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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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They don't have the resources for an investigation,  they barely have the resources to fight this war. And if they don't use the clones - who I consider slaves - then millions will be subjugated and/or killed by the Separatists. I've yet to see a single *workable* suggestion for what the Jedi should have done differently with the army. 

Not using the army would be insubordination or even treason, as they've been ordered by the chancellor to act as generals. So immediately the Jedi would lose their investigate mandate,  making efforts to find out more about the clones not just immensely difficult but also illegal.

Meanwhile the Separatists are freely putting people in camps, enslaving entire species,  occupying worlds without any effective opposing force standing against them.

 

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

I've yet to see a single *workable* suggestion for what the Jedi should have done differently with the army.

Most of what's seen amounts to "well, the Jedi have just let the Republic burn to the ground because it was obviously corrupt."

All while ignoring that not only was the Confederacy generally worse on all accounts, or that much of the serious corruption on the Republic Senate was due to the years-long manipulations of Sidious in his long-term scheme to subvert the Republic and wipe out the Jedi.  So if the Jedi had sat out the war entirely, the end result is unchanged, with the Republic falling (name might be different, but the end result would still be much like the Empire in terms of being a totalitarian regime) and the Jedi getting wiped out anyway when the now-victorious Confederacy comes a knockin' on their temple doors because Sidious (the guy masterminding the whole thing by playing all sides against each other) wasn't going to let them hang around to threaten his new empire.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

You're spot on, but lets use real life to run an example.

The US is really positioning itself for a war with Iran right now.  We almost made a an attack against them.  This would certainly make them curious of what the US intentions are.

If someone from Iran flew a plane into the US and landed in some field somewhere, you can bet the US government would detain them.  If they rightly determined he was a spy, and if Iran then had 2 more agents infiltrate the country, break into military compounds, damage equipment at a military manufacturing company, spy on high ranking government officials, and attempt to rescue the first spy, but fail and get captured.  If all that occurred, and then the US had a trial, determined them guilty, and sentanced them to death (which the US has done), would that give Iran the right to launch a full scale invasion of the US?  Or perhaps pay for someone else (say Russia) to invade the US?

Anakin, Padme, and Obi were landing on sovereign soil without authorization.  They were then infiltrating military facilities, spying on leaders, and sending information back to their faction.  In a time of war with open hostilities.

Bold for emphasis.  In a time of open war, with open hostilities, which I think they had at that time, considering the hostile control of Naboo in the previous films, the clear buildup of droids to attack Republic worlds, and I think Dooku's blatant declaration that they plan on attacking the Republic when he's talking to Floating Kenobi.   Plus, one important bit of information that you left out in your example, is that in this US/Iran comparison, the spy's found and uncovered, and relayed plans and documents, that showed the US was clearly planning on an invasion of Iran, long before any spies showed up and uncovered their secrets.   So yeah, if an Iranian spy said:

"Yo!  They got plans for this huge bomb thing!  And they're going to use it on us!  Plus they've got like a HUGE robot army, all planned for deployment in our country!  Oh crap!  I'm busted! "    

Yeah, I'd say the Iranian people had justification to attack.   Heck, the US has attacked various locations in the world for equivalent level of "reliable information" about a "target of high interest" and all that jargon.  

 If they've already entered a war, or at least open conflict, I think it's pretty moot at that point, on the legality angle.  But I don't know what "right' it would give the Republic at that point, but the question I was responding to was if the Jedi were there legally.  Legally in which country?  As far as having the authority and backing of the Republic to do what they did, yes they were there legally.   But the Republic didn't attack the planet with an entire army, just to save those 3 people, just like World War 1 didn't really happen "just because" Arch Duke Ferdinand was killed.  There were all kinds of further entangling layers to that conflict, that was just the public spark that seemed to galvanize it.  But BOTH sides had been butting heads for years previously, politically and militarily.

