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InfinityIncarnate

Force Power Manifestation System - An universal force point generation system.

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16 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

From my read, his proposed change does two things:

One, it gets rid of the Force dice entirely, due to being too "unreliable" (i.e. can't always get the result he wants)

Two, it effectively doubles the amount of Force points that a PC would have available to use without necessarily having to suffer Conflict than they'd get just from rolling Force dice, which ultimately makes using Force powers far more reliable as there's only a very slim chance that any reasonably competent Force user (Willpower 3, Discipline 1) isn't going to be able to succeed at most low-end uses of the Force.

As KungFuFerret said, there's already the chance of "failure" in the current system, as you can roll only black pips (or only white pips if you're a dark sider) and thus choose not to spend resources (destiny point/strain) to convert them into Force points.  The power does "activate," but nothing actually happens (beyond the PC perhaps looking a bit silly waving their hand around like they think they're a some kind of Jedi).

With just using the Genesys magic system, one thing that's quite likely tripping up a number of folks is that you largely have to sacrifice having several of the Force power/effects as not all them translate very well over to Genesys, at least not without introducing a whole slew of new power types to the point one begins to wonder why they switched over in the first place.  And even just saying, "well, if there's no direct correlation then it's a Utility effect" can be problematic, as I found when writing up a number of prestablished spells for use with Chris Witt's Harry Potter Genesys theme, and can easily lead to GMs having to make a plethora of on-the-fly determinations of how to address various Force effects without stepping into the realm of "the Force is no different than high-fantasy magic and can do whatever the story needs!" syndrome that plagued the majority of the Expanded Universe material from the 90's and early aughts.

Not to mention, that many uses of the Force, require a skill check to go along with the Force roll, so that's a second layer in which the power could fail.  Though I think Bob might be misreading the OP's goal?  He thinks the point of the system was to introduce failure, but you are saying the system is because it's too unreliable, which I read as "I fail more often than I like." ?    I didn't read the actual rules presented, because crunch is the least interesting part of any game to me, and the minimal rules, "handle it as you go" approach that the FFG system embraces, is right up my ally as far as a GM, so I frankly just don't care about complicating it that much.   

I don't want/need it complicated, it's hard enough keeping my players on story as it is, with their analytical, possibly autistic brains, diving down every number hole they find to calculate things, and I'm just asking them to make a skill check.  Adding more rules is contrary to the fun of the system in my opinion,a nd should be avoided.

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4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

But you can already fail based on rolling a blank die, or dark/light pips that you refuse to use.  The action you wanted to take, fails to happen.  So I don't see how this is any different from the baseline rules.

I think the OP is upset that you can always accomplish something, even if it's less powerful than you wanted (due to few pips rolled) and even if you just might have to draw on the other side of the Force than you'd like. They want a system where you can utterly fail to draw upon the Force at all. I don't really want such a system, but the Genesys magic system is better playtested than the home-brew option they introduced in the original post. I'm not advocating anything except that they don't attempt to reinvent the wheel.

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And, yes, it's possible I'm misinterpreting the OP's goal. I'm not going to read a 20-page house rule. I'm just offering some advice to the OP that others have trodden this path already, so there's little need to do so once more.

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13 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

I think the OP is upset that you can always accomplish something, even if it's less powerful than you wanted (due to few pips rolled) and even if you just might have to draw on the other side of the Force than you'd like. They want a system where you can utterly fail to draw upon the Force at all. I don't really want such a system, but the Genesys magic system is better playtested than the home-brew option they introduced in the original post. I'm not advocating anything except that they don't attempt to reinvent the wheel.

Well, you can't flip a Destiny point if all of them are flipped already. In such a case,  the option to use pips of the opposite type is not available. 

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52 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

And, yes, it's possible I'm misinterpreting the OP's goal. I'm not going to read a 20-page house rule.

Oh I'm right there with you on that one.   

 

57 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

I think the OP is upset that you can always accomplish something, even if it's less powerful than you wanted (due to few pips rolled) and even if you just might have to draw on the other side of the Force than you'd like. They want a system where you can utterly fail to draw upon the Force at all. I don't really want such a system, but the Genesys magic system is better playtested than the home-brew option they introduced in the original post. I'm not advocating anything except that they don't attempt to reinvent the wheel.

That's just it though, I'm not sure how you are getting a "100% success of some kind when using the Force " when reading the rules.   My players failed all the time when using the Force.  For multiple reasons, which is where my confusion is coming from.  If you roll a Force die, and it comes up blank, you don't get a "weaker version " of what you are trying to do, you don't get any result at all.  Though the pedantics will say it still activated, but nothing actually of consequence happened.  You didn't pull your saber to you, you didn't float the blaster from that annoying smuggler who was getting frisky with your daughter, out of his hand.  Nothing happens.

And even if the pips are with you, sometimes you have to do a skill check to accomplish what you are trying to do (like using that power against a PC, Rival/Nemesis, or as an attack), which can fail as well.

So I'm just genuinely confused where you are getting the interpretation that the system lets it work all the time.  Because I just don't see that.

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17 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

How very interesting, when the FaD says something different about what discipline can be used for: "Often, when summoning the Force in order to throw objects at people, influence the mental state of others, or otherwise affect individuals, a character may also need to succeed on a Discipline check.".

You say that wisdom didn't actually help him use the force, wisdom also encompasses being experienced and having a deep understanding of subject, and in this case it's the force. I'd say being experienced in using the force most certainly helped him use the force, because he knew how to use his will to properly control his mental faculties so that he could harness and control the force. I didn't say that a force users ability to tap into the force connected to his well-being or wisdom - What I said was "When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.".

Yoda, says and implies a lot of things when it comes to using the force that supports that one definitely needs knowledge about the force and to be able to control one's mental faculties in order to use the force.
One must have a calm and clear mind..
One must feel the force around one.
One must believe in oneself..
One must have faith in the force..
One must use ones feelings..
One must learn control..

With your logic, Luke could just use the force without any kind of training, without developing his mental faculties and his discipline, without being taught the ways of the force - which is certainly not how it happens.
With what you're saying, one could be utterly braindamaged but still use the force if he or she is strong enough in it, which I do not agree with.

There most certainly is a connection between the force user's knowledge and mental faculties with regards to using the force, it's not just about the user strength of the force.
Is there an actual stance on this matter, an official statement? Because what you say seems a lot like personal opinion.

And yet, it is actually very true. You don't need a lot of brains to use the Force (See below). Players have to succeed a Discipline check because it's an opposed roll, and Discipline makes the most sense, given that you're using your willpower, rather than physical strength to defeat your opponent. In regards to Yoda, he tells Luke to have a calm mind because being controlled by his emotions leads to the Dark Side. You need a calm mind in order to avoid that temptation and remain in the light. As he tells Luke when asked how he would know the good side from the bad, Yoda says, "You will know; when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for Knowledge and Defense; never for attack." So, remaining calm is not necessary to tap into and use the Force. It is necessary to avoid using the Dark Side. And this is already covered by the Light Side and Dark Side pips on the Force dice. 

17 hours ago, Daeglan said:

and here is the problem. Stop assuming the roll requires a roll other than force dice. I want to move my lightsaber to my hand. no roll needed. will succeed every time. nothing to worry about.  And that is an issue.

 

17 hours ago, Daeglan said:

by your logic Luke would have had no problem pulling his x-wing out of the swamp.  where as in reality he probably didn't roll enough pips on his force dice roll. he was probably at 2 force dice at the point with a strength upgrade and a magnitude upgrade. Which means he needed to roll 4 lightside pips.

 

17 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm not!
Seems you're not getting what this system is about, sigh.
I keep trying to tell you, this system is for a different way of handling what the force dice does, a way that is more accurate and centric to character's abilities, skills, force rating and actual circumstances from it's current situation.

