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InfinityIncarnate

Force Power Manifestation System - An universal force point generation system.

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Greetings everyone.

I've tried to create a force point generation system that tries to mimic the force distribution of the force side dice, a system that is more in lieu of the already established dice pool system thats based on the character's abilities and skill, which in my opinion makes it possible to much better reflect a situation where various circumstances affects a force user is trying to use the force. The force dice, always ensures a success in manifesting the force, whether it be light or dark, there is always force points generated, which means a force user can always succeed as long as there are destiny point and strain available. However, from what I've experienced with SW, there are lots of cases where the force user is not able to "feel" or sense the force, which in my opinion would translate into a blank side on the dice, but a force dice does not have a blank side, nor is it ideal to use in my opinion as it in no way reflects the users actual capability in manifesting the force based on the character actual abilities, skills and experience. In short it means that one check can now specifically reflect the amount of points that can successfully be generated based on a character's abilities, skills, force rating and circumstance, where there is actually no other way of doing it, because doing seperate checks wouldn't affect the outcome of the force dice - it would always result in a positive amount of force points.

This may seem like a complex and time consuming system, but I don't really think so once one understands it and has learned to use it, and since it uses the game's dice pool system and mechanics, it should be fairly easy and straight forward to understand. Considering that this system tries to much better reflect the force user's abilities, skills, experience and actual circumstances, it opens up for a lot more avenues and depth, that the current system in my opinion isn't able to.
As the system isn't complely finished, it may need to be adjusted and tweaked, so I would very much like your constructive feedback.

I'll try to outline it as short, concise and to the point as possible, with a few examples along the way.

The system is as follows:

Force Power Manifestation - Force point generation:
Attempting to manifesting force points is to attempting to access the force, whether to feel, sense, control, alter or manipulate reality or the force through ones connection to the force.
Committing manifested force points to a force power means using the force.

  • The user is free to choose if it's light or dark side that is manifested.
  • The user can manifest up to x2 it's force rating, any points generated that exceeds the maximum are ignored when resolved.
  • The user is free to use either side, but is limited to use only ONE side of the force points generated.
  • The user suffers sided conflict points when commiting sided force points.
  • Force power is considered to be of the same side as the sided force points commited.
  • Dice pool is always without negative dices unless circumstances apply.

GM Specific:

  • Force power manifestation checks can be combined with other checks where appropriate - adding dice to the dice pool based on relevant circumstances - difficulty, challenge and setback dice where appropriate.
  • Decides on how any threats and failures are used, whenever possible - this effectively means in step 4.

IF ENFORCING USE OF DESTINY POINTS TO FLIP FORCE POINTS TO DESIRED SIDE, then user is not free to use either side and does not suffer sided conflict points:

  • The user is limited by force affiliation and morality.
    Light side users can only light side points.
    Grey side users can use both force sides, but always suffer sided conflict points.
    Dark side users can only use dark side points.
     
  • Add this to step 2's options to pick from:
    Convert all failures to successes; 1 - 1 ratio.
    User gains 1 conflict for each failure converted.
    User gains 1 strain for each success achieved.
    Force power is considered to be of the opposite side of the intended force points to be generated.

Note on sided conflict points:
Sided conflict uses a mechanic called force alignment to track sided force alignment.
When committing force points the force user gains sided conflict points and thus moves the force alignment in
the respective direction and respective amount, based on the amount and side used. The force alignment represents inner conflict progression during the session.
All sided conflict points are kept track of for mechanical purposes when resolving sided force alignment conflict, after the session resolve sided conflict points - see resolving the sided force alignment conflict.

STEPS 1-6 Summarized:

  1. Initial Step
  2. Assemble Force power check dice pool.
  3. Roll dice pool, assess the results and consider spending a destiny point if the character has spent one already.
  4. Resolve successes, advantages and threats.
  5. Resolve any failures.
  6. Resolve failure or success of the force power manifestation check.

STEP 1 - Initial Step

  • Force user declares action and which side of the force is to be manifested.
  • Force users declares if focus is used - Focus costs ONE maneauver and grants an additional boost dice.
    Note: Focus can only be done once per turn.
  • Force Power Compensation Dice:
    When force user can achieve less than the maximum amount of force points with ability + skill than with the force dice:
    Add two boost dices for every two force points the force user would be short of under the normal system.
  • GM determines if the check  needs to be a combined check and if is a circumstancial check.

STEP 2 - Assemble Force power check dice pool.

  • Appropritate Ability + Skill + Any force power compensation dice.
    Note: Default is Willpower + Discipline + Any force power compensation dice.
     
  • Add circumstancial dices.
     Add any difficulty or challenge dice as needed.
     Add any boost or setback dice as needed.
    (for instance setback dice for disorientation)
     
  • Add difficulty dice when
    In combat.
    User has taken 50% or more WT damage (in total).
    User has taken 50% or more strain damage (in total).
    IF user is afraid, then add fear difficulty dice.

