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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

And he's still not done being wrong even in the OT. Luke shows, through his deeds,  that Yoda's and Obi-Wan's plan for him and how to save the galaxy was ill-conceived. Even during the OT Yoda still has a bit of growing up to do.

A tangent, and delving deeply into personal opinion, but I always took it as Obi-Wan being the one of the two that was gung-ho on Luke ultimately killing Vader, probably due to lingering regret and sense of failure on Ben's part for not preventing Anakin's fall and subsequent rampage in the first place; in some ways he was the washed-out athlete dad living vicariously through his son's sports career (minus the living part naturally).

Yoda on the other hand had perhaps gained enough perspective during his own exile to be aware that while the most likely outcome of a Luke vs. Vader confrontation that would benefit the galaxy was Luke killing Vader, I don't feel that he was completely set on that being the only way, and that he needed to place his trust in the Force to achieve that one scenario where the Sith are toppled and the galaxy freed from their evil, with the fight ultimately being Luke's to decide.  Yoda knew the confrontation had to happen, but he never said that Luke had to kill his father, only that he needed to confront Vader, especially now that Luke had the full knowledge of the identify of the man behind the mask.  Granted, I also believe that his line to Luke being the last of the Jedi and that there were no others was a motivational lie; there may well have been other Jedi (or at least people trained in the Jedi ways), but Luke was the only one that would have stood a chance in confronting Vader and subsequently the Emperor; still would have been nice of Yoda to a least mention the whole "dude shoots electricity from his fingertips" bit to Luke, but that's more an issue with the prequels filling in blank spots since at the time of ESB and RotJ's release, there was nothing to suggest that Yoda and the Emperor had tussled in the past.

It's entirely possible that had Luke stuck around to complete his training, and thus become ready for the burden that fate/destiny had placed on his shoulders, that Luke's initial confrontation with Vader might have gone quite differently.  Of course, that also depends on how long one thinks Luke was hanging around on Dagobah in the first place, a time frame which I think even Pablo Hidalgo of the story group has cited to be a complete pain to nail down.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

A tangent, and delving deeply into personal opinion, but I always took it as Obi-Wan being the one of the two that was gung-ho on Luke ultimately killing Vader, probably due to lingering regret and sense of failure on Ben's part for not preventing Anakin's fall and subsequent rampage in the first place; in some ways he was the washed-out athlete dad living vicariously through his son's sports career (minus the living part naturally).

Yoda on the other hand had perhaps gained enough perspective during his own exile to be aware that while the most likely outcome of a Luke vs. Vader confrontation that would benefit the galaxy was Luke killing Vader, I don't feel that he was completely set on that being the only way, and that he needed to place his trust in the Force to achieve that one scenario where the Sith are toppled and the galaxy freed from their evil, with the fight ultimately being Luke's to decide.  Yoda knew the confrontation had to happen, but he never said that Luke had to kill his father, only that he needed to confront Vader, especially now that Luke had the full knowledge of the identify of the man behind the mask.  Granted, I also believe that his line to Luke being the last of the Jedi and that there were no others was a motivational lie; there may well have been other Jedi (or at least people trained in the Jedi ways), but Luke was the only one that would have stood a chance in confronting Vader and subsequently the Emperor; still would have been nice of Yoda to a least mention the whole "dude shoots electricity from his fingertips" bit to Luke, but that's more an issue with the prequels filling in blank spots since at the time of ESB and RotJ's release, there was nothing to suggest that Yoda and the Emperor had tussled in the past.

It's entirely possible that had Luke stuck around to complete his training, and thus become ready for the burden that fate/destiny had placed on his shoulders, that Luke's initial confrontation with Vader might have gone quite differently.  Of course, that also depends on how long one thinks Luke was hanging around on Dagobah in the first place, a time frame which I think even Pablo Hidalgo of the story group has cited to be a complete pain to nail down.

It's almost as if it's a very messy, muddled, complicated issue, with conflicting emotions and ramifications based on the different outcomes, for all involved.  Instead of some binary, clearly defined, sanitized choice by a piece on a board.  Something I think most fans of this franchise forget.   

