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InfinityIncarnate

Force Power Manifestation System - An universal force point generation system.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Using force powers on PCs is outside the scope of what I was talking about, as PC are allowed to resist force powers on them. Simple use of the classic mind trick, could be done in a multitude of scenerio that doesn't involve a stressful situation, naturally they can evolve into one, but they can be kept from becoming that through the use of mind trick, and minion-level and rival-level npcs aren't allowed to resist against it.

He might hold the advantage, but that is ONLY, and that is with a big emphasis on only because Vader is holding back on his full capabilities, during every fight scene Luke has with Vader, there is only one fight where uses a little bit more of his capabilities, and that is in episode 5, but that's only really because Luke angers him. Vader has no intention of destroying Luke, which is why he's holding back, which is the ONLY reason Luke is able to seemingly hold the advantage. In the final battle, I don't think he's FR6 or 7, if anything he's closer to 4, there is simply too much progression to cover for him to be a 5, 6 or even a 7. He doesn't display anything that would indicate he's a force user at those levels you say.

But that was my point, you can only fail because you choose to fail - however that was what @HappyDaze pointed out, you can also failed because of lacking the resource point that allows you to take the opposite sided force point.

However, my point still is, that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use the other side of the force and that is incorrect according to lore, and there reason there will be times is due to two things:

  1. An attuned force user cannot in this system use the opposite force side of it's attunement.
  2. It requires one or more resources to use the opposite force side of it's attunement.

This creates scenarios where it will be impossible to use the opposite force side rather than it just being more difficult for a dark side user to use the light side of the force, but moreso that the light side user can't even when it supposed to be easier to use the dark side of the force. In my opinion that is big lore-break right there.

Sorry I miss typed PC and missed the N in NPC. And no, no situation in which a character is being mind tricked do I not require a roll. You are trying to influence the mind of another. In fact to use "mind trick" at all the power specifically states it is a "discipline vs discipline" check, even if you are using it against a minion it is still disc vs disc. It is a stressful social situation, you NEED them to believe something or you wouldnt be doing so. So no there is no situation in which a player uses the force against an NPC in which a die roll would not happen. It may just be the force die, but it is still a die roll. Abysol's "take a 10" are non stressful moments that have an infinite number of tries, like walking out of your room and calling the saber to you before you leave. No situations including NPC's will we just "take a 10", regardless of their minion status. And in all cases the dark side SHOULD be tempting, in the case of mind tricks it I would call it almost inherently dark as you are twisting the mind of another, so it is a fine line between tricking them and twisting them which I am perfectly fine being represented by the force die.

As far as Vader vs Luke in EPISODE 6.... Luke was holding back just as much as his father. In FACT according to the novel Luke was holding back MORE than his father as Luke "doesnt want to fight". His father was trying to pressure him into using the dark side, and to do that he needed to show Luke the dark side was stronger and the only way to beat him, but to do that he HAD to put Luke on his back foot and failed to do so at all turns which frustrated Vader more and more making him try harder and harder and use more and more of the dark side, meanwhile Luke stayed steadfast till the end with his sister, until that point Vader could feel how much stronger Luke was and Luke could feel his father trying harder and harder, but Luke didnt have to try any harder Vader could not push him to use the dark side through physical means, because Vader was not STRONG enough to force Luke to use the dark side. Luke is STRONGER than Vader by Return of the Jedi, if he wasn't the emperor wouldnt want him. This is a classic failing of A LOT of star wars fans who do not give Luke his proper due by the time of ROTJ. By the time of his battle with Vader Luke has caught up with and potentially SURPASSED his father, the emperor wouldnt replace vader with him if that wasn't the case. Just like he did not replace Dooku with Anakin until Anakin was stronger. So no by the time of RotJ Luke is AT LEAST FR 6, he is the mirror of his father, and potentially even stronger. Vader holding back is no longer an excuse because Luke is now holding back as well putting them on equal footing. Fact is according to Allies book, Luke is FR 3 by the time of the battle of hoth, probably FR 4 by the time he is finished with training with Yoda at the end of ESB and he is FR 6 same as his father by the time of RotJ. (the book only has the first one stated, but given the logical progression we see after that point this is the only line that makes sense).

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Sorry I miss typed PC and missed the N in NPC. And no, no situation in which a character is being mind tricked do I not require a roll. You are trying to influence the mind of another. In fact to use "mind trick" at all the power specifically states it is a "discipline vs discipline" check, even if you are using it against a minion it is still disc vs disc. It is a stressful social situation, you NEED them to believe something or you wouldnt be doing so. So no there is no situation in which a player uses the force against an NPC in which a die roll would not happen. It may just be the force die, but it is still a die roll.

No problem with the typo, that happens.
That is IF it's being resisted, minions are not allowed to resist force powers, I think it's only those who're allowed to resist you'd use that - guess thats a matter of rule interpretation. Though it could be argued that if one can freely generate force points to it, then it only makes sense they're allowed a save against it.

37 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

As far as Vader vs Luke in EPISODE 6.... Luke was holding back just as much as his father. In FACT according to the novel Luke was holding back MORE than his father as Luke "doesnt want to fight". His father was trying to pressure him into using the dark side, and to do that he needed to show Luke the dark side was stronger and the only way to beat him, but to do that he HAD to put Luke on his back foot and failed to do so at all turns which frustrated Vader more and more making him try harder and harder and use more and more of the dark side, meanwhile Luke stayed steadfast till the end with his sister, until that point Vader could feel how much stronger Luke was and Luke could feel his father trying harder and harder, but Luke didnt have to try any harder Vader could not push him to use the dark side through physical means, because Vader was not STRONG enough to force Luke to use the dark side. Luke is STRONGER than Vader by Return of the Jedi, if he wasn't the emperor wouldnt want him. This is a classic failing of A LOT of star wars fans who do not give Luke his proper due by the time of ROTJ. By the time of his battle with Vader Luke has caught up with and potentially SURPASSED his father, the emperor wouldnt replace vader with him if that wasn't the case. Just like he did not replace Dooku with Anakin until Anakin was stronger. So no by the time of RotJ Luke is AT LEAST FR 6, he is the mirror of his father, and potentially even stronger. Vader holding back is no longer an excuse because Luke is now holding back as well putting them on equal footing. Fact is according to Allies book, Luke is FR 3 by the time of the battle of hoth, probably FR 4 by the time he is finished with training with Yoda at the end of ESB and he is FR 6 same as his father by the time of RotJ. (the book only has the first one stated, but given the logical progression we see after that point this is the only line that makes sense).

Luke doesn't hold back in episode 5, he wants to kill Vader (for killing his father), it's only when Vader sows the seeds about him being the father that Luke becomes more hesistant in regards to killing him.
Vader could sense that Luke was strong in the force. One thing is being strong in the force and another being strong willed, those are not the same. Luke wanted turn Vader back to the light, and was willing to sacrifice himself to do so, thats how committed he was to it, and that takes immense willpower to force yourself to not fight, even when you know if you don't you will die.

No offense, but the so called "logical" progression you're talking about, is your subjective opinion about his force power. Vader in episode 6 was very much so holding back, as he wanted to him to turn, plus Vader had a massive amount of conflict within him as well, no he was not going full power on Luke, and you can clearly see it by is actions - Vader is constantly on the defensive, and he keeps trying to lure him over, with the final push being the threat to turn his sister when he doesn't want to turn - which is what makes Luke snap, fighting to protect what he loves. Furthermore, D20 SW puts Luke at then of episode 6 as a Jedi Guardian lvl 7 - that is the equivalent of a knight in terms of force power. So in terms of this system, he's at best be FR5 as thats a strong knight. FR6 represents a Jedi Master or Sith Lord, and FR7 is legendary. So if anything, considering that Vader (Anakin) is the chosen one, I'd say his force rating would be FR7 as the chosen is legendary. You give Luke far more credit than he deserves by saying he's a FR6 or FR7.

By the way corrected on a previous post what force level the D20 SW RP system puts him at, it's correctly reflected here in this post, but in the previous post - I wrote it was in the end of episode 6 he was at jedi knight level, but I misread the entry, it is in fact in the end of episode 6 he's a jedi knight in terms of force strength.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

No problem with the typo, that happens.
That is IF it's being resisted, minions are not allowed to resist force powers, I think it's only those who're allowed to resist you'd use that - guess thats a matter of rule interpretation. Though it could be argued that if one can freely generate force points to it, then it only makes sense they're allowed a save against it.

Luke doesn't hold back in episode 5, he wants to kill Vader (for killing his father), it's only when Vader sows the seeds about him being the father that Luke becomes more hesistant in regards to killing him.
Vader could sense that Luke was strong in the force. One thing is being strong in the force and another being strong willed, those are not the same. Luke wanted turn Vader back to the light, and was willing to sacrifice himself to do so, thats how committed he was to it, and that takes immense willpower to force yourself to not fight, even when you know if you don't you will die.