 

Actually, let's make this a little bit more accurate, given your real world example.   A member country of the United Nations, previously held another country of the UN under illegal embargo, to attempt to take control of it by force, but hidden from the UN.   The 2 UN inspectors sent to see what was actually going on, on the ground, are summarily contained against their will, gassed with the intent to kill them, and then when they escape the ambush, are continuously assaulted by the hostile nation (we'll call them HN for short).   The UN inspectors (Jedi), proceed to escape confinement, and get in touch with the captured nation (CN), and explain what the HN has done.  They proceed to assist the CN with fighting off the massive army brought there to invade and conquer their planet unprovoked.   This information is then presented to the UN later, via the first hand testimonies of the inspectors and the head of the CN.    The representatives of the HN, having broken several UN rules about, you know, openly attacking another member without provocation, are then found to have ties to a larger entity, who apparently orchestrated the attack/embargo in the first place.  This intel, intel of a "reliable type regarding persons of interest" empower the UN to send other inspectors to figure out what is going on.  Those inspectors, following leads related to tangible evidence they find from previous situations, and that information, leads them to a country, known to have ties with a large faction of countries, that are directly, and vocally opposed to the UN.   The information obtained suggests that further, larger scale hostilities are being planned, and directly implemented by this country and it's allies, which include the HN from previous engagements.   The inspectors, getting this information to the UN, are summarily captured, because they found out the other country was doing bad things, and planning more.   

So, given ALL the actual context of the situation up to that point, and assuming that, again, if we're using Real World logic, the HN was probably placed under heavy sanctions, and told to not do things like, you know, plan a hostile takeover and invasion of the UN's nations again, finding out that they have indeed continued to work against the safety and prosperity of the UN, can you really say that the UN wouldn't have "the right" to attack?  Given all that information and context?   Because many modern countries have done exactly that, based on far less information, and most (not all, but most) generally feel it was a justified stance to take.   

 

And, that's the last I have to say on the matter, as making it Real World tends to get....prickly, and it's all Star Wars, which isn't mean to be 100% real world accurate.  So ultimately who cares?

Edited by KungFuFerret

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2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

You're spot on, but lets use real life to run an example.

The US is really positioning itself for a war with Iran right now.  We almost made a an attack against them.  This would certainly make them curious of what the US intentions are.

If someone from Iran flew a plane into the US and landed in some field somewhere, you can bet the US government would detain them.  If they rightly determined he was a spy, and if Iran then had 2 more agents infiltrate the country, break into military compounds, damage equipment at a military manufacturing company, spy on high ranking government officials, and attempt to rescue the first spy, but fail and get captured.  If all that occurred, and then the US had a trial, determined them guilty, and sentanced them to death (which the US has done), would that give Iran the right to launch a full scale invasion of the US?  Or perhaps pay for someone else (say Russia) to invade the US?

Anakin, Padme, and Obi were landing on sovereign soil without authorization.  They were then infiltrating military facilities, spying on leaders, and sending information back to their faction.  In a time of war with open hostilities.  There are all sorts of pretenses they could have used to land peacefully and hold a conversation with the geonosians...but none of that happened.  They infiltrated a capital world, broke into military facilities, spied on high ranking targets.

Dozens if not hundreds of American spies have been captured and executed.  Not once has the US government launched a full scale war to save one of their lives.  They'd have no ground to as the spying was the first hostile action.  If anything, the Republic should have at least contacted the Seperatists and tried to negotiate for their release through proper channels...but instead they just drop out of hyperspace with an army and launch a full scale war.  It wasn't even a special forces extraction of the prisoners...they landed siege weapons and started a massive conflict.

You don't start a galaxy wide war over 3 people that were doing illegal things in a foreign country.  It doesn't compute.

This is one of many problems with the prequels.  It makes no sense to go to war with an army you know nothing about.  It makes even less sense to go to war with an shady, questionable force that was based on someone that is clearly working with the enemy.

The discovery of this army should have started intensive investigations as to the validity of any of it.  Who really ordered it, when, how did they pay for it, is there some ulterior motive to it?  Just the fact that this army conveniently materializes out of thin air at the very moment when you could use an army to invade a planet is sketchy.  Yet the master detective Jedi don't even seem to question this.  They don't notice the greatest force of evil in the galaxy sitting right in front of them.

 

The best, and really only way you can explain any of it is to just blame it all on Palpatine being a master manipulator which is clearly what Lucas wanted.  Don't think to hard, just accept the bad guy is all powerful and all knowing.

That and the Jedi being morons. Which I find problematic. You can have your good guys make sub-optimal choices with out making them look like morons.

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4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

They don't have the resources for an investigation,  they barely have the resources to fight this war. And if they don't use the clones - who I consider slaves - then millions will be subjugated and/or killed by the Separatists. I've yet to see a single *workable* suggestion for what the Jedi should have done differently with the army. 

