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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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55 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well, he does say "Wookiees are known to do that."  Which I took to be something that was common knowledge, based on frequent interactions with the species.  Sure he could be lying, but when you attribute behavior to an entire species as commonly know, that's usually do to some level of actual basis in fact.

To me, that plays so much better as Han trolling them than as a statement of fact. It flattens the dialogue by making something fun into something pedestrian.

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21 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

To me, that plays so much better as Han trolling them than as a statement of fact. It flattens the dialogue by making something fun into something pedestrian.

*shrugs* I never saw the problem with it being an actual fact of Wookiee behavior, something that was happily embraced by the fan base for decades with the whole Wookiee Rage nonsense, and also coupling it with them having insane strength.  So coupling "they tend to get Hulk level Angry, with superhuman strength" it makes sense they would be able to rip limbs off various creatures in the galaxy.  The fact that it's feasible didn't make it any less amusing of a line to me.

I mean, to each his own, I just don't see the problem with it.   I assumed it was true before Solo showed it on film.   

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1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

And the Republic has no force to deal with pirates? At all?

The Republic had Judicials--a sort of galaxy-spanning police force/coast guard. They also had a number of militias defending individual worlds or (relatively) small areas of space. These two groups were the source of many of the non-Clone/non-Jedi Republic officers during the CW.

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4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Okay this is ridiculous Kmanweiss. Your comments about the movies aren't based on the movies.  Not in the least.

 

 

It's canon information, so I'm not sure what to say to you.  You can choose to ignore it if you wish, but it is what it is.  If you'd like more detailed information, I can try to help you out so that you understand the situation better.

 

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Apparently civilians died on Naboo. 

The trade federation isn't part of the CIS.  In fact they are part of the Republic interestingly enough.  Naboo was was a civil war of sorts within the Republic.

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7 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

It's canon information, so I'm not sure what to say to you.

You're making the fundamental error of ignoring that the Separatists are as much Palpatine's puppets as the Jedi and the rest of the Republic.

Why didn't they start the war earlier? Because Palpatine didn't want them to.

You present a deeply skewed view of the movies by not properly acknowledging that the entire situation was engineered on all sides.

 

7 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

 

  You can choose to ignore it if you wish, but it is what it is.  If you'd like more detailed information, I can try to help you out so that you understand the situation better. 

Nah I don't need more of your nonsense.

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Weren't the Seperatists just a giant protection racket? I was under the impression that they were literally cartoonishly evil in their actions. Not that there weren't genuine idealists or valid complaints with the Republic, but the ranks of their leaders were deliberately filled with the most greedy, evil, and grievous (heh) group of people they could find. Plus their actions on Ryloth regarding scorched earth approach to a neutral planet, the fact that the Techno Union holds a species as private property and uses them for weapons testing because they hold the deed to the planet they're on, the countless superweapons that they developed all seem to indicate that they are way more concerned with scaring people than military pragmatism. And as I've said before, who might benefit from having the people of the galaxy scared of an enemy?

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24 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

The trade federation isn't part of the CIS.  In fact they are part of the Republic interestingly enough.  

Yeah, and lootboxs are surprise features.

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There's a lot of talk that the Jedi should have looked into the clone army, but the really sneaky part it is...

It's pretty much exactly what it's claimed to be. A grand army to defend the republic ordered by a loyal jedi master who took matters into his own hands.

The troops were loyal and effective, exactly as advertised.

Order 66 wasn't a secret, just buried among several other contingency orders. The inhibitor chips weren't a secret, but their entire purpose wasn't disclosed.

Nothing says the Jedi didn't investigate the matter. It's perfectly reasonable the actually did miss the fairly cleverly hidden plot, particularly when there is a war going on.

 

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9 hours ago, penpenpen said:

There's a lot of talk that the Jedi should have looked into the clone army, but the really sneaky part it is...

It's pretty much exactly what it's claimed to be. A grand army to defend the republic ordered by a loyal jedi master who took matters into his own hands.

The troops were loyal and effective, exactly as advertised.

Order 66 wasn't a secret, just buried among several other contingency orders. The inhibitor chips weren't a secret, but their entire purpose wasn't disclosed.

Nothing says the Jedi didn't investigate the matter. It's perfectly reasonable the actually did miss the fairly cleverly hidden plot, particularly when there is a war going on.

 

You're right, nothing says they didn't investigate, there's also nothing saying they did.  It's a totally dropped plot thread, based on what is presented in the films.  We have on scene where it's addressed, and that's when Kenobi is telling Yoda/Mace via holovid.  They look at each other with Grave Portent....and then it's never brought up again.   Sure we can infer whatever we like, positive or negative, on how the Jedi handled it, but the reason it's a flaw in the film, is that it was given a full scene to itself, to tell us, the audience "This an Important Detail", and then goes nowhere with it.  