Yoda and Ben could only do their best, based on the circumstances.  The previous events had lead the galactic society into the tyrannical grasp of a power mad despot, and his blood thirsty right hand man, who was once a person they called friend.  The likelihood of a non-Force user, being able to stand up to those 2 was slim to none, and removing them (however that is accomplished) seemed like the best way to try and actually free the galaxy from the clutches of a literal cackling madman.   And given how hard/rare it is to in that day (after the purging of force-sensitives), to find anyone with a scrap of Force power, Luke seemed like their last hail mary chance.  And they were probably skeptical of the likelihood of him turning Vader back to the good side.  Because they saw first hand, what he had done.  Just how much innocent blood was dripping from his hands.  They likely thought it next to impossible for anyone to bring him back from the Dark.   And trying to do that, to redeem Luke, while eventually successful, was incredibly risky, as we see quite clearly in the climax of Return of the Jedi.  Luke keeps stopping his fight to try and redeem Vader.  And this provides more opportunities for Palps and Vader to continue to try and twist him to the Dark.  And we SEE THIS, each new battle, Luke withdraws, and makes a plea for redemption, and they turn it on him, and his emotions begin to get the better of him.  As more time passes, more of his friends (and sister) are at risk of dying.  He needs to end this NOW!  He SHOULD end this NOW!  But....he's my FATHER!  The conflict, the uncertainty, that is what they played off to try and turn him.  And all of those opportunities to turn him, were because he kept stopping to try and redeem Vader.  So, from the position of Yoda and Ben, they likely felt that this route, was too risk (and it was, very risky) to gamble on.  If they convince Luke to just go in and kill Vader/Palps, he would be less likely to have an emotional reaction, almost get driven to the edge, and turn.   So, the safer bet, was to just kill Vader.   It makes sense from a logical perspective, if you are looking at Luke as their last, best chance to stop the Dark Side taking over the galaxy.   

Now I'm not saying Luke was wrong to do what he did, I fully agree with his attempt to, and ultimately succeed at redeeming Vader, but as far as motivation for Yoda/Ben, training him to kill him is the choice with the least chances for failure.  And it's not like they can easily read the future "Always in motion" is the future.   And given most stories with future-seeing in them, convey things in likely probabilities, it's reasonable to assume that the redemption route, if seen at all, was probably like 0.000001% Chance of Success, and so they were like "yeah no, not that one then."   But Farsight is incredibly fuzzy, Luke simply asks Yoda to see if his friends will die in Empire, a far more immediate result, with less complications, and he says "difficult to see, ask again later".   So it's hardly a good system for seeing the best course.

 

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

It's almost as if it's a very messy, muddled, complicated issue, with conflicting emotions and ramifications based on the different outcomes, for all involved.  Instead of some binary, clearly defined, sanitized choice by a piece on a board.  Something I think most fans of this franchise forget.   

Yoda and Ben could only do their best, based on the circumstances.  The previous events had lead the galactic society into the tyrannical grasp of a power mad despot, and his blood thirsty right hand man, who was once a person they called friend.  The likelihood of a non-Force user, being able to stand up to those 2 was slim to none, and removing them (however that is accomplished) seemed like the best way to try and actually free the galaxy from the clutches of a literal cackling madman.   And given how hard/rare it is to in that day (after the purging of force-sensitives), to find anyone with a scrap of Force power, Luke seemed like their last hail mary chance.  And they were probably skeptical of the likelihood of him turning Vader back to the good side.  Because they saw first hand, what he had done.  Just how much innocent blood was dripping from his hands.  They likely thought it next to impossible for anyone to bring him back from the Dark.   And trying to do that, to redeem Luke, while eventually successful, was incredibly risky, as we see quite clearly in the climax of Return of the Jedi.  Luke keeps stopping his fight to try and redeem Vader.  And this provides more opportunities for Palps and Vader to continue to try and twist him to the Dark.  And we SEE THIS, each new battle, Luke withdraws, and makes a plea for redemption, and they turn it on him, and his emotions begin to get the better of him.  As more time passes, more of his friends (and sister) are at risk of dying.  He needs to end this NOW!  He SHOULD end this NOW!  But....he's my FATHER!  The conflict, the uncertainty, that is what they played off to try and turn him.  And all of those opportunities to turn him, were because he kept stopping to try and redeem Vader.  So, from the position of Yoda and Ben, they likely felt that this route, was too risk (and it was, very risky) to gamble on.  If they convince Luke to just go in and kill Vader/Palps, he would be less likely to have an emotional reaction, almost get driven to the edge, and turn.   So, the safer bet, was to just kill Vader.   It makes sense from a logical perspective, if you are looking at Luke as their last, best chance to stop the Dark Side taking over the galaxy.   