Not using the army would be insubordination or even treason, as they've been ordered by the chancellor to act as generals. So immediately the Jedi would lose their investigate mandate,  making efforts to find out more about the clones not just immensely difficult but also illegal.

Meanwhile the Separatists are freely putting people in camps, enslaving entire species,  occupying worlds without any effective opposing force standing against them.

 

They don't have the resources for an investigation?  They funded the creation of a massive army along with weapons, armor, vehicles, ships, etc... and no one noticed the missing funds. 

They use the clones to start the all out open war.  Prior to the invasion on geonosis, there were minor conflicts, but no war.  The republic uses this new clone army, an army of clones based on an enemy agent, to invade a capitol world of the separatists.  The republic started the full-scale war.

The Jedi had plenty of non-combatants that could have investigated the clone army and figured out what was going on, but instead, they just went with it.  They could have rebelled with the separatists.  They could have simply dispersed and vanished.  I mean the ultimate outcome they supported killed them off, there are a number of other options they could have taken.  Becoming enemies of the state by sticking with their passive nature would seem logical instead of becoming weapons of war in an obvious manipulation.

Also, the CIS is such an odd element in the movies and other media.  The separatists were upset about the corruption and inability to act to solve major issues.  But then you take Naboo which is being strangled by the CIS.  Part of the CIS argument is that outer rim worlds are being strangled by the banking clan and trade guilds...but then the CIS is led by and represented by the banking clan and trade guilds that are strangling world.  Lucas really bungled this up.  The Clone Wars sometimes tried to straighten this out and show that the CIS was just people that wanted to go about their lives without the Republic mucking things up....but then other times the CIS was just evil war mongers.

@KungFuFerret  Your post is excellent, and I know you said your peace, however...

When it comes to UN inspectors, deals are made.  The country they are inspecting has agreed to the inspections and is knowledgeable about them.  The UN can't send in armed guards to spy on people, destroy factories, etc.  And in those cases, the country that the UN is inspecting has agreed not to make or use certain weapons.

Geonosis was not a Republic world.  The Republic had no authority over them.  There was no deal about what they could and couldn't make.  There was no formal agreement to allow surprise inspections.  Obi, Anakin, and Padme were not unarmed inspectors on a peaceful mission.  They were spies infiltrating a foreign entity.

We have no idea what the droid army was going to be used for.  It's never stated that they plan to invade the Republic.  Heck, if they wanted to do that, they could have long before as they have a giant army already and the Republic has nothing until one conveniently appears.  The weapons they were building might have just been to defend their own worlds.  Had the CIS invaded the republic and started occupying worlds, then immediate use of the mystery army seems logical if not still warranting a severe review of the situation.  But to use the mystery army to start a war seems odd.

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23 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

They don't have the resources for an investigation?  They funded the creation of a massive army along with weapons, armor, vehicles, ships, etc... and no one noticed the missing funds. 

They use the clones to start the all out open war.  Prior to the invasion on geonosis, there were minor conflicts, but no war.  The republic uses this new clone army, an army of clones based on an enemy agent, to invade a capitol world of the separatists.  The republic started the full-scale war.

The Jedi had plenty of non-combatants that could have investigated the clone army and figured out what was going on, but instead, they just went with it.  They could have rebelled with the separatists.  They could have simply dispersed and vanished.  I mean the ultimate outcome they supported killed them off, there are a number of other options they could have taken.  Becoming enemies of the state by sticking with their passive nature would seem logical instead of becoming weapons of war in an obvious manipulation.

Also, the CIS is such an odd element in the movies and other media.  The separatists were upset about the corruption and inability to act to solve major issues.  But then you take Naboo which is being strangled by the CIS.  Part of the CIS argument is that outer rim worlds are being strangled by the banking clan and trade guilds...but then the CIS is led by and represented by the banking clan and trade guilds that are strangling world.  Lucas really bungled this up.  The Clone Wars sometimes tried to straighten this out and show that the CIS was just people that wanted to go about their lives without the Republic mucking things up....but then other times the CIS was just evil war mongers.

@KungFuFerret  Your post is excellent, and I know you said your peace, however...

