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Wazat

Advice for countering Rebel Beef?

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2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Alternatively, drop Hate from Kylo to give Tavson biohexacrypt (long range coordinate) and change that starkiller to Thannison. With so many self-stressers within Rebel Beef, Thannison has a field day. Either he scares them and they don't self-stress (and thus nerfing them already) or they forget/YOLO anyway and endure the tractor. That rock that the b-wing failed its roll on? Well now it has 0 agility and is sitting on top of that rock. That arc that the b-wing was going to swing with the coordinated focus/roll? Well now you can boost him to swing him into a different ship/rock. 

Also an incredibly valid meta response.  I faced that list in ATL with a braylen/wedge/cassian/jake setup and I only won because he overcommitted kylo and he got nuked in one round.  But those shuttles (Thannison in particular) were terrifying for that poor b-wing.  It's too slow to get around them and he *really* didn't want to stress and wind up on a rock like you said.  Jake was the MVP since he was mobile enough to get behind the shuttles and bully them.  If I was running the typically beefier variant with 2 bwings I don't win that, even with kylo removed from the equation.

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I was typing a response but the forum ate it.  Funny that it remembers posts from weeks ago that I already posted, but I let it show new responses and suddenly my words never were.  ;)

 

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

I'm hoping the Rebel Bees 'n Wedge list gets nerfed.  It'll already be hurting from a pricier Leia, and a few slight points adjustments would greatly limit its options.  But they're not the only beef list... beef is everywhere and it would take a pretty wide-spanning nerf for it to not be the meta anymore.  All the same, here's hoping!

Unfortunately I need to start designing my casual quirk lists to be anti-beef, so those fights aren't such a drag (I'm more focused on ace hunting, but the aces are shy these days).  Even on casual night I can face a lot of beef, and I need to make sure I can chop it proper.  With a little luck, with the points update some of my favorite jank lists (oh please Wullffwarro War Crimes!, drop a dozen points or so) will become more functional and beef will be in the corner crying and guarding its battered crotch.

Or my lists will get nerfed hard and Beef lists will be stronger than ever.  Cuz, ya know.  :D

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6 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Just watch, they will be 65 when wave 5 drops to spur sales :)

I'm actually afraid b-wings will become cheaper for their hyperspace intro instead of getting nerfed, and we'll have 6 more months of beef winter.

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3 minutes ago, Wazat said:

With a little luck, with the points update some of my favorite jank lists (oh please Wullffwarro War Crimes!, drop a dozen points or so) will become more functional and beef will be in the corner crying and guarding its battered crotch.

My top-performing list right now is a token-stacking, juking Wulf/Saw/Kullbee list. It’s stupid amounts of fun and I call it “Beef Jerky” because they’re juking jerks.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v6!s=200!35:123,,40,54,,140,:;58:123,54,46,164:;12:,123,,5,,142:&sn=Beef Jerky&obs=

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as long as they don't price things into oblivion. unnamed B's are probably fine. Named b's could probably go up 2 and see what happens. RZ2's could probably go up 1-2 and Heroic up 1 and see what happens. But they will go all knee jerk and make Braylen 70 points, Lulo 60, Resistance Rey 40.... /s

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52 minutes ago, viedit said:

Also an incredibly valid meta response.  I faced that list in ATL with a braylen/wedge/cassian/jake setup and I only won because he overcommitted kylo and he got nuked in one round.  But those shuttles (Thannison in particular) were terrifying for that poor b-wing.  It's too slow to get around them and he *really* didn't want to stress and wind up on a rock like you said.  Jake was the MVP since he was mobile enough to get behind the shuttles and bully them.  If I was running the typically beefier variant with 2 bwings I don't win that, even with kylo removed from the equation.

The over-committing of Kylo is really sad, because so long as you understand how an autothruster ace should typically fly, Kylo + 2U is an incredibly easy list to pick up. I'd like to see more of it filling the meta as a natural counter to the beef, but people are still a bit daunted with a heavy investment in the hammer-anvil playstyle.

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Is it wrong that I kind of like the idea of rebel beef being strong? I think it is a valid squad archetype for rebels, just like swarms are for Imperials and CIS. It just seems to fit the personality of the faction. 

That being said...the good princess make an appearance in just about every version of every squad of this type. They may re-adjust her points value again.

I also think that the points need to be adjusted to the point of decision making and sacrifice being incorporated into the list building process. You should have to make real choices in what you bring and what you leave behind. Lots of rebel beef lists just seem to have stuff that fits nice and tidy. 

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12 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

That being said...the good princess make an appearance in just about every version of every squad of this type.

Braylen is very often too, and Wedge. Cassian also to a lesser degree. All 3 need a little upping (maybe 3 points).

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9 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Braylen is very often too, and Wedge. Cassian also to a lesser degree. All 3 need a little upping (maybe 3 points).

I was taken aback by what you said so I just made a squad that had all of those plus Ten Numb and I have 6 points left over...

Kinda gross.

 

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1 hour ago, BDrafty said:

Is it wrong that I kind of like the idea of rebel beef being strong? I think it is a valid squad archetype for rebels, just like swarms are for Imperials and CIS. It just seems to fit the personality of the faction. 

That being said...the good princess make an appearance in just about every version of every squad of this type. They may re-adjust her points value again.

I also think that the points need to be adjusted to the point of decision making and sacrifice being incorporated into the list building process. You should have to make real choices in what you bring and what you leave behind. Lots of rebel beef lists just seem to have stuff that fits nice and tidy. 