No offense, but the so called "logical" progression you're talking about, is your subjective opinion about his force power. Vader in episode 6 was very much so holding back, as he wanted to him to turn, plus Vader had a massive amount of conflict within him as well, no he was not going full power on Luke, and you can clearly see it by is actions - Vader is constantly on the defensive, and he keeps trying to lure him over, with the final push being the threat to turn his sister when he doesn't want to turn - which is what makes Luke snap, fighting to protect what he loves. Furthermore, D20 SW puts Luke at then of episode 6 as a Jedi Guardian lvl 7 - that is the equivalent of a knight in terms of force power. So in terms of this system, he's at best be FR5 as thats a strong knight. FR6 represents a Jedi Master or Sith Lord, and FR7 is legendary. So if anything, considering that Vader (Anakin) is the chosen one, I'd say his force rating would be FR7 as the chosen is legendary. You give Luke far more credit than he deserves by saying he's a FR6 or FR7.

First PG 294, and 295 Core Rulebook. Influence Force power control upgrade. "the user may make an opposed discipline vs discipline check combined with the influence force power. if the user spends 1 FP and Succeeds at the check he can force the target to believe something untrue lasting 1 minute or 5 rounds" This does not care if they are a minion, this is a control upgrade that REQUIRES a Discipline vs Discipline check to work. Even if it didn't you would still require a force die roll, there is no such thing as a non-stressful mind trick as bending the mind is stressful, and the need to do so even more so.


Second, I am going by FFG's given stats of these characters Luke is FR 3 as of Hoth.... that is a fact sorry if you don't like it, not my problem, He gets stronger by Bespin so that is at least 4. Maul is 4, Obi is 6, Vader is 6, emperor is 8, and yoda is 8. Third, yes Luke is going all out at 5, I didnt say he wasnt, BUT IN 6 Luke knows Vader is his father he says "I will not fight you father" and according the novel as well as what we see on screen Luke is holding back just as much IF NOT MORE than Vader through out the battle with Vader. Vader is NOT on the defensive the whole time "you are unwise to lower your defenses", "If you will not fight you will MEET YOUR DESTINY" Vader holding back in episode 6 is NO LONGER an excuse for why he is losing to luke THE ENTIRE TIME. Failing to force him on the offensive, failing to pressure luke's defenses in any meaningful way. Because in VI Luke is holding back as well not wanting to fight his father at all, and he has the skill to get his way. If he wasn't Vader's equal Vader would be able to force him into a confrontation, Vader can't because Luke is strong enough to be able to get his own way.

From the novel things that arent contradicted by the movie (as some things in the novel are) but instead just help explain what we are seeing and what is going through peoples minds. 

"Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands now, he knew it was: he could take Vader...." "For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. he was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City---- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance, unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge" ...........

"'I will not fight you, Father," Luke stated. 'you are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now ---- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldnt fight.... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

Note that last part is happening and Luke is on the defensive but still completely in control of the fight. And at this point Luke is described as "Suddenly confused again."

Form V wookie the source for this being Fightsaber Insider 62 " Later, aboard the second Death Star, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, mirroring Vader's Form V technique."   So no it is fully intended that Luke in RotJ is supposed to be Vader's mirror in the force. He is now just as strong as his father, and they both start out holding back and even in this case Luke is the one controlling the flow of the fight. There is absolutely 0 evidence and 0 reference materials suggesting that Luke is not his father's equal as of Episode VI.

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Form V wookie " Later, aboard the second Death Star, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, mirroring Vader's Form V technique."   So no it is fully intended that Luke in RotJ is supposed to be Vader's mirror in the force. He is now just as strong as his father, and they both start out holding back and even in this case Luke is the one controlling the flow of the fight. There is absolutely 0 evidence and 0 reference materials suggesting that Luke is not his father's equal as of Episode VI.

How does matching his technique with a lightsaber equate to him also being just as powerful with the Force? That's not what the text you quoted is saying at all. I'm not saying he necessarily is/is not as powerful in the Force, only that your example doesn't support that.

Edited by HappyDaze

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

How does matching his technique with a lightsaber equate to him also being just as powerful with the Force? That's not what the text you quoted is saying at all. I'm not saying he necessarily is/is not as powerful in the Force, only that your example doesn't support that.

Sorry, I was stacking evidence. This was relating to him being his equal in the force, but also more a mirror and equal of his father in nearly every regard. In fact we can see in most of the movies that Force power and skill with a lightsaber go very much hand-in-hand. Obi and Vader are considered equals in the force and they are shown to be equals with the blade as well. Yoda and Palpatine have equal FR and they can duel each other pretty evenly. Maul gets destroyed by Obi in their final duel at a time when Maul is considered to have a FR of 4 and Obi is considered to have a FR of 6. Rey vs Kylo in their first fight it is noted by snoke that she only won because kylo was "unbalanced" by killing his father, thus affecting his ability to use the force that shouldnt affect combat ability, but it does implying further that combat ability and force power goes hand in hand in the movie verse. Equality of saber combat in the movies largely implies some form of equality with the force. It may not be direct 1 to 1 like Yoda and Palp are considered "equals" within force rating, but Yoda wins the saber duel while losing the force duel, but to match up equally or to be the opponents mirror in a regard is to imply equality in overall force strength even if talents are slightly different to be a mirror would imply mirror levels of power in the force.

Edit: an example in this game, one of the only abilities unique to Form V in this RPG is Disruptive strike which has you rolling the force die, if they were not both rolling the same number of force die then they could not be equals in this form, thus they must both be rolling the same number of force die for Luke to be mirroring his father.

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Second, I am going by FFG's given stats of these characters Luke is FR 3 as of Hoth.... that is a fact sorry if you don't like it, not my problem, He gets stronger by Bespin so that is at least 4. Maul is 4, Obi is 6, Vader is 6, emperor is 8, and yoda is 8. Third, yes Luke is going all out at 5, I didnt say he wasnt, BUT IN 6 Luke knows Vader is his father he says "I will not fight you father" and according the novel as well as what we see on screen Luke is holding back just as much IF NOT MORE than Vader through out the battle with Vader. Vader is NOT on the defensive the whole time "you are unwise to lower your defenses", "If you will not fight you will MEET YOUR DESTINY" Vader holding back in episode 6 is NO LONGER an excuse for why he is losing to luke THE ENTIRE TIME. Failing to force him on the offensive, failing to pressure luke's defenses in any meaningful way. 

The FR3 makes sense in the end of episode 5, but not in the Degobah cave. So it maybe thats the stat they've given, but it's possible it's somewhere AFTER the Degobah cave. I don't feel that is very accurate in regards to when he was in the Degobah cave, considering he had only first begun his training at that point.

Is that progression your logical progression or is that stated in the sourcebook? Because as far as I read before, you said that was the logical progression. Just because one grows stronger doesn't mean that enough to warrant complete increase in rating.

In regards to him fighting his father, I didn't say tries to kill him in episode 6, only when he threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Both are on the defensive and really don't want to fight each other, but they both have different reasons. Vader wanting to turn him over, and Luke wanting to save him. But as far as EPISODE 5 goes, yes Luke does try to kill him, to the best of his efforts. Everything that Vader says, is him trying make him give and turn to the dark side. I'm going by what the movie is showing.

31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Form V wookie the source for this being Fightsaber Insider 62 " Later, aboard the second Death Star, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, mirroring Vader's Form V technique."   So no it is fully intended that Luke in RotJ is supposed to be Vader's mirror in the force. He is now just as strong as his father, and they both start out holding back and even in this case Luke is the one controlling the flow of the fight. There is absolutely 0 evidence and 0 reference materials suggesting that Luke is not his father's equal as of Episode VI. 

That's not what the text you quoted is saying at all about his force power, in fact in doesn't say anything about their force powers in comparison, all that states is that he was able to duel him on equal footing and that he was mirroring his form V technique.

HOWEVER....

There is reference material, which I have stated on several occasions now - Luke actual Jedi level in D20 SW RP system, he's a Jedi Guardian at level 7 which is KNIGHT level - this in the end of episode 6. Vader is a Jedi Guardian 11 and a Sith Lord at level 6 and this is at the beginning of episode 4 - Jedi Guardian 11 - is Jedi Master level.

..so yes, there most certainly is reference and evidence material availabe.

Force rating in this system:
FR3-5 is KNIGHT-level force rating.
FR6  is MASTER or SITH LORD

.. D20 SW RP System in comparison to FFG Starwars means that:
Jedi level 7 is the equivalent of FR3-5
Jedi level 11+ is the equivalent of FR6+
Sith Lord 6+ is the equivalent of FR6+

 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

The FR3 makes sense in the end of episode 5, but not in the Degobah cave. So it maybe thats the stat they've given, but it's possible it's somewhere AFTER the Degobah cave. I don't feel that is very accurate in regards to when he was in the Degobah cave, considering he had only first begun his training at that point.