Now I'm not saying Luke was wrong to do what he did, I fully agree with his attempt to, and ultimately succeed at redeeming Vader, but as far as motivation for Yoda/Ben, training him to kill him is the choice with the least chances for failure.  And it's not like they can easily read the future "Always in motion" is the future.   And given most stories with future-seeing in them, convey things in likely probabilities, it's reasonable to assume that the redemption route, if seen at all, was probably like 0.000001% Chance of Success, and so they were like "yeah no, not that one then."   But Farsight is incredibly fuzzy, Luke simply asks Yoda to see if his friends will die in Empire, a far more immediate result, with less complications, and he says "difficult to see, ask again later".   So it's hardly a good system for seeing the best course.

 


The Force is also not like the Time stone where you can look at the 4 million options and choose the successful option. It gives you incomplete info. glimpses. hints tips. but not answers. And what hints and tips they got probably did not show the best option. More like the results that they had to guess which choice would give them the best results. I suspect Palps might have gotten slightly better info but I also suspect he played up his successes and downplayed his failures. Like he couldnt find the Rebels for years. Everything is proceeding according to my vision my ***. :P

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20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I suspect Palps played up his successes and downplayed his failures. Like he couldnt find the Rebels for years. Everything is proceeding according to my vision my ***. :P

He pretty much did exactly that, and it's what cost him in Rotj.  Note that in the prequels, he adapts his schemes as necessary to account for new developments, such as Maul getting chopped in half on Naboo, forcing him to take Dooku as a place-holder apprentice, or the Queen managing to escape the blockade, which most likely caused him to push up his timetable for getting Valorum booted and himself installed as Supreme Chancellor, to say nothing of her being able to break the Trade Federation's grip on Naboo with what amounts to her personal retinue of bodyguards and a couple of Jedi (who really didn't do much other than run interference on Maul).

By the time of RotJ, he'd been winning for so long that the notion of defeat or even just of things not ultimately going his way was a foreign concept; near-constant success at the global level had made him extremely complacent.  It's similar to tales of champion-level boxers resting on their laurels after a string of relatively easy wins just to get a very rude awakening when stepping into the ring with a talented up-and-comer who's still hungry; classic cinema example is the first bout between Balboa (the reigning champ) and Clubber Lang (the new contender) in Rocky III.

Over in Legends, there was a cadre of dark side adepts called the Prophets of the Dark Side, the leader of whom advised Palpatine that there was a very good chance that Vader would betray him at Endor and slay the Emperor... with Palps response being to laugh it off and deride the prophets' visions as false.

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TL DR:

Every time this notion comes up I remember the quote from the movie One Crazy Summer (80's John Cusack vehicle for those of you unfamiliar with he work),

Quote

With no plan there's no attack. 

With no attack there's no victory! 

Airborne!  Death from above!

 

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It's been a while, but did Yoda or Ben actually tell Luke that he had to kill Vader?  I remember them saying that he had to confront him and defeat him, but not that he actually had to kill him.

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8 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

It's been a while, but did Yoda or Ben actually tell Luke that he had to kill Vader?  I remember them saying that he had to confront him and defeat him, but not that he actually had to kill him.

