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Wazat

Advice for countering Rebel Beef?

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Posted (edited)

I don't fly lists that are remotely good against rebel beef (filthy casual here, and I like quirky lists), so when someone on my local facebook page asked what beats them, I only had 3 suggestions:

  • More Beef, unfortunately.  It's definitely a problem IMO when a mainstay counter to something is itself.
  • Four Phantoms, which soak and deal damage just as well.  But you need practice to get the approach, decloak, and evade-spending decisions right; making mistakes or not understanding the list can sap it of its advantages.
  • Aces.  If you can dodge the beef arcs and initiative-kill (or crit-cripple) what can shoot at you, that's a really good start.
    • Example: Vader with FCS + Hate; Maarek Stele with FCS + Marksmanship; Soontir with Predator and Shield Upgrade; 13-point initiative bid to cope with other ace lists (or 7 if you want to give Maarek a shield upgrade or something like that).
    • The problem such a list faces is it's a lot more delicate and unforgiving than a beef list.  Beef can have a bad round and keep going; aces have a bad round and suddenly 1/3 or 2/3 of their list is gone or crippled.  You have to drag the beef through the asteroids to break them up, and really be cautious with your approach, favoring no exchange of shots over being greedy.

I was wondering if anyone could make suggestions.  Not just for this other player, but for me to.  I'm not just asking for a friend... I'm tired enough of fighting beef lists, I'd like to know what (if anything) picks them apart.  I'm not optimistic that he coming points update will properly deal with beef as a dominant strategy.  And... it's just so tedious to fight.  I got so tired of fighting Wedge+Cassian+Braylen+Ten Numb at our last casual tournament.

I'm probably going to continue flying quirky jank (and not attending most tournaments), but tis worth knowing in case that can shape my list design to make the beef lists less of a burden.  And I'd like to be able to give good advice to other players, even if I'm terrible at following it myself.  ;)

Edited by Wazat

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I'm told by my friend who flies Resistance 5s that, whilst tricky, he usually beats beef.

In hyperspace, I've been flying Lando, Wedge, and Dutch and they can win by trading Dutch or Wedge for enough points - Lando is the end-game victor.

Or, apparently, 4 Starvipers can win in a sound and non-controversial manner... ;)

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Posted (edited)

lFat Han loves to eat Rebel Beef.

First take out one or more of the following: Cassian, Wedge, Dutch then the B-wings.  Cassian will take a few rounds of shots from multiple ships (as will Wedge).  They like riding in formation so try and split the squad up.  Flank the whole squad if you can, LOL!

Edited by pakirby

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Some of it depends on the flavour of beef in question - locally, I've been seeing a lot of durability and damage spreading focused versions of the list like the one below more than the Wedge variants.  The Biggs and Selfless combo can make actually killing anything at all pretty challenging, and it's a very different experience to play against than more offence-focused versions of the list.

Ten Numb (46)
Selfless (3)

Braylen Stramm (47)
Selfless (3)

Biggs Darklighter (48)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Cassian Andor (47)
Crack Shot (1)
Leia Organa (2)
Tactical Officer (2)
Pivot Wing (0)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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I know I've played it, but I can't recall who won.  I know it was close.  Wait...I won.  I remember now.  

Instead of perhaps lists, maybe it's more about strategy.   Personally, I would go with a counter "beef" list that can also dish out the damage.  If we are talking Extended, my favorite is 3 Kihraxzes, 1 Tractor Scyk, and a Gand Findsman.  One of the things that's good about this is what it also does....blocks.  If you can prevent the whole Leia thing from happening, you are good.  I usually fly the Findsman in the back and it is great to just take up room to prevent K-turns.  All the other ships have 1 Hard turns, which means you don't have to do a red move to turn around and they get it at White.  It also usually means you can get in close and fire away.  

I might have played with my Vader, Del Meeko, and 4 Acadmies list.  Tie Fighters are good because it takes such effort to kill one.   You usually have enough to throw out some blocks there to prevent actions.   Rebel Beef is usually flying in a block, so if you can bump some of them, you can prevent a lot of actions.   Vader is a heavy hitter that can put some serious damage on.  There are enough Tie Fighters to really whittle away at things, especially if you can get in R1 with a Focus and they have nothing.  

No matter what the list, leave the B-wings for last.   

I would think the best tools are:

  • Blocking
  • Lots of attack dice
  • Preventing their K-turns.  
  • Target priority (anyone but the B-wings, but mostly Wedge)

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Kylo, tavson, starkiller base pilot. 