Is that progression your logical progression or is that stated in the sourcebook? Because as far as I read before, you said that was the logical progression. Just because one grows stronger doesn't mean that enough to warrant complete increase in rating.

In regards to him fighting his father, I didn't say tries to kill him in episode 6, only when he threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Both are on the defensive and really don't want to fight each other, but they both have different reasons. Vader wanting to turn him over, and Luke wanting to save him. But as far as EPISODE 5 goes, yes Luke does try to kill him, to the best of his efforts. Everything that Vader says, is him trying make him give and turn to the dark side. I'm going by what the movie is showing.

That's not what the text you quoted is saying at all about his force power, in fact in doesn't say anything about their force powers in comparison, all that states is that he was able to duel him on equal footing and that he was mirroring his form V technique.

HOWEVER....

There is reference material, which I have stated on several occasions now - Luke actual Jedi level in D20 SW RP system, he's a Jedi Guardian at level 7 which is KNIGHT level - this in the end of episode 6. Vader is a Jedi Guardian 11 and a Sith Lord at level 6 and this is at the beginning of episode 4 - Jedi Guardian 11 - is Jedi Master level.

 

And WEG goes off a lot of non-canon legends stuff as of now, It is irrelevant and it's system is very wonky and much stranger in how they uses the force and feels much more inaccurate especially when it comes to the narrative relative strength of characters as it is more worried about raw numbers than what the narrative is telling us. Ultimately it doesnt matter and it doesnt reflect what we actually see. 

FR 3 is the given stat as of Hoth, not bespin. The photo is of Luke on hoth, the gear he has is what he has when he is on hoth. It is Hoth Luke not cave Luke. You admit Luke gets stronger from training with yoda, thus we know he grew at least 1 force rating from hoth to bespin. Given hoth is 3, bespin MUST be 4. As of Return of the Jedi the movie spends the entire first act emphasising just how much of a bad *** Luke is now by comparison to what he was in episode 5 and how he is much stronger in the force. To me this conveys the fact that he grew 2 FR in that time. Top it off you have done nothing to talk about the quotes from the novel that show Luke being just as strong as vader, nor talking about how the novel shows vader being afraid and angry and starting to push all the while luke loses his focus and goes on the defensive and still holds his ground. Vader ISNT trying to be on the defensive in Episode VI, Vader is 100% on the offensive trying to force his son to fight to show him how strong the dark side is and he fails every single time tries to physically force Luke to fight, because Vader is not strong enough to force the conflict and Luke is strong enough to force a stale mate/ retreat. Finally I urge you to look at the Shien Expert tree and look at all the skills in it and compare it to the other trees. The only skill that is in just Shien expert (form V) is Disruptive strike which requires you to roll a number of force dice equal to your FR if Luke could not roll as many Force dice as vader he could not be Vader's equal in this form. This is also shown all over the place in star wars, to be relatively equal with a blade you have to be relatively equal with the force and that relative equality is represented by FR. FR is tiers not exact measurements. Luke and Vader are in the same Tier as of VI.


Edit: I mean to me WEG is about as accurate and fair a representation of the 2 characters as my board of star wars Stratego.... which has Luke and Vader as the second in commands and equals while yoda and the emperor are the main commanders and equals....

Edit 2: WEG is going off non-canon abilities and assumes vader got weaker from IV to VI. This is false assumption created by to many comic book writers over doing the force powers to try and keep up with all the ridiculous stuff they were doing after RotJ and during the "old republic". Remember that the old EU got insane with force powers as magic and that is what WEG is going off of. Also remember that even Lucas states Luke is stronger and that is why the emperor wants him in interviews. For the 1 piece of non-canon evidence that suggests that Luke and Vader arent equals there are 3 canon materials that says they are. I am going to go by canon, and not now non-canon legends material :).

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

And WEG goes off a lot of non-canon legends stuff as of now, It is irrelevant and it's system is very wonky and much stranger in how they uses the force and feels much more inaccurate especially when it comes to the narrative relative strength of characters as it is more worried about raw numbers than what the narrative is telling us. Ultimately it doesnt matter and it doesnt reflect what we actually see. 

This is based on the information in the core book of that system, and those are references that holds true for their representation of SW through their system. Honestly, I don't find their system be wonky at all, it's very direct and in my opinion fairly accurate. I think it most certaintly reflect what we see, because I don't think Luke is a Master in the force when he's fighting Vader episode 6, and there is absolutely nothing that suggest that he is. I don't what you say reflects what we seem in terms of force strength.

31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

FR 3 is the given stat as of Hoth, not bespin. The photo is of Luke on hoth, the gear he has is what he has when he is on hoth. It is Hoth Luke not cave luke. You admit Luke gets stronger from training with yoda, thus we know he grew at least 1 force rating from hoth to bespin. Given hoth is 3, bespin MUST be 4. As of Return of the Jedi the movie spends the entire first act emphasising just how much of a bad *** Luke is now by comparison to what he was in episode 5. To me this conveys the fact that he grew 2 FR in that time. Top it off you have done nothing to talk about the quotes from the novel that show Luke being just as strong as vader. Finally I urge you to Luke at the Shien Expert tree and look at all the skills in it and compare it to the other trees. The only skill that is in just Shien expert (form V) is Disruptive strike which requires you to roll a number of force dice equal to your FR if Luke could not roll as many Force dice as vader he could not be Vader's equal in this form. This is also shown all over the place in star wars, to be relatively equal with a blade you have to be relatively equal with the force and that relative equality is represented by FR.

I don't agree with that Luke is FR3 in the Degobah cave, Luke was in the end of episode 4 told seek Yoda in the Degobah system, it's only after the Battle of Hoth that he goes there to BEGIN his training, and he doesn't seem to be there very long before attempt at trying lift the X-wing out of the swamp - this is why don't think he's more than FR1 at that current time, because he's only almost just begun his training. Sure Obi-wan gives him an introduction to the force and let's him try to realize that he's force sensitive, but that is it. At this point, he's only just beginning to realize that he's force sensitive = FR1. Between episode 4 and 5 he doesn't receive any further training, and it's only when he goes to the Degobah cave that he begins his training - the FR3 at the Degobah cave is way off.

What I agree to is, that he's an FR2-3 at the end of episode 5 - that he over the course of episode 5 goes from FR1 to FR2-3. Then something happens between episode 5 and 6, but not necessarily an increase in force strength, I think it's much more possible that he's been learning new force powers. When episode 6 ends he's somewhere between a FR3-5, but most likely 4-5. As the D20 SW RP system puts him at Jedi Knight level it could be either FR3, FR4 or FR5.
FR1 - Jedi Initiate
FR2 - Self-taught exile; Padawan
FR3 - Young Jedi Knight
FR4 - Well-trained Jedi Knight
FR5 - Veteran Jedi Knight
FR6 - Jedi Master / Sith Lord
FR7 - Legendary
FR7+ Obviously still legendary.

In regards to Luke's lightsaber skills, they're very basic and unrefined - and he never received any training in it, it's all self-taught and copied from fighting against Vader. Unless there is actually a reference that says anything about being relatively equal in blade skills means relative equal in force strength, I'm not going to take your word for it, and I'm certainly not convinced - especially because that there is light saber skill that deals with that. I do not believe that the skill with the light saber reflects your force strength.

Consider that you can get a maximum of 2 light side points per force dice, getting 4 is more than enough to reflect what he can do. Especially also if you consider that it's not a matter of being able to generate many points, it's a matter of many upgrades you have.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

This is based on the information in the core book of that system, and those are references that holds true for their representation of SW through their system. Honestly, I don't find their system be wonky at all, it's very direct and in my opinion fairly accurate. I think it most certaintly reflect what we see, because I don't think Luke is a Master in the force when he's fighting Vader episode 6, and there is absolutely nothing that suggest that he is. I don't what you say reflects what we seem in terms of force strength.

I don't agree with that Luke is FR3 in the Degobah cave, Luke was in the end of episode 4 told seek Yoda in the Degobah system, it's only after the Battle of Hoth that he goes there to BEGIN his training, and he doesn't seem to be there very long before attempt at trying lift the X-wing out of the swamp - this is why don't think he's more than FR1 at that current time, because he's only almost just begun his training. Sure Obi-wan gives him an introduction to the force and let's him try to realize that he's force sensitive, but that is it. At this point, he's only just beginning to realize that he's force sensitive = FR1. Between episode 4 and 5 he doesn't receive any further training, and it's only when he goes to the Degobah cave that he begins his training - the FR3 at the Degobah cave is way off.

What I agree to is, that he's an FR2-3 at the end of episode 5 - that he over the course of episode 5 goes from FR1 to FR2-3. Then something happens between episode 5 and 6, but not necessarily an increase in force strength, I think it's much more possible that he's been learning new force powers. When episode 6 ends he's somewhere between a FR3-5, but most likely 4-5. As the D20 SW RP system puts him at Jedi Knight level it could be either FR3, FR4 or FR5.
FR1 - Jedi Initiate
FR2 - Self-taught exile; Padawan
FR3 - Young Jedi Knight
FR4 - Well-trained Jedi Knight
FR5 - Veteran Jedi Knight
FR6 - Jedi Master / Sith Lord
FR7 - Legendary
FR7+ Obviously still legendary.