Far from it. By my logic, he would need knowlegde about the force, he'd need to train his mental faculties, discipline, develop his connection to the force and improve the strength of it, but most certainly also improve his move power - to be able to that. Because, despite if it's my system or the force dice, getting enough points is still limited by force rating. Furthermore, both systems can only generate 4 force points at force rating 2.
With my system, he'd need the same amount of successes in surplus - so in that regard there would be no difference between the two systems, he'd have just as much trouble of trying to lift that out of the swamp as he would with the force dice, the difference is that my system could accurately reflect why, the force dice cannot. It can reflect it through the various circumstancial dices added, which can be others than the ones currently mentioned, some of those that would be fitting here would be his lack of faith in the force, lack of self-confidence, him still being in the early phases of training (ie. him learning), etc.

And it's the wrong way to go about it. That's the thing you're not getting. What you're forgetting is that there are non-sentient animals who are capable of using the Force. For example, Jackobeasts can use Move to push potential predators away from them. Jubba Birds could use Influence in the form of their song, which could calm those around it. The Hssiss, or Dark Side Dragon, could paralyze their victim with Fear, and their bite injected a Dark Side venom. They could also use the Force to conceal themselves and influence Force users around them. The Pelko bug was a Force-sensitive insect that used the Force to track its targets, typically Force users, and to determine if said target was suitable prey. 

Using the Force does not require a high wisdom, or high intelligence. It does not even require sentience. All it requires is strength in the Force. It may require practice to learn a specific power, but it doesn't require any high degree of wisdom or intellect. What requires wisdom is knowing when to use it, and in what way you should do so, when the time comes, in order to avoid falling to the Dark Side.

17 hours ago, Daeglan said:

And this is why your idea sucks. It adds a whole bunch of extra rolls for stuff that before was just roll to see what pips you got with a temptation to use those darkside pips

 

17 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

You do normally roll to generate the points! The only thing you don't do with influence against minions, is do an opposed roll, because they don't get to resist when they're just minions.
With my system roll with to generate the points, just like you normally would do with the force dice, so where is it different?

Because the behind idea the system isn't just about "just to see what points can get", it's to more accurately reflect how the circumstance of the situation affects the user's capabilities when attempting to use the force. In case you haven't actually noticed, with my system, it's not just that you try without potential consequenses, there are ACTUAL potential consequences for trying - like suffering strain and conflict, even it doesn't result in a success. And that you can actually succeed, but suffering strain in the proces. My system reflects how the circumstances of situation AFFECTS the user when attempting to use the force!

It actually doesn't add more rolls, it just adds more dices to the roll!

...and I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the bashing, thank you!

That's because the "situation" has no relevance or impact on a person's ability to tap into and use the Force. That is what everyone is trying to get through that skull of yours. 

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28 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

That's just it though, I'm not sure how you are getting a "100% success of some kind when using the Force " when reading the rules.   My players failed all the time when using the Force.  For multiple reasons, which is where my confusion is coming from.  If you roll a Force die, and it comes up blank, you don't get a "weaker version " of what you are trying to do, you don't get any result at all.  Though the pedantics will say it still activated, but nothing actually of consequence happened.  You didn't pull your saber to you, you didn't float the blaster from that annoying smuggler who was getting frisky with your daughter, out of his hand.  Nothing happens.

And even if the pips are with you, sometimes you have to do a skill check to accomplish what you are trying to do (like using that power against a PC, Rival/Nemesis, or as an attack), which can fail as well.

So I'm just genuinely confused where you are getting the interpretation that the system lets it work all the time.  Because I just don't see that.

There are no blank faces on the Force die, so you'll always get at least one pip, either dark or light. There are certainly powers that require a skill check in conjunction with a Force die roll, but for most basic powers, the power can always activate so long as there is a DP remaining to flip and you have strain to spend. I think the OP wants even those basic uses to have a (greater) chance of failure than just having the player say, "Oh, bummer. All dark side. I won't draw on those."

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3 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

There are no blank faces on the Force die, so you'll always get at least one pip, either dark or light. There are certainly powers that require a skill check in conjunction with a Force die roll, but for most basic powers, the power can always activate so long as there is a DP remaining to flip and you have strain to spend. I think the OP wants even those basic uses to have a (greater) chance of failure than just having the player say, "Oh, bummer. All dark side. I won't draw on those."

The answer to that is to simply require Discipline checks at whatever difficulty. “Problem” solved. However, in my not-so-humble opinion, even that is over complicating things. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

From my read, his proposed change does two things:

One, it gets rid of the Force dice entirely, due to being too "unreliable" (i.e. can't always get the result he wants)

Two, it effectively doubles the amount of Force points that a PC would have available to use without necessarily having to suffer Conflict than they'd get just from rolling Force dice, which ultimately makes using Force powers far more reliable as there's only a very slim chance that any reasonably competent Force user (Willpower 3, Discipline 1) isn't going to be able to succeed at most low-end uses of the Force.

Firstly, it's correct that it completely REPLACES the force dice, HOWEVER, not because it's too unreliable, but because of what it is, it can't do what I want to accomplish. I wanted to try and integrate the force dice system WITH the already existing dice pool system, and base it more on the user's abilities, skills force rating and any circumstances in the user's current situation, for a good number of reasons. Also to point out here, the user won't always get what it wants, even when it can choose what to manifest, because the circumstancial dices are intended to affect the outcome, either to change the intended force point to the OPPOSITE force point, or the very least cause strain in the user, or to make the potentially fail altogether.

Secondly, as I've explained before, including in the OP, the 2x force rating IS NOT that the user has double force rating, but that IT CAPS the amount of force points one can achieve to 2x force rating, the reason being that with the willpower + skill you can potentially score more than what your force rating inherently by the normal design would allow you to. A force dice can never generate more than two force points, nor can an ability or profiency dice score more than two successes, however because the force rating only gives 1 force per 1 force rating, the cap needs to be 2x force rating, if there wasn't a cap then one could more than one's force rating would allow. The force rating x2 isn't intended as doubling the user's force rating, if you look how it's written: " The user can manifest up to x2 it's force rating, any points generated that exceeds the maximum are ignored when resolved. " - this is specifically meant to cap one to one's force rating no matter how many you can roll on the ability/proficiency dice. Furthermore, it also says that circumstancial dices are added, which is a variable that depends on the actual circumstances of the situation the force user is in - which the force dice doesn't reflect, it could be as little as no circumstancial dices added, but it could also be more than what the force user would be able to handle.

To take your example - the force user with willpower 3, discipline 1:
The force user could get a maximum of 6 successes which translates to 6 force points, the user could also get none, but if the user were to get maximum, then the user would be capped at it's force rating x2.
So say this particular force user's FR was 2, then the force user would only get to use the 4 of the 6 points, and if FR of 1 then it would be only 2 force points. HOWEVER this is assuming there are no circumstances in the situation that can affect this particular force user's attempt at using the force - this is static on the force dice, it's always as easy or as difficult, depending on how you look at it. Like I said, this is assuming that there are no circumstances in the situation that can affect, but for the most part there will be. So consider if there had been 3 difficulty dice in this particular roll, thats potentially 6 failures that could be rolled, and if those were rolled it would cause those 6 successes to become the opposite of the intended force point generated, or say if it was 3 failures rolled, then it would be the result would be 3 light and 3 dark - which would make the user face a choice. Furthermore, there are also strain and conflict involved when using the destiny points, just like how it is with the force dice system.

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@SavageBob - I'm not upset with the system, it's not my intention to make it any less reliable, I thought I made that quite clear in my original post and in many of the following posts. I wanted to make something that the force dice inherently can't do, and if you read my response to Donovan, then you should get an idea - but in a nutshell, integreate the force dice in the dice pool framework already in the system, as that will allow for some other things that the force dice cannot ever do.
 

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What you're forgetting is that there are non-sentient animals who are capable of using the Force.

Actually, there are several things here you aren't considering, and one of them is that any being that is non-sentient typically relies on instinct, which in this context means that they're using instinct to use the force - they're using the force innately, sentient beings on the other hand are do not rely on instinct, instead they're conscious and thus they rely on their senses and mental faculties to use the force. Furthermore, parts of animal physiology can have evolved to be in tune with the force on an BIOLOGICAL level, which is completely different.

