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Getting frustrated by lack of progress/updates on the SSD

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11 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

That depends, is it slacking when they take time off after saying they were deliberately taking time off?

Because that’s all the Legion lull is - a started time off.

 

Legion has had more releases overall, but that was part and parcel of getting the game up to speed to be competitive in its field. 

I mean, we can complain about slacking all we want...  We’re  no Runewars after all...

The lull could be related to them swapping miniature material. 

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7 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

The lull could be related to them swapping miniature material. 

If that were the case, and it very well may be, would a little communication kill them? We got the article saying that the SSD was delayed due to "unique challenges". It doesn't get much more cryptic than that.

I know I'm beating a dead Armada horse, but communication is the key. And I know they post things on Twitter and FriendFace, but I don't use any of those social experiments. It doesn't take more than a Ctrl+c, Ctrl+v to get that info on all their platforms.

/end rant

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2 hours ago, thestag said:

If that were the case, and it very well may be, would a little communication kill them? We got the article saying that the SSD was delayed due to "unique challenges". It doesn't get much more cryptic than that.

I know I'm beating a dead FFG horse, but communication is the key. And I know they post things on Twitter and FriendFace, but I don't use any of those social experiments. It doesn't take more than a Ctrl+c, Ctrl+v to get that info on all their platforms.

/end rant

ftfy

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3 hours ago, thestag said:

It doesn't get much more cryptic than that.

They went into a bit more detail at one of the talks (at Celebration); it isn't just how big it is but how complicated. Something like 10-12 times the amount of tooling for anything else and around 200 different pieces that each have to be hand painted and assembled. It's not as simple as it being twice as big as anything else so taking twice as long, it's way, way more complicated and the timing likely scales non-linearly.

They did say at Celebration that it was expected "this summer" which might be July as hinted above, probably before September. If all goes to plan.

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I don’t know if I want new ships or old ships tuned more. I like playing, and have spent more money than I should. But I still only get to play about once a month. It’s tough carving out time for a four hour game, plus the prep time it requires making a fleet. And competitions are somehow always on weekends when I’ve got plans already made. 

 

But seven waves in, I’d just as soon have my wave one and two ships and squadrons and upgrades brought into harmony. That would be a whole new game for me, and give me a lot more replay value than a single new ship for my side. 

 

I don’t know how thats done. I’m a video gamer and eurogamer where these are either solved issues digitally or no issues because games don’t expand year after year.

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12 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

I don’t know if I want new ships or old ships tuned more. I like playing, and have spent more money than I should. But I still only get to play about once a month. It’s tough carving out time for a four hour game, plus the prep time it requires making a fleet. And competitions are somehow always on weekends when I’ve got plans already made. 

 

But seven waves in, I’d just as soon have my wave one and two ships and squadrons and upgrades brought into harmony. That would be a whole new game for me, and give me a lot more replay value than a single new ship for my side. 

 

I don’t know how thats done. I’m a video gamer and eurogamer where these are either solved issues digitally or no issues because games don’t expand year after year.

Unfortunately it's not all that profitable to fix old ships, which is a balance problem across all of gaming. You could look at GW's model with rose tinted glasses and say "Just release a book with better rules for weak ships!" (a new codex), but the reality is that they have little incentive to make the old ships you already own good. If you could spend $20 on buying updated rules, then they miss out on the $100 you'd spend on a new wave to spice things up. I might be oversimplifying, but it's what I've seen after nearly 20 years of miniatures gaming. Seems like it's only profitable to keep moving the goal, forcing you to buy the new hotness. The other alternative would be to "finish" a game... 

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19 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Unfortunately it's not all that profitable to fix old ships, which is a balance problem across all of gaming. You could look at GW's model with rose tinted glasses and say "Just release a book with better rules for weak ships!" (a new codex), but the reality is that they have little incentive to make the old ships you already own good. If you could spend $20 on buying updated rules, then they miss out on the $100 you'd spend on a new wave to spice things up. I might be oversimplifying, but it's what I've seen after nearly 20 years of miniatures gaming. Seems like it's only profitable to keep moving the goal, forcing you to buy the new hotness. The other alternative would be to "finish" a game... 