In regards to Luke's lightsaber skills, they're very basic and unrefined - and he never received any training in it, it's all self-taught and copied from fighting against Vader. Unless there is actually a reference that says anything about being relatively equal in blade skills means relative equal in force strength, I'm not going to take your word for it, and I'm certainly not convinced - especially because that there is light saber skill that deals with that. I do not believe that the skill with the light saber reflects your force strength.

According to the FFG Allies and Adversaries book he is FR 3 at START of Episode 5 at the battle of hoth before he goes to train with yoda. Leia if Force Rating 1 in ANH and she doesnt even realize she has the force. FR 1 is not an initiate level it is someone with force sensitivity that can barely even feel the force let alone have any training in it. According to RotJ novel, RotJ movie, Lucas himself and Fightsaber Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ, with Luke having the potential to become stronger. Reconcile those FACTS and we can continue conversation. Until then you are wrong. Sorry, that is also a fact.

Edit: Fightsaber Inside 62, RotJ movie, Rotj novel all have and show Luke as equal to Vader in saber skill. In other words any canon source. You just have to watch the movies. You might want to try doing that. I mean I literally just quoted the book at you... and fight saber these arent my words they are canon quotes.


Edit 2: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5397085

Read the blirbs. just one more piece of evidence. " Darth Vader brings his full strength against the younger man." "but unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon freezing chamber of bespin's cloud city... this is a duel of EQUALS." "The young jedi had grown in the interim and if there is any TRUE advantage, it seems to have shifted to HIM"


Edit 3:" The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor. Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father." - The Official Star Wars Fact File 111

Again FR's are meant to show "tiers of power" to be an equal match as stated by Official star wars Fact file number 111. He would have to have equal FR in this system. I really can't get any more straight forward than this. The allies and adversaries book has Hoth Luke officially at FR 3... and according to the Official star war fact files Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ.... you cant get any more official or accurate or factual than that, the argument is over.

Edited by tunewalker

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5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

According to the FFG Allies and Adversaries book he is FR 3 at START of Episode 5 at the battle of hoth before he goes to train with yoda. Leia if Force Rating 1 in ANH and she doesnt even realize she has the force. FR 1 is not an initiate level it is someone with force sensitivity that can barely even feel the force let alone have any training in it. According to RotJ novel, RotJ movie, Lucas himself and Fightsaber Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ, with Luke having the potential to become stronger. Reconcile those FACTS and we can continue conversation. Until then you are wrong. Sorry, that is also a fact.

The Force Rating table that I summerized - that is by FFG. It was published inside the beta of EoTE, but as far as I can tell was removed in the final version. Nonetheless, that is the official table that was published. Hence why I referenced it.

That is not fact, that is your interpretation of it. I have a statement from George Lucas in fact saying Luke is less powerful than Darth Vader. Everyone knows it, though the main material makes Luke out to be the superior to a heavily conflicted Vader while Luke is using the Darkside. Furthermore, when considering the fact that Vader is also trying to turn him where wounding or killing Luke would defeat that purpose, that also puts a restraint on Vader that only furthers the advantage that Luke has in that particular situation. Furthermore, Palpatine was also "supercharging" Luke's dark side, because of Palpatine being a Darkside Nexus - in the presence of Luke.

..an interesting fact: When you have later versions of Luke having extreme difficulty with defeating people Vader would slaughter - that only shows exactly how superior Vader was to Luke, and it was only all the advantageous circumstances that made Luke able to defeat Vader.

5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit: Fightsaber Inside 62, RotJ movie, Rotj novel all have and show Luke as equal to Vader in saber skill. In other words any canon source. You just have to watch the movies. You might want to try doing that. I mean I literally just quoted the book at you... and fight saber these arent my words they are canon quotes.

Fact files and Fightsaber Insider 62, are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or a feel good quote for the fans of one of the characters, they're not to be treated as approved canon, especially because there are taken creative liberties. They're really nothing more than a subjective opinion. When it comes to the ROTJ Novel, interpretation and trying to provide a backstory that tries to elaborate on various things, that does not nesessarily fit with the canon presented in the movies, creates a conflict, because which one is more right!? But as the Novel is based on the authors interpretation - as you can see on the front of the books cover: based on the story of George Lucas, it means that it will be the authors interpretation. So it will be more subjective than objective and furthermore it's very likely to also have been subject to creative liberties. So I'd treat whats in the movies as the most true canon there is, and it is the primary source. Additionally, Fightsaber Insider 62 and Fact File also is subject to the circular reference fallacy, and they're also subject to incorrect interpretations their might be in 3rd party source material thats BASED on the story. So obviously as you probably can tell, I'm not just going to be accepting the directly conflicts with the main canon, and I'm most certainly going to check those sources for their references or the very least a statement that approves it to be fully correct in terms of canon, and oddly enough I could not find any.

5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

So are you refering only to the ROTJ Graphic novel or the actual ROTJ novel or both? Because I do not find those references in the novel.

5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Again FR's are meant to show "tiers of power" to be an equal match as stated by Official star wars Fact file number 111. He would have to have equal FR in this system. I really can't get any more straight forward than this. The allies and adversaries book has Hoth Luke officially at FR 3... and according to the Official star war fact files Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ.... you cant get any more official or accurate or factual than that, the argument is over.

Like I wrote above, you cannot treat File Fact as a primary representation of canon, especially when it contradict it, and furthermore it's an interpretation of the event, which also tries to be a feel good quote for the fans for Luke. The only approved canon there are, is the movies and anything thats stated to be approved to be fully correct in terms of canon. Even George Lucas have stated that Luke is inferior to Vader at that time, the only reason he can defeat him is for the reasons already stated in his statement above.

However, just to point something out to you - Lucasfilm Story Group has declared:

Quote

What is considered official canon?

Lucasfilm Ltd. identifies the six films of the original trilogy and prequel trilogy, and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series as the "immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align." The following list identifies what is now considered official canon.
This means:
The Star Wars original trilogy films—Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope, Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi.
The Star Wars prequel trilogy films—Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace, Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones, Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
The Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film.
The Star Wars Rebels television series and its supplementary source material.
Star Wars Insider fiction, beginning with "Blade Squadron" in Star Wars Insider 149.
Information found in the StarWars.com Databank.
Information previously found in the now-defunct StarWars.com Encyclopedia.

What is not a reliable resource?

 

Social media posts from Lucasfilm Story Group members or Star Wars authors are not valid independent sources of in-universe information. The only social media posts allowed as independent sources of in-universe information are from official Star Wars brand accounts, such as the official Star Wars Twitter and Facebook page. Posts from Story Group members and authors may be used in out-of-universe pages and page sections as needed, such as to document authorial intent or background development.

This basically means that when it comes to canon we can only really rely on the above listed sources (for now), which automatically removes Fact File, Fightsaber Insider 62 and any of the novels you mentioned. However, with that being said, I don't know what FFG has based Luke's FR stat on, but when it comes to the movie, there actually isn't anything that directly supports Luke being an FR3 at Hoth, if anything he'd be below, and it isn't until after the Battle at Hoth that he goes to the Degobah system to begin his training. When you then consider he had'nt received any proper training before going to that cave, there is nothing that would suggest his FR score would be more than 1. Personally I wouldn't mind an actual developer response on that, because again like I've said before, you don't need to have a high FR score to be competent, because having upgrades in force powers lets you do no more for the same amount of force points.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

The Force Rating table that I summerized - that is by FFG. It was published inside the beta of EoTE, but as far as I can tell was removed in the final version. Nonetheless, that is the official table that was published. Hence why I referenced it.

That is not fact, that is your interpretation of it. I have a statement from George Lucas in fact saying Luke is less powerful than Darth Vader. Everyone knows it, though the main material makes Luke out to be the superior to a heavily conflicted Vader while Luke is using the Darkside. Furthermore, when considering the fact that Vader is also trying to turn him where wounding or killing Luke would defeat that purpose, that also puts a restraint on Vader that only furthers the advantage that Luke has in that particular situation. Furthermore, Palpatine was also "supercharging" Luke's dark side, because of Palpatine being a Darkside Nexus - in the presence of Luke.

..an interesting fact: When you have later versions of Luke having extreme difficulty with defeating people Vader would slaughter - that only shows exactly how superior Vader was to Luke, and it was only all the advantageous circumstances that made Luke able to defeat Vader.

