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“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

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Posted (edited)

The Sith are OK with second-degree murder and/or manslaughter while the contemplative Jedi opt for coldblooded first-degree murder so long as they can rationalize the killing to themselves (i.e., the "he needed killing" defense).

Edited by HappyDaze

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

The Sith are OK with second-degree murder and/or manslaughter while the contemplative Jedi opt for coldblooded first-degree murder so long as they can rationalize the killing to themselves (i.e., the "he needed killing" defense).

I dont know how you get that

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48 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont know how you get that

Jedi seem perfectly fine with assassination and summary executions based upon their own counsel of what is right and wrong (so long as they're not being too emotional). The plan to grow Luke into an assassin and Mace Windu's decision to off the (apparently) defeated Emperor are two examples.

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59 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Jedi seem perfectly fine with assassination and summary executions based upon their own counsel of what is right and wrong (so long as they're not being too emotional). The plan to grow Luke into an assassin and Mace Windu's decision to off the (apparently) defeated Emperor are two examples.

I think you need to watch the Mace Windu scene again. Because Anakin called him on his **** for not following the Jedi way. And the Yoda Bit was after 30 years of murder by Vader. 

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14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I think you need to watch the Mace Windu scene again. Because Anakin called him on his **** for not following the Jedi way. And the Yoda Bit was after 30 years of murder by Vader. 

Anakin's motives re: Palpatine were incredibly conflicted. Did he object for the Jedi code or for his own selfish reasons? 

And as for 30 years? Big deal. It was still premeditated extralegal murder. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Anakin's motives re: Palpatine were incredibly conflicted. Did he object for the Jedi code or for his own selfish reasons? 

And as for 30 years? Big deal. It was still premeditated extralegal murder. 

Yes Anakin was conflicted does not mean he was wrong about the jedi way.  In fact the violation of the Jedi way was what pushed Anakin to the dark side. 

Of a mass murderer sanctioned by the current government. How donyou handle that through legal channels?

Edited by Daeglan

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yes Anakin was conflicted does not mean he was wrong about the jedi way.  In fact the violation of the Jedi way was what pushed Anakin to the dark side. 

Of a mass murderer sanctioned by the current government. How donyou handle that through legal channels?

The guy had just done an unsanctioned murder himself. He wasn't worried about murder because it was wrong. 

Edited by HappyDaze
Autocorrect sucks.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The guy had just done an unsanctioned murder himself. He wasn't worried about murder because it was wrong. 

That does not make unsanctioned murder the Jedi way. In fact Anakin said that murder was wrong as well. And the murder was technically sanctioned by the Chancelor of the Repunlic.

Edited by Daeglan

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On 6/16/2019 at 7:34 AM, Xcapobl said:

Yoda says, not to use the Force for attack...

And then uses the Force to go all ape-excrements on Dooku, tossing, twirling, jumping, bouncing.

What you might have missed, and I re-watched that scene to be sure, Yoda always is reactionary with his actions.  Dooku throws stuff at him, he catches them and tosses them to the side harmlessly.  Dooku shoots lightning at him first, he catches and redirects it at him.  Dooku decides to switch to sabers, draws his first, then Yoda draws his.  Dooku leaps into attack first, Yoda reacts.   That's not "attacking" unless a person is being so ridiculously pedantic about what is common knowledge about the difference in assault and defense.   Every time, Yoda isn't the one to initiate the conflict, he reacts to defend himself from attacks by Dooku.  The Jedi have never claimed to be pacifists, which implies that some level of conflict/violence is expected in their way of life.   It's to remind them that violence is meant to be used as a last resort, when all other non-violent options have been exhausted.  

 

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19 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

What you might have missed, and I re-watched that scene to be sure, Yoda always is reactionary with his actions.  Dooku throws stuff at him, he catches them and tosses them to the side harmlessly.  Dooku shoots lightning at him first, he catches and redirects it at him.  Dooku decides to switch to sabers, draws his first, then Yoda draws his.  Dooku leaps into attack first, Yoda reacts.   That's not "attacking" unless a person is being so ridiculously pedantic about what is common knowledge about the difference in assault and defense.   Every time, Yoda isn't the one to initiate the conflict, he reacts to defend himself from attacks by Dooku.  The Jedi have never claimed to be pacifists, which implies that some level of conflict/violence is expected in their way of life.   It's to remind them that violence is meant to be used as a last resort, when all other non-violent options have been exhausted.  

