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InfinityIncarnate

Force Power Manifestation System - An universal force point generation system.

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm sorry to say, but you're very, very wrong here. You have very obviously misinterpreted or misunderstood the system that I've made. Because the system currently only deals with GENERATING force points based on ability, skill, force rating and circumstances in the user current situation. And again, you're not guaranteed success with this system, this should be inherently obvious as there are blanks on all dice EXCEPT the force dice, but this system doesn't use the force dice, so with this system you can inherently fail, both from rolling blanks, but also from successess being negated, and even when they're not negated you can still up with the OPPOSITE of what you intended to generate. So NO, there are NO GUARANTEES that you will successfully generate force points, even without circumstacial dices. I still don't get how you find that this system I've made gives anyone the guarantees you say it gives.

You only roll force dice when you use the move. so if you automatically succeed. And as I said if that is not the case it is a lovely example of why I said your rules are way needlessly complicated. It is a huge wall of text that adds complication to a system that is roll dice count pips.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You only roll force dice when you use the move. so if you automatically succeed. And as I said if that is not the case it is a lovely example of why I said your rules are way needlessly complicated. It is a huge wall of text that adds complication to a system that is roll dice count pips.

You'd use my system when you need to generate force points, and my system does NOT use the force dice. Are you still not getting, that you don't automatically succeed with my system, that it's possible to actually fail? Fail as in the sense that no amount of destiny points will actually fix. And the reason it only currently only handles the generation of points, is because it needs to be adjusted and tweaked. The main idea is that because it uses the dice pool system, it should be able to integrate well with other checks, when combining them.

Say you'd use the force move, you're using the control upgrade that lets you attack with it.
Essentially, you'd assemble the dicepool to generate the force points, ie. willpower and displine, then you'd add in what you need to make the ranged combat check, and since as far as I know, it's the same ability and skill, then all you'd need to add as well would be ranged combat difficulty dice. Since there are difficulty dices involved including any other potential circumstancial dices, I'd definitely say that it's far from being automatic success. Why? Because any circumstancial dice, this means any negative dice, more circumstancial dices incurs more chances for the check to fail - ability and proficiency dices both have blanks, which means they can inherently fail irregardless of what the circumstancial dice turns up as.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm not talking about the force powers being connected to the character's other abilities and skills, but that the character's abilities and skills most certainly are connected to how well the force user is physically and mentally equipped to harness and handle the force, even the discription of the skill discipline indicates this. Strength in the force isn't the only thing that governs how well a force user can use the force.

I disagree. Why? Because Yoda may be extremely powerful with the force, but if it was not for his willpower, wisdom, knowledge, insights and discipline ie. his abilities and skills, he would not be able to control his connection to the force, he might be able to harness and control it untrained, but Yoda is extremely far from being untrained, he has some 900 years of practice, training and development of his abilities and skills, which is what makes him so powerful in the force. When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.

In fact, because of the distribution of the sided force points, it inherently reflects both strength and skill, but this is first of all a static, secondly it's not individually tied to the characters abilities and skills. So for instance you could have one who only has 2 will power and 1 discipline but has 7 FR, does that to you seem plausible, that one that show's such a strong connection to the force would have only 2 will power and 1 discipline? Or the other way around, that one who has an exceptional training and thus has a high willpower and discipline, 5 in both, but only be knight level in force rating, would show inferior skill with handling the force than his willpower or discipline would suggest? The force dice is disconnected from the characters abilities and skills, but shouldn't be.

First of all, this has nothing to do with the grey jedi or grey force users, so please do keep that out of this topic, thank you! Secondly, one under this is system are under NO CIRCUMSTANCES  GUARANTEED double the force rating! Guess you haven't realized this, but number of maximum points you can get on a force dice is 2, which you can get with a FR of 1, hence why the MAXIMUM AMOUNT that can be generated has to be x2, because anything else would not reflect the force dice. Thirdly, it's actually possible to fail as ability and proficiency dice has blanks on it, which the force dice do not. That one is able to choose what side of the force to manifest, is necessary as successess or failures do not have a color, and it gives the user a choice but isn't ensured that it will turn out as what was intended, and can even outright fail with added consequences. The part about not needing to worry about conflict, I don't follow, as one gets conflict for using force points of the opposing side. Furthermore, whatever circumstancial dices that are added, is something the player has no control over and is based on the circumstances of situation. So exactly does this become powergames wet dream?
 