Now, that being said, I don't really care.  As I've stated before, the film had a lot of roadblocks since it was destined to end with "Begun, the Clone War has."  So they dropped a lot of things.  And maybe there are some deleted scenes where they do investigate that further.  Or an earlier draft of the script contained further development.  Final product though?  It's a dropped thread, so it just kind of dangles there, unresolved.   Not a deal breaker, but it does make it messier than it needed to be.

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1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

You're right, nothing says they didn't investigate, there's also nothing saying they did.  It's a totally dropped plot thread, based on what is presented in the films.  We have on scene where it's addressed, and that's when Kenobi is telling Yoda/Mace via holovid.  They look at each other with Grave Portent....and then it's never brought up again.   Sure we can infer whatever we like, positive or negative, on how the Jedi handled it, but the reason it's a flaw in the film, is that it was given a full scene to itself, to tell us, the audience "This an Important Detail", and then goes nowhere with it.   

 

It's not dropped; it's just not developed in the obvious direction. Instead of an investigation, we get the war and Order 66.

 

 

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Adding to my own thing from 2 pages ago. Yoda states "once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. CONSUME you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice." You do not need the characters to specifically state "you have to kill darth vader" for them to be understood that it is what they are telling luke to do. If you read between the lines and take the overall meaning of every scene it is made clear that Yoda and Obi believe Vader beyond redemption. That is what makes Luke a legend, that is what makes his actions in RotJ so meaningful because while everyone told him to kill a unredeemable man he saw redemption for him and saved someone that was thought to be unsaveable. 

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6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

You're right, nothing says they didn't investigate, there's also nothing saying they did.  It's a totally dropped plot thread, based on what is presented in the films.  We have on scene where it's addressed, and that's when Kenobi is telling Yoda/Mace via holovid.  They look at each other with Grave Portent....and then it's never brought up again.   Sure we can infer whatever we like, positive or negative, on how the Jedi handled it, but the reason it's a flaw in the film, is that it was given a full scene to itself, to tell us, the audience "This an Important Detail", and then goes nowhere with it.  

Now, that being said, I don't really care.  As I've stated before, the film had a lot of roadblocks since it was destined to end with "Begun, the Clone War has."  So they dropped a lot of things.  And maybe there are some deleted scenes where they do investigate that further.  Or an earlier draft of the script contained further development.  Final product though?  It's a dropped thread, so it just kind of dangles there, unresolved.   Not a deal breaker, but it does make it messier than it needed to be.

I dunno. To me it seems like complaining that we didn't get a scene where Luke did or didn't get landing permission on Cloud City the way we got with the Falcon.

They needed an army because there was another army coming. They might've had some reservations initially, but from the end of AotC to we skip several years to the beginning of RotS and there is a lot of stuff we are just asked to accept happened, such as the Jedi having grown to trust the clones.

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27 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I dunno. To me it seems like complaining that we didn't get a scene where Luke did or didn't get landing permission on Cloud City the way we got with the Falcon.

They needed an army because there was another army coming. They might've had some reservations initially, but from the end of AotC to we skip several years to the beginning of RotS and there is a lot of stuff we are just asked to accept happened, such as the Jedi having grown to trust the clones.

In fact even including the clone wars that seems to be the case. And in the clone wars there is a couple scenes where the Clones themselves are questioning things more than the Jedi...

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I would imagine the Jedi made at least some effort to do additional investigations during the onset of the Clone Wars, and may have still had some early reservations, but given the loyalty and importantly effectiveness of the Clone Troopers at doing what they were literally born to do, it's most likely the Council made the decision to not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially as on the surface of things the Clone Army came exactly as advertised, with Syfo-Dias having done all the necessary background work to make the whole thing feasible, and that Jango Fett had decided that the bounty for killing Amidala was just too good an opportunity to pass up for what amounts to a professional assassin.

In Legends at least, Order 66 was buried in amidst a list of 150 General Orders, with Order 65 being the arrest of the Supreme Chancellor if circumstances called for it, though this General Order required a heck of a lot more steps as opposed to Order 66 due to the Jedi (in theory) being several magnitudes more dangerous than an old politician if they suddenly went renegade.  And the Jedi Council probably agreed that having something like Order 66 was a good idea, as they knew better than anyone just how dangerous a renegade Jedi could be.

