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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

"It's treason, then."

Meanwhile, the people on the loyal worlds are slaughtered by the Separatists. How's that a realistic option for the Jedi? It's not.

 

I never said the Republic should not have acted. I didnt say the Jedi shouldnt have acted. I just said they should have chosen not to be generals and fought a war.

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6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I never said the Republic should not have acted. I didnt say the Jedi shouldnt have acted. I just said they should have chosen not to be generals and fought a war.

That's the exact scenario I described.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2019 at 10:13 AM, kmanweiss said:

Dozens if not hundreds of American spies have been captured and executed.  Not once has the US government launched a full scale war to save one of their lives.  They'd have no ground to as the spying was the first hostile action.  If anything, the Republic should have at least contacted the Seperatists and tried to negotiate for their release through proper channels...but instead they just drop out of hyperspace with an army and launch a full scale war.  It wasn't even a special forces extraction of the prisoners...they landed siege weapons and started a massive conflict.

The one thing - the Jedi did try (admittedly at gunpoint) tell the Separatists to knock it off. The first wave of Jedi snuck into the arena, Mace pulled his saber on Dooku and said "Everybody be chill and we're good!"

Now the Jedi did bring a whole bunch of weapons and troops and ships, but they did go to the "lets talk things out" playbook first, even if it was just a token gesture.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 4:34 PM, micheldebruyn said:

It seems pretty black and white to me. The CIS were patsies. So was the Republic. And the Jedi were the ones being duped.

One of the other things to consider? That the Jedi Order was pretty much broken by that point. Palpatine wasn't helping matters, but the order was doing a good job on their own losing their way on their own. Yeah, marching to war with an army that just happened to show up on your doorstep was stupid, but perfectly in line with the state of the Jedi at the moment.

Edited by Desslok

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40 minutes ago, Desslok said:

One of the other things to consider? That the Jedi Order was pretty much broken by that point. Palpatine wasn't helping matters, but the order was doing a good job on their own losing their way on their own. Yeah, marching to war with an army that just happened to show up on your doorstep was stupid, but perfectly in line with the state of the Jedi at the moment.

Yeah. I think they so thoroughly hitchwd their wagon to the Senate that it was easy for Palps to manipulate the Jedi down flawed thinking by only giving them the info he wanted them to act on.

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You also have to remember what they knew at this point. They sent Obi-wan to figure out who was trying to assassinate a Senator of the republic and in doing so found out that the leader of a group of political idealists (dooku) was actually behind the assassination attempts and was planning a cue. The next thing they know Obi-wan is getting captured, the Senate is voting the chancelor emergency powers to authorize the usage of a clone army and it is on them to try to end a war before it begins. Remember that Yoda does not consider geonosis a victory and does not consider what happened there to be "according to plan".

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16 hours ago, Desslok said:

The one thing - the Jedi did try (admittedly at gunpoint) tell the Separatists to knock it off. The first wave of Jedi snuck into the arena, Mace pulled his saber on Dooku and said "Everybody be chill and we're good!"

Now the Jedi did bring a whole bunch of weapons and troops and ships, but they did go to the "lets talk things out" playbook first, even if it was just a token gesture.

Also, remember back in TPM? The Jedi showed to peacefully negotiate an end to the hostilities between the Trade Federation and Naboo, and the Trade Fed.  tried to outright murder them without listening to a single word, AND blew up an unarmed diplomatic cruiser, murdering the entire crew when they were helpless in the hangar.

With the Trade Federation involved with the separatists to the extent that they were, it seems only prudent to come armed and ready for trouble during the next attempt to "talk things out". Turns out, they weren't armed and ready enough.

I'd say their attempt at peaceful negotiation was a genuine effort, rather than a token gesture. Rather than let Windu speak for the Jedi alone, he could have brought a squad of skilled knights to where the separatist. leadership was seated, positioned to strike a decapitating blow. You could argue it was stupid of the Jedi not to try that, but another valid reason could be that surrounding Dooku and pals with a dozen Jedi would be seen as overly threatening, and they abstained from doing it out of fear of escalating the situation needlessly. That didn't quite pan out, but it wasn't because the Jedi weren't trying hard enough for a peaceful solution. If anything, they tried too hard and played right into Dooku's hands.

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4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Also, remember back in TPM? The Jedi showed to peacefully negotiate an end to the hostilities between the Trade Federation and Naboo, and the Trade Fed.  tried to outright murder them without listening to a single word, AND blew up an unarmed diplomatic cruiser, murdering the entire crew when they were helpless in the hangar.

With the Trade Federation involved with the separatists to the extent that they were, it seems only prudent to come armed and ready for trouble during the next attempt to "talk things out". Turns out, they weren't armed and ready enough.