Fact files and Fightsaber Insider 62, are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or a feel good quote for the fans of one of the characters, they're not to be treated as approved canon, especially because there are taken creative liberties. They're really nothing more than a subjective opinion. When it comes to the ROTJ Novel, interpretation and trying to provide a backstory that tries to elaborate on various things, that does not nesessarily fit with the canon presented in the movies, creates a conflict, because which one is more right!? But as the Novel is based on the authors interpretation - as you can see on the front of the books cover: based on the story of George Lucas, it means that it will be the authors interpretation. So it will be more subjective than objective and furthermore it's very likely to also have been subject to creative liberties. So I'd treat whats in the movies as the most true canon there is, and it is the primary source. Additionally, Fightsaber Insider 62 and Fact File also is subject to the circular reference fallacy, and they're also subject to incorrect interpretations their might be in 3rd party source material thats BASED on the story. So obviously as you probably can tell, I'm not just going to be accepting the directly conflicts with the main canon, and I'm most certainly going to check those sources for their references or the very least a statement that approves it to be fully correct in terms of canon, and oddly enough I could not find any.

So are you refering only to the ROTJ Graphic novel or the actual ROTJ novel or both? Because I do not find those references in the novel.

Like I wrote above, you cannot treat File Fact as a primary representation of canon, especially when it contradict it, and furthermore it's an interpretation of the event, which also tries to be a feel good quote for the fans for Luke. The only approved canon there are, is the movies and anything thats stated to be approved to be fully correct in terms of canon. Even George Lucas have stated that Luke is inferior to Vader at that time, the only reason he can defeat him is for the reasons already stated in his statement above.

However, just to point something out to you - Lucasfilm Story Group has declared:

This basically means that when it comes to canon we can only really rely on the above listed sources (for now), which automatically removes Fact File, Fightsaber Insider 62 and any of the novels you mentioned. However, with that being said, I don't know what FFG has based Luke's FR stat on, but when it comes to the movie, there actually isn't anything that directly supports Luke being an FR3 at Hoth, if anything he'd be below, and it isn't until after the Battle at Hoth that he goes to the Degobah system to begin his training. When you then consider he had'nt received any proper training before going to that cave, there is nothing that would suggest his FR score would be more than 1. Personally I wouldn't mind an actual developer response on that, because again like I've said before, you don't need to have a high FR score to be competent, because having upgrades in force powers lets you do no more for the same amount of force points.

If you are going to ignore all version of the events of RotJ, the movie, the novel and the graphic novel all showing and saying the same thing, even with me quoting you passages from all of them for your own fan interpretation then you are an idiot that is not worth talking to. To top it all off, you are also ignoring all OFFICIAL interpretations of the events for WEG non-canon and compeletely irrelevant stats. Sorry but it is not worth arguing with someone so stubborn or stupid.


Edit: sorry for everyone who read this before the edit. I just can't stand people who ignore all evidence and all official sources without providing any of their own. There are only 2 reasons to do so, maliciousness or ignorance and stupidity. If someone found any official sources that stated I was wrong I would go with it, but every official source I find backs my understanding of what I saw on screen, and everyone arguing with me keeps wanting to use N-canon material as proof of what they say is some how more accurate then every official depiction of the events.


Edit 2: you know what I now need to laugh a little, did anyone else notice how his "evidence" was West end games character stat block only looking at the alter side of the force powers which has very little to NOTHING to do with how FR is used in this game nor does it have anything to do with how the characters are actually depicted in RotJ. Meanwhile I used, the RotJ Novel, Graphic Novel, Insider 62 and OFFICIAL fact file 111 all proving him wrong, and instead of admitting he was wrong he instead said "well none of that counts" eliminating his own evidence.... so now for evidence that Luke and Vader are equals in RotJ.
 

 Luke holds the advantage the entire fight, when he wants to attack he over comes vader's defenses, when he doesnt want to fight he successfully defends and retreats. Can't use the excuse that Vader is holding back because Luke is his son anymore because Luke is also holding back because he knows Vader is his father. So there are no more excuses left. Luke is Vader's equal in this moment, proof is the original scene.

Supporting evidence.
 

 

"soon I will have a new apprentice one far younger and more powerful" Sidious Episode III revenge of the sith.

"Their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways that makes one wonder how carefully their fates were designed by the Force, if at all." Source- Star wars Databank, which was one of the OFFICIAL sources put forth as being allowed. So using Episode II and III mirror against V and VI which the official databank specifically states their journeys mirror with the difference being and I quote 

"But he stops.

Something Anakin could never do.

He discards his lightsaber."

Showing that the difference isn't in how Anakin beat dooku vs how Luke beat Vader but instead the difference is the choice they make AFTER that comes down. Anakin beat Dooku because he was "far younger and more powerful". Luke beat Vader because he was "far younger and more powerful". Evidence is the original scene, supporting evidence includes Star Wars Databank (official source we were told to recognize) combined with Episode II and episode III also official canon source. You have 0 evidence suggesting otherwise. There you go, you want to use old canon sources... I got you beat because there are stronger more official sources stating they are equal then there are ones that state that they are not, if you want to use new canon sources again I have you beat because the new canon supports them as equals if not Luke better as well but this time there is 0 supporting evidence in current canon that suggests Vader was stronger.

Edited by tunewalker

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AA has Luke at FR 3 and he does have the basic Move power and he also has more than the basic in Enhance, Foresee,  and Sense.

He has FR 3 because that's he's strong in the Force.  It doesn't imply a lot of training but basic potential and "natural" strength in connecting to and using the Force.

Trying to perfectly match up NPC/PC stat blocks with movie characters has been attempted by fans since WEG days and has always been folly.  Games have a system and mechanical balance that the movies do not.

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9 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

This is based on the information in the core book of that system, and those are references that holds true for their representation of SW through their system. Honestly, I don't find their system be wonky at all, it's very direct and in my opinion fairly accurate. I think it most certaintly reflect what we see, because I don't think Luke is a Master in the force when he's fighting Vader episode 6, and there is absolutely nothing that suggest that he is. I don't what you say reflects what we seem in terms of force strength.

I don't agree with that Luke is FR3 in the Degobah cave, Luke was in the end of episode 4 told seek Yoda in the Degobah system, it's only after the Battle of Hoth that he goes there to BEGIN his training, and he doesn't seem to be there very long before attempt at trying lift the X-wing out of the swamp - this is why don't think he's more than FR1 at that current time, because he's only almost just begun his training. Sure Obi-wan gives him an introduction to the force and let's him try to realize that he's force sensitive, but that is it. At this point, he's only just beginning to realize that he's force sensitive = FR1. Between episode 4 and 5 he doesn't receive any further training, and it's only when he goes to the Degobah cave that he begins his training - the FR3 at the Degobah cave is way off.

What I agree to is, that he's an FR2-3 at the end of episode 5 - that he over the course of episode 5 goes from FR1 to FR2-3. Then something happens between episode 5 and 6, but not necessarily an increase in force strength, I think it's much more possible that he's been learning new force powers. When episode 6 ends he's somewhere between a FR3-5, but most likely 4-5. As the D20 SW RP system puts him at Jedi Knight level it could be either FR3, FR4 or FR5.
FR1 - Jedi Initiate
FR2 - Self-taught exile; Padawan
FR3 - Young Jedi Knight
FR4 - Well-trained Jedi Knight
FR5 - Veteran Jedi Knight
FR6 - Jedi Master / Sith Lord
FR7 - Legendary
FR7+ Obviously still legendary.

In regards to Luke's lightsaber skills, they're very basic and unrefined - and he never received any training in it, it's all self-taught and copied from fighting against Vader. Unless there is actually a reference that says anything about being relatively equal in blade skills means relative equal in force strength, I'm not going to take your word for it, and I'm certainly not convinced - especially because that there is light saber skill that deals with that. I do not believe that the skill with the light saber reflects your force strength.

Consider that you can get a maximum of 2 light side points per force dice, getting 4 is more than enough to reflect what he can do. Especially also if you consider that it's not a matter of being able to generate many points, it's a matter of many upgrades you have.

That chart is no where in any of the final books. It was in the beta. They dropped it because it is not so simple. For example someone with force rating 2 and the entire move tree can do things someone with force rating 3 and a few items in the move tree cant do.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

AA has Luke at FR 3 and he does have the basic Move power and he also has more than the basic in Enhance, Foresee,  and Sense.

He has FR 3 because that's he's strong in the Force.  It doesn't imply a lot of training but basic potential and "natural" strength in connecting to and using the Force.

Trying to perfectly match up NPC/PC stat blocks with movie characters has been attempted by fans since WEG days and has always been folly.  Games have a system and mechanical balance that the movies do not.

sorry skimmed the book didnt see the move power, but still basic move power, no upgrades means he cant lift multiple objects like we see at dagobah, must be hoth version of the character they are trying to depict. 

Edit: I am going to go back to my main point I was trying to make, Luke's failing to lift the X-wing can be interpreted in this game as not the lack of Force pip generation but instead a failure on his discipline check. In fact the X-wing slightly lifting before sinking further is evidence that he actually DID roll enough force pips to get enough power to move the X-wing, but his mind got in the way and with a despair rolled (or maybe just enough threat) in addition to his failure he caused the ship to sink further into the muck.