Add that Palpatine had literally spent decades covering his tracks and preparing for this sequence of events, on top of the Jedi's own abilities to perceive events through the Force being diminished (as per Mace Windu in AotC) even if they were loathe to openly admit it for possible fear of displaying weakness to both their primary supporters (the Senate) as well as their enemies.

Then again, as the audience we have the benefit of both hindsight (we know how all this ultimately turns out) and being able to act as outside observers who are aware of facts that the individuals in the story aren't aware of.

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21 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're making the fundamental error of ignoring that the Separatists are as much Palpatine's puppets as the Jedi and the rest of the Republic.

Why didn't they start the war earlier? Because Palpatine didn't want them to.

You present a deeply skewed view of the movies by not properly acknowledging that the entire situation was engineered on all sides.

 

Nah I don't need more of your nonsense.

Look, there is nothing wrong with head canon, but you can't bring head canon to a debate about what is happening in actual canon.  There is canon information, it is irrefutable.  If you choose not to believe fact, that is fine, then step out of the conversation as you simply aren't participating at the same level as everyone else.

The trade federation is part of the republic.  Geonosis was not.  The Separatists had valid complaints and simply wanted to exist peacefully.  Not all members of the CIS were republic/former republic worlds.  The CIS was building a droid army for defense against the Republic.  The Geonosis invasion and subsequent occupation (as Geonosis wasn't Republic, it was an occupation) is what started the war.  This is a war that the Republic started.  A war they started to save 3 individuals who were tresspassing, sabotaging, and spying in foreign territory.  A battle where they ultimately lost way more than they saved (170+ Jedi died on Geonosis).

The systems that were part of the CIS had actual reasons to leave the Republic.  They had needs that were being ignored.  Problems were not being dealt with.  Aid was not being delivered.

Now, we can talk about how both sides are being manipulated.  That is clear as day.  Palpatine likely caused all of the complaints held by the Separatists.  He likely orchestrated problems, then orchestrated the slow responses of the Republic Senate.  The same sort of thing he was doing with Naboo.  He likely encouraged the Trade Federation (indirectly) to blockade the planet.  He then helped to slow any response in the senate.  He was likely trying to drive Naboo to the Separatists.  This occurred right in front of your eyes in the movie.  Amidala called out the Trade Federation in the Republic Senate, and the Trade Federation (members of the Republic) denied the accusation.  He did this several times.  Republic worlds in dire need of supplies/aid/protection/etc would cry out for help from the Republic, but the Republic would debate the situation, send people to investigate, debate who was going to pay to help, etc.  Then the CIS would step in and provide the supplies/aid/protection/etc.  Palpatine sent Dooku to infiltrate the CIS and help guide them towards the war he wanted.  The CIS systems/senate didn't want a war with the Republic.  They just wanted a peaceful existence.  Dooku convinced them that the Republic would start a war to reclaim their worlds.  He convinced them to work with the banking clans to borrow hordes of cash (which they couldn't afford) in order to fund a massive army through the Techno Union and other sources in order to protect themselves from a Republic army (that no one knew about yet).  Dooku had a seperate council that he lead that was made up of members of the Union, Geonosis, the Trade Federation, etc.  Those are the individuals killed by Anakin on Mustafar.  They were not the CIS senate.

The CIS senate did NOT want war.  Dooku/Palpatine wanted and needed the war.  The CIS did not start the war, they were attacked by the Republic.  After the war started, they tried multiple times to find a peaceful resolution.  They sent emissaries of peace.  They agreed to peace talks.  They invited peace emissaries and Jedi to meet with them about obtaining peace.  Dooku/Palpatine undermined these efforts.  Had Dooku used the army offensively, the senate would have likely opposed this and cut ties with him, the rest of the council, and sought peace with the Republic.  Because of this, Palpatine needed the Republic to attack first.  The Republic needed to be the aggressors so the CIS could simply defend themselves, thus unleashing the massive droid army.

The fact is the Jedi did NOT have to go to war.  They chose to.  The Jedi were not defending anyone on Geonosis, they were leading an invasion and killing people.  That seems very unjedi like.

They could have refused.  They could have resisted.  They could have actually met with or even defected to the CIS who's senate seemed more in line with the Jedi than the Republic did.

Yes, Palpatine was playing both sides in order to create this scenario, but to say that it would have absolutely played out the way it did is silly.  The Jedi had options, they just choose not to pursue any.  They took the path of least resistance and ended up doing something that flies in the face of the Jedi Code.  Had they rebelled with the CIS, everything might have played out in a similar way.  Dooku and his council take control of the CIS military (control they already had to be honest) and continue the war with the Republic.  The Republic, lead by Palpatine, would have still fought the war, and would have still blamed the CIS.  The CIS senate would call for peace, but it would be ignored by the Republic.  Palpatine would likely order Order 66 much earlier and send part of the clone army to CIS worlds in order to kill the Jedi.