 

Of course Yoda was leading the invasion of a non-Republic world at the time...

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2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Of course Yoda was leading the invasion of a non-Republic world at the time...

The topic is using the Force for defense/attack.  Prior to that, all Yoda does is just observe and give instructions to the troops.   So your comment isn't actually relevant.  When Yoda is taking direct, personal action, he's reactionary, and disengages the combat once his allies were in danger, to Defend them, instead of Attack Dooku.

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1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

The topic is using the Force for defense/attack.  Prior to that, all Yoda does is just observe and give instructions to the troops.   So your comment isn't actually relevant.  When Yoda is taking direct, personal action, he's reactionary, and disengages the combat once his allies were in danger, to Defend them, instead of Attack Dooku.

If you place yourself into the path of attacks by launching an invasion,  you can't claim that you're acting in defense.

If I pull a home invasion with some of my buddies and "just observe" until the home owner fights back,  I can't claim I was acting defensively when I step in to protect my buddies. 

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11 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If you place yourself into the path of attacks by launching an invasion,  you can't claim that you're acting in defense.

If I pull a home invasion with some of my buddies and "just observe" until the home owner fights back,  I can't claim I was acting defensively when I step in to protect my buddies. 

They didnt choose to need to invade. The Separatists decided to capture 3 people and execute them. They brought the need to invade on themselves. 

Now the fact the Jedi were kind of lackeys of the Senate is an issue. But that is seperate from the invasion due to the attack and attempted execution of a Senator and Jedi. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They didnt choose to need to invade. The Separatists decided to capture 3 people and execute them. They brought the need to invade on themselves. 

Now the fact the Jedi were kind of lackeys of the Senate is an issue. But that is seperate from the invasion due to the attack and attempted execution of a Senator and Jedi. 

Those were all trespassers on Geonosis. They were being executed per local law, likely for espionage. The Republic refused to recognize the sovereignty of Geonosis and started a war over three idiots.

Edited by HappyDaze

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4 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Those were all trespassers on Geonosis. They were being executed per local law, likely for espionage. The Republic refused to recognize the sovereignty of Geonosis and started a war over three idiots.

If you want to be simplistic. sure. It isn't that simple. That does not mean the Senate and the Jedi were with out blame. And no they were largely being executed because Lott Dodd was embarrassed about how the the Trade Federation was nailed for wrong doing in the Phantom Menace. Of course this is all a part of the machinations of Palpatine.

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1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

If you want to be simplistic. sure. It isn't that simple. That does not mean the Senate and the Jedi were with out blame. And no they were largely being executed because Lott Dodd was embarrassed about how the the Trade Federation was nailed for wrong doing in the Phantom Menace. Of course this is all a part of the machinations of Palpatine.

I'm pretty sure the Geonosian Duke was the guy overseeing the execution, but I havn't watched E2 in a long time.

I'm not sure how Palpatine could have "foreseen" that two Jedi and a Senator would take it upon themselves to trespass on a non-Republic planet. Of course, it also makes me wonder how the timing of getting all of Windu's Jedi (and later the clones) there so quickly was supposed to work. Oh yeah, because George is totally craptastic at writing details like timing that "don't matter" for his SW stories (but tend to really matter for SW games).

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I'd interpret it as Kasdan, Kershner, Lucas and Kurtz still figuring out what the mythos meant, and a line in a slow and over-budget production deemed good enough for print.

"Don't use the Force in anger; with power comes responsibility" is the best consensus I see here.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

I'm pretty sure the Geonosian Duke was the guy overseeing the execution, but I havn't watched E2 in a long time.

I'm not sure how Palpatine could have "foreseen" that two Jedi and a Senator would take it upon themselves to trespass on a non-Republic planet. Of course, it also makes me wonder how the timing of getting all of Windu's Jedi (and later the clones) there so quickly was supposed to work. Oh yeah, because George is totally craptastic at writing details like timing that "don't matter" for his SW stories (but tend to really matter for SW games).

watch it again. yes the Duke was overseeing it. Lott Dodd demanded it in order to support the geonosians. And
While Palpatine can't foresee the Jedi Actions. He can however predict likely behavior. And it would not surprise me if he had spies in place to report on actions taken.