We can parse their words for every possible meaning, but how is a confrontation (and subsequent defeat) of the evil overlord's murder-happy enforcer supposed to go other than lethally? Even after Luke threw away his sword, the situation still resulted in the deaths of 66% of the involved parties.

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16 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

It's been a while, but did Yoda or Ben actually tell Luke that he had to kill Vader?  I remember them saying that he had to confront him and defeat him, but not that he actually had to kill him.

Also just to make sure that Luke wasn't just misunderstanding.... Luke did say "I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" and Obi-wan's response is literally throwing up his hands a little and saying "then the emperor has already won". No room for confusion or misunderstanding what so ever. Obi-wan and Yoda both intend Luke to kill vader.

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5 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Also just to make sure that Luke wasn't just misunderstanding.... Luke did say "I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" and Obi-wan's response is literally throwing up his hands a little and saying "then the emperor has already won". No room for confusion or misunderstanding what so ever. Obi-wan and Yoda both intend Luke to kill vader.

Or that he needs to be ready to do that. Because that might be required. A good defensive shooting instructor will tell you you need to be ready to kill your attacker. they also will tell you to shoot to stop. So he needed to accept that he may need to kill Vader. not quite the same thin as saying you must kill him. He needed to confront Vader and be willing to kill him if necessary.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Or that he needs to be ready to do that. Because that might be required. A good defensive shooting instructor will tell you you need to be ready to kill your attacker. they also will tell you to shoot to stop. So he needed to accept that he may need to kill Vader. not quite the same thin as saying you must kill him. He needed to confront Vader and be willing to kill him if necessary.

I feel like that is stretching. You have to remember who the writers of these characters are. They aren't martial artist or shooting instructors they are movie makers making it for general audiences. Given that it is still pretty obvious that Yoda and Obi intended Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, heck from obi-wan's perspective Anakin was already dead and Vader was "more machine than man" so from Obi's perspective Vader wasn't even a person.

Edited by tunewalker

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2 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I feel like that is stretching. You have to remember who the writers of these characters are. They aren't martial artist or shooting instructors they are movie makers making it for general audiences. Given that it is still pretty obvious that Yoda and Obi intended Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, heck from obi-wan's perspective Anakin was already dead and Vader was "more machine than man" so from Obi's perspective Vader wasn't even a person.

No it is not. It is obvious they intended for him to confront Vader. The outcome of that confrontation may involve Vader's death. One needs to accept that possibility. But they never said he had to kill him. Likely because that outcome if in Vader's hands not Luke's. If Vader turned from the Dark. no need to kill him. It think it is unfair to put words into Yoda and Obi Wan's mouths that they didn't say.  They said you need to confront him. You can't take killing him off the table as you might need to and confronting him with out accepting that will ensure you lose.

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8 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's also important to note that the legality of an action has little bearing on its morality. All kinds of individual and state-wide atrocities were perfectly legal throughout history - and many still are. And on the flip-side, whether someone breaks the law tells you very little about the morality of their actions.

Do we even have a reliable source in the movies that Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé were acting illegally by going to Geonosis?

Never mind the double-think necessary to condemn them for supposedly acting illegally here while calling them hypocrites over allowing themselves to be welded to a lawful framework by becoming subservient to the Senate and following the Chancellor's orders to become generals.

 

Hard to say, I'd have to watch those films again, and I don't really want to.  But given the political state at the time, it's entirely possible they were empowered with figuring out what was going on.  I know that Yoda/Mace told Ben to continue to follow up on the leads he found at Kamino, which is why he headed to Geonosis.   And I seem to recall at some point previously, that Palpatine order/authorized the Jedi to investigate the activities of the Separatists and to try and stop them, "to save the Republic".     I can't recall a specific scene, but if I did a "all palpatine scenes from the prequels" supercut on youtube, I could probably find the clip I'm thinking of.  But as I recall, most of the scenes where the Jedi spoke to Palpatine, the general theme of the scene, and what it was doing to try and move the plot forward, boiled down to  :

Jedi:  Things be crazy out there yo.

Palps: Word, go scope it out so we can stop these fools from stomping their muddy boots on our couch (Republic)

Jedi:  Word, so you cool with us going Medieval on a mofo?

