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Getting frustrated by lack of progress/updates on the SSD

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46 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

I see that ... and all I can think of it Hanlons razor...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

basically some one, somewhere in FFG has dropped the ball... either in planning, development or marketing of the SSD 

You're still attributing Malice to FFG with your statement.

 

What if it was the factory production mistake, parent licensing demands or mid-point changes, or tariff/shipping delays?

 

Or a Combination thereof?

 

There's lots of places outside of FFG where things could go wrong

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If the actions leading to a delay is outside of FFGs control then it becomes a marketing issue of communication to the potential customers aka us..... so we are at Marketing dropping the ball in how /when they communicate.

 

😛

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3 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

If the actions leading to a delay is outside of FFGs control then it becomes a marketing issue of communication to the potential customers aka us..... so we are at Marketing dropping the ball in how /when they communicate.

 

😛

Malice!

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58 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You're still attributing Malice to FFG with your statement.

 

What if it was the factory production mistake, parent licensing demands or mid-point changes, or tariff/shipping delays?

 

Or a Combination thereof?

 

There's lots of places outside of FFG where things could go wrong


Because even if that's true, it doesn't explain why there have no other products released in over 510 days (and even before that it was a relatively long time before Wave 7 dropped and gave us two "new" ships (repainted ISD variants being one of the ships), with so very little attention or communication from FFG to the Armada community, or why Armada isn't getting an Organized Play kit in this most recent premium kit cycle.

A lot of things could explain the SSD's sluggish release.  But when you look at the utter indifference and neglect Armada has received over the past two years, the inference to the best explanation for the SSD's pace probably could include a general lack of enthusiasm and support for the property at FFG.  FFG has already said they'll be announcing the return of HUGE SHIPS to X-Wing 2.0 at Gencon, and product will be on store shelves in early Q4 to start playing with huge ships in X-Wing.  Where there's a will, there's a way, and it's hard to believe that the will at FFG is really there for anything Armada-related.

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1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Because even if that's true, it doesn't explain why there have no other products released in over 510 days (and even before that it was a relatively long time before Wave 7 dropped and gave us two "new" ships (repainted ISD variants being one of the ships), with so very little attention or communication from FFG to the Armada community, or why Armada isn't getting an Organized Play kit in this most recent premium kit cycle.

A lot of things could explain the SSD's sluggish release.  But when you look at the utter indifference and neglect Armada has received over the past two years, the inference to the best explanation for the SSD's pace probably could include a general lack of enthusiasm and support for the property at FFG.  FFG has already said they'll be announcing the return of HUGE SHIPS to X-Wing 2.0 at Gencon, and product will be on store shelves in early Q4 to start playing with huge ships in X-Wing.  Where there's a will, there's a way, and it's hard to believe that the will at FFG is really there for anything Armada-related.

Was wondering when you'd show back up :)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The FFG business model does baffle... Some how this old VGcats comic comes to mind...

8uThgWl.png



I mean, this cartoon sort of misses an important point, though.  Supply and Demand is a more complicated issue when you're dealing with modern means of production.  Let's imagine you make a Widget.  It is super popular.  You made and sold 100,000 Widgets quickly, and 20,000 people still want Widgets.  Should you print more Widgets?  Well, it depends.  Let's say given the overseas means of production and costs of firing up and staffing the factory and shipping the widgets, you have to make at least a 100,000 at a time.  Is it worth making 100,000 more Widgets to satisfy the expressed demand of those 20,000 people?  NO, not if it means ending up with 80,000 unsold Widgets, you'd actually end up making less money than if you had just made the 100,000 and sold out, given the lost costs of production and shipping of making two batches and ending up with 80,000 unsold widgets.

