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Is the T-47 a better choice than speeder bikes? We discuss.

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Join us on this journey of random topics ranging from speeder bikes to the T-47.

 

https://podcast.thefifthtrooper.com/e/star-wars-legion-podcast-ep-43-the-show-about-nothing/

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I whish you good luck and fun on friday, but I  am definetly on Nick Allen's side of that argument.

1. The joust situation vs the ATST is not very relevant, because both units suck in that situation.

2. The cheap upgrade that makes the bikes resilient agianst chip damage from snipers allready exists. Astromechs can do that.

3. 4 Bikes have exactly twice the damage output of a snowspeeder. That is not even close. That turd is much more fancy.

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2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

They are not a choice at all since they are in different armies.

Hey now, they could be if they were turning up to a special homebrew tournament! Like the ones you've mentioned before.

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4 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

I whish you good luck and fun on friday, but I  am definetly on Nick Allen's side of that argument.

1. The joust situation vs the ATST is not very relevant, because both units suck in that situation.

2. The cheap upgrade that makes the bikes resilient agianst chip damage from snipers allready exists. Astromechs can do that.

3. 4 Bikes have exactly twice the damage output of a snowspeeder. That is not even close. That turd is much more fancy.

Sure, the bikes have more offense, but they also suffer damage at a much faster rate, since they lack armor and therefore have to save against all hits. (And they attrit that damage after just 3 wounds)

 

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Posted (edited)

Ill probably have another aneurysm but here we go anyway. It isn't a comparison between a T-47 and a unit of speeder bikes. It is a comparison between a T-47 and 2 units of speeder bikes. A unit of bikes is only 90 points compared to the 175 of the T-47

Objectives:

Moisture Vaporators: Neither can contribute.
Recover Supplies: Neither can contribute.
Key Positions: Unit leaders can contribute not just troopers. Both can contribute. 2 units of bikes do this 2 times more effectively than 1 T-47.
Transmissions: Neither can contribute.
Breakthrough: Unit leaders can contribute not just troopers. Both can contribute. 2 units of bikes do this 2 times more effectively than 1 T-47.

So right away the bikes are going to help you actually win more often than the T-47 but lets also consider damage output. Both have speeder, which if you are using correctly probably means you get to aim before you shoot. Not going to consider defense dice because neither unit has pierce so it is irrelevant to the comparison. (Double check my numbers, I have a habit of clicking the wrong button on my calculator which you can find here:

Damage Results:
1 Bike Unit - Average: 4.69 Median: 5 Mode: 5
T-47 - Average: 4.77 Median: 5 Mode: 5
Neither one surges to crit, there is no advantage either way if target has cover. The damage output is the same for a single unit. But there are TWO bike units. I know which is better here.

Damage Against Armour:
1 Bike Unit - Average: 2.9 Median: 3 Mode: 3
T-47 - Average: 3.79 Median: 4 Mode: 4
A single T-47 does outperform a single bike unit here but, again, there are two bike units. I know which is better here.

An additional point about the bikes is that because there are two of them they are more versatile. With the T-47 if you need 2 damage to kill an AT-RT you can't then use the left over damage somewhere else. With the bikes the first unit can kill the AT-RT while the second can damage something else, and that isn't even considering the advantages an extra activation brings to the overall game.

So lets consider survivability against some common units. Ill assume the attacker is aiming.

Against the DLT both units have cover 1 so both expect to take 1 damage. That's a draw. You can give the T-47 cover 2 but if you also consider the regular troopers shooting then that extra cover makes no difference. In the case with the whole squad shooting the bikes expect to take 2 damage. That is 7 shots to kill the T-47, 6 shots to kill the 2 units of bikes. Slight advantage to the T-47 but I wouldn't consider that significant.

Snow Troopers with impact grenades and a flamethrower (not counted for T-47 obviously):
T-47 expects to take 2 damage.
Bikes expect to take 3 damage.
In both cases it is 4 attacks to kill the unit(s). That's a draw.