There definitely is a benefit to the system, but apparently you can't see it, even despite the fact that I directly explained it.
So basically, if you think this is needlessly complicated, then you should say the same about the game system's dice system, as it also bogs the game down, and my system is based on that system, so go figure.

The only thing Discipline does in this game regarding the use of the Force, is determining opposed checks, since certain Force powers, such as the Jedi Mind trick can be thwarted by a strong will. Canonically, having a strong will and discipline is more for resisting Force powers or resisting the lure of the Dark Side. Yoda’s wisdom didn’t help him to actually use the Force. What it did do is help him discern when to use it and in what manner. It also helped him resist giving in to his darker emotions and his passions, and thus resist the temptation of the Dark Side. It did not actually factor in his actual ability to use the Force.

Not only that, but there have been numerous examples in both canon and Legends of physically beaten and bloodied Jedi who specifically used the Force to recover from their exhaustion and/or injuries. This too flies in the face of your assertion that a Jedi’s ability to tap into the Force is connected to his physical well-being or wisdom. There is no connection there. A Force user’s ability to use the Force is strictly tied into his or her strength in the Force. 

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The only thing Discipline does in this game regarding the use of the Force, is determining opposed checks, since certain Force powers, such as the Jedi Mind trick can be thwarted by a strong will. Canonically, having a strong will and discipline is more for resisting Force powers or resisting the lure of the Dark Side. Yoda’s wisdom didn’t help him to actually use the Force. What it did do is help him discern when to use it and in what manner. It also helped him resist giving in to his darker emotions and his passions, and thus resist the temptation of the Dark Side. It did not actually factor in his actual ability to use the Force.

Not only that, but there have been numerous examples in both canon and Legends of physically beaten and bloodied Jedi who specifically used the Force to recover from their exhaustion and/or injuries. This too flies in the face of your assertion that a Jedi’s ability to tap into the Force is connected to his physical well-being or wisdom. There is no connection there. A Force user’s ability to use the Force is strictly tied into his or her strength in the Force. 

How very interesting, when the FaD says something different about what discipline can be used for: "Often, when summoning the Force in order to throw objects at people, influence the mental state of others, or otherwise affect individuals, a character may also need to succeed on a Discipline check.".

You say that wisdom didn't actually help him use the force, wisdom also encompasses being experienced and having a deep understanding of subject, and in this case it's the force. I'd say being experienced in using the force most certainly helped him use the force, because he knew how to use his will to properly control his mental faculties so that he could harness and control the force. I didn't say that a force users ability to tap into the force connected to his well-being or wisdom - What I said was "When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.".

Yoda, says and implies a lot of things when it comes to using the force that supports that one definitely needs knowledge about the force and to be able to control one's mental faculties in order to use the force.
One must have a calm and clear mind..
One must feel the force around one.
One must believe in oneself..
One must have faith in the force..
One must use ones feelings..
One must learn control..

With your logic, Luke could just use the force without any kind of training, without developing his mental faculties and his discipline, without being taught the ways of the force - which is certainly not how it happens.
With what you're saying, one could be utterly braindamaged but still use the force if he or she is strong enough in it, which I do not agree with.

There most certainly is a connection between the force user's knowledge and mental faculties with regards to using the force, it's not just about the user strength of the force.
Is there an actual stance on this matter, an official statement? Because what you say seems a lot like personal opinion.

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1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

You'd use my system when you need to generate force points, and my system does NOT use the force dice. Are you still not getting, that you don't automatically succeed with my system, that it's possible to actually fail? Fail as in the sense that no amount of destiny points will actually fix. And the reason it only currently only handles the generation of points, is because it needs to be adjusted and tweaked. The main idea is that because it uses the dice pool system, it should be able to integrate well with other checks, when combining them.