Also with 1 rank in magnitude.... he would require AT LEAST 3 force rating to lift 2 rocks + R2 + have a die committed to his brawn to allow the hand stand, possibly also balancing yoda, all the while not using the dark side and doing so with some form of reliability. He floats this many things multiple times and during one he loses balance when R2 wails due to the ship (added set backs broke his back) the other time he decides to use the foresee power at the same time and succeeds with that as well, before collapsing because the vision he sees. FR 3 is pretty bare minimum for the reliability we see from Luke.

Edited by tunewalker

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Regarding A&A Luke, he's got the NPC version of Move, as laid out on page 7 of said book.  This gives him the basic Move power and the hurl objects upgrade.  The text includes bits on hurling objects bigger than silhouette 0 and hurling multiple objects, but doesn't outright say that an NPC with this version of Move does or does not have what amounts to strength and magnitude upgrades, so it'd ultimately be up to the GM.

In comparison, Obi-Wan's got a nite that he can move a silhouette 2 object with a single FP, but only within short range and no indication of being capable of further ranges or being able to move multiple objects.  Yoda meanwhile has notes that he can spend a FP to do each of the following: increase range to long (2 range upgrades), increase the size of the object to silhouette 4 (4 strength upgrades), and affect up to five objects at once (4 magnitude upgrades) on top of what the Move power as noted above provides.

So it sounds to me the intent is that Luke really does just have the basics of the Move power (lifting and hurling small objects) and nothing else, which makes sense for his stats being around the Battle of Hoth.  His high Force Rating is a reflection of his being "strong in the Force" like his father, with FFG simply boosting up his Force Rating to reflect this.  I suspect that Rey would get a similar treatment if ever given a stat block, to again account for how naturally powerful she is in spite of her lack of any formal training as would Ben Solo due to his legacy as a scion of Anakin Skywalker.

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46 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Also with 1 rank in magnitude.... he would require AT LEAST 3 force rating to lift 2 rocks + R2 + have a die committed to his brawn to allow the hand stand, possibly also balancing yoda, all the while not using the dark side and doing so with some form of reliability. He floats this many things multiple times and during one he loses balance when R2 wails due to the ship (added set backs broke his back) the other time he decides to use the foresee power at the same time and succeeds with that as well, before collapsing because the vision he sees. FR 3 is pretty bare minimum for the reliability we see from Luke.

Or not... At all...

The problem with these arguments of Stats and talents and such is this system is so open to interpretation you can display the same activity in several different ways and still be correct.

 

First off your compounding scenes. There's a scene where Luke is on his head lifting 1 rock, and another where he lifts 2 Boxes and R2 while on his head and using Foresee. Moving 1 Sil 0 object isn't a huge deal, and standing on your head doesn't require the force. So it's really the second scene worth talking about.

But getting into it, the point of that scene from the GM perspective wasn't the crates, or R2, or the headstand, or Yoda. It was a Foresee Check, and a pretty crumby one at that.

 

Now, yes, one way to look at it is indeed to say that you follow the rules strictly and to the letter and account for every detail. Luke must use Move to lift two Boxes, and a Sil1 Droid, requiring either significant FR Upgrades, or both. He might also have to use Enhance to stand on his head (though to be fair normal humans can do this without the force just fine), commit to all those, and then make a Foresee check. So yeah... that takes a lot, and is compliant with the rules.

 

But... lets look less from the Rules Monkey GM, and more from the Movie Director GM.

This isn't a combat scene, so detailed tracking isn't a huge thing. In other scenes in the materials we often see collateral force activity when something "big"  is happening and the players don't need to roll for it. I doubt that Rey had to roll simply to make little pebbles lift up around her while doing something else entirely, or Vader to crush the medical unit when he screamed "no" so it really doesn't matter if Luke can pick up all those items at once in normal structured encounters. In this scene it's less about a demonstration of Lukes actual force ability and skill, and more about illustrating that Yoda is pushing Luke to, and probably beyond, his limits. So instead of being all "oh.. well I need a check where you upgrade to 3 items, and 1 Sil upgrade, and you have to do it with 1 less Die because...." I can instead just go with:

GM: Cut back to Luke, he's doing a handstand, and Yoda is there coaching him. 'Concentrate. Feel the Force flow though you." he says.

Mark: what do I need to roll?

GM: Discipline for now. Difficulty is Simple with one setback.

Mark: Three Success and a Triumph! Why can't I roll like this all the time?

GM: Luke concentrates, pushing himself to his physical and mental limits, involuntarily lifting a few crates into the air and then R2. "Good... Calm" Yoda says, continuing "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The Future, the past, old friends, long gone." OK, roll your Force Dice, and a Discipline check, Hard difficulty with three setback. You don't have Foresee, but Yoda's kind of tutoring you on how it's supposed to work. Lets see how you do.

Mark: Well I got 1 White pip, and two success... and 2 threat.

GM: You see a city in the clouds. Han and Leia are there. They are in pain... lots of pain... intentional inflicted pain. You shout their names, breaking your concentration, and you, the crates, and R2 all come tumbling down.

And that's it. The scene still plays out the same, but the required skills, upgrades and FRs are dramatically lower. And... it's still 100% in line with the rules.

 

On top of that you're claiming a need for "reliability" which to me is always a red flag on stuff like this. A character need only do something "reliably" that he's seen doing, under duress, and succeeding at, multiple times, in multiple scenes. The rest of the time... not so much. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Or not... At all...

The problem with these arguments of Stats and talents and such is this system is so open to interpretation you can display the same activity in several different ways and still be correct.

 

First off your compounding scenes. There's a scene where Luke is on his head lifting 1 rock, and another where he lifts 2 Boxes and R2 while on his head and using Foresee. Moving 1 Sil 0 object isn't a huge deal, and standing on your head doesn't require the force. So it's really the second scene worth talking about.

But getting into it, the point of that scene from the GM perspective wasn't the crates, or R2, or the headstand, or Yoda. It was a Foresee Check, and a pretty crumby one at that.

 

Now, yes, one way to look at it is indeed to say that you follow the rules strictly and to the letter and account for every detail. Luke must use Move to lift two Boxes, and a Sil1 Droid, requiring either significant FR Upgrades, or both. He might also have to use Enhance to stand on his head (though to be fair normal humans can do this without the force just fine), commit to all those, and then make a Foresee check. So yeah... that takes a lot, and is compliant with the rules.

 

But... lets look less from the Rules Monkey GM, and more from the Movie Director GM.

This isn't a combat scene, so detailed tracking isn't a huge thing. In other scenes in the materials we often see collateral force activity when something "big"  is happening and the players don't need to roll for it. I doubt that Rey had to roll simply to make little pebbles lift up around her while doing something else entirely, or Vader to crush the medical unit when he screamed "no" so it really doesn't matter if Luke can pick up all those items at once in normal structured encounters. In this scene it's less about a demonstration of Lukes actual force ability and skill, and more about illustrating that Yoda is pushing Luke to, and probably beyond, his limits. So instead of being all "oh.. well I need a check where you upgrade to 3 items, and 1 Sil upgrade, and you have to do it with 1 less Die because...." I can instead just go with:

GM: Cut back to Luke, he's doing a handstand, and Yoda is there coaching him. 'Concentrate. Feel the Force flow though you." he says.

Mark: what do I need to roll?

GM: Discipline for now. Difficulty is Simple with one setback.

Mark: Three Success and a Triumph! Why can't I roll like this all the time?

GM: Luke concentrates, pushing himself to his physical and mental limits, involuntarily lifting a few crates into the air and then R2. "Good... Calm" Yoda says, continuing "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The Future, the past, old friends, long gone." OK, roll your Force Dice, and a Discipline check, Hard difficulty with three setback. You don't have Foresee, but Yoda's kind of tutoring you on how it's supposed to work. Lets see how you do.

Mark: Well I got 1 White pip, and two success... and 2 threat.

GM: You see a city in the clouds. Han and Leia are there. They are in pain... lots of pain... intentional inflicted pain. You shout their names, breaking your concentration, and you, the crates, and R2 all come tumbling down.

And that's it. The scene still plays out the same, but the required skills, upgrades and FRs are dramatically lower. And... it's still 100% in line with the rules.

 

On top of that you're claiming a need for "reliability" which to me is always a red flag on stuff like this. A character need only do something "reliably" that he's seen doing, under duress, and succeeding at, multiple times, in multiple scenes. The rest of the time... not so much. 