Edited by Daeglan

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I aren't gonna address Yoda's statement particularly since most people know what it means but more around the other aspects.

Though it's interesting to note that the Jedi fundamentally failed to do that in the Clone Wars, where it was the Jedi who both intruded and invaded Genosis. not only that but in the many years since Dooku left the Jedi to him being the head of the separatist order, not once did the Jedi attempt actually see another solution to the problem other then just attacking Dooku's cabal, the fact that they allowed one of their own to form a gigantic army in rebellion to the Republic was a fundamental failure on the Jedi to protect their republic by allowing such a threat to grow unhindered. Basically, in allowing the clone wars to happen the Jedi had failed in seeking other opportunities and instead recklessly committed themselves to war, allowing history to colour them as the relentless aggressors. That was according to Sidious's plan as in order for Order 66 to work, no one had to miss the Jedi, and who would miss the largest warmonger's in the galaxy at this point in history? 
 

In regards to the assassination on Palpatine; I think also what you have to remember at that particular moment was Windu's state of mind. He had just witnessed the man butcher three of his other comrades in a matter of seconds and had barely brought the sithlord to heel himself, from his perspective there was no way that they could safely capture this powerful being without endangering the galaxy. Palpatine had to die because he was much too powerful to live and Windu was exhausted having been brought to the threshold of his abilities. His discipline had completely failed him because he had faced an individual that was terrifyingly powerful combined with the weight of the entire war hinging on what he did in that moment. I feel that killing Sidious was the right thing to do (E.g. Fundamentally killing a sith lord is a guilt free sin in my book, even assassination.) if unlawful by republican standards, but likely the stress of following through would've left a dark mark on his soul for some time due to the anger he felt.


Anakin was a great deal worse; his fears that drove him to the dark side was a rash, irrational desire to correct a future he saw in his nightmares. In ultimately serving evil he brought upon that future he had foreseen himself. His selfish desire to save his wife whom he had hidden from the Jedi and ultimately trusting a sith lord to do it, in combination with his lack of faith in the Jedi really cemented his fall. In cutting down Windu out of completely selfish needs he had ultimately put the galaxy toward it's darkest path imaginable. Windu might've been a hard liner who never really trusted Anakin, but he was completely in the right in this scene, even if that made the Jedi order criminals whom had just killed the head of the republic. Mace Windu was in the right, but one thing to understand in war is that even the right path has it's cost; most war campaigns should relentlessly hound the PC with conflict to show that direct conflict really is the worst. Last session the party fired the Galaxy Gun on Jakku to put a gigantic hole in the imperial navy's defences and even though objectively using the Galaxy gun in the battle to cripple a point of the imperial lines was correct; it was still firing a imperial super weapon that was designed to spread mass terror that would kill millions when strictly speaking we didn't have to, we were only tasked with it's destruction that we accomplished by firing it in atmosphere. That being said, just because it left an emotional mark on us doesn't make us evil; just a "oh, ok, I've just killed a million or so people. I'm definitely going to need some kind of rehab after this." or "those people all under my commando all died. It was my duty to lead them; but was it right of me to sacrifice them to achieve the greater good?" It's complex moral choices like that makes being a leader difficult and fun.

 

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1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

I aren't gonna address Yoda's statement particularly since most people know what it means but more around the other aspects.

Though it's interesting to note that the Jedi fundamentally failed to do that in the Clone Wars, where it was the Jedi who both intruded and invaded Genosis. not only that but in the many years since Dooku left the Jedi to him being the head of the separatist order, not once did the Jedi attempt actually see another solution to the problem other then just attacking Dooku's cabal, the fact that they allowed one of their own to form a gigantic army in rebellion to the Republic was a fundamental failure on the Jedi to protect their republic by allowing such a threat to grow unhindered. Basically, in allowing the clone wars to happen the Jedi had failed in seeking other opportunities and instead recklessly committed themselves to war, allowing history to colour them as the relentless aggressors. That was according to Sidious's plan as in order for Order 66 to work, no one had to miss the Jedi, and who would miss the largest warmonger's in the galaxy at this point in history? 
 