Say you'd use the force move, you're using the control upgrade that lets you attack with it.
Essentially, you'd assemble the dicepool to generate the force points, ie. willpower and displine, then you'd add in what you need to make the ranged combat check, and since as far as I know, it's the same ability and skill, then all you'd need to add as well would be ranged combat difficulty dice. Since there are difficulty dices involved including any other potential circumstancial dices, I'd definitely say that it's far from being automatic success. Why? Because any circumstancial dice, this means any negative dice, more circumstancial dices incurs more chances for the check to fail - ability and proficiency dices both have blanks, which means they can inherently fail irregardless of what the circumstancial dice turns up as.

and here is the problem. Stop assuming the roll requires a roll other than force dice. I want to move my lightsaber to my hand. no roll needed. will succeed every time. nothing to worry about.  And that is an issue.

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4 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

How very interesting, when the FaD says something different about what discipline can be used for: "Often, when summoning the Force in order to throw objects at people, influence the mental state of others, or otherwise affect individuals, a character may also need to succeed on a Discipline check.".

You say that wisdom didn't actually help him use the force, wisdom also encompasses being experienced and having a deep understanding of subject, and in this case it's the force. I'd say being experienced in using the force most certainly helped him use the force, because he knew how to use his will to properly control his mental faculties so that he could harness and control the force. I didn't say that a force users ability to tap into the force connected to his well-being or wisdom - What I said was "When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.".

Yoda, says and implies a lot of things when it comes to using the force that supports that one definitely needs knowledge about the force and to be able to control one's mental faculties in order to use the force.
One must have a calm and clear mind..
One must feel the force around one.
One must believe in oneself..
One must have faith in the force..
One must use ones feelings..
One must learn control..

With your logic, Luke could just use the force without any kind of training, without developing his mental faculties and his discipline, without being taught the ways of the force - which is certainly not how it happens.
With what you're saying, one could be utterly braindamaged but still use the force if he or she is strong enough in it, which I do not agree with.

There most certainly is a connection between the force user's knowledge and mental faculties with regards to using the force, it's not just about the user strength of the force.
Is there an actual stance on this matter, an official statement? Because what you say seems a lot like personal opinion.

by your logic Luke would have had no problem pulling his x-wing out of the swamp.  where as in reality he probably didn't roll enough pips on his force dice roll. he was probably at 2 force dice at the point with a strength upgrade and a magnitude upgrade. Which means he needed to roll 4 lightside pips.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and here is the problem. Stop assuming the roll requires a roll other than force dice. I want to move my lightsaber to my hand. no roll needed. will succeed every time. nothing to worry about.  And that is an issue.

I'm not!
Seems you're not getting what this system is about, sigh.
I keep trying to tell you, this system is for a different way of handling what the force dice does, a way that is more accurate and centric to character's abilities, skills, force rating and actual circumstances from it's current situation.

18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

by your logic Luke would have had no problem pulling his x-wing out of the swamp.  where as in reality he probably didn't roll enough pips on his force dice roll. he was probably at 2 force dice at the point with a strength upgrade and a magnitude upgrade. Which means he needed to roll 4 lightside pips. 

Far from it. By my logic, he would need knowlegde about the force, he'd need to train his mental faculties, discipline, develop his connection to the force and improve the strength of it, but most certainly also improve his move power - to be able to that. Because, despite if it's my system or the force dice, getting enough points is still limited by force rating. Furthermore, both systems can only generate 4 force points at force rating 2.
With my system, he'd need the same amount of successes in surplus - so in that regard there would be no difference between the two systems, he'd have just as much trouble of trying to lift that out of the swamp as he would with the force dice, the difference is that my system could accurately reflect why, the force dice cannot. It can reflect it through the various circumstancial dices added, which can be others than the ones currently mentioned, some of those that would be fitting here would be his lack of faith in the force, lack of self-confidence, him still being in the early phases of training (ie. him learning), etc.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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2 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm not!
Seems you're not getting what this system is about, sigh.
I keep trying to tell you, this system is for a different way of handling what the force dice does, a way that is more accurate and centric to character's abilities, skills, force rating and actual circumstances from it's current situation.

Far from it. By my logic, he would need knowlegde about the force, he'd need to train his mental faculties, discipline, develop his connection to the force and improve the strength of it, but most certainly also improve his move power - to be able to that. Because, despite if it's my system or the force dice, getting enough points is still limited by force rating. Furthermore, both systems can only generate 4 force points at force rating 2.
With my system, he'd need the same amount of successes in surplus - so in that regard there would be no difference between the two systems, he'd have just as much trouble of trying to lift that out of the swamp as he would with the force dice, the difference is that my system could reflect precisely why, the force dice cannot.