When it comes to UN inspectors, deals are made.  The country they are inspecting has agreed to the inspections and is knowledgeable about them.  The UN can't send in armed guards to spy on people, destroy factories, etc.  And in those cases, the country that the UN is inspecting has agreed not to make or use certain weapons.

Geonosis was not a Republic world.  The Republic had no authority over them.  There was no deal about what they could and couldn't make.  There was no formal agreement to allow surprise inspections.  Obi, Anakin, and Padme were not unarmed inspectors on a peaceful mission.  They were spies infiltrating a foreign entity.

We have no idea what the droid army was going to be used for.  It's never stated that they plan to invade the Republic.  Heck, if they wanted to do that, they could have long before as they have a giant army already and the Republic has nothing until one conveniently appears.  The weapons they were building might have just been to defend their own worlds.  Had the CIS invaded the republic and started occupying worlds, then immediate use of the mystery army seems logical if not still warranting a severe review of the situation.  But to use the mystery army to start a war seems odd.

The CIS was made up of Republic worlds and organizations that were trying to illegally secede from the Republic, using armed force, hence the term “Separatists”, not “independents”. They weren’t an outside entity completely unconnected to the Republic. They were rebellious worlds betraying the Republic and essentially instigating a civil war, much like when the South tried to secede from the Union prior to the US Civil War. The key difference being that the Separatists were being manipulated by the Sith to create a “False Flag” conflict in order to seize control of the Republic.

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There's no indication that the army was paid for with Jedi funds.

That the Jedi were in a position to strike first doesn't mean that the army wasn't always going to be committed to the war effort.  Ditto the Jedi.

And as I talked about workable alternatives I'm just going to point and laugh at "let the civilians be murdered and just bounce". Come on,  what is that even.

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38 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

There's no indication that the army was paid for with Jedi funds.

That the Jedi were in a position to strike first doesn't mean that the army wasn't always going to be committed to the war effort.  Ditto the Jedi.

And as I talked about workable alternatives I'm just going to point and laugh at "let the civilians be murdered and just bounce". Come on,  what is that even.

My issue is they were handed an army that was paid.for by....they say Syfo Dyas. Where did the funds come from? Who designed the equipment? No one noticed an entire army of gear being made? No one questioned it? The cia maintains an idea what arms companies are making so for example would notice a sudden massive build up.

 

No one seems to question this stuff before using this army...

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

We have no idea what the droid army was going to be used for.  It's never stated that they plan to invade the Republic.  

.................................🤨

 

Droids of the same design of the ones used on Naboo, visual confirmation the Trade Federation is there, AND that they want a seated Senator of the Republican Senate killed, something that Dooku agrees to as part of their arangement.  Declaring it to be the largest army in the galaxy, and that it will overwhelm the Jedi, and force the Republic to any of their demands.....so...where is the lack of declaration of intent there?   Because I'm missing it behind all that really blatant declaration of intent.

I mean what do you think spies do?  They obtain information from governments that don't want that information known, so that it can be used to thwart their plans...plans like swarming the Republic with a droid army (something they've already done once, and show every sign of doing again, based on the information the spy (Kenobi) is hearing.  

Do they have to send out a tweet?  Update their facebook status from It's Complicated to It's War, before you will agree that they were clearly intending to attack the Republic, and that this information was clearly  obtained, and would be enough to galvanize a military response?    I mean, I don't know what else you want, other than all of the Separatists all flashing the Chancellor at once in a video conference and flipping him off, declaring they're going to come egg his house.

I mean, Lucas isn't famous for subtlety, especially not in the prequels, so I'm baffled, flabbergasted, absolutely flumuxed, that you can say there was no indication of what the badguys were planning on doing with a giant robot army, in Attack of the Clones.  Because it was painted with such broad, obvious strokes, that a literal child could figure it out.  Which was the intended audience for the movie.    

So, yeah I'm at a loss of what else would need to be presented to you to warrant a military response. 

Edited by KungFuFerret

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

My issue is they were handed an army that was paid.for by....they say Syfo Dyas. Where did the funds come from? Who designed the equipment? No one noticed an entire army of gear being made? No one questioned it? The cia maintains an idea what arms companies are making so for example would notice a sudden massive build up.

 

No one seems to question this stuff before using this army...

When? They only learn about the army hours before a dire need for it arises.

And in SW, the CIA answers to the same guy who gives the Jedi their missions, and who wants all of them dead. OF COURSE the Jedi don't learn about it. Their boss keeps them busy doing other stuff.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

When? They only learn about the army hours before a dire need for it arises.