Don't play Kylo like a doofus and you're fine. Those shuttles are happy outjousting beef. Take out Cassian and you just shut Braylen down. But if you can one round Wedge, take that first. 

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Tavson, Quickdraw, Muse and Rivas is a fun and flexible counter to Rebel beef, but it can struggle against dodgy aces. Depends on your local meta.

Concussion Missiles are fun against formation lists that spread damage around, and like the Uspilon, Jendon and Sai are cheap and even beefier answers to the Rebels. You don't need to outmaneuver B-Wings, just outlast them. Ion turrets/torps/missiles are decent too, when your targets are agility 1-2.

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Posted (edited)

The best counter to beef, no matter the list you bring, is denying them shots. Use arc dodging and/or range control to your advantage so they can’t get all the beef to focus down on something. 

I’ve beaten plenty of rebel beef with resistance 5s. I’ve also out-beefed them with the republic squad making the rounds now.

Edited by ScummyRebel

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@Wazat

This is not bad at eating Beef for breakfast along with being able to melt the fat from Fat Han list's quickly as well.

This is not your everyday list it performs well and causes approach problems for the other player as they have to decide what ship they want to lose since they will most likely lose at least one ship in the first round of engagement.

Hit beef fast and hard Target priority Wedge/Cassian the others are cleanup/opportunity or just dance around them.Where you can ini kill/focus fire them down. You have to fly guuud as this list has some durability issues. The Alpha is a wrecking ball. 

I have been playing for a couple of years and brought it to hyperspace tourney recently (in May, my first ever), it and i did well. I wrecked 2 Falcon lists of different flavors and a double firespray list, games were over in like 30 minutes 200-0, 200-0, 200-63 (firesprays).

T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 69

    •Wedge Antilles - Red Two(52)

       Swarm Tactics (3)

        Proton Torpedoes (12)

        R4 Astromech (2)

        Servomotor S-foils (Closed) (0)

 

T-65 X-wing - •Thane Kyrell - 63

    •Thane Kyrell - Corona Four (48)

        Marksmanship (1)

        Proton Torpedoes (12)

        R4 Astromech (2)

        Servomotor S-foils (Closed) (0)

 

BTL-A4 Y-wing - •“Dutch” Vander - 62

    •“Dutch” Vander - Gold Leader (39)

        Ion Cannon Turret (43)

        Shield Upgrade (4)

        Proton Torpedoes (12)

        R3 Astromech (3)

Total: 194

You can shed the ICT to increase your bid if you want, once in a while it is useful though.

 

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bombs.

I'm 3-0 against beef since trying out Vennie vs Beef. 6-1 overall against the field since I found my optimized variant. (only loss vs trip silencers, and it was bloody close)

 

Vennie (62)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
C-3PO (6)
Seismic Charges (3)
Proton Bombs (5)

Tallissan Lintra (35)
Heroic (1)

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

Beef doesn't like to be bombed! I shove vennie in there lobbing seismic on approach. I let him get burned down, but he does a lot of damage before he does. Especially since he gets double calculate even when stopping. After that, Tallie and Poe clean up. As long as Wedge and the U wing die before Vennie dies (or are hanging on by a thread) the B-wings cannot keep up with Poe/Tallie. I hide Poe far out of engagement and swirling around ready to pounce. Usually by the time Vennie dies Tallie and Poe are still full health. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

bombs.

I'm 3-0 against beef since trying out Vennie vs Beef. 6-1 overall against the field since I found my optimized variant. (only loss vs trip silencers, and it was bloody close)

 

Vennie (62)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
C-3PO (6)
Seismic Charges (3)
Proton Bombs (5)

Tallissan Lintra (35)
Heroic (1)

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

Beef doesn't like to be bombed! I shove vennie in there lobbing seismic on approach. I let him get burned down, but he does a lot of damage before he does. Especially since he gets double calculate even when stopping. After that, Tallie and Poe clean up. As long as Wedge and the U wing die before Vennie dies (or are hanging on by a thread) the B-wings cannot keep up with Poe/Tallie. I hide Poe far out of engagement and swirling around ready to pounce. Usually by the time Vennie dies Tallie and Poe are still full health. 

I would only think this works because a lot of beef players forget that it's possible to fly their squad beyond r1 of each other and out of formation.  Otherwise it's attack Vennie from the sides and he goes down doing absolutely nothing.  Sure, if you approach him as a R1 blob from the front he does bad things to you...but....there's other options.