While this can be true, I am specifically responding to the idea that there is "0 evidence that Luke has force rating higher then 2 or 3 as NOTHING he does in the movie requires this" this is inherently false from a "rules lawyer" gm perspective. Also remember that when he was doing the handstand with the 1 rock he is also actually only using 1 hand, AND he is still balancing Yoda on one foot as well, it is possible he is keeping yoda up there with TK at the same time. To do this from a rules lawyer perspective he would still need to likely commit the 1 die and there is always the possibility he rolls Dark which he can't use without being scolded by Yoda. Since he does this in more than one scene (hand stand plus at least 1 rock float, one with 1 hand stand and support yoda, the other with 2 hand stand more stuff float and vision) that is enough to establish "reliability" in a movie setting and in both scenes he starts out good without being scolded by yoda implying that he generates enough LIGHT FP with enough reliability with his remaining force rating to not have to dip into the dark side and get scolded all the while likely having his FR reduced by at least 1 due to force dice commitment as the hand stand stuff is specifically part of his FORCE training, if he didnt need the force to do it, wouldnt make much sense for him to do it that way instead of just sitting cross legged in the swamp. As yoda says "a jedi's strength flows from the force".

Edited by tunewalker

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11 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

While this can be true, I am specifically responding to the idea that there is "0 evidence that Luke has force rating higher then 2 or 3 as NOTHING he does in the movie requires this" this is inherently false from a "rules lawyer" gm perspective. Also remember that when he was doing the handstand with the 1 rock he is also actually only using 1 hand, AND he is still balancing Yoda on one foot as well, it is possible he is keeping yoda up there with TK at the same time. To do this he would still need the 1 die commit and there is always the possibility he rolls Dark which he can't use without being scolded by Yoda. Since he does this in more than one scene (hand stand plus at least 1 rock float, one with 1 hand stand and support yoda, the other with 2 hand stand more stuff float and vision) that is enough to establish "reliability" in a movie setting.

And I'm saying your examples aren't proof of anything.

The variable nature of the system and the narrative nature of those scenes only say that, under one interpretation of them, would he require an FR higher than 2. 

And why not use a black pip? Again it's all about GM interpretation. How bad is the use of a black pip? Is it worth a tongue lashing? A slap on the wrist? Simple counseling? Nothing unless he makes a habit of it?

And Reliability is equally vague. You can't lock down what rolls are required for certain. You can't lock down difficulties. Or how well the player rolled, or what the GM interpreted as happening as a result.

One of the good (and bad) things about a tabletop game and the rules of this system is there isn't much by way of absolutes. You can do a lot with a little, or a little with a lot. It's all up to the GM and groups about what they find fun.

 

You might as well make the argument that the sky is orange...

It's not...

Except when it is.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

And I'm saying your examples aren't proof of anything.

The variable nature of the system and the narrative nature of those scenes only say that, under one interpretation of them, would he require an FR higher than 2. 

And why not use a black pip? Again it's all about GM interpretation. How bad is the use of a black pip? Is it worth a tongue lashing? A slap on the wrist? Simple counseling? Nothing unless he makes a habit of it?

And Reliability is equally vague. You can't lock down what rolls are required for certain. You can't lock down difficulties. Or how well the player rolled, or what the GM interpreted as happening as a result.

One of the good (and bad) things about a tabletop game and the rules of this system is there isn't much by way of absolutes. You can do a lot with a little, or a little with a lot. It's all up to the GM and groups about what they find fun.

 

You might as well make the argument that the sky is orange...

It's not...

Except when it is.

Note I am not saying it is "Proof" I am saying it is Evidence as opposed to there being no evidence. Proof and evidence are not one and the same. He claimed no evidence to support the given book stats, I said there was and used these things as pieces of evidence. Proof is not the burden I was given nor the burden I was going for, simply showing evidence that the already known stats in AA are in-fact reasonable for what Luke is shown doing pre and at Dagobah. Which means for the burden I was given I simply needed to give 1 interpretation of a scene or pair of scenes given the Rules lawyer perspective to show how there IS evidence to SUGGEST that his stat block isn't over done. In addition, remember that this thread in particular is asking about a mechanical change to a given system, meaning doing things mechanically is what I am arguing not doing things narratively. You can do anything you want narratively, but that is not evidence that the characters stats are over blown from a mechanical stand point. 

Edit: for an example of course it would be like claiming "there is no evidence that the sky is orange' and then I take a picture of the sky as the sun is setting when it is orange and go BOOM evidence. This isn't proof but is sure as **** is evidence. (This could also work for the sky is blue, purple, grey or black)

Edited by tunewalker

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3 hours ago, tunewalker said:

If you are going to ignore all version of the events of RotJ, the movie, the novel and the graphic novel all showing and saying the same thing, even with me quoting you passages from all of them for your own fan interpretation then you are an idiot that is not worth talking to. To top it all off, you are also ignoring all OFFICIAL interpretations of the events for WEG non-canon and compeletely irrelevant stats. Sorry but it is not worth arguing with someone so stubborn or stupid.

I'm not ignoring the movies - NO WHERE did I state that, but I am telling you, that what you're stating as evidence from the the movies, is YOUR INTERPRETATION of those scense WITH YOUR ASSUMPTION about Luke and Vader. I'm also telling you that what you use as your supporting evidence from Filefact, Fightsaber and the novels, you're treating as ACTUAL CANON when it is NOT.  What I also tried to point out, which you've completely dismissed, is the fact that ALL of the authors for Filefact, Fightsaber, Novels (both graphic and written) and other 3rd party material INCLUDE THE AUTHORS INTERPRETATION as well ANY potential CREATIVE LIBERTIES TAKEN - the last parts are exactly why they cannot be treated as fact nor evidence despite how much you would want it to, because it fits with your interpretation of the movie. The only "OFFICIAL" about those sources is that they're licensed, but being licensed doesn't mean anything with regards to validity. I treat all of the 6 movies as original unchangeable canon.

4 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit: sorry for everyone who read this before the edit. I just can't stand people who ignore all evidence and all official sources without providing any of their own. There are only 2 reasons to do so, maliciousness or ignorance and stupidity. If someone found any official sources that stated I was wrong I would go with it, but every official source I find backs my understanding of what I saw on screen, and everyone arguing with me keeps wanting to use N-canon material as proof of what they say is some how more accurate then every official depiction of the events.

I did provide other evidence to support what I said, which you completely dismissed. I also provided you with evidence that even George Lucas says that Luke was only perceived as being stronger, but in reality it was the circumstances of the situation gave him that perceived superiority - as mentioned that Vader was seriously conflicted while also keep trying to turn Luke, where wounding or killing would defeat the purpose, plus it was his ticket out of being ruled by the emperor. You completely disregarded that piece of evidence, which comes straight from the source of the creator, no interpretation or anything what so ever involved. So perhaps you should stop dismissing what I'm saying in favor of interpretation, because fact is that GL has stated that Vader is much stronger than Luke. Which by the way is also supported by the fact that Luke later has many difficulties dealing with adversaries, whom Vader outright crushes. The D20 SW RP System, isn't N-Canon or the very least, I haven't seen a single source that claims this, if anything it would fall into the now legends, just as FFG's SW currently neither is canon nor legends by official sources, but given the fact that it's Star Wars to the core, it at least deserves being recognized as at least legends.

4 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit 2: you know what I now need to laugh a little, did anyone else notice how his "evidence" was West end games character stat block only looking at the alter side of the force powers which has very little to NOTHING to do with how FR is used in this game nor does it have anything to do with how the characters are actually depicted in RotJ. Meanwhile I used, the RotJ Novel, Graphic Novel, Insider 62 and OFFICIAL fact file 111 all proving him wrong, and instead of admitting he was wrong he instead said "well none of that counts" eliminating his own evidence.... so now for evidence that Luke and Vader are equals in RotJ.

I have no idea how you came think that the WEG D20 SW RP System Statblock for Luke and Vader I provided, that I was looking at the alter side of the force powers - which by the way makes ZERO sense, as their statblocks doesn't have anything to with the force powers that rely on the alter feat. I mentioned those references, only for the sake for a COMPARATIVE REFERENCE, as those both are two official SW RP systems. Furthermore, I recall you said that FFG didn't provide a statblock for Luke at the end of episode 6, but what you provided was, again YOUR INTERPRETATION of the so called logical progression. WEG D20 SW RP System, does not reflect Luke to be of equal strength to Vader in the end of episode 6, far from it - which is supported by George Lucas' statement, both of which completely CONTRADICT YOUR INTERPRETATION of Luke's power at that point. Even though they both handle system-wise handle the force and the use of it differently, WEG still presents a somewhat accurate representation of Luke's power and skill.

I also need to point out, that I did NOT admit to anything by saying what Lucasfilm Story Group considers reliable sources, nor did I say "none of that counts". Don't say things I didn't say.

4 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Luke holds the advantage the entire fight, when he wants to attack he over comes vader's defenses, when he doesnt want to fight he successfully defends and retreats. Can't use the excuse that Vader is holding back because Luke is his son anymore because Luke is also holding back because he knows Vader is his father. So there are no more excuses left. Luke is Vader's equal in this moment, proof is the original scene.

As I already presented to you, which you completely dismissed, so I'm going to quote as that still stands.