And in SW, the CIA answers to the same guy who gives the Jedi their missions, and who wants all of them dead. OF COURSE the Jedi don't learn about it. Their boss keeps them busy doing other stuff.

 

 

So your doing.your job and you are following a guy working with you enemy who is the template for the army that convenietly shows up just when you need them...and you are made into generals to lead them...no reason to question that at all

Edited by Daeglan

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44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So your doing.your job and you are following a guy working with you enemy who is the template for the army that convenietly shows up just when you need them...and you are made into generals to lead them...no reason to question that at all

You're trying to make me defend something I haven't said.

Why are you like that?

 

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So your doing.your job and you are following a guy working with you enemy who is the template for the army that convenietly shows up just when you need them...and you are made into generals to lead them...no reason to question that at all

Now you know why I have no interest in roleplaying during the Clone Wars: my suspension of disbelief had been thoroughly shattered. The CIS is horribly written,  the Jedi are portrayed as moronic,  and Palpatine implausibly manages everything himself (with the aid of an idiot named Dooku). In short,  it's all a bunch of crap in my eyes that would take me right out of the game if I wasn't stinking drunk while playing. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're trying to make me defend something I haven't said.

Why are you like that?

 

Your trying to say the republic cia teports to palpatine. I am saying the situation should have made the Jedi back up and question everything.

Edited by Daeglan

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7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Your trying to say the republic cia teports to palpatine. I am saying the situation should have made the Jedi back up and question everything.

Yes, if the films were based on 100% realism and logic, they should've done that.  But they don't, and they never have.  The film had a roughly 2 hour run time, and had the final requirement of "Begun, the Clone War has." as the ending shot.  Because it's a prequel, and prequels are shackled by the stuff they are building up to.   

Yes, it's stupid that nobody followed up on a LOT of the plot threads that were exposed in this film.  But that doesn't matter, because the point was supposed to be "Political bloat, and sabotage from the inside, coupled with other factors, has lead to the Republic being forced into war.   If everything had gone right, it wouldn't have happened.  But everything didn't go right, because this is the beginning of The Dark Times in our history"   It's likely Lucas was very broadly comparing it to the fall of the Roman Empire, and all of the myriad of factors that lead to that collapse.   It's just that Lucas is...kind of a flighty dude from the 60s, who was a film student, not a historian or military/governmental strategist.  So it's not really a surprise that he screwed up a lot of stuff, trying to get to his end goal of "Begun, the Clone War has"

Does it make it messy?  Yes.   Does it really matter?  No. 

It's not the first, nor will it be the last film in history, to fall prey to the "Hey...wait a minute..." type of critique.   But since very few directors/writers are trying for 100% realism, and instead are simply trying to tell a story they have in their head, this is something that will always happen.

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Does it make it messy?  Yes.   Does it really matter?  No. 

This statement can be applied to the franchise as a whole.

After all, the original films were just a fairy tale in space, inspired by the action serials of the 1950's whose plots were often so flimsy that your average soap bubble had greater structural integrity.  Take away the decades of plot back-filling that the EU/Legends did, and the ever-so-sainted originals collapse just as fast (if not faster in some instances) than the prequels in terms of the so-called "realism" of the plot.

If anything, Lucas probably got a little too ambitious with regards to the plot of the prequels and setting up the disaster dominoes so that things progress to "Begun, The Clone War has."  Then again, it's not like there were that many dissenting voices around when he was making the prequels, and it's been shown that Lucas' ideas work best when there are people around to filter them, and willing to say, "No George, that's not going to work."

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I doubt there are more than a tiny handful of movies that really stand up to the rigorous examination that SF/F movies suffer in terms of plot and setting logic.

It's all fake, it's all a beautiful lie told to entrance you for the movie's duration. If we're lucky, really incredibly lucky, that experience leaves us with something worthwhile and lasting to feel, and to think about.

That a car in a shot had the wrong license plates or someone's comb-over kept switching sides during a conversation is so utterly besides the point.

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38 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I doubt there are more than a tiny handful of movies that really stand up to the rigorous examination that SF/F movies suffer in terms of plot and setting logic.

It's all fake, it's all a beautiful lie told to entrance you for the movie's duration. If we're lucky, really incredibly lucky, that experience leaves us with something worthwhile and lasting to feel, and to think about.