Palps:  Word, get it done.

Jedi: Word.

Which would generally imply they were authorized to take actions to protect the safety of the Republic people.  And acting on evidence that someone might be building an army, that is being lead by a known hostile entity to the Republic, that's pretty reasonable cause to investigate further, and engage in spying/espionage.  

Again, I'd have to watch Palpatine's scenes in those films, but most of his scenes ended with him telling the Jedi to go accomplish things out there to try and stop the Separatists, and the Senate pretty much always backed his call at that point, so it's safe to assume it was an order, and the authority to do so.

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2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Hard to say, I'd have to watch those films again, and I don't really want to.  But given the political state at the time, it's entirely possible they were empowered with figuring out what was going on.  I know that Yoda/Mace told Ben to continue to follow up on the leads he found at Kamino, which is why he headed to Geonosis.   And I seem to recall at some point previously, that Palpatine order/authorized the Jedi to investigate the activities of the Separatists and to try and stop them, "to save the Republic".     I can't recall a specific scene, but if I did a "all palpatine scenes from the prequels" supercut on youtube, I could probably find the clip I'm thinking of.  But as I recall, most of the scenes where the Jedi spoke to Palpatine, the general theme of the scene, and what it was doing to try and move the plot forward, boiled down to  :

Jedi:  Things be crazy out there yo.

Palps: Word, go scope it out so we can stop these fools from stomping their muddy boots on our couch (Republic)

Jedi:  Word, so you cool with us going Medieval on a mofo?

Palps:  Word, get it done.

Jedi: Word.

Which would generally imply they were authorized to take actions to protect the safety of the Republic people.  And acting on evidence that someone might be building an army, that is being lead by a known hostile entity to the Republic, that's pretty reasonable cause to investigate further, and engage in spying/espionage.  

Again, I'd have to watch Palpatine's scenes in those films, but most of his scenes ended with him telling the Jedi to go accomplish things out there to try and stop the Separatists, and the Senate pretty much always backed his call at that point, so it's safe to assume it was an order, and the authority to do so.

What I do find weird is
Obi Wan: Yo someone is building an Army based on the assassin who tried to kill Queen Admidala. The Cloner's Claim it was us that ordered it....
Jedi Council: Go to Geonosis and find out more.
Obi Wan via Anakin: The Seperatists are working with the assassin and have a droid army...oh crap I am captured.
Jedi Council Show up with the Army they have no idea what the providence of it was...But we are gonna run with using it because we are dumb yo. this could never backfire on us yo.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it is not. It is obvious they intended for him to confront Vader. The outcome of that confrontation may involve Vader's death. One needs to accept that possibility. But they never said he had to kill him. Likely because that outcome if in Vader's hands not Luke's. If Vader turned from the Dark. no need to kill him. It think it is unfair to put words into Yoda and Obi Wan's mouths that they didn't say.  They said you need to confront him. You can't take killing him off the table as you might need to and confronting him with out accepting that will ensure you lose.

Ya it is, Yoda had no intention of telling Luke that Vader was his father. "unexpected this is, and unfortunate". He intended Luke to face Vader believing vader killed his father and his mentor. Obi-wan and Luke's conversation is straight "You cannot escape your destiny you must face darth vader again" Luke:" I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" Ben: "then the emperor has already one" which CLARIFIES for the audience that when they say "confront" they mean kill. If he wasn't meaning kill from the start he could have just told Luke "turn him back if you can, but you can't take killing off the list of solutions, if you do you will surely die" but he doesnt say that. Obi says confront, Luke says I can't kill and Obi goes well then I guess we are screwed. Neither him or Yoda intended to tell Luke the truth which means they never even had the thought to give the possibility of redemption of Vader to Luke. If they had intended the possibility of redeeming Vader they would not have purposefully kept Vader's true identity from Luke. They would have given some form of hope of redemption and they wouldnt have actively created a conflict between Luke and Vader by telling him Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. The entire time before the quote I have above is Obi-wan justifying why Vader is not Anakin, and how Anakin is already dead and Vader is not even a man worth considering "He is more machine now than man, TWISTED and EVIL.".