Perhaps not wrong.  Conceptually it sounds fine and thematic; 'tis fighting against it in actual practice that sucks.  Beef lists have gotten so, so boring to me because the strategy is "I take forever to kill", with a good helping of "and I'll still be near full strength as you're losing ships".  Beef lists handle bad rounds better than other fleets do, it's very hard to remove any of their ships from the table even with a concerted effort, and I feel there's not as much risk or counter-play as there is for other list archetypes.  If they were a sometimes list with more pronounced weaknesses then I could see it being appropriate, but beef lists are so good against so many types of fleets, I see the beef all the time.  And it really restricts what you can fly, when beef is most of what you'll fight.

And they're boring to fight now.  Whether I win or lose, it can leave me feeling drained.  Contrast with an aces list where every round feels intense but also brimming with potential -- they could brilliantly outmaneuver me and take out a ship, or perhaps my bump gambit will pay off and I'll killbox their top ace.  But a beef list?  You hit them with a full shotgun blast from a perfectly laid killbox trap, and they just groan and keep trudging forward, like zombies with far too much health.  Maybe they'll lose a ship, but they don't care; there's three or four more where that came from, and you'll be lucky to have not lost a valuable ship in return for their junker.  There no payoff for that perfect round against them; you have to just keep hitting for several rounds until something finally dies, then repeat.  Solve this issue and it'll be far less unpleasant fighting them.

 

IMO, BEEF is also not how I imagine Rebels -- to me they're the faction of teamwork, heart, and desperate gambits.  Selfless is ironically a good representation, even though in the context of beef proliferation, it's part of the problem.  Cassian, Leia, Saw -- all fantastic ideas.  But right now all that intrigue is vacuumed up into the faux archetype of rebel beef; "all shall serve the beef and beef is all we shall be".  No they're not, but the way the faction is built and priced, it's hard to not fall into that archetype every time.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, viedit said:

Those s-foils need room to be flappy.  Also, have not lost to beef with it.

 

flappy.thumb.jpg.b3ca2846b8a91655af92832b891fa62c.jpg

THIS^^^

I flew this (Wedge, Braylen,Luke,Jake) at Seattle System Open Hyperspace Qualifier. Faced three rebel beef lists and beat em all. Wasnt easy, but with the right approach it can be done, regardless of your squad. Spread wide like the image above. Approach beef at multiple angles, so they cannot Leia your entire squad. This is basic rebel beef strategy. Dont joust em. Kill Wedge or Cassian first, whoever they serve up. In one match, I killed Wedge in one round. Next round, all my ships attacked Braylen and dropped him to 1 hull. In another match, I dropped the Uwing in two rounds before the opponent could use leia once - Wedge flanked it while opponent went for Braylen.

Edited by wurms

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Posted (edited)

Wedge is to cheap. Braylen is to cheap. Leia is cheap too. Combo of that makes Rebel Beef quite strong. But as has been stated, most players fly them as a block which can be abused.

Edited by Rangor

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On 6/16/2019 at 7:40 AM, Archangelspiv said:

When Boba dominated the meta, his build went up 17 points, there is no way beef is not getting hit with the Mando Hammer too

I hope that's the case for beef.  But for Boba, that was one ship, easy to tackle.  There's a lot of beef out there, and it would have to be an across-the-board nerf.  The B-Wing Bunch ("here's a story / of a sassy U-Wing...") is just one particularly popular example.  I worry FFG will nerf that slightly and call it good, and thus the larger beef-heavy meta will remain untouched.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I hope that's the case for beef.  But for Boba, that was one ship, easy to tackle.  There's a lot of beef out there, and it would have to be an across-the-board nerf.  The B-Wing Bunch ("here's a story / of a sassy U-Wing...") is just one particularly popular example.  I worry FFG will nerf that slightly and call it good, and thus the larger beef-heavy meta will remain untouched.

One day Boba was the guy, next day you couldn't afford his Mando ***. I dont see why it will be different for Beef. If the B Wings go up over 50, Wedge gets a 2 poing hit, Leia goes up to 6-7, Cassian gets a few extra. With Incremental small changes, all of a sudden that build is now 15-20 points up. They wont kill the ships per se, just make it so you cant run them together. Int 1 defenders are 70 points and I will be amazed if they ever go under 67. It's FFG's way of ensuring great ships dont fly together too much. 

Edited by Archangelspiv

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Going by Arc pricing, we're looking at 50 point Braylen/Ten, with a possibility of 52 point Braylen (though I'd leave him at 50 since he needs support to make the most of his ability, unlike Wolfe)

Which is probably fine 

Xwings and Bwings going to arc scaling would help a lot, plus then we're DOUBTLESSLY looking at like a four-six point Leia at least 

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During the Pre-January points update both Braylen and Ten were 50 points apiece. Cassian (47 points) wasn't HS legal at the time and Leia was 8 points. Wedge was 52 points as he probably should remain. The common Rebel Beef list without Leia, in the old points comes to 199.

I flew beef in extended before the Jan. update. and was amazed that the B-wings came down, along with VT Gunner.

When/if the named B's get an increase, I don't feel they'll go past 50 points again. Assuming that 50 point price and a 6 point Leia:

50 points - Ten
50 points - Braylen
52 points -  Wedge
53 points - Cassian(47) + Leia (6)
--------------
205 points total

Cass isn't key, the list just needs a crew carrier. Even a lowly Blue Squadron Scout or Partisan Renegade (either is 43 points) would still "break" this list, coming in at 201 points.

I don't think we'll see this list in Hyperspace until the Ghost/Phantom returns. The Phantom II in my mind is the most likely Leia crew carrier.

 

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