Edited by viedit

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, viedit said:

I would only think this works because a lot of beef players forget that it's possible to fly their squad beyond r1 of each other and out of formation.  Otherwise it's attack Vennie from the sides and he goes down doing absolutely nothing.  Sure, if you approach him as a R1 blob from the front he does bad things to you...but....there's other options.

since it's not the double tap build I keep the arcs to the side :) use Vennie to bump and grind. I tried Bob for the same tactic, but he dies way faster. Vennie with Tallie can average 1 green die + focus result, and if Tallie lines up bullseye 2 green die + focus result. makes him tanky AF. 

 

but yes, rebel beef players seem to forget they don't need to fly as a clump. I fly the selfless/biggs version of Beef (Blue U w/Leia, Selfless Braylen w/Shield, Selfless Ten w/shield, Biggs) and it just doesn't die. But I would hate to see tragedy bombers using it.

The beef that is being flown local is either Wedge/Cassian/Ten/Braylen, Wedge/Cassian/2 Y, Wedge/Cassian/Braylen/Biggs. and they always clump up. They are going for double swarm tactic chains too... so Wedge/Braylen/+1 all shooting @ 6

Edited by Wiredin

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

but yes, rebel beef players seem to forget they don't need to fly as a clump. I fly the selfless/biggs version of Beef (Blue U w/Leia, Selfless Braylen w/Shield, Selfless Ten w/shield, Biggs) and it just doesn't die. But I would hate to see tragedy bombers using it.

Those s-foils need room to be flappy.  Also, have not lost to beef with it.

 

flappy.thumb.jpg.b3ca2846b8a91655af92832b891fa62c.jpg

Edited by viedit

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Isolate Wedge if you can and wipe him out.

Some folks say Cass because he's carrying Leia, but Wedge will tear you up if you don't address him, especially if he's of the Swarm Tactics variety.

Selfless is a PITA (pain in the ash) upgrade to play against though, so try to find a way to separate those Selfless ships somehow (blocking, Tractor Beam, Ionization, etc.) or giving hits from bombs/mines.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
(2) Leia Organa
Points: 67

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
Points: 65

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
Points: 65

Total points: 197

If all else fails, fly the above list.

If all else fails, cheat?  Because that list isn't legal--Lothal Rebels are 68 points.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/f1/24/f124ed5c-fcb1-4a1c-b2e0-6420b2eeb0b7/onlinepoints_rebelalliance_wave3.pdf

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, viedit said:

Kylo, tavson, starkiller base pilot. 

Don't play Kylo like a doofus and you're fine. Those shuttles are happy outjousting beef. Take out Cassian and you just shut Braylen down. But if you can one round Wedge, take that first. 

Alternatively, drop Hate from Kylo to give Tavson biohexacrypt (long range coordinate) and change that starkiller to Thannison. With so many self-stressers within Rebel Beef, Thannison has a field day. Either he scares them and they don't self-stress (and thus nerfing them already) or they forget/YOLO anyway and endure the tractor. That rock that the b-wing failed its roll on? Well now it has 0 agility and is sitting on top of that rock. That arc that the b-wing was going to swing with the coordinated focus/roll? Well now you can boost him to swing him into a different ship/rock. 

Edited by player3010587

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25 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
(2) Leia Organa
Points: 67

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
Points: 65

(65) Lothal Rebel [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
Points: 65

Total points: 197

If all else fails, fly the above list.

Fun to see my points being used outside of my thread, but no. Haha.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Alternatively, drop Hate from Kylo to give Tavson biohexacrypt (long range coordinate) and change that starkiller to Thannison. With so many self-stressers within Rebel Beef, Thannison has a field day. Either he scares them and they don't self-stress (and thus nerfing them already) or they forget/YOLO anyway and endure the tractor. That rock that the b-wing failed its roll on? Well now it has 0 agility and is sitting on top of that rock. That arc that the b-wing was going to swing with the coordinated focus/roll? Well now you can boost him to swing him into a different ship/rock. 

I always have a hard time keeping Thanisson in range. Upsilons suck at range control and if they do land it, they end up getting chased for the rest of the game.

I've considered EB on Upsilons so they can just sit pretty for a couple turns and force the enemy to pass them so they get a shot again, but it comes at a pretty significant damage cost and clearly telegraphs your intentions, while leaving you modless, so it sounds like a losing proposition.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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