And this is why your idea sucks. It adds a whole bunch of extra rolls for stuff that before was just roll to see what pips you got with a temptation to use those darkside pips

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Another example influence on minions. You dont roll to influence minions. You always get the force points you need now. No problem. 

You do normally roll to generate the points! The only thing you don't do with influence against minions, is do an opposed roll, because they don't get to resist when they're just minions.
With my system roll with to generate the points, just like you normally would do with the force dice, so where is it different?

19 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And this is why your idea sucks. It adds a whole bunch of extra rolls for stuff that before was just roll to see what pips you got with a temptation to use those darkside pips

Because the behind idea the system isn't just about "just to see what points can get", it's to more accurately reflect how the circumstance of the situation affects the user's capabilities when attempting to use the force. In case you haven't actually noticed, with my system, it's not just that you try without potential consequenses, there are ACTUAL potential consequences for trying - like suffering strain and conflict, even it doesn't result in a success. And that you can actually succeed, but suffering strain in the proces. My system reflects how the circumstances of situation AFFECTS the user when attempting to use the force!

It actually doesn't add more rolls, it just adds more dices to the roll!

...and I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the bashing, thank you!

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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17 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

You do normally roll to generate the points! The only thing you don't do with influence against minions, is do an opposed roll, because they don't get to resist when they're just minions.
With my system roll with to generate the points, just like you normally would do with the force dice, so where is it different?

Because the behind idea the system isn't just about "just to see what points can get", it's to more accurately reflect how the circumstance of the situation affects the user's capabilities when attempting to use the force. In case you haven't actually noticed, with my system, it's not just that you try without potential consequenses, there are ACTUAL potential consequences for trying - like suffering strain and conflict, even it doesn't result in a success. And that you can actually succeed, but suffering strain in the proces. My system reflects how the circumstances of situation AFFECTS the user when attempting to use the force!

It actually doesn't add more rolls, it just adds more dices to the roll!

...and I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the bashing, thank you!

Then you have written you description terribly because it say you double force rating etc. So yeah not only is your system more complicated and harder. Which just reinforces my opinion RAW is way way better.

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Posted (edited)

Ok so to answer your specific question to me @infiniteincarnate I would not do anything to adjust force point generation as I find combined skill checks + the conflict/ strain/ destiny point usage enough to allow me to do things given specific situations. For example the situation you gave based on them being afraid I can simply have the player make a combined force power and discipline or cool check every time they want to use a force power, if they do not succeed at the cool/ discipline check it doesnt matter how many force points they generate they fail to use the force as they fail to concentrate.... this allows me to add setbacks and the like without any added complexity or difficulty. So ultimately I do not feel the need to change how FP are generated because it doesn't actually do anything to help or hinder the stories or the mechanics of the game for me, but again I will never tell people what to do at their table if they want to use house rules, this is just not want that solves a problem I am having, nor is it making something simpler and easier for me to run. Happy gaming everyone :).

Edit: I am not sure exactly how  your system works it was a bit complicated for me to understand so sorry about that and if this part doesnt actually make sense with your system, but if the person can choose if they generate light or dark, I feel that is to easy to stay light, that is also why i like the die as it is right now because the dark side is tempting to my players. Of course if this is not how it works then I am simply misunderstanding a couple of the arguments and never mind this spot :).

Edit 2: Luke lifting the X-wing would likely be a combination of pips and discipline check, either one failing or not generating enough would prevent the lifting of the x-wing. Good chance of failure, but this is also a big story moment anyway. Setbacks added for self doubt destiny point flipped against Disc roll. Luke FR likely 3 at this point actually.

Edit 3: I do think you should make sure your players understand this system, get a chance to try it out and then give them an opportunity to choose whether they want this one or the normal one. This game is about having fun so what ever makes it more fun is the way you should do it. Dont be discouraged one way or another. :).

Edited by tunewalker

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10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Then you have written you description terribly because it say you double force rating etc. So yeah not only is your system more complicated and harder. Which just reinforces my opinion RAW is way way better.

It clearly states, how the force rating x2 is intended, it works as a cap. It's says that the user cannot manifest more than force rating x2, anything above that when the check is resolved, is ignored. 