"your father was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin skywalker and became darth vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, From a certain point of view." Then Ben goes into talking about how good Anakin used to be to which Luke responds " There IS still good in him I felt it" to which Obi-wan responds with the quote about him being twisted and evil again arguing against Luke that there is any possibility at redemption. First he says the good man was DESTROYED and then when Luke argues that the good man is still in their somewhere Obi insists that he is more machine and twisted and evil not believing Luke's assessment of the situation. To which Luke argues "I cant do it ben" and then the quote I gave earlier plays out exactly as it states showing that Luke's FIRST "I cant do it" was talking about killing his father, and again clarifying for all of us what is going on. Obi-wan believes Luke's father is already been destroyed and that a twisted and evil man is all that remains, Luke is arguing that a good man still remains in him and Obi-wan insists that is not the case, Luke then stops arguing the point and simply says he cant kill his dad and Obi-wan basically says "well then we are screwed".

Edited by tunewalker

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13 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Ya it is, Yoda had no intention of telling Luke that Vader was his father. "unexpected this is, and unfortunate". He intended Luke to face Vader believing vader killed his father and his mentor. Obi-wan and Luke's conversation is straight "You cannot escape your destiny you must face darth vader again" Luke:" I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" Ben: "then the emperor has already one" which CLARIFIES for the audience that when they say "confront" they mean kill. If he wasn't meaning kill from the start he could have just told Luke "turn him back if you can, but you can't take killing off the list of solutions, if you do you will surely die" but he doesnt say that. Obi says confront, Luke says I can't kill and Obi goes well then I guess we are screwed. Neither him or Yoda intended to tell Luke the truth which means they never even had the thought to give the possibility of redemption of Vader to Luke. If they had intended the possibility of redeeming Vader they would not have purposefully kept Vader's true identity from Luke. They would have given some form of hope of redemption and they wouldnt have actively created a conflict between Luke and Vader by telling him Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. The entire time before the quote I have above is Obi-wan justifying why Vader is not Anakin, and how Anakin is already dead and Vader is not even a man worth considering "He is more machine now than man, TWISTED and EVIL.".


"your father was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin skywalker and became darth vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, From a certain point of view." Then Ben goes into talking about how good Anakin used to be to which Luke responds " There IS still good in him I felt it" to which Obi-wan responds with the quote about him being twisted and evil again arguing against Luke that there is any possibility at redemption. First he says the good man was DESTROYED and then when Luke argues that the good man is still in their somewhere Obi insists that he is more machine and twisted and evil not believing Luke's assessment of the situation. To which Luke argues "I cant do it ben" and then the quote I gave earlier plays out exactly as it states showing that Luke's FIRST "I cant do it" was talking about killing his father, and again clarifying for all of us what is going on. Obi-wan believes Luke's father is already been destroyed and that a twisted and evil man is all that remains, Luke is arguing that a good man still remains in him and Obi-wan insists that is not the case, Luke then stops arguing the point and simply says he cant kill his dad and Obi-wan basically says "well then we are screwed".

It clarified to you. I don't take it that way. Because I take the more nuanced reading. as opposed to your black an white view that they must have meant wht you have decided they meant. even though they did not say what you claim they said.

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Also remember that Ben said that Vader killed his father "from a certain point of view".  So, even if we wanted to infer and interpret that they wanted Luke to kill Vader, that still leaves the door wide open to turning him back because then Luke would have "killed" Vader and Anakin would be reborn.

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1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

Also remember that Ben said that Vader killed his father "from a certain point of view".  So, even if we wanted to infer and interpret that they wanted Luke to kill Vader, that still leaves the door wide open to turning him back because then Luke would have "killed" Vader and Anakin would be reborn.

@Stan Fresh like this for example.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

It clarified to you. I don't take it that way. Because I take the more nuanced reading. as opposed to your black an white view that they must have meant wht you have decided they meant. even though they did not say what you claim they said.