Rebel Troopers with Z6:
T-47 expects to take 1 damage.
Bikes expect to take 2 damage
7 shots to kill the T-47, 6 shots to kill 2 units of bikes. Slight win to T-47.

The thing the T-47 is 'meant' to kill - Occupier Tank with Hammers Pilot and RT-97C Pintle:
T-47 expects to take 2 damage.
Bikes expect to take 3 damage.
In both cases it is 4 attacks to kill the unit(s). That's a draw and I give it the weapon which favors the T-47.

Snipers (ill use rebel but the numbers are similar for both).
T-47 expects to take 0 damage.
Bikes expect to take 1 damage.
This is the only situation where the T-47 is significantly better than bikes. That said if I am an imperial player with 3 sniper teams and 2 bikes and your 3 snipers are shooting at my bikes while my snipers shoot at your snipers I think I am happy. Its unlikely that you'll manage to finish off the bikes before I finish off your snipers, at which point I have 3 snipers and some bikes left while your snipers are gone.

I also think that it is quite a bad choice to send your speeder units in to kill enemy snipers. They have to push too far forward to do so letting the opponent focus them down while the rest of your army plays catch up.

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

Sure, the bikes have more offense, but they... attrit that damage after just 3 wounds)

I really don't see how that makes up for the above.

Edited by Qark
Grammer

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3 hours ago, Qark said:

Ill probably have another aneurysm but here we go anyway.

50 points to Gryffindor for effort. I agree with you and yes, the bikes are "the lesser evil". If you have to shoot you in the leg before a game the bikes at least give you some firepower to pay for its points.

Another point. One T47 = 1 activation. 2 bike units = 2 activations.

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@Qark

Right, so two units is 180 points. And if you want to give them comms upgrades, we're looking at ~+10 points per bike, up to 200 points (at which point we might as well factor in the ground buzzer, that increases the average damage of the 47 to 5.75; vs the average of 7.5 for both bike units. So still in favor of the two units of bikes, albeit less of an advantage.

The difference maker really is the durability of the unit and the number of activations required to fully realize the two bike units offensive potential.

I think you're accurate on the effectiveness in general for objectives being the same; although breakthrough does depend on the units surviving however, for which the 47 is at an advantage. Also, Speeder 2 on the 47 means it can traverse cover that is twice the height of what a speederbike can (speeder 1).

Similarly, the 47 has a model height advantage, meaning that it can visually see past some cover the bikes cannot (which actually means the target unit would not receive cover from that attack; unless it's built in cover).

I agree with you that the speederbikes have initially higher damage output. They just won't live long to enjoy it.

@Qark
"So lets consider survivability against some common units. Ill assume the attacker is aiming.

 Against the DLT both units have cover 1 so both expect to take 1 damage. That's a draw. You can give the T-47 cover 2 but if you also consider the regular troopers shooting then that extra cover makes no difference. In the case with the whole squad shooting the bikes expect to take 2 damage. That is 7 shots to kill the T-47, 6 shots to kill the 2 units of bikes. Slight advantage to the T-47 but I wouldn't consider that significant. 

Snow Troopers with impact grenades and a flamethrower (not counted for T-47 obviously):
 T-47 expects to take 2 damage.
 Bikes expect to take 3 damage.
 In both cases it is 4 attacks to kill the unit(s). That's a draw. 

Rebel Troopers with Z6:
 T-47 expects to take 1 damage.
 Bikes expect to take 2 damage
 7 shots to kill the T-47, 6 shots to kill 2 units of bikes. Slight win to T-47. 

The thing the T-47 is 'meant' to kill - Occupier Tank with Hammers Pilot and RT-97C Pintle:
 T-47 expects to take 2 damage.
 Bikes expect to take 3 damage.
 In both cases it is 4 attacks to kill the unit(s). That's a draw and I give it the weapon which favors the T-47. 