7 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That is not fact, that is your interpretation of it. I have a statement from George Lucas in fact saying Luke is less powerful than Darth Vader. Everyone knows it, though the main material makes Luke out to be the superior to a heavily conflicted Vader while Luke is using the Darkside. Furthermore, when considering the fact that Vader is also trying to turn him where wounding or killing Luke would defeat that purpose, that also puts a restraint on Vader that only furthers the advantage that Luke has in that particular situation. Furthermore, Palpatine was also "supercharging" Luke's dark side, because of Palpatine being a Darkside Nexus - in the presence of Luke.

Furthermore, it's not an excuse, Vader is holding back and so is Luke, but Luke is also being influenced by Palpatine, both by his very presence, by his coercion attempts and quite possible also use force use in regards to influence, so there are moments where he does want to destroy Vader, but realizes whats going on and backs down.

4 hours ago, tunewalker said:

"Their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways that makes one wonder how carefully their fates were designed by the Force, if at all." Source- Star wars Databank, which was one of the OFFICIAL sources put forth as being allowed.

That their journeys are mirrored doesn't equate to them being mirrored equals, that is YOU INTERPRETATING IT AS SUCH!
Please do notice that NOTHING in that statement indicates that they equals in terms of skill, strength and power - ONLY that their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways. Secondly, being mirrored could also reflect their journeys are similar but opposites.

5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

there are stronger more official sources stating they are equal then there are ones that state that they are not,

Those sources doesn't state anything about Luke being an equal to Vader in regards to skill, strength and power. This is you twisting the information because of trying to make it fit your interpretation.

..for the record, I'm not trying to win a discussion here, this is a matter of interpretation - However by George Lucas' statement, there is all the evidence needed, Luke wasn't stronger than Vader in episode 6, not even close to, where none you present can ever change his statement, as that is your interpretation. Furthermore, just take notice of how much exactly you've skewed this statement "Their journeys mirror each other" to them being they're equals, because that is not what the statement says nor implies.  Perhaps you should take a step back re-evaluate exactly how much YOUR INTERPRETATION INTERFERES with your objectivity.

You're entitled to your interpretation, but according to what George Lucas states about Luke and Vader in episode 6, then I'm sorry to say, but that means your interpretation isn't correct, no matter how you want it to be so - but thank  you for the effort in trying to give light to your interpretation.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

 

I did provide other evidence to support what I said, which you completely dismissed. I also provided you with evidence that even George Lucas says that Luke was only perceived as being stronger, but in reality it was the circumstances of the situation gave him that perceived superiority - as mentioned that Vader was seriously conflicted while also keep trying to turn Luke, where wounding or killing would defeat the purpose, plus it was his ticket out of being ruled by the emperor. You completely disregarded that piece of evidence, which comes straight from the source of the creator, no interpretation or anything what so ever involved. So perhaps you should stop dismissing what I'm saying in favor of interpretation, because fact is that GL has stated that Vader is much stronger than Luke. Which by the way is also supported by the fact that Luke later has many difficulties dealing with adversaries, whom Vader outright crushes. The D20 SW RP System, isn't N-Canon or the very least, I haven't seen a single source that claims this, if anything it would fall into the now legends, just as FFG's SW currently neither is canon nor legends by official sources, but given the fact that it's Star Wars to the core, it at least deserves being recognized as at least legends.

 

Please give the EXACT quote that has Lucas saying what you are claiming. The only quote I can find of Lucas is this one:

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side."

Also Lucas NEVER refered to EU stuff because he didnt care about it. ALSO ALSO everything you are talking about "later" with Luke doesnt exist.


Also you admit to these things being licensed. .. who ever hold the license make the canon, but of course your going to ignore these facts to and provide less evidence. Because you like to claim there is all this evidence without actually providing any of it, and every time you move the goal posts like any flat earther or anti-vaxxer moron would I provide you with the evidence you ask for and then you move the goal post again. If your that dumb you are not worth talking to.


Edit: for reference I am checking this page as of right now 
https://boards.theforce.net/threads/lucas-quotes-and-interviews-about-the-starwars-saga.15943856/ when I find something I will post it.

Edit 2: Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and your wrong again, but wait there is more.

Edited by tunewalker

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silhouette

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

That chart is no where in any of the final books. It was in the beta. They dropped it because it is not so simple. For example someone with force rating 2 and the entire move tree can do things someone with force rating 3 and a few items in the move tree cant do.

Yeah, I know they removed it, jus not for what reasons, my thought was that it's to try and keep it more vague thus more subjective as a result. Though, that list I do think gives an idea of the power scale they intended.

However, I do think it also in some regard indicates that the force rating system and power system has a flaw, namely that you can be fairly weak in the force but given enough time (xp), your force powers could be improved to a point that could make the character seem a lot stronger in the force even when indeed the character is not.

Consider it, there are in total 4 strength upgrades on move power, if I remember correctly, and there is no limit to how many times you can activate the upgrades, and for each time you use activate it, you activate all upgrades of that type, for a single force point.
So say if someone with an FR of 2, would only need 2 force points and it could activate it and move an object up to silhouette 4 - if memory servers me correctly, then that would be something like YT1300 Freighter or an AT-AT Walker - for a mere 2 force points. Had it been an FR3 with just one magnitude upgrade then just rolling 3 could move 3 AT-AT Walkers OR move a capital class. In my opinion that reflects a flaw in the system, which doesn't really represent the lore accurately. Obviously, one can be skilled in the force, but skill and power does not equate one being able to do more than what one strength in force would normally allow.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

 

That their journeys are mirrored doesn't equate to them being mirrored equals, that is YOU INTERPRETATING IT AS SUCH!
Please do notice that NOTHING in that statement indicates that they equals in terms of skill, strength and power - ONLY that their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways. Secondly, being mirrored could also reflect their journeys are similar but opposites.

 

I do not think you are understanding the implication of their JOURNEYS being Mirrored. So let me break it down for you just a little bit so you can catch up. Dooku is to Anakin as Vader is to Luke. Dooku kicks the crap out of Anakin in Episode II and Anakin loses an Arm. Vader kicks the Crap out of Luke in Episode 5 and Luke loses an arm. In episode III palpatine plots to replace Dooku with Anakin who is 'far younger and more powerful' and Anakin defeats dooku cutting his arms off and then takes it 1 step to far and kills dooku. In episode VI Palpatine plots to replace Vader with Luke who is "far younger and more powerful' and Luke defeats Vader cutting his arm off and unlike his father doesnt take it a step to far. This is the mirror this is what happens. It is not mirrored because Luke and Vader are the same it is mirrored because Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku.
The mirror implies that Vader is the Dooku of Luke's story, and just like with Dooku that would require Luke to surpass his father. It makes 0 sense for Palpatine to want a weaker apprentice. I mean just answer that question dont dodge it.... Why would Palpatine want a weaker apprentice, what evidence do you have to support Palpatine has always wanted a weak apprentice.

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Please give the EXACT quote that has Lucas saying what you are claiming. The only quote I can find of Lucas is this one:

Not a problem!
The exact quotes:
Statementes:
GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.
BILL MOYERS: Did you feel pow …
GEORGE LUCAS: And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he’s the — he’s the ultimate father who is all powerful.

Here is the source: https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/ 

35 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I do not think you are understanding the implication of their JOURNEYS being Mirrored. So let me break it down for you just a little bit so you can catch up. Dooku is to Anakin as Vader is to Luke. Dooku kicks the crap out of Anakin in Episode II and Anakin loses an Arm. Vader kicks the Crap out of Luke in Episode 5 and Luke loses an arm. In episode III palpatine plots to replace Dooku with Anakin who is 'far younger and more powerful' and Anakin defeats dooku cutting his arms off and then takes it 1 step to far and kills dooku. In episode VI Palpatine plots to replace Vader with Luke who is "far younger and more powerful' and Luke defeats Vader cutting his arm off and unlike his father doesnt take it a step to far. This is the mirror this is what happens. It is not mirrored because Luke and Vader are the same it is mirrored because Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku. 

Oh I get it just well, but you haven't realized that it's not about them being stronger in the current time that he wants to turn them and replace them with his current apprentice, but because of the what their potential is.
Anakin's potential is greater than Dooku's - thats why he wants to replace Dooku with Anakin.
Luke's potential is greater then Vader's - which is why he wants to replace Vader with him, and the reason he has more potential is due to the fact that he's more machine now and thus has lost a lot of his potential, because do keep in mind, that Anakin was the chosen one, not Luke. So I get it alright.

However there is a very, very important key aspect here that you are not taking into account - Palpatine is a Dark Side Nexus who's present when both Dooku and Vader are defeated, this means his presence is empowering both Anakin when he defeats Dooku, and when Luke defeats Vader, making both temporarily much stronger with the dark side of the force, which is the side they're pulling from to empower them. Do you really think that Palpatine is only present because he wants to enjoy the show, no he wants to influence them and empower them so that they can defeat Dooku and Vader, so they can take their place instead, because he wants to use the power they can achieve.

...but seriously, I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the more personal attacks.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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