"But Tony never used the word murder, so we can't know that he actually meant for his underlings in the mob to kill people."

 

Edited by Stan Fresh

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1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

"But Tony never used the word murder, so we can't know that he actually meant for his underlings in the mob to kill people."

 

and yet from a certain point of view Obi Wan said Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin. Soooo murdering includes killing vader and redeeming Anakin. From a certain point of view.

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Posted (edited)

Jedi truths are like horoscopes, so vague and inclusive that they are always truthful from a certain point of view. Yoda is literally a martial arts master from one of those bizarre mortal arts movies who spouts cool catchphrases and life lessons. I personally believed that they totally intended for Luke to kill Vader and they were right; Luke did kill Vader and the emperor, just perhaps in a way no one imagined. It's the same place where you can ask why Leia thought it was fine to get hot and lusty after her own brother, when she apparently revealed she knew who he was the entire time. Because you know, just couldn't have the woman make her own mind up to be with the smuggler like she decided earlier (thought it was rubbish then, I still think it is now).  Star Wars is no deep, cinamatic masterpiece with endless meanings to discern, they were literally writing up the finer details. It is intentionally a triller by nature that really surprised audiences in a time were linked movies weren't really a thing.

 

so yeah, the answer is yes. Especially if it wasn't intended.

Edited by LordBritish

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On 6/21/2019 at 12:26 PM, Daeglan said:


The Force is also not like the Time stone where you can look at the 4 million options and choose the successful option. It gives you incomplete info. glimpses. hints tips. but not answers. And what hints and tips they got probably did not show the best option. More like the results that they had to guess which choice would give them the best results. I suspect Palps might have gotten slightly better info but I also suspect he played up his successes and downplayed his failures. Like he couldnt find the Rebels for years. Everything is proceeding according to my vision my ***. :P

"Always in motion, is the future. And may possible futures, there are."

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On 6/20/2019 at 6:46 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Yes, ridiculously, pedantically, nitpicky.   You people are being silly with your "if it's an offensive action, it's an attack, and thus if he uses the Force in any way whatsoever, he's being EBIL and it's Dark Side and the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER are hypocrites" hyperbole.    Seriously people, stop being so literal with what is said, it's a thing called nuance, and actual human usage of language.  

They use the Force for knowledge and defense, but that's also defense of others, not just themselves.  And if you think a geriatric frog is going to be able to defend the two unconscious people next to the Sith Lord, without using the Force to put them on even footing, well....I just don't know what to say to that.  

Whoa there. No need to fall apart over a post that clearly (or not so, it seems) takes the "devil's advocate" stance just to show me agreeing with you. Have you read one of my first posts in this thread?

On 6/16/2019 at 2:34 PM, Xcapobl said:

Yoda says, not to use the Force for attack...

And then uses the Force to go all ape-excrements on Dooku, tossing, twirling, jumping, bouncing.

A couple of games say, not to use the Force for attack...

And then tyhey provide Force powers that enhance Lightsaber hits, and one for lightsaber damage.

 

My interpretation has always been to use this more as "Don't use the Force in anger". Approach your fight (which you didn't start yourself, of course) with a clear head. Some form of berzerk offense, and then enhancing that with the Force, can only lead to the Dark Side.

That last part is a direct referral to the movie as well. You don't need to tell me Yoda tumbles and tosses himself around to stay out of harm's way, and he stand upright in the rare instances you mught interpret his lightsaber swing as an attack, if it's not a forcefull (note the non-capitalization here) parry. Yoda seems to be in there with a clear head.

 

Of course, I now do think my devil's advocate post triggered the wrong people.

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On 6/21/2019 at 6:12 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Hard to say, I'd have to watch those films again, and I don't really want to.  But given the political state at the time, it's entirely possible they were empowered with figuring out what was going on.  I know that Yoda/Mace told Ben to continue to follow up on the leads he found at Kamino, which is why he headed to Geonosis.   And I seem to recall at some point previously, that Palpatine order/authorized the Jedi to investigate the activities of the Separatists and to try and stop them, "to save the Republic".     I can't recall a specific scene, but if I did a "all palpatine scenes from the prequels" supercut on youtube, I could probably find the clip I'm thinking of.  But as I recall, most of the scenes where the Jedi spoke to Palpatine, the general theme of the scene, and what it was doing to try and move the plot forward, boiled down to  :

Jedi:  Things be crazy out there yo.

