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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You are forgetting something. Obi Wan was attacked when he approached the landing pad and again when he caught up in the geonosis system. And again when he landed.

History won't care how they got there, or even that they were held hostage. History will only remember that the Jedi Order invaded genonosis and started the clone wars, the ordinary person won't care if it's a rescue mission, just who started the war. A bunch of Jedi leading the republic to war against an ex-Jedi.

 

Many of the wars today for example are born from the misdeeds of yeasterday, the cause of such wars are largely irrelevant to common perceptions, all we ever want is something to pin blame onto.

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1 minute ago, LordBritish said:

History won't care how they got there, or even that they were held hostage. History will only remember that the Jedi Order invaded genonosis and started the clone wars, the ordinary person won't care if it's a rescue mission, just who started the war. A bunch of Jedi leading the republic to war against an ex-Jedi.

 

Many of the wars today for example are born from the misdeeds of yeasterday, the cause of such wars are largely irrelevant to common perceptions, all we ever want is something to pin blame onto.

Probably not. Keep in mind it is in Palps interest to have the Seperatists look bad. Especially as how many of the rebels came right out of the Separatists.  So I dont know that history will look anything like what either side that was there actually did.  Probably make the Jedi as collaborators with the Seperatists to incite a war that the Senate bungled into or some such.  You know basically pin what Palps did on the Jedi and Palps heroically Triumphing in the end for the people.

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7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Especially as how many of the rebels came right out of the Separatists.

Unless the new canon has been changed again (in that way, it is much like a stinking diaper), Mothma forbid former Separatists from joining her Alliance.

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42 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Unless the new canon has been changed again (in that way, it is much like a stinking diaper), Mothma forbid former Separatists from joining her Alliance.

Just because she forbid them from the alliance does not mean they arent rebels. Just they arent a part of the alliance and dont alliance resources. For example Saw was clearly a tebel and clearly not a part of the alliance.

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Just because she forbid them from the alliance does not mean they arent rebels. Just they arent a part of the alliance and dont alliance resources. For example Saw was clearly a tebel and clearly not a part of the alliance.

OK, sure. Now we have to make sure to differentiate Rebels from rebels.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

OK, sure. Now we have to make sure to differentiate Rebels from rebels.

Im not the one who made this a thing. But it is a thing. Saw Gererra is not a part of the Alliance in Rogue one so it is a thing.

Edited by Daeglan

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10 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

OK, sure. Now we have to make sure to differentiate Rebels from rebels.

Well yeah, if you think only the Captial R  Rebels had a problem with the Empire, well, that's just silly.  It's a big galaxy, and not everyone agrees on everything in times of war.    Plenty of small, insurgent cells who didn't care about the big organization, and only worried about their small neck of the woods, and killing as many Imps as possible?   I think that was pretty much exactly the story for Hera's dad, if I recall correctly.  He was too extreme for the larger faction, but he was most definitely a rebel against the current established government, ie the Empire.

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13 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Just because she forbid them from the alliance does not mean they arent rebels. Just they arent a part of the alliance and dont alliance resources. For example Saw was clearly a tebel and clearly not a part of the alliance.

Looking at just Rogue One, it's pretty clear that while Mon Mothma can be as high-minded as she likes, there's parts of the Rebel Alliance that aren't, as shown with Cassian's superior giving him the orders to assassinate Galen Erso, an order that I'm sure Mon Mothma would have taken major exception to.

So it's very likely there are ex-Separatists who are in the Rebel Alliance.  They probably weren't high-profile members, or at the very least go out of their way to not advertise they were part of the Separatists during the Clone Wars, but there's probably a decent number of mercenaries that the Alliance employs who used to earn their credits from the CIS.

After all, it's pretty naïve of Mothma if she's willing to accept Imperial defectors into her command staff (Crix Madine for instance) but tell anyone that had a history with the Separatists to go walk out an airlock.  Especially since some of the Separatist complaints about the Old Republic turned out to be right once Palpatine showed his true colors.  As long as those ex-Separatists toe the line as set and don't become radical extremists like Saw's group, then I'd be surprised if most of the Rebel brass have any problem with fighting alongside those ex-Seps; it's stated the Alliance is desperately in need of everything from supplies to manpower, and only a complete and utter fool turns away the assistance of battle-seasoned troopers who want to join up simply because they used to be on the other side of a war that turned out to be one great big political power scheme, especially since the same Alliance has little trouble accepting Imperial defectors into their ranks.