That a car in a shot had the wrong license plates or someone's comb-over kept switching sides during a conversation is so utterly besides the point.

Yeah, I personally don't care about things like errors in editing between takes, though some people who follow this franchise get too wound up in that junk.   I personally think the PT had it's hands tied, since it was charging head long towards a pre-determined outcome, and story consistency be darned.  Rogue One suffered from the same problem in my opinion, as did Solo, though for me, Solo was perfectly fine and fun, up until the last part where they shoehorned in the Rebellion angle, and the cameo character in the holovid conversation.   However for me at least, the prequel-itis symptoms in Solo weren't a significant determent to the rest of the story, so I still enjoyed it.  

    It's why I generally dislike prequels as a concept, as I'd rather they just told me something new, instead of rehashing old things, that were perfectly fine as background, historical information.    

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I think Solo makes A New Hope a worse movie by actually confirming that Chewie can and will rip off someone's arm, instead of leaving that ambiguous whether it's just Han messing with the droids.

 

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2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I think Solo makes A New Hope a worse movie by actually confirming that Chewie can and will rip off someone's arm, instead of leaving that ambiguous whether it's just Han messing with the droids.

 

Well, he does say "Wookiees are known to do that."  Which I took to be something that was common knowledge, based on frequent interactions with the species.  Sure he could be lying, but when you attribute behavior to an entire species as commonly know, that's usually do to some level of actual basis in fact.

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18 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The CIS was made up of Republic worlds and organizations that were trying to illegally secede from the Republic, using armed force, hence the term “Separatists”, not “independents”. They weren’t an outside entity completely unconnected to the Republic. They were rebellious worlds betraying the Republic and essentially instigating a civil war, much like when the South tried to secede from the Union prior to the US Civil War. The key difference being that the Separatists were being manipulated by the Sith to create a “False Flag” conflict in order to seize control of the Republic.

Geonosis was never part of the Republic.  CIS were not solely separatists.  They were also independent systems that didn't want to be part of the Republic.  The CIS recruited many non-republic entities to join it's faction.

While it's true that both sides were being played against each other by a master manipulator, the fact is the Jedi are responsible for several misstepss that made Palpatine's plan way easier.

18 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

There's no indication that the army was paid for with Jedi funds.

That the Jedi were in a position to strike first doesn't mean that the army wasn't always going to be committed to the war effort.  Ditto the Jedi.

And as I talked about workable alternatives I'm just going to point and laugh at "let the civilians be murdered and just bounce". Come on,  what is that even.

Who was murdering civilians?  The CIS was a group of systems that wanted independance from the Republic.  They accepted all sorts of various aliens.  There was no racism or genocide occurring.  The separatist senate was about peace, democracy, protecting the innocents.  They disagreed with the direction their leadership was heading, and opposed Dooku's plans.  But once the Republic started a war with them, they were forced to defend themselves.  The suffering of the clone war might never had occurred had the Republic not launched the attack on Geonosis.  An attack that the Jedi led.  Palpatine inserted Dooku into the CIS to manipulate their side.  Dooku got the CIS to work with the banking clans and techno-union under the pretense of defending themselves from the Republic, but in reality he was building a war machine.  The Separatists didn't want war, they didn't want conflict, they just wanted peace and democracy.  They helped suffering worlds, provided supplies and assistance to suffering worlds.  Don't forget that the Separatist Senate attempted to open peace negotiations with the Republic.

Had the Republic not started the war, it's likely the Separatists (who just wanted to peacefully co-exist) wouldn't have allowed the CIS to start the war, and if Dooku forced the issue, they likely would have cut ties with him and the union/clans.

This is where the Jedi could have stepped in.  Had the Jedi left the corrupt Republic and joined the actual Seperatists, they could have made an argument for peace.  Instead, they were conscripted into leading an army that caused suffering across countless worlds.  They could have actually defended the defenseless in the Separatists that simply wanted peace as would be the Jedi thing to do.  Instead they allowed the Separatists to be guided by evil forces while their own republic was also being guided by evil forces.  They saw the corruption, they saw the deadlock, they saw how the bureaucracy was failing Republic worlds...but they did nothing.  Then they joined the army and led the battles that started with a Republic attack on a foreign system.  Everything about it flew in the face of the Jedi code...yet they went willingly.  They didn't burn their draft cards.  They didn't cross the boarder into the CIS states.  They didn't conscientiously object to war.  They strapped on armor and started killing.  It was the most un-jedi like thing they could have done, and they did it.  They had options, but took the path of least resistance by actively starting and supporting a war against a peaceful collection of systems.