Given this, sometimes selling less product actually means making more profitIt's all about trying to find that perfect sweet spot of making just enough "batches" to come up a bit shy of demand or just a bit over demand.  But if you have to err, generally better to err on the side of leaving demand slightly unsatisfied rather than oversatisfied.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Was wondering when you'd show back up :)


Just for you, Dras, I'm going to stick around and see this thing through until the SSD shows up.  So you're stuck with me... but don't worry it's probably only for another 200 days... 🤣:P:)

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



I mean, this cartoon sort of misses an important point, though.  Supply and Demand is a more complicated issue when you're dealing with modern means of production.  Let's imagine you make a Widget.  It is super popular.  You made and sold 100,000 Widgets quickly, and 20,000 people still want Widgets.  Should you print more Widgets?  Well, it depends.  Let's say given the overseas means of production and costs of firing up and staffing the factory and shipping the widgets, you have to make at least a 100,000 at a time.  Is it worth making 100,000 more Widgets to satisfy the expressed demand of those 20,000 people?  NO, not if it means ending up with 80,000 unsold Widgets, you'd actually end up making less money than if you had just made the 100,000 and sold out, given the lost costs of production and shipping of making two batches and ending up with 80,000 unsold widgets.

Given this, sometimes selling less product actually means making more profitIt's all about trying to find that perfect sweet spot of making just enough "batches" to come up a bit shy of demand or just a bit over demand.  But if you have to err, generally better to err on the side of leaving demand slightly unsatisfied rather than oversatisfied.

You're not wrong, but when specifically considering FFG's history with supply and demand (The last 2 years alone I saw 4 or 5 expansions, some even from other games, that typically sell for $15 sell for $80+ because FFG failed to print enough and failed to initiate reprints in a timely manner) the comic certain comes close to being accurate. (Though I believe this comic was originally in reference to the ps3 launch, where not enough units were made to meet demand while the Wii took off in sales because they were widely available.)  Either way, FFG's not taking a loss on X-wing, Armada, or Legion... 

More importantly though the comic was mostly just in reference to the second strip in concerns with the SSD and new Armada ships....

"I don't have the supplies, and they demand it! It's that simple"

That quote is what reminded me of our situation..


 

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

(Though I believe this comic was originally in reference to the ps3 launch, where not enough units were made to meet demand while the Wii took off in sales because they were widely available.) 

You're not wrong, either.  The really cynical side of me sometimes wonders if Armada was intentionally back-burnered/tanked to try and consolidate "Star Wars tabletop gamers" to Destiny, X-Wing 2.0, and Legion.  In some ways, FFG has repeatedly cannabilized it's own Star Wars player base as they've released Star Wars game after Star Wars game after Star Wars game, with some chunk of the initial X-Wing community going to Imperial Assault, Armada, Destiny, and Legion respectively.  I can recall how the local X-Wing community shrunk noticeably after Armada launched and how that happened in the X-Wing community again after Destiny launched.  There are only so many Star Wars loving gamers to go around, and few people have the funds and no one has the time to really dive into a half-dozen different games.

So, kill the supply for the Star Wars LCG, Imperial Assault, and Armada in order to redirect and consolidate more demand under fewer, more profitable Star Wars product lines?  Certainly isn't inconceivable, and from a business perspective would actually make sense.  If you're basically selling your Star Wars wares to the same finite group of customers who all have some set amount of disposable income, better to just collect that disposable income with three product lines rather than six product lines, no?

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

better to just collect that disposable income with three product lines rather than six product lines, no?

I suppose it depends on the target demographic.

For me, X-wing will never be a replacement for Armada. I do not enjoy the game. At all. In fact I'd go as far to say that X-wing has really only ever induced rage. I hate the dice, I hate the ace focused theme, I genuinely hate the game. 

While I may dislike it more than most, I know many Armada players simply do not see X-wing as a suitable alternate. In this way, a business has to be careful not to alienate their consumer base to a competitor. 

I'm cynical, I think Armada has been mismanaged, I think it has to do with X-wing and Legion being so dysfunctional that they actually need(ed)  the attention to stay afloat. I don't think they'd be foolish enough to pull the plug on Armada. They have the leading fleet combat game (as far as I'm aware), losing that lead has to mean losing money. 

I suppose the business alternative would be to focus on systems 2(? whatever they can manage, seems to be 2 or 3) at a time alternating needed attention back and forth. I'm hoping that's the case. With X-wing 2.0 and Legion starting to level out, I'm hoping we'll see Armada take off. (they could certainly make bank selling clone wars factions and ships for Armada....)



 

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The point for me, is that if you are cynically winding up a system in order to transition a limited purchaser group over to an existing line, you've got to actually *force a transition*.  You don't keep giving out hope, and *Hope* is what they've given with their statement of 2 More ships this year, plus the Clone Wars in 2020...   