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49 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well yeah, if you think only the Captial R  Rebels had a problem with the Empire, well, that's just silly.  It's a big galaxy, and not everyone agrees on everything in times of war.    Plenty of small, insurgent cells who didn't care about the big organization, and only worried about their small neck of the woods, and killing as many Imps as possible?   I think that was pretty much exactly the story for Hera's dad, if I recall correctly.  He was too extreme for the larger faction, but he was most definitely a rebel against the current established government, ie the Empire.

With Hera's father, I thought it was less his extremism and more that his focus was solely upon Ryloth and that the rest of the galaxy didn't matter, in contrast to Hera who did see the larger fight as being more important than just focusing upon one single planet and nothing else.

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2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Looking at just Rogue One, it's pretty clear that while Mon Mothma can be as high-minded as she likes, there's parts of the Rebel Alliance that aren't, as shown with Cassian's superior giving him the orders to assassinate Galen Erso, an order that I'm sure Mon Mothma would have taken major exception to.

So it's very likely there are ex-Separatists who are in the Rebel Alliance.  They probably weren't high-profile members, or at the very least go out of their way to not advertise they were part of the Separatists during the Clone Wars, but there's probably a decent number of mercenaries that the Alliance employs who used to earn their credits from the CIS.

After all, it's pretty naïve of Mothma if she's willing to accept Imperial defectors into her command staff (Crix Madine for instance) but tell anyone that had a history with the Separatists to go walk out an airlock.  Especially since some of the Separatist complaints about the Old Republic turned out to be right once Palpatine showed his true colors.  As long as those ex-Separatists toe the line as set and don't become radical extremists like Saw's group, then I'd be surprised if most of the Rebel brass have any problem with fighting alongside those ex-Seps; it's stated the Alliance is desperately in need of everything from supplies to manpower, and only a complete and utter fool turns away the assistance of battle-seasoned troopers who want to join up simply because they used to be on the other side of a war that turned out to be one great big political power scheme, especially since the same Alliance has little trouble accepting Imperial defectors into their ranks.

Another good point.

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24 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With Hera's father, I thought it was less his extremism and more that his focus was solely upon Ryloth and that the rest of the galaxy didn't matter, in contrast to Hera who did see the larger fight as being more important than just focusing upon one single planet and nothing else.

That's possible, I barely remember the episode.  The main thrust of the narrative that I recall, was that he was just so bloodthirsty, that he wasn't fit for the group

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41 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

That's possible, I barely remember the episode.  The main thrust of the narrative that I recall, was that he was just so bloodthirsty, that he wasn't fit for the group

Same as Saw. Not that rebels werent bloodthirsty. Kassian certainly was willing to do wrong for the Rebels. so it more strikes me as we dont like you.

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

That's possible, I barely remember the episode.  The main thrust of the narrative that I recall, was that he was just so bloodthirsty, that he wasn't fit for the group

There were a couple of episodes with him.  First one (that introduced him to the show) had him decide to blow up the Imperial starfighter carrier that the Ghost crew were looking to swipe for use with Phoenix Squadron, thus being focused on the short term gain (since getting rid of the ship that was floating over Ryloth would help Ryloth) than the long term (the Rebels having the ship would help them strike blows against the Empire in more parts of the galaxy), with him going so far as to hijack the Ghost team's mission.  Second one (which had Thrawn on Ryloth) didn't really show him as 'bloodthirsty' but more desperate given he was going up against Thrawn's tactical acumen and loosing badly.  Then again, Rebels was a TV broadcast network kids' show, and Disney's only going to go so far on that front.

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54 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Same as Saw. Not that rebels werent bloodthirsty. Kassian certainly was willing to do wrong for the Rebels. so it more strikes me as we dont like you.