It's true that the CIS was developing a massive military force.  But this was a force their senate did not want to create.  They were forced, tricked, and manipulated into by Dooku.  Had the Jedi made a move for peace, they could have discovered this issue and stopped the entire conflict before it began.

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7 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Geonosis was never part of the Republic.  CIS were not solely separatists.  They were also independent systems that didn't want to be part of the Republic.  The CIS recruited many non-republic entities to join it's faction.

While it's true that both sides were being played against each other by a master manipulator, the fact is the Jedi are responsible for several misstepss that made Palpatine's plan way easier.

Who was murdering civilians?  The CIS was a group of systems that wanted independance from the Republic.  They accepted all sorts of various aliens.  There was no racism or genocide occurring.  The separatist senate was about peace, democracy, protecting the innocents.  They disagreed with the direction their leadership was heading, and opposed Dooku's plans.  But once the Republic started a war with them, they were forced to defend themselves.  The suffering of the clone war might never had occurred had the Republic not launched the attack on Geonosis.  An attack that the Jedi led.  Palpatine inserted Dooku into the CIS to manipulate their side.  Dooku got the CIS to work with the banking clans and techno-union under the pretense of defending themselves from the Republic, but in reality he was building a war machine.  The Separatists didn't want war, they didn't want conflict, they just wanted peace and democracy.  They helped suffering worlds, provided supplies and assistance to suffering worlds.  Don't forget that the Separatist Senate attempted to open peace negotiations with the Republic.

Had the Republic not started the war, it's likely the Separatists (who just wanted to peacefully co-exist) wouldn't have allowed the CIS to start the war, and if Dooku forced the issue, they likely would have cut ties with him and the union/clans.

This is where the Jedi could have stepped in.  Had the Jedi left the corrupt Republic and joined the actual Seperatists, they could have made an argument for peace.  Instead, they were conscripted into leading an army that caused suffering across countless worlds.  They could have actually defended the defenseless in the Separatists that simply wanted peace as would be the Jedi thing to do.  Instead they allowed the Separatists to be guided by evil forces while their own republic was also being guided by evil forces.  They saw the corruption, they saw the deadlock, they saw how the bureaucracy was failing Republic worlds...but they did nothing.  Then they joined the army and led the battles that started with a Republic attack on a foreign system.  Everything about it flew in the face of the Jedi code...yet they went willingly.  They didn't burn their draft cards.  They didn't cross the boarder into the CIS states.  They didn't conscientiously object to war.  They strapped on armor and started killing.  It was the most un-jedi like thing they could have done, and they did it.  They had options, but took the path of least resistance by actively starting and supporting a war against a peaceful collection of systems.

It's true that the CIS was developing a massive military force.  But this was a force their senate did not want to create.  They were forced, tricked, and manipulated into by Dooku.  Had the Jedi made a move for peace, they could have discovered this issue and stopped the entire conflict before it began.

Apparently civilians died on Naboo. 

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22 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Most of what's seen amounts to "well, the Jedi have just let the Republic burn to the ground because it was obviously corrupt."

All while ignoring that not only was the Confederacy generally worse on all accounts, or that much of the serious corruption on the Republic Senate was due to the years-long manipulations of Sidious in his long-term scheme to subvert the Republic and wipe out the Jedi.  So if the Jedi had sat out the war entirely, the end result is unchanged, with the Republic falling (name might be different, but the end result would still be much like the Empire in terms of being a totalitarian regime) and the Jedi getting wiped out anyway when the now-victorious Confederacy comes a knockin' on their temple doors because Sidious (the guy masterminding the whole thing by playing all sides against each other) wasn't going to let them hang around to threaten his new empire.

Yeah i dont know what the best solution is. But i find it weird they just accepted an army based on the guy who was involved in an assassination attempt on a senator by the seperatists. That seems super moronic to me. And the Republic has no force to deal with pirates? At all? I can buy no army. I cant buy no navy...there are too many Hondo Onaka's and Hutts for there not to be a navy. 

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