The end result is much the same, but at least the Jedi could have died on the side of right instead of as a force for evil.

However, it's possible that the Jedi backing the CIS, showing that the Republic was no longer a democracy and being control by the Sith who also had a hand in building the droid army and showing that it was all a long con may have convinced citizens of the Republic to overthrow Palpatine...but I'm not sure how.  The only large scale armies were both controlled by him.  If anything, the clone wars would have likely ended much quicker, and the Empire would have been established earlier with the Rebellion also starting earlier.

You see, I'm not ignoring the fact that Palpatine was playing both sides.  But unlike you, I'm not ignoring the fact that leading an army goes against the Jedi code, or ignoring the fact that the Jedi have a say in the matter and made the choice that ultimately made the least amount of sense for what they represented.  The Jedi had options, and basically any of them made more sense than what they ultimately chose to do.

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1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Look, there is nothing wrong with head canon, but you can't bring head canon to a debate about what is happening in actual canon.  There is canon information, it is irrefutable.  If you choose not to believe fact, that is fine, then step out of the conversation as you simply aren't participating at the same level as everyone else.

The trade federation is part of the republic.  Geonosis was not.  The Separatists had valid complaints and simply wanted to exist peacefully.  Not all members of the CIS were republic/former republic worlds.  The CIS was building a droid army for defense against the Republic.  The Geonosis invasion and subsequent occupation (as Geonosis wasn't Republic, it was an occupation) is what started the war.  This is a war that the Republic started.  A war they started to save 3 individuals who were tresspassing, sabotaging, and spying in foreign territory.  A battle where they ultimately lost way more than they saved (170+ Jedi died on Geonosis).

The systems that were part of the CIS had actual reasons to leave the Republic.  They had needs that were being ignored.  Problems were not being dealt with.  Aid was not being delivered.

Now, we can talk about how both sides are being manipulated.  That is clear as day.  Palpatine likely caused all of the complaints held by the Separatists.  He likely orchestrated problems, then orchestrated the slow responses of the Republic Senate.  The same sort of thing he was doing with Naboo.  He likely encouraged the Trade Federation (indirectly) to blockade the planet.  He then helped to slow any response in the senate.  He was likely trying to drive Naboo to the Separatists.  This occurred right in front of your eyes in the movie.  Amidala called out the Trade Federation in the Republic Senate, and the Trade Federation (members of the Republic) denied the accusation.  He did this several times.  Republic worlds in dire need of supplies/aid/protection/etc would cry out for help from the Republic, but the Republic would debate the situation, send people to investigate, debate who was going to pay to help, etc.  Then the CIS would step in and provide the supplies/aid/protection/etc.  Palpatine sent Dooku to infiltrate the CIS and help guide them towards the war he wanted.  The CIS systems/senate didn't want a war with the Republic.  They just wanted a peaceful existence.  Dooku convinced them that the Republic would start a war to reclaim their worlds.  He convinced them to work with the banking clans to borrow hordes of cash (which they couldn't afford) in order to fund a massive army through the Techno Union and other sources in order to protect themselves from a Republic army (that no one knew about yet).  Dooku had a seperate council that he lead that was made up of members of the Union, Geonosis, the Trade Federation, etc.  Those are the individuals killed by Anakin on Mustafar.  They were not the CIS senate.

The CIS senate did NOT want war.  Dooku/Palpatine wanted and needed the war.  The CIS did not start the war, they were attacked by the Republic.  After the war started, they tried multiple times to find a peaceful resolution.  They sent emissaries of peace.  They agreed to peace talks.  They invited peace emissaries and Jedi to meet with them about obtaining peace.  Dooku/Palpatine undermined these efforts.  Had Dooku used the army offensively, the senate would have likely opposed this and cut ties with him, the rest of the council, and sought peace with the Republic.  Because of this, Palpatine needed the Republic to attack first.  The Republic needed to be the aggressors so the CIS could simply defend themselves, thus unleashing the massive droid army.

The fact is the Jedi did NOT have to go to war.  They chose to.  The Jedi were not defending anyone on Geonosis, they were leading an invasion and killing people.  That seems very unjedi like.

They could have refused.  They could have resisted.  They could have actually met with or even defected to the CIS who's senate seemed more in line with the Jedi than the Republic did.

