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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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Not corrupted, just stupid enough to be manipulated. That's the main problem of the Jdi in the PT they are incredibly stupid. So much that it stretch a lot the suspension fo disbelief capacity.

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1 hour ago, WolfRider said:

Not corrupted, just stupid enough to be manipulated. That's the main problem of the Jdi in the PT they are incredibly stupid. So much that it stretch a lot the suspension fo disbelief capacity.

I think there is some corruption. Why did they tie themselves to the republic? To help. Why did they stay tied to the republic as it slowly got more corrupt? Because they thought they could control outcomes. Which is a very corrupt concept. Nothing is more tyrannical than i will control you so you cant cause your self harm. 

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a **** of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. C.S. Lewis.

when i read about the unifying force it comes across as the moral busy body trying to control everything.

also i think the Jedi Order got used to the money. And i think the senate got used to having a tool they could use to accomplish things with.

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Posted (edited)

This obsession with free will is deeply weird. As a society, we deny people its exercise all the time - anything from laws to imprisonment. Never mind how we're all subject to the ebb and flow of body chemistry. As if no one here was ever being unreasonably grumpy at someone during intense hunger or pain, or couldn't let go of an old grudge. How much free will does someone have who has to work an awful job or see their kids go hungry?

The Jedi mind trick isn't inherently different from any other influence on our behavior. And it's just that - an influence, per Obi-Wan's words. Not control.

Also: who cares about Watto, of all people? He's a child-beating slave-owner.

Edited by Stan Fresh

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On 8/2/2019 at 4:28 PM, kmanweiss said:

It was a loaded cube?  I haven't heard that?  What proof do we have backing that? A quick search turned up nothing specific.  The sides might not have been 3/3 red/blue but that doesn't necessarily indicate a loaded die as much as a die with different chances of outcomes.  A force die from SWRPG isn't loaded, but it doesn't have a 50/50 chance of black vs white (number of white pips vs black pips however does average out).  Assuming there was more blue than red, that might have been the gamble based on how he valued his two slaves.  Mom was worth less so he was more willing to lose her and gave her a higher chance of the result.  I'd love to see something definitive on it.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 5:13 PM, Daeglan said:

Look at the look on Watto's face. He had an expected answer and didnt get it. He also set the terms. He was cheating.

I'd always drawn that same conclusion, as well. But, he can't outright say, "Hey! I know you're cheating, because I was cheating!" Although he did ultimately openly accuse Qui-Gon of cheating after the also-unexpected result of Anakin winning the race.

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On 8/4/2019 at 4:25 AM, Stan Fresh said:

This obsession with free will is deeply weird. As a society, we deny people its exercise all the time - anything from laws to imprisonment. Never mind how we're all subject to the ebb and flow of body chemistry. As if no one here was ever being unreasonably grumpy at someone during intense hunger or pain, or couldn't let go of an old grudge. How much free will does someone have who has to work an awful job or see their kids go hungry?

The Jedi mind trick isn't inherently different from any other influence on our behavior. And it's just that - an influence, per Obi-Wan's words. Not control.

Also: who cares about Watto, of all people? He's a child-beating slave-owner.

Wow, just wow.

Free thought is a fundamental human right.  It's been ruled on in the US supreme court.  It exists in international human rights law.  Its part of UN human rights considerations.  It's one thing to have a law that restricts behavior, or to imprison a criminal for the safety of society, it's another to manipulate one's mind.  In fact there are a huge series of laws designed specifically to protect people from such things.  There are tons of limitations in advertising so as not to manipulate a person's free thought.  There are grooming laws specifically to protect people who would prey upon others by corrupting their free thought.

Telling someone how they should think.  Providing them with evidence.  Convincing them through passion.  Telling someone what they can and can't do in a society.  These are all normal operations, and none of them actually control one's thoughts or impulses.

Actually changing one's thought patterns is not the same thing by any means.  It's absolute control, not influence.

You talk about someone working an awful job to provide for their children.  They are making a choice to stay in that job for the sake of their children.  They may feel trapped, but they still have free will, free thought, and they are choosing their position as bad as it may be.  A Jedi however could walk up to that person, wave their hand and tell them to quit their job and abandon their children....and the person would do it.  The Jedi didn't convince the person to do it.  They didn't make an impassioned plea to the individual, they actively changed the thought patterns of the individual.  That person would quit their job, abandon their children, and hours or days later an incredible head ache would overcome them and start to eat away at them until they suddenly realize they performed some action that makes no sense to them.  They did something they'd never dream of doing as it goes against every aspect of their character.  They'd be overwhelmed with confusion, guilt, anxiety, and would try to fix the problem and undo the damage done.

A jedi mind trick isn't compelling a person to change their lifestyle from that point forward.  They don't forget the interaction.  They can recall the instance and see how out of character it is.  It causes intense physical pain.  The psychological damage of the incident is unimaginable.

Imagine being told to do something totally against your will, and just doing it without question, and then having to live with the consequences of not knowing why you did it, or how it could happen.