That's more than oversimplifying. If you compare products, than you shouldn't look at the price only but on the margin of profit a company can make by selling. A cheaper product can be more interesting, it it causes less costs. To produce a SW:A ship or squadron expansion needs plenty of time for developing and producing the miniatures. A box with ship cards (and ship tokens) only could be developed faster and easier. It also could be a good marketing strategy to hold up (or revive) interest in already developed products or the game as such.

When you say that's your experience after nearly 20 years of miniatures gaming, then you forget about: The Corellian Conflict, which brought no minis, but new cards for squadrons and new objectives to the game (along with the rules and tokens for the campaign). Same with the next campaign box. There will be even new upgrades like ship titles.

They did an "upgrade" for ISDs with the Chimaera expansion. There they did't need to develop a new miniature (only for the Mandalorian Gauntlet).

When we look at Legion we even see a "Card Pack" coming. So expansions without minis but additional rules and/or cards for a game are not as uncommon as one may think. And I would say that even FFG seems to know.

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The difference is also a mentality one. For a long time, GW wasnt a GAME maker. They made Miniatures, then released rules to play with them. That shifted over the years until suddenly money men came into the picture. Its sorta back to being a Mini's company that makes rules for them. IE: Primaris marines.

FFG is a game company, making a game. And developing add-ons and expansions for a game takes time. Its also a smaller company. So they have to keep hype rolling. They cant let the game set and just release things when its done like GW.

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Really good point @Ling27, another issue that FFG struggles with is the, in some cases, ridiculous delay on reprinting existing expansions. On the flip side GW would recast from molds that were long past their usable life, just to keep product on the shelf. I would love to to see reprinting somewhere in the middle.

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59 minutes ago, Triangular said:

When you say that's your experience after nearly 20 years of miniatures gaming, then you forget about: The Corellian Conflict, which brought no minis, but new cards for squadrons and new objectives to the game (along with the rules and tokens for the campaign). Same with the next campaign box. There will be even new upgrades like ship titles.

They did an "upgrade" for ISDs with the Chimaera expansion. There they did't need to develop a new miniature (only for the Mandalorian Gauntlet).

When we look at Legion we even see a "Card Pack" coming. So expansions without minis but additional rules and/or cards for a game are not as uncommon as one may think. And I would say that even FFG seems to know.

You're absolutely correct that FFG has acted differently than other companies, but it's still not far enough in my opinion. Corellian Conflict was a solid start, but it didn't revive old content as much as replace it. It brought in some Aces and some objectives that replaced others, but it didn't take unused ships (or objectives, for that matter) and make them better. I feel that the future of Armada lives or dies on the content within RitR, but even then we aren't talking about the same thing. A title that makes the Neb B better doesn't actually change what's wrong with the Neb B, it just gives you a workaround. What I'd love to see, and what I got the impression @ShoutingMan was talking about, is a rules/card pack that comes out saying "Listen, we know some things got out of whack over the years. This is just a re-balance." Not version 2.0, just tweaks to bring all the content in-line.

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I understood @ShoutingMan like he wished a pack with new ship cards and tokens for already existing ships (wave 1-2). And we more or less got that for the ISD, which is a wave 2 ship, in the Chimaera expansion. And it seemed to me, that you, @IronNerd, felt that to be unlikely.

But if we already got new ship cards and tokens for the ISD and we will get new titles in RitR, I could imagine that it wouldn't be a too far step to release "upgrading expansions" for the Nebulon or the Victory SD. And I think that could also be a good business move for FFG.

I -- for example -- never bought a third VSD. The moment we would get a sort of Chimaera expansion with a miniature*... I would probably buy that. I would prefer to get upgrade expansions without miniatures with 1 ship token and the according new ship cards, so I could buy just the amount I need/want. I think these would sell quite well and maybe would help to sell miniatures as well!


* If that miniature would be with open hatches at the side, that would be really a must-buy!