Palps: Word, go scope it out so we can stop these fools from stomping their muddy boots on our couch (Republic)

Jedi:  Word, so you cool with us going Medieval on a mofo?

Palps:  Word, get it done.

Jedi: Word.

Which would generally imply they were authorized to take actions to protect the safety of the Republic people.  And acting on evidence that someone might be building an army, that is being lead by a known hostile entity to the Republic, that's pretty reasonable cause to investigate further, and engage in spying/espionage.  

Again, I'd have to watch Palpatine's scenes in those films, but most of his scenes ended with him telling the Jedi to go accomplish things out there to try and stop the Separatists, and the Senate pretty much always backed his call at that point, so it's safe to assume it was an order, and the authority to do so.

You're spot on, but lets use real life to run an example.

The US is really positioning itself for a war with Iran right now.  We almost made a an attack against them.  This would certainly make them curious of what the US intentions are.

If someone from Iran flew a plane into the US and landed in some field somewhere, you can bet the US government would detain them.  If they rightly determined he was a spy, and if Iran then had 2 more agents infiltrate the country, break into military compounds, damage equipment at a military manufacturing company, spy on high ranking government officials, and attempt to rescue the first spy, but fail and get captured.  If all that occurred, and then the US had a trial, determined them guilty, and sentanced them to death (which the US has done), would that give Iran the right to launch a full scale invasion of the US?  Or perhaps pay for someone else (say Russia) to invade the US?

Anakin, Padme, and Obi were landing on sovereign soil without authorization.  They were then infiltrating military facilities, spying on leaders, and sending information back to their faction.  In a time of war with open hostilities.  There are all sorts of pretenses they could have used to land peacefully and hold a conversation with the geonosians...but none of that happened.  They infiltrated a capital world, broke into military facilities, spied on high ranking targets.

Dozens if not hundreds of American spies have been captured and executed.  Not once has the US government launched a full scale war to save one of their lives.  They'd have no ground to as the spying was the first hostile action.  If anything, the Republic should have at least contacted the Seperatists and tried to negotiate for their release through proper channels...but instead they just drop out of hyperspace with an army and launch a full scale war.  It wasn't even a special forces extraction of the prisoners...they landed siege weapons and started a massive conflict.

You don't start a galaxy wide war over 3 people that were doing illegal things in a foreign country.  It doesn't compute.

On 6/21/2019 at 6:20 PM, Daeglan said:

What I do find weird is
Obi Wan: Yo someone is building an Army based on the assassin who tried to kill Queen Admidala. The Cloner's Claim it was us that ordered it....
Jedi Council: Go to Geonosis and find out more.
Obi Wan via Anakin: The Seperatists are working with the assassin and have a droid army...oh crap I am captured.
Jedi Council Show up with the Army they have no idea what the providence of it was...But we are gonna run with using it because we are dumb yo. this could never backfire on us yo.

This is one of many problems with the prequels.  It makes no sense to go to war with an army you know nothing about.  It makes even less sense to go to war with an shady, questionable force that was based on someone that is clearly working with the enemy.

The discovery of this army should have started intensive investigations as to the validity of any of it.  Who really ordered it, when, how did they pay for it, is there some ulterior motive to it?  Just the fact that this army conveniently materializes out of thin air at the very moment when you could use an army to invade a planet is sketchy.  Yet the master detective Jedi don't even seem to question this.  They don't notice the greatest force of evil in the galaxy sitting right in front of them.

 

The best, and really only way you can explain any of it is to just blame it all on Palpatine being a master manipulator which is clearly what Lucas wanted.  Don't think to hard, just accept the bad guy is all powerful and all knowing.

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