As for Watto, well society can be judged by how it treats ALL members of society, be them criminals, prisoners, etc.  Watto is a person.  A flawed, evil person, but still a person.  I'd argue that even he has rights, and if the freedom of thought is a fundamental human right, then it's not something you can take away from anyone.  You can wish the worst for him, you can charge him with crimes, you can imprison him, you can hope he suffers, but removing a person's free thought is akin to removing their life.

There is canon evidence of the affects of jedi mind trick victims.  It's not a 'hey, look over there...made you look!' kind of thing.  It's warping of one's thoughts.

The stormtrooper that Obi used it on in Ep4 later after recovering from a nasty headache realized that those were the droids he was looking for.  He couldn't figure out how he could make that kind of mistake.  He knew exactly what he was looking at, but told the old man to move along.  He didn't even check their ID.  It was a dereliction of duty and he was appalled.  The interesting part is he was part of the crew that retook the control room on the Death Star.  He spotted them there, even after he started to remember what happened earlier.  He was literally deconstructing it in his head about how those were the droids, and he was thinking of their physical descriptions when C3PO asked to take R2 to maintenance.  He allowed them to leave only to have it hit him moments later that those were the same droids as his brain was still messed up.  He pursued them but was stopped before he could reacquire them.  Most likely we has being called to command to be punished, and possibly killed for his dereliction of duty on Tatooine where he let the droids slip past him.

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6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yeah, no. You're getting your personal take on what free will is mixed up with what we see in the movies.

And the fake outrage is pretty transparent, too.

I agree. Also the effect is temporary. What happened when Obi Wan told the guy not to sell him death sticks and to rethink his life? He went home and rethought his life. And he might decide to continue as he is or he might not. 

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On 8/5/2019 at 3:52 PM, Stan Fresh said:

Yeah, no. You're getting your personal take on what free will is mixed up with what we see in the movies.

And the fake outrage is pretty transparent, too.

Oh, so free will is different in the star wars universe?  Please explain.

It's not fake outrage, the fact that you don't respect the concept of free thought is pretty appalling.  It's inhumane.  Brainwashing, grooming, indoctrination, and other such mental rewiring systems are evil, and seen as morally reprehensible by most governments of the world..  You are robbing someone of their personal agency.  The Jedi do it with a flick of their wrist.  Palpatine tricking the Jedi and manipulating the senate to hand over control to him is bad.  But absolutely controlling another persons thoughts is ok?

In virtually every single depiction in media, such control over someone else is seen as evil.  The people that perform those types of actions are the villains.  In instances where good people perform such actions, it's seen as them dipping into the darker sides of their psyche, crossing a line, or the start of their decline into complete darkness...except in star wars where the good guys are the ones controlling minds.  Not all that surprising when you also have the same group of people joking about killing people in 'aggressive negotiations'.

Temporary or not, you are messing with someone's brain, their ability to make choices for themselves.  It can compel them to do literally anything.  It has a real, painful consequence.  It could have much longer, and more severe impacts depending on the person and what actions were taken when you consider the consequences to those actions.

I love the path you've taken in this though.

Jedi don't do bad things.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people about important things.  It's not really that bad.  Move the goalposts much?

The fact that you even used the second one as a defense of the action is enlightening.  It only works on the weak minded.  So it's no big deal because they are only mentally controlling the weak and defenseless.  You know, the very type of people the Jedi should be protecting.

The Supreme Chancellor secretly dispatched two Jedi to settle the conflict.  He covertly (and illegally) sent people with mind control abilities to find a solution to a month long blockade that was driving two factions of republic representatives against one another.  Two people we see use mind control powers frequently.  This wasn't an official negotiation.  This wasn't a good faith meeting.  Heck, Naboo wasn't even involved with the talks.  The Jedi were sent to deal directly with the Trade Federation.  That's not the role of a negotiator.  To believe that mind control was not on the table for these 'negotiations' is one heck of a naive take.

To each their own though.  I believe the Jedi's use of mind control is a pretty morally/ethically questionable action that seems more in line with dark force than light force.  You have no qualms about forcing people to do things against their will.  There really isn't a middle ground to that debate.  It's been interesting, enlightening, and entertaining to have the discussion with you.  Cheers!

 

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3 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Oh, so free will is different in the star wars universe?  Please explain.

It's not fake outrage, the fact that you don't respect the concept of free thought is pretty appalling.  It's inhumane.  Brainwashing, grooming, indoctrination, and other such mental rewiring systems are evil, and seen as morally reprehensible by most governments of the world..  You are robbing someone of their personal agency.  The Jedi do it with a flick of their wrist.  Palpatine tricking the Jedi and manipulating the senate to hand over control to him is bad.  But absolutely controlling another persons thoughts is ok?

In virtually every single depiction in media, such control over someone else is seen as evil.  The people that perform those types of actions are the villains.  In instances where good people perform such actions, it's seen as them dipping into the darker sides of their psyche, crossing a line, or the start of their decline into complete darkness...except in star wars where the good guys are the ones controlling minds.  Not all that surprising when you also have the same group of people joking about killing people in 'aggressive negotiations'.

Temporary or not, you are messing with someone's brain, their ability to make choices for themselves.  It can compel them to do literally anything.  It has a real, painful consequence.  It could have much longer, and more severe impacts depending on the person and what actions were taken when you consider the consequences to those actions.