Like I said, currently all I hear is opinion, not an actual official statement from the creators of starwars or the developers of this game. I personally believe that a sentient being needs to be able to control it's mental faculties to be able to use the force, it needs knowledge about the force, it needs to be able to feel the force to use the force - which requires the use and control of one's mental faculties.

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To @everyone who haven't or don't want to read the original post because you feel it's long or something else but read the comments, please don't assume to too much, as the majority of people if not all, have either misunderstood, misinterpreted, miss-read or just blatantly not read it or skipped parts of it and assumed things, like for instance the x2 force rating EVERYONE has gotten wrong, it also seems that everyone has some kind of opinion on what my intention is or what my reasons are, which by the way for the most part have been incorrect on most counts. I'm not trying to convince anyone to use this system, but if they want to they're free to do so, what I want is constructive feedback, not for my system or me to bashed at relentlessly, I wouldn't constructive suggestions on how to adjust, tweak, improve and simplify it.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Corrections.

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  I looked over the system, and I feel it doesn't work well with certain force powers as you have it written.  Ebb &Flow works specifically with the force points generated and taking advantage of the results as generated in order to impact the scene.  Yours seems to let the player choose the results they are going after, which means the unique nature of Ebb and Flow is much more controlled by  the player, and not the "vagueries" of the force.   Ultimately, I won't use this.  If it works for your table, go for it. 

Also,  if you don't want critics to comment on your post, don't post it o  the forums.  Like most everyone else who had commented, I feel like it is trying to fix a non existent problem, and it has the potential to slow down play .

 

Also, I tend to leave most of the emotional state of the characters to the players (except when influenced by outside factors)  your system seems to put the onus of deciding what the character is feeling or experiencing emotionally in the game masters hands.  That leads to disenfranchisment, which leads to frustration,  which leads to hate, which leads to leaving the game in my experiences.

In short you do you, and enjoy it if it works for your table.

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@tunewalker - I tried to respond to posts in a chronological order, I hope it doesn't cause any confusion.

17 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit: I am not sure exactly how  your system works it was a bit complicated for me to understand so sorry about that and if this part doesnt actually make sense with your system, but if the person can choose if they generate light or dark, I feel that is to easy to stay light, that is also why i like the die as it is right now because the dark side is tempting to my players. Of course if this is not how it works then I am simply misunderstanding a couple of the arguments and never mind this spot :).

The short answer is both yes and no, they can choose and no, because..:

The thing is, they can choose what to manifest, but it's the job of the circumstancial dice to affect the outcome in negative way, and for the most part there will be circumstancial dice, and even if there aren't, the GM can easily adjust it so that there are, because there will for the most part always be something in the situation that affects. Basically the circumstancial dice can cause:
- Strain and/or conflict in the user.
- Intended force points to change to the OPPOSITE of the intended.
- The check to fail altogether, with potentially additional consequences for such.

So what happens when there are no circumstancial dice? The force user can both partially succeed or completely succeed, but can also completely fail but with no additional consequences. But thing is, why is it that when a force user has the best conditions to use the force, that it should still be as difficult or easy as for instance when they have bad situations to deal with - because that is what the force dice always enforced - the same probabilities. It basically says that a force user always will have the same conditions no matter what. So for instance if you have light sided force user who's calm and at peace, in a serene and tranquil environment, but because of the static distribution of the sided forced points, it will be just difficult or easy as always. To me that doesn't make any kind of sense, a light sided force user would have even better odds at generating light sided points in such a situation. My system reflects that, but the force dice does not. It's also one of the reason's I wanted to make a system that isn't based on something static, and I wanted to use the inbuilt dice pool system as it would make the most sense to use as it would easily be able to integrate seamlessly with types of checks, and it would even open up to a variety of new things. Like for instance using the force during an offensive or defensive action, like a lightsaber attack - which we happen to see in the movies and shows.

18 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit 2: Luke lifting the X-wing would likely be a combination of pips and discipline check, either one failing or not generating enough would prevent the lifting of the x-wing. Good chance of failure, but this is also a big story moment anyway. Setbacks added for self doubt destiny point flipped against Disc roll. Luke FR likely 3 at this point actually.

I concur, however his force rating is 2 at best at this point - 2 is either a self-taught exile or a padawan, heck he might even just be a force rating 1 and the scene being an extended opposed check and him being lucky on his initial rolls, but later don't get the light side force points keep up the strength upgrade, which makes him give up.

My system would just use his current willpower, discipline and force rating and add relevant circumstancial dice - probably willpower 3 and discipline 1, force rating 1 or 2, my take is force rating 1.
So in total the maximum amount of force points he could ever hope to generate would be 2 due to force rating x2 to cap, 4 if the force rating was 2.
The enviroment is a circumstancial factor in the situation and thus a contributing factor, this could either be a +1 setback or a +1 difficulty.
The self-doubt also a circumstancial factor in the situation, is most definitely also a contributing factor, this would be +1 setback.
Him still being in the early process of learning about the force and thus not have, if so, then it would be +1 difficulty.
Fatigue might also play a part, if so, it would be +1 difficulty.

18 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Edit 3: I do think you should make sure your players understand this system, get a chance to try it out and then give them an opportunity to choose whether they want this one or the normal one. This game is about having fun so what ever makes it more fun is the way you should do it. Dont be discouraged one way or another. :).

Fortunately, I don't discourage easily. All I wanted when I posted it here was to get constructive feedback, and potentially some constructive suggestions on adjustments, tweak, improvements and perhaps how to simplify it. Not to convince anyone to use it, anyone are more than welcome to use it if they want to. Unfortunately, some just want to bash at what they don't understand, or bash at it because it's different and not what they like. I though my system would be simple to understand because it uses the game's dicepool system, and basically it's an adaption using the game's dicepool system and mechanics with some rules and mechanics to support it - just like any dicepool system or force dice system has. So if it makes it easier better understand it, consider it more as the game's dice pool system.

15 hours ago, tunewalker said:

It is only 1 check, it is a combined check.... I understand that you are making things generate force points differently, I am saying I dont need my things to do that because it is not helping the story in any meaningful way nor do I feel the need to change how force points are generated. The force is everywhere and as people gain more FR that is the mark that they are becoming more aware and more connected and better trained in the force. Fear will affect their ability to concentrate not their mastery of the force so I treat it that way. Fear IS interacting with their abilities, just not how FP are generated, rather it interacts with what they can and cant concentrate on. Check combined force power check on 280 and 281 and resisting force power checks on 283. Again I understand what you are trying to do different, but from my personal experience it isnt different ENOUGH. I can still narratively handle fear during my force power checks, failing a fear check automatically provides conflict as is which as far as I am concerned takes care of the "even light pips can still be dark" + the added set back means that all FP checks become a combined check where they roll discipline = the fear difficulty + 1 setback due to the failed fear check + any additional modifiers. THis is only for skills that weren't already combined checks, things like throwing an object from a range is already going to be dealing with upgrades from adversary + set back from fear which will already negatively affect the amount of damage the character does, but if they are FR 3 they are still Jedi master level is connection and mastery of the force and I am not going to take that away from them. I know your thing generates Force points differently, but personally I do not feel that is needed, nor do I feel it adds enough narratively for the amount of extra work it takes me to do. Again this is me personally, if you and your players want to use it, more power to you mate. If someone else reads this and loves the idea go for it. Me personally it is a pass for. System as is works great for what I need it to do. If I want narrative stuff I have combined and resisted checks, if I dont I can just let them roll the force die and get tempted by the dark side even for the most mundane of things.

