the ensuing power creep response, where TLT just blew you away and there was nothing you could do about it).

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For second edition organized play has been a bit of a disaster... Not sure that really has to do with second edition or with personal changes at FFG. (it also was not that great in first either)

Other then that I cant think of a thing that was better done in first edition (there are some things i miss but that is just content not mechanics.. mangler cannon M3a's for example)

I can understand wanting the points and slots when the teaser articles are released to help build excitement making hypothetical list, this is not an issue for me but i can see why some might enjoy that. I don't think it would hurt for them to give some points and upgrade slots and just say that "these are in development stats and subject to change" to give people a rough idea. I can see the downside to that as even with the disclaimer there would be people freaking out about them if they changed and being pissed at FFG "you broke your promise that we would get this for 27pts!!!!!!"

So really second edition was a big upgrade in every way and the game is much more fun.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

There is currently way too much dice RNG in 2.0 due to the lack of reliable action economy/dice modification. You can completely outplay your opponent but roll 0 damage and you can play perfectly by staying at range 3 and still randomly die due to no autothrusters. 1.0 had less dice RNG.

My tie fighter actually has a chance to score damage against something.  In first edition I stopped including any 2 dice attack ships because they were basically useless. 

First edition Autothrusters and reinforce are one thing i have never heard anyone complain about being gone.... until today that is.

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On 6/17/2019 at 11:16 AM, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, but what are you getting at?

e: that it was possible to be consistently good?

That skill in this environment of NO hyper mods is actually more apparent. That hyper mods don't reward skill a much as they reward a good build (which is meta solvable), and a few first turns. 

In essence, to the ones who say first Ed rewarded skill more that the evidence available does not carry that to true. I will be very interested to see what worlds looks like this year.

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Posted (edited)

Like I said before, hypermods just result in fewer but far more impactful rng rolls

The more rolls, the more you reach a statistical average

Plus green dice were certified bull last edition too, this ain't a new fad. Difference now is you might actually kill the thing that lucked out for a round instead of hitting a point where it's just guaranteed to win because of guaranteed defenses 

Limiting regen and the evade token (among others, like reinforce) was a godsend 

Of course, xwing dice still have problems (too few rolls per game; a single die added has a ridiculous potential impact) but 1st Ed only exacerbated them. My ideal rng system would be from either Warmachine (except tough; **** tough) or Armada, but what we got was a huge improvement in second Ed 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Plus green dice were certified bull last edition too, this ain't a new fad. Difference now is you might actually kill the thing that lucked out for a round instead of hitting a point where it's just guaranteed to win because of guaranteed defenses 

Limiting regen and the evade token (among others, like reinforce) was a godsend 

Psychologically, people should probably stop thinking of Green Dice as defense.

Defense is (a) not getting shot at in the first place, and (b) Hull and Shields.

Green Dice are a small amount of damage mitigation.

Sorta like D&D; you get hit and you suck damage.  Green Dice are a random check to see if your cloth armor got in the way.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I don't miss much about 1.0.  I do feel that alot of issues were addressed that were the problem.  However, I do think power creep will find its way into 2.0.

I agree, medium bases were the one thing I was asking for, and it happened.  So glad about that.

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My Ghost was better hahaha. Honestly we liked the small upgrade cards and having all the info on the ship's base. But gameplay is definitely more fair in 2nd edition. I play that competively from time to time but usually play 1st edition with close friends and my wife as it's what they know and enjoyed and no one broke the game with ridiculous combos.

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7 hours ago, GILLIES291 said:

 usually play 1st edition with close friends and my wife as it's what they know and enjoyed and no one broke the game with ridiculous combos.

This.

1st Edition wasn't so much "broken" as "breakable."  If you were in a group where people didn't insist on Munchkin gaming, the game is still pretty solid.

It definitely needed some revision and liberal application of the ban hammer with some resissues, but 1.0 could have remained the base game.  Instead of JM5K 2.0, it could have been JM5K Revised.

Probably the main advantage of that would be avoiding the current tedium of waiting forever for the game to be reissued as 2.0, especially if your are currently waiting for new material for your faction.

OTOH, so many things were added to the game (Force, medium bases, 4 more factions, et. al.) 2.0 certainly made a lot of sense from a clarity point of view.

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Posted (edited)

1st Ed was broken even from just a mathematical point of view with non-biggs xwings being trash next to Ties until Saw's. Plus they were boring as Sin

Now, Xwings are as potent as they should be and can even do more than just joust!

Plus xwing 1.0 kinda dug itself into a hole as no one expected it to explode as it did (leading to stupid **** like turrets). With second Ed, there's FAR more game design space to explore

Force

Charges

Front/rear/side/bullseye arcs; front and back line

Linked actions etc.

2nd Ed was necessary for the short and long term health of the game 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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On 6/16/2019 at 6:07 AM, ScummyRebel said:

... I even have PDFs saved of point values so that if the app/game ever did get end-of-lifed, I could continue to play 2.0. 

If that was the case I am sure the community would just make their own fan point costing. Heck maybe even @MajorJuggler would post something up that is if he wasn't able to sell it to another company.

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