Like I said earlier, you most likely misunderstood, misinterpreted or misread something about the system, which turns out to be true.

It may be more complicated, but it has more uses than the force dice, including being able to handle skill checks while one is attempting to use the force as well. Like, for instance if one is making an attack one could be generating force points as well, success generated could be used on either, but if one were using successes to generate force points as well one would suffer strain equal to the amount generated. 

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10 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

It clearly states, how the force rating x2 is intended, it works as a cap. It's says that the user cannot manifest more than force rating x2, anything above that when the check is resolved, is ignored. 

Like I said earlier, you most likely misunderstood, misinterpreted or misread something about the system, which turns out to be true.

It may be more complicated, but it has more uses than the force dice, including being able to handle skill checks while one is attempting to use the force as well. Like, for instance if one is making an attack one could be generating force points as well, success generated could be used on either, but if one were using successes to generate force points as well one would suffer strain equal to the amount generated. 

Yeah your system is too complicated. Which in my mind makes it garbage. I mean it is like 2 pages to cover what RAW does in a couple paragraphes. For no benefit at all. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Yeah your system is too complicated. Which in my mind makes it garbage. I mean it is like 2 pages to cover what RAW does in a couple paragraphes. For no benefit at all. 

It's less than that, but my system also does a lot more than what the force dice does, and a lot more force dice cannot do, and further more min is also made so that it seamsless can integrate with other checks, not just skill checks. It can handle how the ENTIRE situation could affect the user while attempting to generate force points - which the force dice cannot handle inherently, my system can because it's made to be able to. You're more than welcome to think what you want, but you've also proven you don't understand it and what it's for and what it can do, all while you've been relentlessly bashing at it, instead offering constructive feedback, which is what I asked for.

Ps. To be fair, the book also uses several pages to describe mechanics that the force dice relies upon, so it's actually more than the two paragraph it uses to describe the force dice. Which is no different from my system, because it also has other mechnics supporting, which also necessary to explain, so that its possible to understand the full scope of the system. 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

Ok so to answer your specific question to me @infiniteincarnate I would not do anything to adjust force point generation as I find combined skill checks + the conflict/ strain/ destiny point usage enough to allow me to do things given specific situations. For example the situation you gave based on them being afraid I can simply have the player make a combined force power and discipline or cool check every time they want to use a force power, if they do not succeed at the cool/ discipline check it doesnt matter how many force points they generate they fail to use the force as they fail to concentrate.... this allows me to add setbacks and the like without any added complexity or difficulty. So ultimately I do not feel the need to change how FP are generated because it doesn't actually do anything to help or hinder the stories or the mechanics of the game for me, but again I will never tell people what to do at their table if they want to use house rules, this is just not want that solves a problem I am having, nor is it making something simpler and easier for me to run. Happy gaming everyone :).

Edit: I am not sure exactly how  your system works it was a bit complicated for me to understand so sorry about that and if this part doesnt actually make sense with your system, but if the person can choose if they generate light or dark, I feel that is to easy to stay light, that is also why i like the die as it is right now because the dark side is tempting to my players. Of course if this is not how it works then I am simply misunderstanding a couple of the arguments and never mind this spot :).

Edit 2: Luke lifting the X-wing would likely be a combination of pips and discipline check, either one failing or not generating enough would prevent the lifting of the x-wing. Good chance of failure, but this is also a big story moment anyway. Setbacks added for self doubt destiny point flipped against Disc roll. Luke FR likely 3 at this point actually.

Edit 3: I do think you should make sure your players understand this system, get a chance to try it out and then give them an opportunity to choose whether they want this one or the normal one. This game is about having fun so what ever makes it more fun is the way you should do it. Dont be discouraged one way or another. :).

I will give you a proper response for this one later today as it's late here now (early morning but I haven't slept yet, so it's late). One thing I can quickly point out where the systems are different but my system would allow rather than disallow. First your way of handling fear and force point generation consists of two checks, where if one fails one doesn't get to attempt to generate force points - it disallows it. Where my system lets the fear check INTERACT with the force point generation, where the circumstancial dices can affect it negatatively and potentially cause intended light side points to be converted to dark side points - it allows force point generation, but the very important difference is that the fear INTERACTS with or AFFECTS  the point generation. I feel this is much better for the narrative and story, as the character's fear interacts with the character attempting to generate force points, and because dificulty dice is added to the check, light side points can be converted to dark side points, which most certainly reflects fear affecting the character while he or she is trying to use the force, even if light side points are still generated it definitely has affected the outcome. 