Yes, Palpatine was playing both sides in order to create this scenario, but to say that it would have absolutely played out the way it did is silly.  The Jedi had options, they just choose not to pursue any.  They took the path of least resistance and ended up doing something that flies in the face of the Jedi Code.  Had they rebelled with the CIS, everything might have played out in a similar way.  Dooku and his council take control of the CIS military (control they already had to be honest) and continue the war with the Republic.  The Republic, lead by Palpatine, would have still fought the war, and would have still blamed the CIS.  The CIS senate would call for peace, but it would be ignored by the Republic.  Palpatine would likely order Order 66 much earlier and send part of the clone army to CIS worlds in order to kill the Jedi.

The end result is much the same, but at least the Jedi could have died on the side of right instead of as a force for evil.

However, it's possible that the Jedi backing the CIS, showing that the Republic was no longer a democracy and being control by the Sith who also had a hand in building the droid army and showing that it was all a long con may have convinced citizens of the Republic to overthrow Palpatine...but I'm not sure how.  The only large scale armies were both controlled by him.  If anything, the clone wars would have likely ended much quicker, and the Empire would have been established earlier with the Rebellion also starting earlier.

You see, I'm not ignoring the fact that Palpatine was playing both sides.  But unlike you, I'm not ignoring the fact that leading an army goes against the Jedi code, or ignoring the fact that the Jedi have a say in the matter and made the choice that ultimately made the least amount of sense for what they represented.  The Jedi had options, and basically any of them made more sense than what they ultimately chose to do.

Nope. The CIS was building a droid Army specifically to threaten the Republic and hold it hostage. It was not for "defense" it was for offense. They were deliberately preparing for war. This is explicitly stated by Dooku himself. 

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4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

I dunno. To me it seems like complaining that we didn't get a scene where Luke did or didn't get landing permission on Cloud City the way we got with the Falcon.

1. I'm not complaining, pointing out flaws isn't complaining automatically.  You forget that I said multiple times that I don't really care that it's a scene that doesn't have any payoff later, but that doesn't mean it's not a flaw in the storytelling.

2.  "May I have permission to land?"  is considerably different from "Who/why/how did this army suddenly pop up, just in the nick of time for us to use it?"   One is a screen wipe, the other is something that was given a scene that lasted several minutes of screen time, denoting it's supposed to be An Important Detail.  And in good storytelling, you generally follow up on things you introduce, otherwise why bother setting it up as something suspicious?   I mean if it's supposed to just be "Yeah we need an army, so let's just have one."  They could easily have it be something like "Gosh, sure is a good thing we passed that Emergency Clone Army Bill in the Senate 3 years ago, and approved funding for this legion of troops!  Because boy-howdy do we need them now!"  That's how you should just "introduce the convenient counter-army" if that's all you are trying to accomplish.

But that's not the scene as presented.  They tie it into all the other intrigue, deception, and espionage.  By having it be initiated by a Jedi Master we never see, was reported to have died, and did so without the Council's instructions.  And when this information is presented, the 2 Jedi Masters look at each other with a very Significant Look.   You know what, I'll just let the scene speak for itself.

 

So I mean during the conversation, they drop tons of hints of this being more than "just a way to make an army"   They learn the template is the very assassin they have been hunting, so that's an immediate red flag about who authorized the clone production.   They learn that the order was supposedly placed by a Jedi Master after he was dead with the authorization of the Jedi Order, something they most definitely say is false.  So we have a corpse, or possible a ghost, signing off on production of clones, using a known assassin, that has recently attempted to kill a seated Senator of the Republic, using authority that he didn't have, behind the back of the Order he used to authorize the....order.    EVERYTHING in the scene is presented as a clue they should follow on, to figure out what is really going on.  The characters themselves even behave in such a way.  Kenobi is cautiously suspicious of the Kamino representative as he is leaving the facility, glancing back in a classic, suspicious style.  

So it's far more important than "what docking platform did Luke land on in Cloud City" (though I find that a funny comparison, because I'd bet a significant amount of money that a disturbing percentage of the fanbase has OBSESSED over a detail like that, for decades.  Because Star Wars)   Everything about it, if you are looking at it from a storytelling structure viewpoint, suggests that there should be a scene later, probably somewhere in act 2 of Revenge of the Sith, that would link the production of the clones, to Palpatine, and then to the grand conspiracy.   Perhaps the person who learns this is then tragically killed, before they can provide that information, perhaps revealing a traitor at that point, via the killing to protect the secret.   Or perhaps it's the straw that breaks the camels back, to finally galvanize the Jedi to actually go and try and arrest Palps.   Or maybe it's a bit of information that Padme finds, and it's part of the wedge that drives her and Anakin apart, given his defensive nature of the Chancellor.    Any of those would be fine, and would actually pay off the planted plot seed that is the Secret of the Clone Production.