I think with Saw, it was more that he was very open about his bloodthirstiness and that he simply didn't care about endangering innocent civilians.

Cassian was a bit more pragmatic, only killing the informant when it was clear there was no way the guy was going to escape Imperial capture, and accepting the order to terminate Galen Erso (who doesn't really qualify as "strictly innocent" given what he helped build and develop) to prevent the Empire from further developing weapons of mass destruction.  Though nobody on the Rebels' side at the time knew that Galen's part in the Death Star project was already completed, so it may have been the order was given in the hopes that Galen's death would delay or maybe even derail the project.

I'd be surprised if all throughout the time frame of the original movies there weren't parts of the Rebel Alliance that were willing to get their hands a little dirtier than Mon Mothma would like in order to win the war they were waging, and it may well have been there were various officers like Cassian's superior who were willing to dirty their hands with the unsavory parts of a revolutionary war that Mothma either didn't like or didn't want to consider, thus allowing her to keep her hands relatively clean.

It's very much akin to Garek's line in the Deep Space Nine episode where Sisko pretty much lies, cheats, and murders to drag the Romulans into the Dominion War, that the pride and honor of a single Federation officer is a mere pittance of a price to pay if it means saving the Alpha Quadrant from Dominion control.  Granted, that sort of thinking is exactly what a Force-sensitive person should avoid relying too heavily upon, whether they identify as Jedi or not, lest they fall to the dark side.

And I'd again be very surprised if there weren't high-ranking members of the Jedi Order who were very uncomfortable with the Jedi involvement in the Clone Wars.  In Legends at least, there were number of Jedi who became "conscientious objectors" to the war effort, by which they turned their lightsaber over to the Jedi Order and renounced all ties to the Order (this was introduced in WotC's Living Force campaign so as to allow Jedi PCs to remain in play and not be dragged out of the Cularin system and thus out of play).

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11 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's very much akin to Garek's line in the Deep Space Nine episode where Sisko pretty much lies, cheats, and murders to drag the Romulans into the Dominion War, that the pride and honor of a single Federation officer is a mere pittance of a price to pay if it means saving the Alpha Quadrant from Dominion control.  Granted, that sort of thinking is exactly what a Force-sensitive person should avoid relying too heavily upon, whether they identify as Jedi or not, lest they fall to the dark side.

And I'd again be very surprised if there weren't high-ranking members of the Jedi Order who were very uncomfortable with the Jedi involvement in the Clone Wars.  In Legends at least, there were number of Jedi who became "conscientious objectors" to the war effort, by which they turned their lightsaber over to the Jedi Order and renounced all ties to the Order (this was introduced in WotC's Living Force campaign so as to allow Jedi PCs to remain in play and not be dragged out of the Cularin system and thus out of play).

In fact I think this Line of thinking is exactly Palpatine's plan. Drag the Jedi's already sketchy morality down even further. Push them to do things Jedi should never be involved in. War requires pushing the other side so far they give up and surrender. That generally involves inspiring fear and hopelessness. Things a Jedi should not be inspiring.

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52 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And I'd again be very surprised if there weren't high-ranking members of the Jedi Order who were very uncomfortable with the Jedi involvement in the Clone Wars.  In Legends at least, there were number of Jedi who became "conscientious objectors" to the war effort, by which they turned their lightsaber over to the Jedi Order and renounced all ties to the Order (this was introduced in WotC's Living Force campaign so as to allow Jedi PCs to remain in play and not be dragged out of the Cularin system and thus out of play).

I'd say pretty much all of the Jedi we see on screen are uncomfortable with the turn of events.  The final shot of Attack of the Clones, with Yoda talking to the other Jedi, and he says "Begun...the Clone War has."  was just dripping with reluctance and dread on his part.   I mean none of them were pleased with the turn of events, they just didn't see any better alternative, based on the circumstances.   So I don't think that's a stretch at all, as it was pretty much shown on screen.  