Snipers (ill use rebel but the numbers are similar for both).
 T-47 expects to take 0 damage.
 Bikes expect to take 1 damage.
 This is the only situation where the T-47 is significantly better than bikes. That said if I am an imperial player with 3 sniper teams and 2 bikes and your 3 snipers are shooting at my bikes while my snipers shoot at your snipers I think I am happy. Its unlikely that you'll manage to finish off the bikes before I finish off your snipers, at which point I have 3 snipers and some bikes left while your snipers are gone. 

I also think that it is quite a bad choice to send your speeder units in to kill enemy snipers. They have to push too far forward to do so letting the opponent focus them down while the rest of your army plays catch up."

Aim tokens do far more against the speederbikes, as every hit counts, not just every crit. (Also, your numbers lined up with the assumption the attacker is 'not' aiming).
The DLT squad averages such that two un-aimed shots kill a bike reducing its output to 1.875 from 3.75; that's a big drop.

Z-6 squad expects to deal < 1 damage to the 47 (.91667 wounds based on the expected 1.375 crit rolls)
That makes it 7.653 (i.e. closer to 8 attacks from a full squad).

You didn't compare it to commanders and operatives output, and it's worth noting that Luke and Vader's melee on average destroys at least one bike, but neither threatens the 47. (Chewbacca's melee (with tenacity) also averages enough to eliminate 1+ bikes per attack)

Leia and Veers both have sharpshooter, and with pierce inflict enough on average to destroy a bike in two hits.

Han can drop two Speederbikes (one from each unit) in as little as two attacks.
Boba Fett averages 2.5 (pierce 1, impact 1); and very likely destroys a speederbike with every attack, whereas it still requires ~5 attacks to kill the 47.

For heavies, the AT-ST's range 2 blast but no sharpshooter also favors the 47 over the 74s.

@Senjius
"Another point. One T47 = 1 activation. 2 bike units = 2 activations."

Two activations is not a plus here. It means your opponent has two opportunities to degrade the damage on one/both of those activations before you can be sure to use them. With the speederbikes being more fragile to having their output cut in half, that's a very real possibility. Then you end up having paid for damage output that's no longer there.

When it comes to damage output, it's much much better to have that damage concentrated in fewer activations. If you spread it out, it's very likely it won't be there when you want it (also, by concentrating that output, you reduce the enemy output by 'more' with any given activation).

Given that they're unique to each side, I don't want to get too down on the 74s, but they're not as good when it comes to survivability, and their damage edge won't get realized if an opponent targets them first, whereas the 47 will realize its damage potential, even if the opponent chooses to target it first (and once it has activated, if they continue to target it, they're forgoing damage against your remaining unactivated units).

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11 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Well I'm convinced. My rebels are taking speeder bikes instead of a snowspeeder from now on.

 You've just given me the idea of mounting 3 speeder bikes on a large base as a T47 stand-in.

It's lucky I'm broke- think of the chaos I would unleash otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Katarn said:

 You've just given me the idea of mounting 3 speeder bikes on a large base as a T47 stand-in.

It's lucky I'm broke- think of the chaos I would unleash otherwise.

Being ridden by Luke, Leia and Wicket, of course!

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1 hour ago, colki said:

Being ridden by Luke, Leia and Wicket, of course!

Alas, I try not to use movie characters.  It's a flaw.

Also, I'm pretty sure Wicket doesn't ride.  I can't remember the name of the vicious man eating alien that did ride a bike.


You know in 8 years when we get Ewok hang-gliders  they'll have low point costs and pierce on surging red dice, provoking threads with endless probability calculations taken out of context to prove the T47 is useful/terrible.

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9 hours ago, Katarn said:

 You've just given me the idea of mounting 3 speeder bikes on a large base as a T47 stand-in.

It's lucky I'm broke- think of the chaos I would unleash otherwise.

I'm sorely tempted to gift you the speeder bikes. I have some core set ones gathering dust on eBay.

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