All of that runs counter to the concept.  The SSD would have to be *it* if that was the goal, otherwise you're being cynical about your cynical winding up and not actually transitioning...  You're doing the opposite.

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I think the main issue, is that XWING and LEGION require constant attention. Its like Call of Duty, it requires yearly upkeep in order to keep it afloat, with new points, updated rules, and shiny new models.

Armada is like Gears or Halo. The occasional patch to maintain balance, but can generally thrive for a good ammount of time before needing anything major. And you can see this clearly between release cycles and cost. Armada costs more to play. (Excuse my USD base, I dont know other locations prices) Its $100 compaired to $40ish for XWING also has all the cool named squadrons and stuff. And while ARMADA does have that, the Target Audience is FAR easier to target with WXING.

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2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

You're not wrong, either.  The really cynical side of me sometimes wonders if Armada was intentionally back-burnered/tanked to try and consolidate "Star Wars tabletop gamers" to Destiny, X-Wing 2.0, and Legion.  In some ways, FFG has repeatedly cannabilized it's own Star Wars player base as they've released Star Wars game after Star Wars game after Star Wars game, with some chunk of the initial X-Wing community going to Imperial Assault, Armada, Destiny, and Legion respectively.  I can recall how the local X-Wing community shrunk noticeably after Armada launched and how that happened in the X-Wing community again after Destiny launched.  There are only so many Star Wars loving gamers to go around, and few people have the funds and no one has the time to really dive into a half-dozen different games.

So, kill the supply for the Star Wars LCG, Imperial Assault, and Armada in order to redirect and consolidate more demand under fewer, more profitable Star Wars product lines?  Certainly isn't inconceivable, and from a business perspective would actually make sense.  If you're basically selling your Star Wars wares to the same finite group of customers who all have some set amount of disposable income, better to just collect that disposable income with three product lines rather than six product lines, no?

It was and wasn't intentional.  I think FFG would love to be producing more Armada product, its just that the demand isn't as high as it is for X-wing and Armada.  The problem is that FFG has limited production partners in China.  They are pretty critical about the quality and type of material they will accept and have only found a small base of production they can work with that meets their standards.  This creates a bottleneck of production where they can't meet the demand of all their product lines while also staying fully stocked of past releases.  So they have to prioritize their supply line, and the prioritize Armada towards the bottom.

Trying to get new production facilities may be economically unsound.  Finding a company to produce their product at their quality might take a pretty good chunk of change, and then that producer is going to want long term contracts to produce for years to recover the investment.  However FFG can't really predict their supply needs all that far out, especially when so much of their product is tied to relatively short term IP contracts.

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2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

The point for me, is that if you are cynically winding up a system in order to transition a limited purchaser group over to an existing line, you've got to actually *force a transition*.  You don't keep giving out hope, and *Hope* is what they've given with their statement of 2 More ships this year, plus the Clone Wars in 2020...  


This is true, but they've had no problem killing off that hope for the LCG players and the Imperial Assault players (though these games had much clearer direct competition in Destiny and Legion, respectively).  That Armada has persisted is curious, though may be tied to the SSD in no small way.  If it's true that the thing was initially developed back during Corellian Conflict, that means they sunk a bunch of resources into model renders, art, developer/tester time, and possibly even had the molds made and worked out the packaging.  The desire to return the investment and get the thing on shelves may have helped tipped the scales toward keeping Armada around.

But going two years with nothing to purchase for your game is very much nudging a transition, since all that time/energy/money of the fans is likely to be spent on something by Armada players, making it more likely they'll be tempted into dabbling in Destiny, X-Wing 2.0, or Legion.

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7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


This is true, but they've had no problem killing off that hope for the LCG players and the Imperial Assault players (though these games had much clearer direct competition in Destiny and Legion, respectively).  That Armada has persisted is curious, though may be tied to the SSD in no small way.  If it's true that the thing was initially developed back during Corellian Conflict, that means they sunk a bunch of resources into model renders, art, developer/tester time, and possibly even had the molds made and worked out the packaging.  The desire to return the investment and get the thing on shelves may have helped tipped the scales toward keeping Armada around.