But it doesn't, it never comes up again.  Which makes it a pointless scene, narratively speaking, because the information presented has no bearing on anything else in the story.  So why have it?  Chekov's Gun.

And again, I don't actually CARE that it's there.  The movie has plenty of flaws from start to finish, but I personally enjoy the prequels, and I think they are a lot better than most rabid fanboys make them out to be.  They're not great films, by any stretch of the imagination.  And this is one of the flaws.   And again, I'm fine with giving the film the benefit of the doubt.  Movie making is a messy, insane process.  Perhaps it was going to have a more developed arc, but it got cut for time, or it got removed in a script re-write, but they forgot to scrub that scene's references to it between takes.   Maybe Lucas was really high that day, and just changed gears mid-scene.  Maybe they left it open because they knew they were going to make the Clone Wars cartoon, and figured that would be a main plot there.  Who knows.  It's not a deal breaker for the film, but it is a problem with the narrative structure of it.

 

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2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

1. I'm not complaining, pointing out flaws isn't complaining automatically.  You forget that I said multiple times that I don't really care that it's a scene that doesn't have any payoff later, but that doesn't mean it's not a flaw in the storytelling.

2.  "May I have permission to land?"  is considerably different from "Who/why/how did this army suddenly pop up, just in the nick of time for us to use it?"   One is a screen wipe, the other is something that was given a scene that lasted several minutes of screen time, denoting it's supposed to be An Important Detail.  And in good storytelling, you generally follow up on things you introduce, otherwise why bother setting it up as something suspicious?   I mean if it's supposed to just be "Yeah we need an army, so let's just have one."  They could easily have it be something like "Gosh, sure is a good thing we passed that Emergency Clone Army Bill in the Senate 3 years ago, and approved funding for this legion of troops!  Because boy-howdy do we need them now!"  That's how you should just "introduce the convenient counter-army" if that's all you are trying to accomplish.

But that's not the scene as presented.  They tie it into all the other intrigue, deception, and espionage.  By having it be initiated by a Jedi Master we never see, was reported to have died, and did so without the Council's instructions.  And when this information is presented, the 2 Jedi Masters look at each other with a very Significant Look.   You know what, I'll just let the scene speak for itself.

 

So I mean during the conversation, they drop tons of hints of this being more than "just a way to make an army"   They learn the template is the very assassin they have been hunting, so that's an immediate red flag about who authorized the clone production.   They learn that the order was supposedly placed by a Jedi Master after he was dead with the authorization of the Jedi Order, something they most definitely say is false.  So we have a corpse, or possible a ghost, signing off on production of clones, using a known assassin, that has recently attempted to kill a seated Senator of the Republic, using authority that he didn't have, behind the back of the Order he used to authorize the....order.    EVERYTHING in the scene is presented as a clue they should follow on, to figure out what is really going on.  The characters themselves even behave in such a way.  Kenobi is cautiously suspicious of the Kamino representative as he is leaving the facility, glancing back in a classic, suspicious style.  

So it's far more important than "what docking platform did Luke land on in Cloud City" (though I find that a funny comparison, because I'd bet a significant amount of money that a disturbing percentage of the fanbase has OBSESSED over a detail like that, for decades.  Because Star Wars)   Everything about it, if you are looking at it from a storytelling structure viewpoint, suggests that there should be a scene later, probably somewhere in act 2 of Revenge of the Sith, that would link the production of the clones, to Palpatine, and then to the grand conspiracy.   Perhaps the person who learns this is then tragically killed, before they can provide that information, perhaps revealing a traitor at that point, via the killing to protect the secret.   Or perhaps it's the straw that breaks the camels back, to finally galvanize the Jedi to actually go and try and arrest Palps.   Or maybe it's a bit of information that Padme finds, and it's part of the wedge that drives her and Anakin apart, given his defensive nature of the Chancellor.    Any of those would be fine, and would actually pay off the planted plot seed that is the Secret of the Clone Production.

But it doesn't, it never comes up again.  Which makes it a pointless scene, narratively speaking, because the information presented has no bearing on anything else in the story.  So why have it?  Chekov's Gun.