I'd say their attempt at peaceful negotiation was a genuine effort, rather than a token gesture. Rather than let Windu speak for the Jedi alone, he could have brought a squad of skilled knights to where the separatist. leadership was seated, positioned to strike a decapitating blow. You could argue it was stupid of the Jedi not to try that, but another valid reason could be that surrounding Dooku and pals with a dozen Jedi would be seen as overly threatening, and they abstained from doing it out of fear of escalating the situation needlessly. That didn't quite pan out, but it wasn't because the Jedi weren't trying hard enough for a peaceful solution. If anything, they tried too hard and played right into Dooku's hands.

The problem with this is that the Trade Federation was part of the Republic.  They had a seat in the senate.  They weren't part of the Separatists at this time.

But, it's not like the Jedi played fair.  We see them use Jedi mind tricks constantly.  Would you really want to be in a debate against a Jedi when they seem to have no qualms altering your thought?  They flat out mind control you to get their way.  They flat out cheat in games to get their way.  Bringing Jedi 'negotiators' to solve a crisis is in itself tantamount to outright corruption.  Sure, if they manipulate things to your favor it's nice, but if they decide to back the other side...well that's nice too because they waved their hand at you and told you that you think it's nice.  That's not exactly a negotiation.

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17 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

The problem with this is that the Trade Federation was part of the Republic.  They had a seat in the senate.  They weren't part of the Separatists at this time.

But, it's not like the Jedi played fair.  We see them use Jedi mind tricks constantly.  Would you really want to be in a debate against a Jedi when they seem to have no qualms altering your thought?  They flat out mind control you to get their way.  They flat out cheat in games to get their way.  Bringing Jedi 'negotiators' to solve a crisis is in itself tantamount to outright corruption.  Sure, if they manipulate things to your favor it's nice, but if they decide to back the other side...well that's nice too because they waved their hand at you and told you that you think it's nice.  That's not exactly a negotiation.

Which is why they should never had tied them selves to the Senate. Too much temptation for the senate to abuse. To easy for the jedi to misuse for what they percieve as a good reason

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3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Which is why they should never had tied them selves to the Senate. Too much temptation for the senate to abuse. To easy for the jedi to misuse for what they percieve as a good reason

Agreed

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6 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

The problem with this is that the Trade Federation was part of the Republic.  They had a seat in the senate.  They weren't part of the Separatists at this time.

But, it's not like the Jedi played fair.  We see them use Jedi mind tricks constantly.  Would you really want to be in a debate against a Jedi when they seem to have no qualms altering your thought?  They flat out mind control you to get their way.  They flat out cheat in games to get their way.  Bringing Jedi 'negotiators' to solve a crisis is in itself tantamount to outright corruption.  Sure, if they manipulate things to your favor it's nice, but if they decide to back the other side...well that's nice too because they waved their hand at you and told you that you think it's nice.  That's not exactly a negotiation.

That's not how the Jedi are portrayed in the movies. They never do anything like that, and Anakin tells us that the mind trick doesn't work on strong-willed people anyway.

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3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's not how the Jedi are portrayed in the movies. They never do anything like that, and Anakin tells us that the mind trick doesn't work on strong-willed people anyway.

Most people dont know that. Look at how Nute Gunray reacts to the idea of being in a room with the Jedi

 

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5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Most people dont know that. Look at how Nute Gunray reacts to the idea of being in a room with the Jedi

 

Irrelevant. The comment I quoted wasn't about impressions. It was about how Jedi supposedly act.

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3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Irrelevant. The comment I quoted wasn't about impressions. It was about how Jedi supposedly act.

It is relevant people act on how they percieve jedi. Not how jedi actually act.

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12 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Most people dont know that. Look at how Nute Gunray reacts to the idea of being in a room with the Jedi

 

I think Nute's fear of being in the same room with a Jedi, might be because he's literally watched TWO of them, plow through his forces, and literally start to carve through his "impenetrable blast door" , to come for him when he tried to kill 2 of them in Episode 1.   The phrase "Unstoppable Terror" comes to mind when you look at the opening scene of Phantom Menace from his viewpoint.  He's probably thinking.  "They are sitting just 10 FEET from me!  Any second they could just leap over here and cut me in half!  I've seen them move that fast!  Holy crap holy crap holy crap!"  

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Not when talking about whether Jedi ARE corrupt or not.

They are all interrelated. You have the jedi doing the bidding of the Republic. Then you have how people react to that. Then you have what happens when outiders see what happens. Also dont forget there is the classic mind trick. And then there is thencontrol upgrade that adds force dice to social checks.  So i think that Jedi negotiators probably used that control upgrade when negotiating. And doing that is most certainly could be viewed as corrupt. 

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13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think Nute's fear of being in the same room with a Jedi, might be because he's literally watched TWO of them, plow through his forces, and literally start to carve through his "impenetrable blast door" , to come for him when he tried to kill 2 of them in Episode 1.   The phrase "Unstoppable Terror" comes to mind when you look at the opening scene of Phantom Menace from his viewpoint.  He's probably thinking.  "They are sitting just 10 FEET from me!  Any second they could just leap over here and cut me in half!  I've seen them move that fast!  Holy crap holy crap holy crap!"  