I do not seek to convince you about the system, but I tried to elaborate a bit on something you didn't understand with regards to my system.
However, fear might affect their ability to concentrate, but if you remember, fear leads to the dark side. By not letting fear interact with the OUTCOME of the force point generation, then fear doesn't do what it SHOULD do.
All it then does is potentially stop them from doing what they want to do. If temptation for the dark side is as you say in your game, it would make sense to actually make emotions be able to affect the outcome of the force point generation. It may feel like I'm trying to convince you to use it - I'm not, but I'm trying to prove to you and to others reading, this exactly one of my gripes with the force dice, the force point distribution AUTOMATICALLY assumes how difficult it will be for anyone to access the force, regardless of their situation, ability or skills - the only thing that matters with that is getting more dice ups the chances of getting what you want. I personally feel that the predetermined STATIC nature of the force dice interferes with how the situation affects the force users ability to generate the force points it needs. Furthermore, I think the choice of what one wants to generate also plays an important role, and more importantly whether to use the force or not, because the situation could easily be too circumstancial to use the force, like attempting to use while being very afraid.

Even with the force dice can one fail, not just because of choice but because of lacking destiny points, the probability for getting for force points about the same in either system, you can consider the circumstancial dices in my system as a dynamic dark side point distribution.

I hope it makes sense, but I probably have to present the rules by a different format to make them more understandable, even though I do find them easy enough to understand, but then again as I made it I know how it works.

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48 minutes ago, Raicheck said:

  I looked over the system, and I feel it doesn't work well with certain force powers as you have it written.  Ebb &Flow works specifically with the force points generated and taking advantage of the results as generated in order to impact the scene.  Yours seems to let the player choose the results they are going after, which means the unique nature of Ebb and Flow is much more controlled by  the player, and not the "vagueries" of the force.   Ultimately, I won't use this.  If it works for your table, go for it. 

Also,  if you don't want critics to comment on your post, don't post it o  the forums.  Like most everyone else who had commented, I feel like it is trying to fix a non existent problem, and it has the potential to slow down play .

 

Also, I tend to leave most of the emotional state of the characters to the players (except when influenced by outside factors)  your system seems to put the onus of deciding what the character is feeling or experiencing emotionally in the game masters hands.  That leads to disenfranchisment, which leads to frustration,  which leads to hate, which leads to leaving the game in my experiences.

In short you do you, and enjoy it if it works for your table.

Yes it lets the choose what they want to attempt to manifest, but it might not be what they actually get, it's the job of the circumstancial dice affect the outcome negatively, firstly by changing the intended force points generated to the opposite one by one, then if there are any remaining it will reduce the amount of force points generated. So no, it's not controlled by the player, the only thing thats controlled is what the player wants to generate, but like I said it's the job of the circumstancial dice affect the outcome. You can consider it the starting point, any failure will pull it to the other side, then any remaining will pull it towards failure, and if it results in a failure with a surplus of failures then the character suffers strain equal to that (perhaps also conflict).

I don't mind CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM when people have taken the time to at least read what I've written and tried to understand it, however I do mind if people keep going on about the same thing. All I asked for was constructive feedback, if people feel a need to bash, then they're at the wrong place.

The system doesn't direct the emotional state of the characters, however the system does have some rules that handles that aspect of the game, which in turn the system will use.
However, I will say one thing here, there things a player should be in control of and there are things the player should not in control of. The emotional state of a character is a somewhat controversial, I personally believe that a player controls the INITIAL emotional state of the character, but anything that happens in game which the character nor player is control that affects a character will affect whether the player likes it or not. I don't know if you're familiar with the term godmodding, but if the player refuses to accept and plays differently then that would be godmodding. Take a good example, hunger. The GM states that the player's character is starving because it hasn't eaten in a weak, the player responds: "My character isn't hungry because I don't want it to be hungry" - that is godmodding, and it's not something that character is control of. Like for instance in D&D, someone casts a charm spell, the character fails the save but refuses adhere to the effects of the charm spell, that is effectively godmodding. Same deal if something were to affect emotionally, like say the force or something that would cause great fear in someone, would do just that that if the check is failed. Failure to accept and play along with that consequence, would also be godmodding. So if the game system says something affect a character's thoughts and emotions a certain way, including a player's character, then it does. Fear is a good example of this. There are a lot of good examples.

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Going to respond to just a couple things. The "not in stressful situation" thing you mentioned is why I like the house rule made by the person who made the stats thread (sorry cant remember your name please dont hate me, I know it starts with an A). where she allows a person to "take a 10" where they can always generate 2/3 of their FR in FP rounded up for what ever task without having to roll. This means they also generate what ever side they want. Mostly because during "non-stressful" situations you usually are not strapped for time so you could in theory just reroll the die as many times as you want till you get exactly what you need. This just makes it faster and doesnt have someone fishing for one of those .15% chance things with infinite retrys. 

As far as Luke's FR I know he is FR 3 because we actually have a stat block for Battle of Hoth Luke in the allies and adversaries book and he is FR 3. This is no surprise as Vader is FR 6 and we are talking big time main characters here. Luke and Vader are innately 2 of the most powerful force users in star wars history, even if Luke doesn't quite have the mastery, the force is ridiculously strong with him. 

Edit: Fear does lead to the dark side, but that doesnt mean the force works differently, it just leads the character to the dark side which is why failed fear checks generate conflict which can bring you closer to the dark. I understand where you are coming from, but I feel that the required use of skills and combined checks makes it moot in most of my games as a failed discipline check or a failed coordination check can be described as them being unable to feel the force properly regardless of what the force die rolls. I get why you want to change it, more power to you, but I can get most of what you are describing narratively with combined checks. It may just be because I do not take the force die as a narrative die, simply a mechanical thing that works alongside the narrative stuff and just allows me to randomly tempt my players with the dark side.

Edit: I may respond later with more but I will say if you are looking for a different system I do think you should check out the Genesys system for magic, BUT also make sure that when you do so you do not copy the way they do magic exactly. tweaking the magic rules and which "force skills" to match the types of force powers you allow in your game can be huge. In addition to this you would probably have to tweak how some of the talents work or just use genesys in general for your talent system. For dark side vs light I would probably use disadvantages and despairs to change some of the successes into dark... in addition to their normal effects, probably not all of their effects since some of the way genesys magic system works is by making magic a little "RNG", but ya look at "upgrades" maybe as things that can alter the difficulty or the like. Ultimately it may just give you some ideas on how to tweak your system to improve upon it.

For consideration of force power skills, Sense, Enhance, Mental, Attack, Defense. Just to name broad ones that aren't to broad. I think each of these skills could also be linked to a different characteristic rather than having ALL of them linked to will power, but that would be up to you.


(sense powers would be things like sense, seek and foresee) Enhance would be enhance and MAYBE Heal/harm. Mental would be influence/ misdirect, attack would be push, pull, lightning, bind. Defense would be protect, maybe heal. I guess we would need something for other versions of move so we could just use alter, for effects that do not end up here (moving things, force storms, so on and so forth).


I do hope this helps, obviously I am not trying to attack you or your system you are just trying to enjoy the game and want something that feels better for your system, as usual I like this the way it is so I won't use it, but if you are looking for ideas I hope this helps a little, since I know I am not smart enough to really come up with full on systems for you.

Edited by tunewalker

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On 6/11/2019 at 2:02 AM, tunewalker said:

Going to respond to just a couple things. The "not in stressful situation" thing you mentioned is why I like the house rule made by the person who made the stats thread (sorry cant remember your name please dont hate me, I know it starts with an A). where she allows a person to "take a 10" where they can always generate 2/3 of their FR in FP rounded up for what ever task without having to roll. This means they also generate what ever side they want. Mostly because during "non-stressful" situations you usually are not strapped for time so you could in theory just reroll the die as many times as you want till you get exactly what you need. This just makes it faster and doesnt have someone fishing for one of those .15% chance things with infinite retrys. 

That would be Absol197, unless there is a different stats thread I'm not familiar with.
There is an issue with just being allowed to generate a certain amount of points automatically, which is a balance issue. Because you see minions and in rivals in general are not allowed to resist, only certain named rivals who're important to the plot and nemesises are. There can be a lot of situations that are not stressful, either of these could be. The only way to balance that would be to allow them to resist, which I think would cause more to fail than what would be good. I think in general it would be good that the players can choose what they want to generate, as long as they can still end up with something different when it's not in a non-stressful situation.