Makes sense? 

I'll try to better explain my system in my next post to you. 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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49 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

It's less than that, but my system also does a lot more than what the force dice does, and a lot more force dice cannot do, and further more min is also made so that it seamsless can integrate with other checks, not just skill checks. It can handle how the ENTIRE situation could affect the user while attempting to generate force points - which the force dice cannot handle inherently, my system can because it's made to be able to. You're more than welcome to think what you want, but you've also proven you don't understand it and what it's for and what it can do, all while you've been relentlessly bashing at it, instead offering constructive feedback, which is what I asked for.

Ps. To be fair, the book also uses several pages to describe mechanics that the force dice relies upon, so it's actually more than the two paragraph it uses to describe the force dice. Which is no different from my system, because it also has other mechnics supporting, which also necessary to explain, so that its possible to understand the full scope of the system. 

Like i said needlessly complicated. For no real benefit. Badically no one here sees anything but needless complication that will bog the game down. Bogging down the game decreases fun. 

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I will give you a proper response for this one later today as it's late here now (early morning but I haven't slept yet, so it's late). One thing I can quickly point out where the systems are different but my system would allow rather than disallow. First your way of handling fear and force point generation consists of two checks, where if one fails one doesn't get to attempt to generate force points - it disallows it. Where my system lets the fear check INTERACT with the force point generation, where the circumstancial dices can affect it negatatively and potentially cause intended light side points to be converted to dark side points - it allows force point generation, but the very important difference is that the fear INTERACTS with or AFFECTS  the point generation. I feel this is much better for the narrative and story, as the character's fear interacts with the character attempting to generate force points, and because dificulty dice is added to the check, light side points can be converted to dark side points, which most certainly reflects fear affecting the character while he or she is trying to use the force, even if light side points are still generated it definitely has affected the outcome. 

Makes sense? 

I'll try to better explain my system in my next post to you. 

It is only 1 check, it is a combined check.... I understand that you are making things generate force points differently, I am saying I dont need my things to do that because it is not helping the story in any meaningful way nor do I feel the need to change how force points are generated. The force is everywhere and as people gain more FR that is the mark that they are becoming more aware and more connected and better trained in the force. Fear will affect their ability to concentrate not their mastery of the force so I treat it that way. Fear IS interacting with their abilities, just not how FP are generated, rather it interacts with what they can and cant concentrate on. Check combined force power check on 280 and 281 and resisting force power checks on 283. Again I understand what you are trying to do different, but from my personal experience it isnt different ENOUGH. I can still narratively handle fear during my force power checks, failing a fear check automatically provides conflict as is which as far as I am concerned takes care of the "even light pips can still be dark" + the added set back means that all FP checks become a combined check where they roll discipline = the fear difficulty + 1 setback due to the failed fear check + any additional modifiers. THis is only for skills that weren't already combined checks, things like throwing an object from a range is already going to be dealing with upgrades from adversary + set back from fear which will already negatively affect the amount of damage the character does, but if they are FR 3 they are still Jedi master level is connection and mastery of the force and I am not going to take that away from them. I know your thing generates Force points differently, but personally I do not feel that is needed, nor do I feel it adds enough narratively for the amount of extra work it takes me to do. Again this is me personally, if you and your players want to use it, more power to you mate. If someone else reads this and loves the idea go for it. Me personally it is a pass for. System as is works great for what I need it to do. If I want narrative stuff I have combined and resisted checks, if I dont I can just let them roll the force die and get tempted by the dark side even for the most mundane of things.

Edited by tunewalker

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1 hour ago, Darzil said:

You won't convince people that your (relatively) complex solution is the answer to their problem if they don't see the problem.

I think that's been the core issue with both of his proposals is that they're both trying to shoehorn in a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist, and instead creates an entirely new set of problems that are unbalanced and thus even more problematic.

To loop back to my initial post in this thread, it seems his intent with these is to add needless complications or a rather simple set of rules simply for the sake of adding needless complications.