And again, I don't actually CARE that it's there.  The movie has plenty of flaws from start to finish, but I personally enjoy the prequels, and I think they are a lot better than most rabid fanboys make them out to be.  They're not great films, by any stretch of the imagination.  And this is one of the flaws.   And again, I'm fine with giving the film the benefit of the doubt.  Movie making is a messy, insane process.  Perhaps it was going to have a more developed arc, but it got cut for time, or it got removed in a script re-write, but they forgot to scrub that scene's references to it between takes.   Maybe Lucas was really high that day, and just changed gears mid-scene.  Maybe they left it open because they knew they were going to make the Clone Wars cartoon, and figured that would be a main plot there.  Who knows.  It's not a deal breaker for the film, but it is a problem with the narrative structure of it.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about. It is just weird. It feels like there was a whole plot line they planned on pursuing and just dropped. It is all Dark and Ominous Revelation. Oh never mind we will just use these convenient soldiers. Also I know people who have worked in government procurement. It is weird to have no one keeping tabs on things...It is a thread that could have been interesting to follow as a secondary plot in the cartoon.

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4 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

You see, I'm not ignoring the fact that Palpatine was playing both sides.  But unlike you, I'm not ignoring the fact that leading an army goes against the Jedi code, or ignoring the fact that the Jedi have a say in the matter and made the choice that ultimately made the least amount of sense for what they represented.  The Jedi had options, and basically any of them made more sense than what they ultimately chose to do.

You've shown every sign of not having understood what I wrote.

Also, your pathetic condescension - about SW, of all things! - is hilarious in many ways.

 

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8 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Look, there is nothing wrong with head canon, but you can't bring head canon to a debate about what is happening in actual canon.  There is canon information, it is irrefutable.  If you choose not to believe fact, that is fine, then step out of the conversation as you simply aren't participating at the same level as everyone else.

The trade federation is part of the republic.  Geonosis was not.  The Separatists had valid complaints and simply wanted to exist peacefully.  Not all members of the CIS were republic/former republic worlds.  The CIS was building a droid army for defense against the Republic.  The Geonosis invasion and subsequent occupation (as Geonosis wasn't Republic, it was an occupation) is what started the war.  This is a war that the Republic started.  A war they started to save 3 individuals who were tresspassing, sabotaging, and spying in foreign territory.  A battle where they ultimately lost way more than they saved (170+ Jedi died on Geonosis).

The systems that were part of the CIS had actual reasons to leave the Republic.  They had needs that were being ignored.  Problems were not being dealt with.  Aid was not being delivered.

Now, we can talk about how both sides are being manipulated.  That is clear as day.  Palpatine likely caused all of the complaints held by the Separatists.  He likely orchestrated problems, then orchestrated the slow responses of the Republic Senate.  The same sort of thing he was doing with Naboo.  He likely encouraged the Trade Federation (indirectly) to blockade the planet.  He then helped to slow any response in the senate.  He was likely trying to drive Naboo to the Separatists.  This occurred right in front of your eyes in the movie.  Amidala called out the Trade Federation in the Republic Senate, and the Trade Federation (members of the Republic) denied the accusation.  He did this several times.  Republic worlds in dire need of supplies/aid/protection/etc would cry out for help from the Republic, but the Republic would debate the situation, send people to investigate, debate who was going to pay to help, etc.  Then the CIS would step in and provide the supplies/aid/protection/etc.  Palpatine sent Dooku to infiltrate the CIS and help guide them towards the war he wanted.  The CIS systems/senate didn't want a war with the Republic.  They just wanted a peaceful existence.  Dooku convinced them that the Republic would start a war to reclaim their worlds.  He convinced them to work with the banking clans to borrow hordes of cash (which they couldn't afford) in order to fund a massive army through the Techno Union and other sources in order to protect themselves from a Republic army (that no one knew about yet).  Dooku had a seperate council that he lead that was made up of members of the Union, Geonosis, the Trade Federation, etc.  Those are the individuals killed by Anakin on Mustafar.  They were not the CIS senate.

The CIS senate did NOT want war.  Dooku/Palpatine wanted and needed the war.  The CIS did not start the war, they were attacked by the Republic.  After the war started, they tried multiple times to find a peaceful resolution.  They sent emissaries of peace.  They agreed to peace talks.  They invited peace emissaries and Jedi to meet with them about obtaining peace.  Dooku/Palpatine undermined these efforts.  Had Dooku used the army offensively, the senate would have likely opposed this and cut ties with him, the rest of the council, and sought peace with the Republic.  Because of this, Palpatine needed the Republic to attack first.  The Republic needed to be the aggressors so the CIS could simply defend themselves, thus unleashing the massive droid army.