On 6/11/2019 at 2:02 AM, tunewalker said:

As far as Luke's FR I know he is FR 3 because we actually have a stat block for Battle of Hoth Luke in the allies and adversaries book and he is FR 3. This is no surprise as Vader is FR 6 and we are talking big time main characters here. Luke and Vader are innately 2 of the most powerful force users in star wars history, even if Luke doesn't quite have the mastery, the force is ridiculously strong with him. 

I don't know, because I don't have that book. Though I do find it a bit weird that he's pegged to be that strong, when he's only just begun his training - FR3 is knight-level. I have references from other systems, like from SW - Roleplaying Game (D20), in episode 4 Luke is just a force sensitive but doesn't have any jedi levels, the next reference point I have is at the END of episode 6. I personally don't believe he's at knight-level strength when he's training in the cave with Yoda, considering he's really just begun his training. But that's an entirely subjective decision.

On 6/11/2019 at 2:02 AM, tunewalker said:

I get why you want to change it, more power to you, but I can get most of what you are describing narratively with combined checks. It may just be because I do not take the force die as a narrative die, simply a mechanical thing that works alongside the narrative stuff and just allows me to randomly tempt my players with the dark side.

The way I see the force dice, a mechanical tool, that has an inbuilt descriptor about how difficult it will be to use the force, regardless of situation. It automatically assumes that it will just as difficult for anyone, of the same force strength, I feel that is completely incorrect representation of how it actually is.

On 6/11/2019 at 2:02 AM, tunewalker said:

I may respond later with more but I will say if you are looking for a different system I do think you should check out the Genesys system for magic, BUT also make sure that when you do so you do not copy the way they do magic exactly. tweaking the magic rules and which "force skills" to match the types of force powers you allow in your game can be huge. In addition to this you would probably have to tweak how some of the talents work or just use genesys in general for your talent system. For dark side vs light I would probably use disadvantages and despairs to change some of the successes into dark... in addition to their normal effects, probably not all of their effects since some of the way genesys magic system works is by making magic a little "RNG", but ya look at "upgrades" maybe as things that can alter the difficulty or the like. Ultimately it may just give you some ideas on how to tweak your system to improve upon it.


For consideration of force power skills, Sense, Enhance, Mental, Attack, Defense. Just to name broad ones that aren't to broad. I think each of these skills could also be linked to a different characteristic rather than having ALL of them linked to will power, but that would be up to you.


(sense powers would be things like sense, seek and foresee) Enhance would be enhance and MAYBE Heal/harm. Mental would be influence/ misdirect, attack would be push, pull, lightning, bind. Defense would be protect, maybe heal. I guess we would need something for other versions of move so we could just use alter, for effects that do not end up here (moving things, force storms, so on and so forth). 

I think what you could work, is adding three skills along side what I already have, as advantages can already be used to create more successes, recovering strain or cancelling out threats - threats does the opposite of the advantage dice, can create more failures, cause strain and cancel out advantages - as well as what they normally would be able to. The three skills I'm thinking of would be alter, control and sense, but they shouldn't be locked to a spefic ability but rather let it depend on the force power in question, although, though intellect, cunning, willpower or presence makes sense, as brawn and agility are physical aspects of the character. Then basically have each of the skills correspond to specific force powers that would fall in their category. The thing is, alter, control and sense is already in the SW D20 RP game established as foundational feats to be able to use force powers they're inherently linked with, and in that system force powers are also skills. Which is why I think it makes a great deal of sense to go with those three, as skills that reflect your overall skill with handling that aspect of the force, and since it's directly tied to force powers that are "based" on that skill. Some may require more than one, which would make those checks a combined check. There might be more skills that could fit being a foundational skill, but I don't think attack or defense makes sense, as some force powers that aren't considered attack or defence powers, can be used exactly as such. Maybe something like attunement or channel, as it will still be necessary to generate force points for talents and perhaps other things that don't fall under the others respectively. Another thing that is worth remembering, the game allows for freeform force powers, this something skills like these could help better control.

You shall be more than welcome to respond with more later.

On 6/11/2019 at 2:02 AM, tunewalker said:

I do hope this helps, obviously I am not trying to attack you or your system you are just trying to enjoy the game and want something that feels better for your system, as usual I like this the way it is so I won't use it, but if you are looking for ideas I hope this helps a little, since I know I am not smart enough to really come up with full on systems for you.

It does help, like I said I came to the forum to get constructive feedback and suggestions to adjust, tweak, improve and simply it. It's quite obvious you're not trying attack me or the system, and when I mentioned it, wasn't aimed at you, those it was know who they're. When it comes to build systems, it's all about using what comes to mind, try to make building blocks out of it and connect the blocks as you go, sometimes things needs to be rearranged, adjusted, tweak, sometimes you may have a lot of building blocks but no framework to tie it together. Fortunately, there is one here which makes it a bit easier, but the same time also a challenge as it has to fit with all the existing without messing too much with the balance.

 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
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13 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That would be Absol197, unless there is a different stats thread I'm not familiar with.
There is an issue with just being allowed to generate a certain amount of points automatically, which is a balance issue. Because you see minions and in rivals in general are not allowed to resist, only certain named rivals who're important to the plot and nemesises are. There can be a lot of situations that are not stressful, either of these could be. The only way to balance that would be to allow them to resist, which I think would cause more to fail than what would be good. I think in general it would be good that the players can choose what they want to generate, as long as they can still end up with something different when it's not in a non-stressful situation.

I don't know, because I don't have that book. Though I do find it a bit weird that he's pegged to be that strong, when he's only just begun his training - FR3 is knight-level. I have references from other systems, like from SW - Roleplaying Game (D20), in episode 4 Luke is just a force sensitive but doesn't have any jedi levels, the next reference point I have is at the END of episode 5 which AFTER the Battle at Hoth - in the END of episode he's knight level, I personally don't believe he's at knight-level strength when he's training in the cave with Yoda, considering he's really just begun his training. But that's an entirely subjective decision.

The way I see the force dice, a mechanical tool, that has an inbuilt descriptor about how difficult it will be to use the force, regardless of situation. It automatically assumes that it will just as difficult for anyone, of the same force strength, I feel that is completely incorrect representation of how it actually is.

I think what you could work, is adding three skills along side what I already have, as advantages can already be used to create more successes, recovering strain or cancelling out threats - threats does the opposite of the advantage dice, can create more failures, cause strain and cancel out advantages - as well as what they normally would be able to. The three skills I'm thinking of would be alter, control and sense, but they shouldn't be locked to a spefic ability but rather let it depend on the force power in question, although, though intellect, cunning, willpower or presence makes sense, as brawn and agility are physical aspects of the character. Then basically have each of the skills correspond to specific force powers that would fall in their category. The thing is, alter, control and sense is already in the SW D20 RP game established as foundational feats to be able to use force powers they're inherently linked with, and in that system force powers are also skills. Which is why I think it makes a great deal of sense to go with those three, as skills that reflect your overall skill with handling that aspect of the force, and since it's directly tied to force powers that are "based" on that skill. Some may require more than one, which would make those checks a combined check. There might be more skills that could fit being a foundational skill, but I don't think attack or defense makes sense, as some force powers that aren't considered attack or defence powers, can be used exactly as such. Maybe something like attunement or channel, as it will still be necessary to generate force points for talents and perhaps other things that don't fall under the others respectively. Another thing that is worth remembering, the game allows for freeform force powers, this something skills like these could help better control.

You shall be more than welcome to respond with more later.

It does help, like I said I came to the forum to get constructive feedback and suggestions to adjust, tweak, improve and simply it. It's quite obvious you're not trying attack me or the system, and when I mentioned it, wasn't aimed at you, those it was know who they're. When it comes to build systems, it's all about using what comes to mind, try to make building blocks out of it and connect the blocks as you go, sometimes things needs to be rearranged, adjusted, tweak, sometimes you may have a lot of building blocks but no framework to tie it together. Fortunately, there is one here which makes it a bit easier, but the same time also a challenge as it has to fit with all the existing without messing too much with the balance.