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11 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I get the feeling that autocorrect is how Sifo-Dyas came to be.

It's definitely how I dubbed Canderous Ordo as Cancerous Oreo in the Galaxy of Heroes game that I play.  Plus the name is just stupid anyway, so autocorrect actually improved it.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I think that's been the core issue with both of his proposals is that they're both trying to shoehorn in a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist, and instead creates an entirely new set of problems that are unbalanced and thus even more problematic.

To loop back to my initial post in this thread, it seems his intent with these is to add needless complications or a rather simple set of rules simply for the sake of adding needless complications.

And it is star wars. Realism is not really the goal. Heroic role playing is. This system takes away from that and adds math. 

Edited by Daeglan

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So, I have no problems with the existing Force system. And I agree that the OP's proposal is incredibly long. I don't have to read long posts. That said, I gather that the OP wants to tweak (replace) the Force system so that using the Force can fail. Therefore, they've introduced a Discipline-based system that opens up the possibility of failure thanks to the blank die faces and the introduction of difficulty dice.

Rather than this system, which seems really complex, what about the Genesys magic system? Just introduce 1–3 new Force skills (perhaps Control, Sense, and Alter), and have PCs roll those instead of the Force die to use the Force. Just a thought. I know others have already tried to home-brew such a system.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

So, I have no problems with the existing Force system. And I agree that the OP's proposal is incredibly long. I don't have to read long posts. That said, I gather that the OP wants to tweak (replace) the Force system so that using the Force can fail. Therefore, they've introduced a Discipline-based system that opens up the possibility of failure thanks to the blank die faces and the introduction of difficulty dice.

Rather than this system, which seems really complex, what about the Genesys magic system? Just introduce 1–3 new Force skills (perhaps Control, Sense, and Alter), and have PCs roll those instead of the Force die to use the Force. Just a thought. I know others have already tried to home-brew such a system.

But you can already fail based on rolling a blank die, or dark/light pips that you refuse to use.  The action you wanted to take, fails to happen.  So I don't see how this is any different from the baseline rules.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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3 hours ago, SavageBob said:

So, I have no problems with the existing Force system. And I agree that the OP's proposal is incredibly long. I don't have to read long posts. That said, I gather that the OP wants to tweak (replace) the Force system so that using the Force can fail. Therefore, they've introduced a Discipline-based system that opens up the possibility of failure thanks to the blank die faces and the introduction of difficulty dice.

Rather than this system, which seems really complex, what about the Genesys magic system? Just introduce 1–3 new Force skills (perhaps Control, Sense, and Alter), and have PCs roll those instead of the Force die to use the Force. Just a thought. I know others have already tried to home-brew such a system.

From my read, his proposed change does two things:

One, it gets rid of the Force dice entirely, due to being too "unreliable" (i.e. can't always get the result he wants)

Two, it effectively doubles the amount of Force points that a PC would have available to use without necessarily having to suffer Conflict than they'd get just from rolling Force dice, which ultimately makes using Force powers far more reliable as there's only a very slim chance that any reasonably competent Force user (Willpower 3, Discipline 1) isn't going to be able to succeed at most low-end uses of the Force.

As KungFuFerret said, there's already the chance of "failure" in the current system, as you can roll only black pips (or only white pips if you're a dark sider) and thus choose not to spend resources (destiny point/strain) to convert them into Force points.  The power does "activate," but nothing actually happens (beyond the PC perhaps looking a bit silly waving their hand around like they think they're a some kind of Jedi).

With just using the Genesys magic system, one thing that's quite likely tripping up a number of folks is that you largely have to sacrifice having several of the Force power/effects as not all them translate very well over to Genesys, at least not without introducing a whole slew of new power types to the point one begins to wonder why they switched over in the first place.  And even just saying, "well, if there's no direct correlation then it's a Utility effect" can be problematic, as I found when writing up a number of prestablished spells for use with Chris Witt's Harry Potter Genesys theme, and can easily lead to GMs having to make a plethora of on-the-fly determinations of how to address various Force effects without stepping into the realm of "the Force is no different than high-fantasy magic and can do whatever the story needs!" syndrome that plagued the majority of the Expanded Universe material from the 90's and early aughts.

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