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5 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I'd say pretty much all of the Jedi we see on screen are uncomfortable with the turn of events.  The final shot of Attack of the Clones, with Yoda talking to the other Jedi, and he says "Begun...the Clone War has."  was just dripping with reluctance and dread on his part.   I mean none of them were pleased with the turn of events, they just didn't see any better alternative, based on the circumstances.   So I don't think that's a stretch at all, as it was pretty much shown on screen.  

avoiding this would have required recognizing the problem like 20 years before....and adjusting course to disentangle them selves from the Senate.

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

avoiding this would have required recognizing the problem like 20 years before....and adjusting course to disentangle them selves from the Senate.

Much more than 20 years. The Jedi were agents of (and enforcers for) the Republic for a long time. They didn't abandon the ways of Force for the ways of Republic just in the last 20 years.

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26 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Much more than 20 years. The Jedi were agents of (and enforcers for) the Republic for a long time. They didn't abandon the ways of Force for the ways of Republic just in the last 20 years.

I know. But not recognizing the issue meant not addressing the issue. If they had addressed that early they could have changed course enough i think. Likely not been generals...

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On 6/17/2019 at 4:41 PM, KungFuFerret said:

What you might have missed, and I re-watched that scene to be sure, Yoda always is reactionary with his actions...

 

Yet not at any one time I see him turn into the frail old muppet we all came to love in the middle of the duel, he always seems to have his enhancement 'on'. Including during the attack swings he makes. Only after the duel does he seem to let go of his Force enhancements. Pot-ay-to / pot-ah-to for sure, but there's no deniying he uses the Force to enhance himself, and he attacks while using the Force to enhance himself.

Perhaps nitpicky, but shouldn't Yoda have turned off his Force enhancement each time he attacked then? Something which I would asume to be clearly visible (the difference between a 870 year old and a bouncing ball with a lightsaber extension)?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

Perhaps nitpicky

Yes, ridiculously, pedantically, nitpicky.   You people are being silly with your "if it's an offensive action, it's an attack, and thus if he uses the Force in any way whatsoever, he's being EBIL and it's Dark Side and the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER are hypocrites" hyperbole.    Seriously people, stop being so literal with what is said, it's a thing called nuance, and actual human usage of language.  

 

They use the Force for knowledge and defense, but that's also defense of others, not just themselves.  And if you think a geriatric frog is going to be able to defend the two unconscious people next to the Sith Lord, without using the Force to put them on even footing, well....I just don't know what to say to that.   

 

 

Edited by KungFuFerret

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yes, ridiculously, pedantically, nitpicky.   You people are being silly with your "if it's an offensive action, it's an attack, and thus if he uses the Force in any way whatsoever, he's being EBIL and it's Dark Side and the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER are hypocrites" hyperbole.    Seriously people, stop being so literal with what is said, it's a thing called nuance, and actual human usage of language.  

 

They use the Force for knowledge and defense, but that's also defense of others, not just themselves.  And if you think a geriatric frog is going to be able to defend the two unconscious people next to the Sith Lord, without using the Force to put them on even footing, well....I just don't know what to say to that.   

 

 

Well said.

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It's also important to note that the legality of an action has little bearing on its morality. All kinds of individual and state-wide atrocities were perfectly legal throughout history - and many still are. And on the flip-side, whether someone breaks the law tells you very little about the morality of their actions.

Do we even have a reliable source in the movies that Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé were acting illegally by going to Geonosis?

Never mind the double-think necessary to condemn them for supposedly acting illegally here while calling them hypocrites over allowing themselves to be welded to a lawful framework by becoming subservient to the Senate and following the Chancellor's orders to become generals.

 

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Also, Yoda in AotC is not Yoda in Empire or Jedi. His failures in the prequels change his perspective on things. Yoda talking about using the Force only for defense doesn't contradict his behavior in Revenge so much as acknowledges and comments on it.
He, too, was younger and more rash in the prequels. Living decades in solitude with only his memories of failure as company gives a frog perspective.

And he's still not done being wrong even in the OT. Luke shows, through his deeds,  that Yoda's and Obi-Wan's plan for him and how to save the galaxy was ill-conceived. Even during the OT Yoda still has a bit of growing up to do.

 

 

 

 

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