You forgot his reaction was before the Jedi did. Im not going into a room with those jedi. He called Sidious

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think Nute's fear of being in the same room with a Jedi, might be because he's literally watched TWO of them, plow through his forces, and literally start to carve through his "impenetrable blast door" , to come for him when he tried to kill 2 of them in Episode 1.   The phrase "Unstoppable Terror" comes to mind when you look at the opening scene of Phantom Menace from his viewpoint.  He's probably thinking.  "They are sitting just 10 FEET from me!  Any second they could just leap over here and cut me in half!  I've seen them move that fast!  Holy crap holy crap holy crap!"  

I think Nute's scared because there are very few things in the known galaxy he's not afraid off.

Plus, he'd be a lot less scared of the Jedi if he hadn't just failed to murder them. Context matters. He knew they were Jedi. He ambushed them anyway. Nute's a cowardly moron, and his views should not taken as a generalised view of the galaxy.

Plus, he's working for the Sith. He's doing something very illegal, and then two supercops show up on his doorstep.

Edited by micheldebruyn

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50 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You forgot his reaction was before the Jedi did. Im not going into a room with those jedi. He called Sidious

True, though given what they immediately do, I think that is more the thing he was afraid of, not some mind tricking.  Remember later in that same film, kid Anakin, a slave child who has only been alive maybe 7 years, has heard of Jedi, and what he has heard is about them being unkillable warriors.  Not some mind tricky stuff.  So, if a slave kid, on a backwater dirtball of a desert planet, knows that "Jedi can't be killed", I think it's likely their martial prowess is what is the "common knowledge" about the Jedi.  Not mind tricking fear.

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53 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

I think Nute's scared because there are very few things in the known galaxy he's not afraid off.

heh, very true. 

54 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Plus, he'd be a lot less scared of the Jedi if he hadn't just failed to murder them. Context matters. He knew they were Jedi. He ambushed them anyway. Nute's a cowardly moron, and his views should not taken as a generalised view of the galaxy.

While he was definitely coded as the "sniveling toady" as far as cinematic tropes.  I do think his knowledge of the Jedi is common enough.

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1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

I think Nute's scared because there are very few things in the known galaxy he's not afraid off.

Plus, he'd be a lot less scared of the Jedi if he hadn't just failed to murder them. Context matters. He knew they were Jedi. He ambushed them anyway. Nute's a cowardly moron, and his views should not taken as a generalised view of the galaxy.

Plus, he's working for the Sith. He's doing something very illegal, and then two supercops show up on his doorstep.

He was scared before he tried to murdered them

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23 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

True, though given what they immediately do, I think that is more the thing he was afraid of, not some mind tricking.  Remember later in that same film, kid Anakin, a slave child who has only been alive maybe 7 years, has heard of Jedi, and what he has heard is about them being unkillable warriors.  Not some mind tricky stuff.  So, if a slave kid, on a backwater dirtball of a desert planet, knows that "Jedi can't be killed", I think it's likely their martial prowess is what is the "common knowledge" about the Jedi.  Not mind tricking fear.

Which just adds to the "Im going to make you an offer you cant refuse" vibe. And the Senate is the Mafia Don. 

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18 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's not how the Jedi are portrayed in the movies. They never do anything like that, and Anakin tells us that the mind trick doesn't work on strong-willed people anyway.

What?

Quigon tries and fails to mind trick Watto.  Quigon uses the force to manipulate the die roll.  Obi uses the mind trick on Coruscant on the death stick dealer.  Obi uses it on the stormtroopers on Tatooine.  Luke uses it on Bib.  Luke attempts to use it on Jabba.  Rey uses it on a storm trooper.  Ezra uses it.  Ahsoka uses it.  Jinx uses it.  Anakin uses it.  Kanan uses it.  Just to name a few.  Some of these are in the movies, some are in the cartoons, some are in the comics.  All canon uses.  There are even more examples if you include games.

The Jedi learn the Jedi mind trick early as seen by Jinx.  They use it often as the list shows (possibly the second most used tool in their repertoire behind that of the lightsaber).  Quigon has no qualms making and breaking deals while using the force to manipulate the outcomes of events.  The Jedi are cheats.  No one should trust a Jedi.  Jedi wouldn't be allowed in casinos.  No way I'd debate, negotiate, or make a deal with a Jedi.  You know that had the Trade Federation sat down to have an honest talk with Quigon and Obi and had the trade federation had not agreed to back off, Quigon would have just used his Jedi mind trick to force them.  There is no reason he wouldn't.  He has no hesitation using the force like that.

And people DO know about it.  Jabba knows about it.  Watto knows about it.  It's well known that the Jedi can mess with your mind.

Jedi mind tricks aren't exactly harmless magic tricks either.  There is canon examples of what happens to those affected by the jedi mind trick.  The **** thing reeks of the darkside, and I didn't even get into the number of times they used by dark practitioners.  ****, it's probably half the reason Palpatine was able to pull off what he did.  Manipulating people against their will to get them to do things you want is evil, plain and simple.

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