In regards to the assassination on Palpatine; I think also what you have to remember at that particular moment was Windu's state of mind. He had just witnessed the man butcher three of his other comrades in a matter of seconds and had barely brought the sithlord to heel himself, from his perspective there was no way that they could safely capture this powerful being without endangering the galaxy. Palpatine had to die because he was much too powerful to live and Windu was exhausted having been brought to the threshold of his abilities. His discipline had completely failed him because he had faced an individual that was terrifyingly powerful combined with the weight of the entire war hinging on what he did in that moment. I feel that killing Sidious was the right thing to do (E.g. Fundamentally killing a sith lord is a guilt free sin in my book, even assassination.) if unlawful by republican standards, but likely the stress of following through would've left a dark mark on his soul for some time due to the anger he felt.


Anakin was a great deal worse; his fears that drove him to the dark side was a rash, irrational desire to correct a future he saw in his nightmares. In ultimately serving evil he brought upon that future he had foreseen himself. His selfish desire to save his wife whom he had hidden from the Jedi and ultimately trusting a sith lord to do it, in combination with his lack of faith in the Jedi really cemented his fall. In cutting down Windu out of completely selfish needs he had ultimately put the galaxy toward it's darkest path imaginable. Windu might've been a hard liner who never really trusted Anakin, but he was completely in the right in this scene, even if that made the Jedi order criminals whom had just killed the head of the republic. Mace Windu was in the right, but one thing to understand in war is that even the right path has it's cost; most war campaigns should relentlessly hound the PC with conflict to show that direct conflict really is the worst. Last session the party fired the Galaxy Gun on Jakku to put a gigantic hole in the imperial navy's defences and even though objectively using the Galaxy gun in the battle to cripple a point of the imperial lines was correct; it was still firing a imperial super weapon that was designed to spread mass terror that would kill millions when strictly speaking we didn't have to, we were only tasked with it's destruction that we accomplished by firing it in atmosphere. That being said, just because it left an emotional mark on us doesn't make us evil; just a "oh, ok, I've just killed a million or so people. I'm definitely going to need some kind of rehab after this." or "those people all under my commando all died. It was my duty to lead them; but was it right of me to sacrifice them to achieve the greater good?" It's complex moral choices like that makes being a leader difficult and fun.

 

You are forgetting something. Obi Wan was attacked when he approached the landing pad and again when he caught up in the geonosis system. And again when he landed.

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20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You are forgetting something. Obi Wan was attacked when he approached the landing pad and again when he caught up in the geonosis system. And again when he landed.

He could claim he was defending himself on Kamino. After that,  he was outside his jurisdiction.  You can't claim defense while invading (and Jango was a guest at Geonosis so under their protection).

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12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

He could claim he was defending himself on Kamino. After that,  he was outside his jurisdiction.  You can't claim defense while invading (and Jango was a guest at Geonosis so under their protection).

How is he outside his jurisdiction? It is pretty clear the senate has republic wide jurisdiction and the jedi have the same. Also you seem to forget he was following an assassin and from what i can tell the Republic did not really recognize the secession formally.

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Just now, Daeglan said:

How is he outside his jurisdiction? It is pretty clear the senate has republic wide jurisdiction and the jedi have the same. Also you seem to forget he was following an assassin and from what i can tell the Republic did not really recognize the secession formally.

The Republic did not control all of the galaxy, and Geonosis was not a Republic world. A Mexican Federali cannot legally pursue a criminal into Texas and a Jedi cannot legally pursue someone outside of the Republic either. 

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18 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The Republic did not control all of the galaxy, and Geonosis was not a Republic world. A Mexican Federali cannot legally pursue a criminal into Texas and a Jedi cannot legally pursue someone outside of the Republic either. 

I dont think it is that simple. From what i can tell the Republic did not recognize the secession. So i dont think the republic saw it that way.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont think it is that simple. From what i can tell the Republic did not recognize the secession. So i dont think the republic saw it that way.

Geonosis did not secede; afaict it was never part of the Republic. 

Edited by HappyDaze
Autocorrect sucks.

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