The fact is the Jedi did NOT have to go to war.  They chose to.  The Jedi were not defending anyone on Geonosis, they were leading an invasion and killing people.  That seems very unjedi like.

They could have refused.  They could have resisted.  They could have actually met with or even defected to the CIS who's senate seemed more in line with the Jedi than the Republic did.

Yes, Palpatine was playing both sides in order to create this scenario, but to say that it would have absolutely played out the way it did is silly.  The Jedi had options, they just choose not to pursue any.  They took the path of least resistance and ended up doing something that flies in the face of the Jedi Code.  Had they rebelled with the CIS, everything might have played out in a similar way.  Dooku and his council take control of the CIS military (control they already had to be honest) and continue the war with the Republic.  The Republic, lead by Palpatine, would have still fought the war, and would have still blamed the CIS.  The CIS senate would call for peace, but it would be ignored by the Republic.  Palpatine would likely order Order 66 much earlier and send part of the clone army to CIS worlds in order to kill the Jedi.

The end result is much the same, but at least the Jedi could have died on the side of right instead of as a force for evil.

However, it's possible that the Jedi backing the CIS, showing that the Republic was no longer a democracy and being control by the Sith who also had a hand in building the droid army and showing that it was all a long con may have convinced citizens of the Republic to overthrow Palpatine...but I'm not sure how.  The only large scale armies were both controlled by him.  If anything, the clone wars would have likely ended much quicker, and the Empire would have been established earlier with the Rebellion also starting earlier.

You see, I'm not ignoring the fact that Palpatine was playing both sides.  But unlike you, I'm not ignoring the fact that leading an army goes against the Jedi code, or ignoring the fact that the Jedi have a say in the matter and made the choice that ultimately made the least amount of sense for what they represented.  The Jedi had options, and basically any of them made more sense than what they ultimately chose to do.

Way to ignore major things. Like Obiwan seeing the planning of the seperatists. Seeing the droid army being built. The seperatists were already moving to war. 

So while i find it weird the Jedi just accepted the army. Dont act like the Geonosians were innocent. They were planning to go to war and attack the republic.

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Collapse of the Republic makes it clear that, while the Republic's invasion of Geonosis was the first act of military aggression in what would be the Clone Wars, the Republic was retaliating for the economic warfare that the Separatists had been steadily leveraging against them. In effect, the Republic was being cut off from raw materials and foodstuffs (which, in many cases, technically belonged to the Separatists).

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It seems pretty black and white to me. The CIS were patsies. So was the Republic. And the Jedi were the ones being duped.
There wouldn't even have been a CIS that was good or bad or neutral or whatever if the Sith hadn't spent years creating the kind of political climate in which such a faction would have to be formed.  That was what the Trade Federation stuff on Naboo was partly about, showing the Republic as ineffective. Palpatine had his own apprentice first stoke the fires of seccession and then had him lead this faction.

It doesn't matter if the CIS were good or bad or inbetween. They wouldn't have existed if Palpatine wouldn't have created them to help kill the Jedi Order and take over the Republic.
Neither side was right or wrong because neither side ever got a real say in whether they were going to war or not. It was decided by the Sith Lords leading both factions.

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On 6/27/2019 at 3:18 AM, Daeglan said:

This is exactly what I was talking about. It is just weird. It feels like there was a whole plot line they planned on pursuing and just dropped. It is all Dark and Ominous Revelation. Oh never mind we will just use these convenient soldiers. Also I know people who have worked in government procurement. It is weird to have no one keeping tabs on things...It is a thread that could have been interesting to follow as a secondary plot in the cartoon.

You do have to keep in mind that it was Supreme Chancellor Palpatine who decided to use this army and that it was him that put the Jedi in charge of this army.

And I'm sure there were Senatorial committies and whatever, filled with Sheev's cronies, who were "investigating" and "keeping tabs on things".

People keep forgetting that this is a story where the heroes are actually working for the main villain.

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Just now, micheldebruyn said:

You do have to keep in mind that it was Supreme Chancellor Palpatine who decided to use this army and that it was him that put the Jedi in charge of this army.

And I'm sure there were Senatorial committies and whatever, filled with Sheev's cronies, who were "investigating" and "keeping tabs on things".

People keep forgetting that this is a story where the heroes are actually working for the main villain.

You ignore an important option. The Jedi could have said to the Chancelor "We can't fight a war for you."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C1dIHTxdo

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I don't think they could have refuse, nor do the personal morals of Qui-Gon Jinn say anything about what the  Jedi Council can or cannot do when the Republic asks.

You're also misquoting him. He says "I can't fight a war for you." Him, on his own. 

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