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4 hours ago, Triangular said:

I -- for example -- never bought a third VSD. The moment we would get a sort of Chimaera expansion with a miniature*... I would probably buy that. I would prefer to get upgrade expansions without miniatures with 1 ship token and the according new ship cards, so I could buy just the amount I need/want. I think these would sell quite well and maybe would help to sell miniatures as well!

It's the second part I doubt they will release. I have 4 VSDs, so I really don't want another miniature. Sell a cheap pack with just rules and cardboard and I'd buy one sight unseen, plus likely buy enough for 3 more VSDs. Same is true for Interdictors (own 3) and Neb Bs (own 4). The Pelta fix can come with a mini, I only own 1 and they are very pretty.

Regardless, I guess we all want the same thing this time around? If they ever went that direction, I'd be ecstatic!

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10 hours ago, IronNerd said:

You're absolutely correct that FFG has acted differently than other companies, but it's still not far enough in my opinion. Corellian Conflict was a solid start, but it didn't revive old content as much as replace it. It brought in some Aces and some objectives that replaced others, but it didn't take unused ships (or objectives, for that matter) and make them better. I feel that the future of Armada lives or dies on the content within RitR, but even then we aren't talking about the same thing. A title that makes the Neb B better doesn't actually change what's wrong with the Neb B, it just gives you a workaround. What I'd love to see, and what I got the impression @ShoutingMan was talking about, is a rules/card pack that comes out saying "Listen, we know some things got out of whack over the years. This is just a re-balance." Not version 2.0, just tweaks to bring all the content in-line.

Yes. Re-balance Armada. Not just add new upgrades to patch over problems, but address the underlying problems. Make Vader a scatter ace. Re-price VSD and maybe change its Nav chart  to be usable with Wave 7. Etc.

 

I can’t speak to the economics of this compared to just issuing another Wave. But I’ll conjecture that a $50 rule book can sell more products long term. If a new player takes up Armada, is anyone really telling them to buy a couple of VSDs and an Interdictor and more than one Gladiator? If the game was re-harmonized, all the unusable-in-Wave-7 ships can be again sold with aplomb to new buyers. 

 

But yeah, it’s a idealistic daydream. If Armada were digital, it would be doable. For a physical game, it quite hard.  :)

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36 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

If a new player takes up Armada, is anyone really telling them to buy a couple of VSDs and an Interdictor and more than one Gladiator?

No.

And that's the biggest issue with the core box as it sits. The corvette is the only ship that will see general use. Neb only hits the board with Yavaris, and a handful of squadrons. VSD should never see a game once an ISD is purchased. Either fix those ships (and so many others from early waves) or offer a different core box offering.

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9 minutes ago, thestag said:

No.

And that's the biggest issue with the core box as it sits. The corvette is the only ship that will see general use. Neb only hits the board with Yavaris, and a handful of squadrons. VSD should never see a game once an ISD is purchased. Either fix those ships (and so many others from early waves) or offer a different core box offering.

A Dcap VSD II with H9s and Gunnery Teams was the best flotilla Hunter. It saw the table more before THE RULE OF 2 and NEXT TIME ON ARMADA: LIFEBOAT. 

Some guy in our last casual tourney performed exceptionally well with a 4 VSD list. 

 

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I normally run 2 VSDs, 1 Glad and 3 Arquitens. I do decently with this. Ive been thinking of getting a third VSD, a second Glad, and maybe one more Arquitens... but that last one is just so I have a full naval squadron of 4.

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17 hours ago, IronNerd said:

You're absolutely correct that FFG has acted differently than other companies, <snip>

To be fair no company the size of FFG will reach the 'gamer first' level that Warlord Games have with their game Blood Red Skies........

Here for less than the cost of a 'sqn' (6 planes)box  have a box of cards to allow you to fly 6 types of aircraft we have no intention of making in the next few years

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56 minutes ago, Kani Kantai said:

You know, a few months ago I joked about which would come first, the SSD or Brexit, thinking both were - despite my whining - more than likely just around the corner.

 

Lol.

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