 

To the first thing, minions are not allowed to resist, but that IS a stressful situation. If you are getting shot at you roll the die and see if you can or can not generate light pips. Absol's solution is ONLY for situations that are not time consuming or stressful which is what you said your issue was. If you are trying to convince someone of something and they are minion or rival that is ALSO a stressful situation, just not a violent one. In these situations you roll the die and can potentially be tempted to use the dark side to get what you want out of these situations. Non-stressful situations is, you are sitting and meditating and floating rocks... ya ok.... or you want to use enhance to jump up to the next level while the room has already been emptied of guards... sure go ahead. Anything that just hand waving it would be faster WITHOUT breaking the flow or in situations where chances to fail would have no real consequences other than they have to try again, you can just do it by 'taking a 10'. I feel it represents the baseline of training a person has with the force since in non-stressful situations they can always consistently do this thing.

I do not feel Luke's power being FR 3 at start of hoth is all that far-fetched considering the people he has to face off against and what he has accomplished at this point. You still have to remember that he still tags vader by the end who has FR of 6 which is twice as high and full lightsaber skills and everything. Not to mention the death star shot which would have been nearly if not over impossible level difficulty. I have tried to point out multiple times on other forums and the like, Luke is a bad ***, he fails because the people he faces off against are some of the best the galaxy has ever seen in any time period. If he were against the average knight he would do fine.

I personally worry about "combined" skill checks for a single character because hte system does not really handle those well, which is why personally I still recommend any usage of the genesys magic system have more than 3 types of skills and have them envelope different kinds of powers. Control, sense and alter may be the 3 we are used to, but Alter encompasses to many things for me to be comfortable puting it as one skill. In this system.

Edited by tunewalker

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5 hours ago, tunewalker said:

To the first thing, minions are not allowed to resist, but that IS a stressful situation. If you are getting shot at you roll the die and see if you can or can not generate light pips. Absol's solution is ONLY for situations that are not time consuming or stressful which is what you said your issue was. If you are trying to convince someone of something and they are minion or rival that is ALSO a stressful situation, just not a violent one. In these situations you roll the die and can potentially be tempted to use the dark side to get what you want out of these situations. Non-stressful situations is, you are sitting and meditating and floating rocks... ya ok.... or you want to use enhance to jump up to the next level while the room has already been emptied of guards... sure go ahead. Anything that just hand waving it would be faster WITHOUT breaking the flow or in situations where chances to fail would have no real consequences other than they have to try again, you can just do it by 'taking a 10'. I feel it represents the baseline of training a person has with the force since in non-stressful situations they can always consistently do this thing.

I do not feel Luke's power being FR 3 at start of hoth is all that far-fetched considering the people he has to face off against and what he has accomplished at this point. You still have to remember that he still tags vader by the end who has FR of 6 which is twice as high and full lightsaber skills and everything. Not to mention the death star shot which would have been nearly if not over impossible level difficulty. I have tried to point out multiple times on other forums and the like, Luke is a bad ***, he fails because the people he faces off against are some of the best the galaxy has ever seen in any time period. If he were against the average knight he would do fine.

I personally worry about "combined" skill checks for a single character because hte system does not really handle those well, which is why personally I still recommend any usage of the genesys magic system have more than 3 types of skills and have them envelope different kinds of powers. Control, sense and alter may be the 3 we are used to, but Alter encompasses to many things for me to be comfortable puting it as one skill. In this system.

What I meant with that you can be in a non-stressful situation with what is considered a minion, rival or nemesis, is in the way that you're not in combat with them or the situation is in such a way that it could be considered negative or stressful.

In regards to him facing of against Vader - you also have to consider:
Vader didn't have the intent to destroy Luke, he wanted Luke to join him, so obviously he was just toying with him and not using his abilities, skills and powers to the full extent of his capacities, which is why it was possible for him overwhelm Vader on various occassions. When Luke fought Vader, he was also at times using the dark side, which empowered him to be able to perform better in combat against Vader.
We don't see what happens in between the movies, so we really don't know much about who's faced off against in those times, and those we see Luke fight against aren't that many who're noteworthy. When it comes to him destroying the death star, I would reckon that was simple use of sense and possibly something thats not really listed as something in the rules, something more freeform, perhaps a modified seek power. Essentially, he's using the force to sense the target and make his aim true in regards to it. Basically put, it would be nearly impossible to do for an NON-Force user, but for force users it's not such an impossible feat to do, because they can be assisted by the force. I'm not saying Luke isn't bad ***, in my opinion I don't think he's at that level in the cave with Yoda, but later on, in the end of episode 5 or beginning of episode 6, sure he's FR3.

Why do you think it doesn't handle combined checks well?

So, basically the Alter skill should broken into several different aspects of alter?

[Edit]
As for combining skill checks with the game's system with one check I can see done in several ways, one of the more obvious ways would be to combine the abilities and skills respectively and then take the average.
Another thing when combining skill checks, could be if the same the ability is in use, but more skills that uses the same ability in that check, skills would upgrade as many ability dice to proficiency as possible, and any surplus skill dice that wouldn't upgrade and ability dice would confer a boost dice, then of course add the negative dice - something down those lines.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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22 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Firstly, it's correct that it completely REPLACES the force dice, HOWEVER, not because it's too unreliable, but because of what it is, it can't do what I want to accomplish. I wanted to try and integrate the force dice system WITH the already existing dice pool system, and base it more on the user's abilities, skills force rating and any circumstances in the user's current situation, for a good number of reasons. Also to point out here, the user won't always get what it wants, even when it can choose what to manifest, because the circumstancial dices are intended to affect the outcome, either to change the intended force point to the OPPOSITE force point, or the very least cause strain in the user, or to make the potentially fail altogether.

Secondly, as I've explained before, including in the OP, the 2x force rating IS NOT that the user has double force rating, but that IT CAPS the amount of force points one can achieve to 2x force rating, the reason being that with the willpower + skill you can potentially score more than what your force rating inherently by the normal design would allow you to. A force dice can never generate more than two force points, nor can an ability or profiency dice score more than two successes, however because the force rating only gives 1 force per 1 force rating, the cap needs to be 2x force rating, if there wasn't a cap then one could more than one's force rating would allow. The force rating x2 isn't intended as doubling the user's force rating, if you look how it's written: " The user can manifest up to x2 it's force rating, any points generated that exceeds the maximum are ignored when resolved. " - this is specifically meant to cap one to one's force rating no matter how many you can roll on the ability/proficiency dice. Furthermore, it also says that circumstancial dices are added, which is a variable that depends on the actual circumstances of the situation the force user is in - which the force dice doesn't reflect, it could be as little as no circumstancial dices added, but it could also be more than what the force user would be able to handle.

To take your example - the force user with willpower 3, discipline 1:
The force user could get a maximum of 6 successes which translates to 6 force points, the user could also get none, but if the user were to get maximum, then the user would be capped at it's force rating x2.
So say this particular force user's FR was 2, then the force user would only get to use the 4 of the 6 points, and if FR of 1 then it would be only 2 force points. HOWEVER this is assuming there are no circumstances in the situation that can affect this particular force user's attempt at using the force - this is static on the force dice, it's always as easy or as difficult, depending on how you look at it. Like I said, this is assuming that there are no circumstances in the situation that can affect, but for the most part there will be. So consider if there had been 3 difficulty dice in this particular roll, thats potentially 6 failures that could be rolled, and if those were rolled it would cause those 6 successes to become the opposite of the intended force point generated, or say if it was 3 failures rolled, then it would be the result would be 3 light and 3 dark - which would make the user face a choice. Furthermore, there are also strain and conflict involved when using the destiny points, just like how it is with the force dice system.

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@SavageBob - I'm not upset with the system, it's not my intention to make it any less reliable, I thought I made that quite clear in my original post and in many of the following posts. I wanted to make something that the force dice inherently can't do, and if you read my response to Donovan, then you should get an idea - but in a nutshell, integreate the force dice in the dice pool framework already in the system, as that will allow for some other things that the force dice cannot ever do.
 