I love the path you've taken in this though.

Jedi don't do bad things.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people about important things.  It's not really that bad.  Move the goalposts much?

The fact that you even used the second one as a defense of the action is enlightening.  It only works on the weak minded.  So it's no big deal because they are only mentally controlling the weak and defenseless.  You know, the very type of people the Jedi should be protecting.

The Supreme Chancellor secretly dispatched two Jedi to settle the conflict.  He covertly (and illegally) sent people with mind control abilities to find a solution to a month long blockade that was driving two factions of republic representatives against one another.  Two people we see use mind control powers frequently.  This wasn't an official negotiation.  This wasn't a good faith meeting.  Heck, Naboo wasn't even involved with the talks.  The Jedi were sent to deal directly with the Trade Federation.  That's not the role of a negotiator.  To believe that mind control was not on the table for these 'negotiations' is one heck of a naive take.

To each their own though.  I believe the Jedi's use of mind control is a pretty morally/ethically questionable action that seems more in line with dark force than light force.  You have no qualms about forcing people to do things against their will.  There really isn't a middle ground to that debate.  It's been interesting, enlightening, and entertaining to have the discussion with you.  Cheers!

 

The Naboo were very much involved with those talks. It was the Naboo themselves who requested those negotiators. Remember, Amidala called the Trade Federation stating that she knew that Ambassadors had been dispatched to the Trade Federation, and that they were to have been commanded to reach a settlement.

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7 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Oh, so free will is different in the star wars universe?  Please explain.

It's not fake outrage, the fact that you don't respect the concept of free thought is pretty appalling.  It's inhumane.  Brainwashing, grooming, indoctrination, and other such mental rewiring systems are evil, and seen as morally reprehensible by most governments of the world..  You are robbing someone of their personal agency.  The Jedi do it with a flick of their wrist.  Palpatine tricking the Jedi and manipulating the senate to hand over control to him is bad.  But absolutely controlling another persons thoughts is ok?

In virtually every single depiction in media, such control over someone else is seen as evil.  The people that perform those types of actions are the villains.  In instances where good people perform such actions, it's seen as them dipping into the darker sides of their psyche, crossing a line, or the start of their decline into complete darkness...except in star wars where the good guys are the ones controlling minds.  Not all that surprising when you also have the same group of people joking about killing people in 'aggressive negotiations'.

Temporary or not, you are messing with someone's brain, their ability to make choices for themselves.  It can compel them to do literally anything.  It has a real, painful consequence.  It could have much longer, and more severe impacts depending on the person and what actions were taken when you consider the consequences to those actions.

I love the path you've taken in this though.

Jedi don't do bad things.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people.  Well, they'd never do those bad things to important people about important things.  It's not really that bad.  Move the goalposts much?

The fact that you even used the second one as a defense of the action is enlightening.  It only works on the weak minded.  So it's no big deal because they are only mentally controlling the weak and defenseless.  You know, the very type of people the Jedi should be protecting.

The Supreme Chancellor secretly dispatched two Jedi to settle the conflict.  He covertly (and illegally) sent people with mind control abilities to find a solution to a month long blockade that was driving two factions of republic representatives against one another.  Two people we see use mind control powers frequently.  This wasn't an official negotiation.  This wasn't a good faith meeting.  Heck, Naboo wasn't even involved with the talks.  The Jedi were sent to deal directly with the Trade Federation.  That's not the role of a negotiator.  To believe that mind control was not on the table for these 'negotiations' is one heck of a naive take.

To each their own though.  I believe the Jedi's use of mind control is a pretty morally/ethically questionable action that seems more in line with dark force than light force.  You have no qualms about forcing people to do things against their will.  There really isn't a middle ground to that debate.  It's been interesting, enlightening, and entertaining to have the discussion with you.  Cheers!

 

I get that you want to start an argument, but you're just being ridiculous.

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Posted (edited)

Am I alone in thinking the reason the Trade Federation were so afraid of the Jedi arriving to negotiate was not because they would control their minds, but that the jig is up? The Jedi can read your emotions and sometimes your thoughts. They know when you're lying, when you're manipulating, or withholding. Negotiations led by one of them would be direct because both sides know their powers can discern the truth of the situation. All deceptions and dissembling fall apart if they can be seen through. 

Edited by Vek Baustrade
Clarity

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1 minute ago, Vek Baustrade said:

Am I alone in thinking the reason the Trade Federation were so afraid of the Jedi arriving to negotiate was not because they would control their minds, but that the jig is up? The Jedi can read your emotions and sometimes your thoughts. They know when you're lying, when you're manipulating, or withholding. Negotiations led by one of them would be direct because both sides know their powers can discern the truth of the situation. All deceptions and dissembling fall apart if they can be seen through. 

This is exactly why the Trade Federation was scared. That, among other reasons. 

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14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is exactly why the Trade Federation was scared. That, among other reasons. 

Yeah. They knew they were being shady. They knew the Jedi would see through their lies. They knew the Jedi would be able to get cooperation out of them somehow.  

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