But going two years with nothing to purchase for your game is very much nudging a transition, since all that time/energy/money of the fans is likely to be spent on something by Armada players, making it more likely they'll be tempted into dabbling in Destiny, X-Wing 2.0, or Legion.

Its SWM-20

Its been longer than Corellian Conflict, which is 25.  The Pelta is SWM-21.

But the point remains, why *return* investment at this point, if you've expected people to transition out.  Especially with a big ticket item?

 

No, I think it was just a smaller design department, and mixed priorities only...  I mean, you can tell the amount of developer credits in the bits and pieces...  And the names are often attached to other projects, too - there's fewer people who are exclusively Armada.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:



While I may dislike it more than most, I know many Armada players simply do not see X-wing as a suitable alternate.

I'm cynical, I think Armada has been mismanaged, I think it has to do with X-wing and Legion being so dysfunctional that they actually need(ed)  the attention to stay afloat.

I'd generally agree with this. I played x-wing for a year and eventually grew to hate it (green dice in that game drive me nuts). 

 

2 hours ago, Ling27 said:

I think the main issue, is that XWING and LEGION require constant attention. Its like Call of Duty, it requires yearly upkeep in order to keep it afloat, with new points, updated rules, and shiny new models.

Armada is like Gears or Halo. The occasional patch to maintain balance, but can generally thrive for a good ammount of time before needing anything major. And you can see this clearly between release cycles and cost. Armada costs more to play. (Excuse my USD base, I dont know other locations prices) Its $100 compaired to $40ish for XWING also has all the cool named squadrons and stuff. And while ARMADA does have that, the Target Audience is FAR easier to target with WXING.

I...don't think gears or halo are doing great currently. People seemed to have hated 4 (i bought it a bit back for like 8 dollars, still haven't tried it) and halo is in a weird mess of a place to most fans. 

I think my biggest issue with your argument though is the idea that armada is thriving. It more feels like it's in a weird undead state where it seems like we're going to get more content and that's cool but it's a PAIN to try to get new people into and we're going on 18 months of no new content. 

Regardless I'm trying, again, to build the community up. I've started a weekly gaming group at a local shop that I've been advertising and plan on running a RitR campaign as soon as it drops. Still not SUPER hyped on the future of the game, its progress just seems to slow to maintain a community that isn't absolutely dedicated to it. 

 

40 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

No, I think it was just a smaller design department, and mixed priorities only...  I mean, you can tell the amount of developer credits in the bits and pieces...  And the names are often attached to other projects, too - there's fewer people who are exclusively Armada.

 

And this is probably the biggest problem this game has, ffg just isn't willing to commit to the success of their product for this game. It reminds me a bit of sony dragging the marvel properties along by making pretty s-it movies (and I even like andrew garfield) just to keep another company/marvel from getting the rights to those IP's. 

/shrug, that's my weekly visit, by everyone. 

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1 hour ago, dominosfleet said:

...I think my biggest issue with your argument though is the idea that armada is thriving. It more feels like it's in a weird undead state...

We have different personal definitions of thrive I used it in the context that the game doesnt need to be watched over like a toddler in a play area.

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I’ve pretty much given up on FFG in general. I’d looked at getting the Clones for Legion, but after the debacle with Armada, and seeing them starting to slack off on Legion, I’m actually looking back at GE for my gaming needs 😒 (We won’t go into Knight Models and their completely absent customer service and quality control).

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5 hours ago, emsgoof said:

I’ve pretty much given up on FFG in general. I’d looked at getting the Clones for Legion, but after the debacle with Armada, and seeing them starting to slack off on Legion, I’m actually looking back at GE for my gaming needs 😒 (We won’t go into Knight Models and their completely absent customer service and quality control).

Are they slacking on Legion? Haven’t they had more releases than Armada already?

Armada is the game that is slacking for sure.

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56 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

Are they slacking on Legion? Haven’t they had more releases than Armada already?

Armada is the game that is slacking for sure.

That depends, is it slacking when they take time off after saying they were deliberately taking time off?

Because that’s all the Legion lull is - a started time off.

 

Legion has had more releases overall, but that was part and parcel of getting the game up to speed to be competitive in its field. 

I mean, we can complain about slacking all we want...  We’re  no Runewars after all...

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