Actually, there are several things here you aren't considering, and one of them is that any being that is non-sentient typically relies on instinct, which in this context means that they're using instinct to use the force - they're using the force innately, sentient beings on the other hand are do not rely on instinct, instead they're conscious and thus they rely on their senses and mental faculties to use the force. Furthermore, parts of animal physiology can have evolved to be in tune with the force on an BIOLOGICAL level, which is completely different.

Like I said, currently all I hear is opinion, not an actual official statement from the creators of starwars or the developers of this game. I personally believe that a sentient being needs to be able to control it's mental faculties to be able to use the force, it needs knowledge about the force, it needs to be able to feel the force to use the force - which requires the use and control of one's mental faculties.

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To @everyone who haven't or don't want to read the original post because you feel it's long or something else but read the comments, please don't assume to too much, as the majority of people if not all, have either misunderstood, misinterpreted, miss-read or just blatantly not read it or skipped parts of it and assumed things, like for instance the x2 force rating EVERYONE has gotten wrong, it also seems that everyone has some kind of opinion on what my intention is or what my reasons are, which by the way for the most part have been incorrect on most counts. I'm not trying to convince anyone to use this system, but if they want to they're free to do so, what I want is constructive feedback, not for my system or me to bashed at relentlessly, I wouldn't constructive suggestions on how to adjust, tweak, improve and simplify it.

Did you ever consider that there is a very good reason why everyone is tearing your system apart? It's because, not only is it too complicated, it also flies in the face of the lore. For starters, a Dark Sider doesn't focus his mind, and maintain control when he uses the Force. He lashes out with his emotions, and unleashes the power of the Force on his victims violently and instinctively. Look at Kylo Ren, and Darth Vader for prime examples of this. There's no control, especially with Kylo Ren. It's all raw emotion and rage. Jedi were taught to maintain control of their emotions, and focus on their task, not in order to make it easier to tap into the Force, but, rather, to avoid falling to the Dark side, by letting their emotions get out of control, and unleashing the Force in potentially destructive ways. That is all covered in the existing Force Dice system. 

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Did you ever consider that there is a very good reason why everyone is tearing your system apart? It's because, not only is it too complicated, it also flies in the face of the lore. For starters, a Dark Sider doesn't focus his mind, and maintain control when he uses the Force. He lashes out with his emotions, and unleashes the power of the Force on his victims violently and instinctively. Look at Kylo Ren, and Darth Vader for prime examples of this. There's no control, especially with Kylo Ren. It's all raw emotion and rage. Jedi were taught to maintain control of their emotions, and focus on their task, not in order to make it easier to tap into the Force, but, rather, to avoid falling to the Dark side, by letting their emotions get out of control, and unleashing the Force in potentially destructive ways. That is all covered in the existing Force Dice system. 

In canon, any force sensitive being who's trained to use their force sensitivity consciously, can consciously sense and manipulate the energy known as the force, which in turn is what gives them their force powers. Even when the force is being used unconsciously, it's still the mind thats tapping into the force - so it absolutely requires control over one's mind. So even when you do lose self-control but not consciousness, one will still retain the ability to use the force.

The only reasons why Kylo Ren and many other Dark side users lashes out more violently is because they lose control of themselves because something has triggered their anger, which they have difficulty dealing with, but any force user who loses self-control, don't necessarily lose control of all of their emotions, some emotions will take over. Quite clearly, anger issues aren't representative for every dark side user, just because it's one of the primary emotions that can lead to the dark side. Interestingly you bring up Vader, because Vader especially is very much in control of his emotions, and I would like to point out that a dark side user actually quite often will be very much in control of their emotions, giving into the anger, hate and/or fear is a choice - a conscious or subconscious choice, and quite litterally if they're not in control it could spell their own doom! In most of episode 4-6 we almost never see Vader, let go of his emotions, there is only really one where it results in Luke losing his hand, and that was as result of Luke hitting him in the shoulder with the light saber. Actually for the most part, Vader is VERY controlled in regards to his emotions. Vader could easily have defeated Luke, in each of every encounter they had, but because Vader did not truly want to destroy Luke, he did not unleash his full potential or even much of it.

So it doesn't matter what you call it, they still use their mind to feel and use their connection to the force. Both light and dark siders both use their thoughts and emotions to access the force, with their intentions "coloring" and giving the powers the sided qualites from the emotions, and they use different emotions and respective aspects of it to do this, and the jedi code and sith both reflect this in their own way. They both also focus when they use it, focus what they want to do with it, but how much and how long they need to focus certainly depends how trained they are and how their current situation affects them. Let me also point out, just because you don't see that it's the mind doing it, doesn't meant that it's not the mind thats doing it. Let me remind you that the force is something personal and deeply spiritual to the core within a force sensitive's being, and that a dark side user can't use the light side of the force is actually a very big misconception, because they absolutely can if they need to, but it's much more difficult when they've attuned themselves to the dark side. In the D20 SW game, that's reflected as a numerical penalty when trying to use the light side as a force user attuned to the dark side, where they would get a numerical bonus to use the dark side. This system, treats it like they can't, and they will forever only be able to use the dark side UNLESS they redeem themselves, which in my opinion FLIES IN THE FACE OF LORE as you call it.

Speaking of rage, the rage that is very much controlled is far more dangerous comparison to raw and uncontrolled rage. Furthermore, the dark side isn't just about rage and destruction, it's also about anger, fear, hatred, pain, suffering, malice, corruption, destruction - essential very negative emotions, but not just those,

Also, that dark siders don't focus is very much so a misconception, because they do focus, but their focus is more "with a narrow specific purpose". It's their passion that "fuels" their use of the force, and passion exist within in the mind, not in the connection with the force. It's knowlegde about the force, training and practicing sensing and manipulating the force, skills various skills that support the use of the force including discipline, thoughts and emotional states for both sides that enables the use of the force. And passion? Passion can be a catalyst for both sides. Even the sith code reflects this in it's very first paragraph. " Peace is a lie. There is only Passion."
- There is only PASSION! (Compassion included).

Anyone using the force, can with enough knowledge, skill and strength in the force, make the powers that are equal or similar, however it's the emotion and intent that colors it, and ultimately gives the powers their qualities and drawbacks. Take for example, force lightning, that is possible for both sides - essentially it's ligtning created by the force, when it's colored by the light side, it won't be harmful or destructive but when colored by the dark side, it will become harmful and destructive. I see the force as being neutral, but emotions are what fuels and thus gives them their sided qualities. I know there are lot of people who share this perception of it, and it makes perfect sense in canon, as force is balance, the balance between light and dark is NEUTRAL.

With regards to my system, the fact that one can fail, not because of choice, but circumstances, reflects one thing that Yoda says "The greatest teacher, failure is.". You cannot truly fail with the force dice system, only because of choices.

You probably disagree with me on all points! But I've asked for official statements to back your arguments, several times now, and you've so far provided none.

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10 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

You cannot truly fail with the force dice system, only because of choices.

This is incorrect. You can fail by not rolling pips matching your alignment (light or dark) so long as any of the below are true:

  • You have already flipped a Destiny Point on the action and thus cannot use a second one to access pips of the opposite alignment.
  • You don't have a light side Destiny Point in the pool to flip.
  • You cannot take the Strain to use the points of the opposite alignment (you cannot voluntarily exceed your Strain Threshold).

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

This is incorrect. You can fail by not rolling pips matching your alignment (light or dark) so long as any of the below are true:

  • You have already flipped a Destiny Point on the action and thus cannot use a second one to access pips of the opposite alignment.
  • You don't have a light side Destiny Point in the pool to flip.
  • You cannot take the Strain to use the points of the opposite alignment (you cannot voluntarily exceed your Strain Threshold).

Notice, I wrote due to choices? This also accounts for choices leading up to the failure, like a choice to spend a destiny point earlier on during the session. But I'll grant that of course there situations where you don't have any of the required resources and in those events you can fail (like also starting out with zero destiny points). Either way though, this force dice system has that part all wrong, because a light side or dark side user of the force, is never ever barred from using the other side of force, it's only harder (more difficult) for a dark side attuned force user to use the light side, but not impossible, where a light side user always can choose the the dark side, and having it made in a way that results in that you can't choose light or dark unless you spend a resource, is NOT true to the lore. Other SW RP systems reflect that it's possible but more difficult, however this system reflects the complete opposite - that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE and incorrect according to lore - at the very least the lore I'm familiar with! Which is also one of the reasons why I wanted to make a system such as the one in the OP.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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6 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

What I meant with that you can be in a non-stressful situation with what is considered a minion, rival or nemesis, is in the way that you're not in combat with them or the situation is in such a way that it could be considered negative or stressful.

In regards to him facing of against Vader - you also have to consider:
Vader didn't have the intent to destroy Luke, he wanted Luke to join him, so obviously he was just toying with him and not using his abilities, skills and powers to the full extent of his capacities, which is why it was possible for him overwhelm Vader on various occassions. When Luke fought Vader, he was also at times using the dark side, which empowered him to be able to perform better in combat against Vader.
We don't see what happens in between the movies, so we really don't know much about who's faced off against in those times, and those we see Luke fight against aren't that many who're noteworthy. When it comes to him destroying the death star, I would reckon that was simple use of sense and possibly something thats not really listed as something in the rules, something more freeform, perhaps a modified seek power. Essentially, he's using the force to sense the target and make his aim true in regards to it. Basically put, it would be nearly impossible to do for an NON-Force user, but for force users it's not such an impossible feat to do, because they can be assisted by the force. I'm not saying Luke isn't bad ***, in my opinion I don't think he's at that level in the cave with Yoda, but later on, in the end of episode 5 or beginning of episode 6, sure he's FR3.

Why do you think it doesn't handle combined checks well?

So, basically the Alter skill should broken into several different aspects of alter?

[Edit]
As for combining skill checks with the game's system with one check I can see done in several ways, one of the more obvious ways would be to combine the abilities and skills respectively and then take the average.
Another thing when combining skill checks, could be if the same the ability is in use, but more skills that uses the same ability in that check, skills would upgrade as many ability dice to proficiency as possible, and any surplus skill dice that wouldn't upgrade and ability dice would confer a boost dice, then of course add the negative dice - something down those lines.

you are going to need to give me an example of a "non-stressful" situation that includes using force powers on PC's because I can not think of a single situation where a character is using a FP on a NPC that does not include them rolling the die by Abysol's suggestion, nor do I ever have them not roll the die so far.


In regards to Vader vs Luke. Luke by episode 6 is stronger than Vader, they are both holding back in their duel above Endor and Luke actually holds the advantage the entire duel. Yes Luke goes full out when he wins, but even before than Vader is trying to goad him into a fight and Luke is the one that is taking the edge at all points in that battle. So by Episode 6 he is probably FR 6 or even 7 definitely not FR 3. And again according to the book he is FR 3 as of Battle of Hoth. As for things like him failing to lift the X-wing and all that goes, Yoda had reason to believe that Luke COULD do it and it was simply his lack of discipline and lack of belief not his connection or strength in the force. To me Luke didnt fail to generate the FP to lift the X-wing, he failed at the discipline check to hold his concentration on something that he believed impossible. The Ship starts to move up, that would not have been possible without the strength of the force to do so.

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18 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Notice, I wrote due to choices? This also accounts for choices leading up to the failure, like a choice to spend a destiny point earlier on during the session. But I'll grant that of course there situations where you don't have any of the required resources and in those events you can fail (like also starting out with zero destiny points). Either way though, this force dice system has that part all wrong, because a light side or dark side user of the force, is never ever barred from using the other side of force, it's only harder (more difficult) for a dark side attuned force user to use the light side, but not impossible, where a light side user always can choose the the dark side, and having it made in a way that results in that you can't choose light or dark unless you spend a resource, is NOT true to the lore. Other SW RP systems reflect that it's possible but more difficult, however this system reflects the complete opposite - that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE and incorrect according to lore - at the very least the lore I'm familiar with! Which is also one of the reasons why I wanted to make a system such as the one in the OP.

You want to slam some battle droids. You roll your force dice and only get darkside pips. You choose not to use those darkside pips. And you fail to use your power because you choose not to use the darkside pips.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

you are going to need to give me an example of a "non-stressful" situation that includes using force powers on PC's because I can not think of a single situation where a character is using a FP on a NPC that does not include them rolling the die by Abysol's suggestion, nor do I ever have them not roll the die so far.

Using force powers on PCs is outside the scope of what I was talking about, as PC are allowed to resist force powers on them. Simple use of the classic mind trick, could be done in a multitude of scenerio that doesn't involve a stressful situation, naturally they can evolve into one, but they can be kept from becoming that through the use of mind trick, and minion-level and rival-level npcs aren't allowed to resist against it.

22 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

In regards to Vader vs Luke. Luke by episode 6 is stronger than Vader, they are both holding back in their duel above Endor and Luke actually holds the advantage the entire duel. Yes Luke goes full out when he wins, but even before than Vader is trying to goad him into a fight and Luke is the one that is taking the edge at all points in that battle. So by Episode 6 he is probably FR 6 or even 7 definitely not FR 3. And again according to the book he is FR 3 as of Battle of Hoth. As for things like him failing to lift the X-wing and all that goes, Yoda had reason to believe that Luke COULD do it and it was simply his lack of discipline and lack of belief not his connection or strength in the force. To me Luke didnt fail to generate the FP to lift the X-wing, he failed at the discipline check to hold his concentration on something that he believed impossible. The Ship starts to move up, that would not have been possible without the strength of the force to do so.

He might hold the advantage, but that is ONLY, and that is with a big emphasis on only because Vader is holding back on his full capabilities, during every fight scene Luke has with Vader, there is only one fight where uses a little bit more of his capabilities, and that is in episode 5, but that's only really because Luke angers him. Vader has no intention of destroying Luke, which is why he's holding back, which is the ONLY reason Luke is able to seemingly hold the advantage. In the final battle, I don't think he's FR6 or 7, if anything he's closer to 4, there is simply too much progression to cover for him to be a 5, 6 or even a 7. He doesn't display anything that would indicate he's a force user at those levels you say.

17 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You want to slam some battle droids. You roll your force dice and only get darkside pips. You choose not to use those darkside pips. And you fail to use your power because you choose not to use the darkside pips.

But that was my point, you can only fail because you choose to fail - however that was what @HappyDaze pointed out, you can also failed because of lacking the resource point that allows you to take the opposite sided force point.

However, my point still is, that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use the other side of the force and that is incorrect according to lore, and there reason there will be times is due to two things:

  1. An attuned force user cannot in this system use the opposite force side of it's attunement.
  2. It requires one or more resources to use the opposite force side of it's attunement.

This creates scenarios where it will be impossible to use the opposite force side rather than it just being more difficult for a dark side user to use the light side of the force, but moreso that the light side user can't even when it supposed to be easier to use the dark side of the force. In my opinion that is big lore-break right there.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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43 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Notice, I wrote due to choices? This also accounts for choices leading up to the failure, like a choice to spend a destiny point earlier on during the session. But I'll grant that of course there situations where you don't have any of the required resources and in those events you can fail (like also starting out with zero destiny points). Either way though, this force dice system has that part all wrong, because a light side or dark side user of the force, is never ever barred from using the other side of force, it's only harder (more difficult) for a dark side attuned force user to use the light side, but not impossible, where a light side user always can choose the the dark side, and having it made in a way that results in that you can't choose light or dark unless you spend a resource, is NOT true to the lore. Other SW RP systems reflect that it's possible but more difficult, however this system reflects the complete opposite - that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE and incorrect according to lore - at the very least the lore I'm familiar with! Which is also one of the reasons why I wanted to make a system such as the one in the OP.

So how did your Force dice come up when you used Move on the goalposts?

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