Step 3 - Assemble Force power check dice pool:

Roll dice pool, assess the results and consider spending a destiny point if one hasn't been already, to do either of the following:

  • Convert advantage points to successes - 1 to 1 ratio.
    User gains 1 conflict for each advantage converted to a success
    User gains strain equal to the amount of advantage converted.
     
  • Remove all threats!
    User gains 1 conflict for each threat converted to an advantage.
    User gains 1 strain equal to the amount threat converted converted.
     
  • Remove all failures!
    User gains 2 conflict for each failure removed.
    User gains 1 strain for each failure removed.

Step 4 - Resolve successes, advantages and threats:

Successes: 1 success converts to 1 INTENDED side force point generated.
Triumph and dispair automatically cancel each other out.
Advantage and threat automatically cancel each other out, any remaining can be used for the following:

  • Advantage:
    2 Points converts to 1 sided force point.
    2 Points to recover 1 strain.
     
  • Threat:
    2 points to cause 1 strain.
    2 points convert to 1 failure.

Step 5 - Resolve any failures:

  • 1 failure converts one INTENDED sided force point to the opposite.

Step 6 - Resolve failure or success of the force power manifestation check:

Cancel any remaining force with failures - 1 to 1 ratio.

  • The check is considered failed if any failures remain after cancelling remaining force points:
    The user suffers an amount of sided conflict equal to the number of failures that remain when the roll has been resolved.
    1 strain for each failure.
     
  • The check is considered a successful if any sided force points that remain AFTER all failures has been resolved, and remaining sided force points can be committed to a force power.
    The user gains sided conflict based on the amount of sided force points committed.
    If the force user has a force side affiliation (light or dark), then the double amount of sided conflict is suffered when the force affiliation side force points are committed.
     
  • Adjust values:
    All conflict, sided conflict and strain suffered during this check.

 

Example #1

User has Willpower 2, no relevant skill and a force rating of 1.
This means that a maximum of 2 force points can be generated.
The user is conducting a practice session and is in no danger immediate danger, but isn't specifically focusing.
The user is attempting to manifest light side points.

User has a base dice pool of 2 ability dice:

User gets 2 successes - which means two light side points have been generated.

Example #2 - This example assumes that it's enforced that it requires use of destiny points to flip force points to desired side, as that is how it's handled in the core rules.

The same user as above, though this time the user is more trained and disciplined, willpower of 3, discipline of 1, a force rating of 4.
This means that a maximum of 6 force points can be generated - this means that the user is 2 two point short when compared to the normal system (2 boost dices are added to the dice pool).
The user is trying to save his allies who're in a collapsing cave, fearing their loss of life - counts as moderately afraid. (two difficulty dice are added to the dice pool.)
The user is spending a manveuer to focus (1 boost dice is added to the dice pool)
The user is also disoriented and at 50% WT. (1 difficulty and 1 setback dice is added)
The GM decideds to upgrade 1 difficulty dice to a challenge dice.
The user is attempting to manifest light side points

User has a base dice pool of 2 ability + 1 proficiency + 2 difficulty + 1 challenge + 3 boost + 1 setback dice:

User gets:

  • 4 successes
  • 2 advantage
  • 3 failures
  • 4 threats

The user considers the situation, and decides to spend a destiny point, and opts to convert all failures to successes and suffers 3 strain and 3 conflict. (Step 3)
This converts all 3 failures to 3 successes, for total 7 successes (force power is now considered the opposite of the intended: light -> dark).

2 Threat points automatically cancels 2 advantage points (2 advantage points left.)
2 Threat points is used to cause 1 strain in user.
7 successes converts to 7 light side force points.

This means the user can commit 7 light side points, and has suffered 4 strain and 3 conflict, but the force power is considered dark.

 

.: NOTES :.

  • Force Power Compensation Dice / Boost Mechanic
    When force user can achieve less than maximum with ability/skill check than with force point dice:
    Add two boost dice for every two force points the force user would be short of under the normal system.
    Generic examples:
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 2 can only achieve 4, so 4 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 3 can only achieve 6, so 2 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 3 + skill 1 can achieve 8, so 0 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
     
  • Sided force points belong to the specific side of the force used.
    A very important, there is a important difference conflict and sided conflict:
    Conflict is resolved as normal after the session.
    Sided conflict is specifically used to resolve sided force alignment conflict.
     
  • Destiny points can also affect the dices in the dicepool, positively and negatively - Dice can be upgraded or downgraded, which includes, ability and difficulty dice.

Force alignment:
Sided force alignment conflict happens when at least one side of the force alignment has points.
Light is considered to be positive, dark is considered to be negative, as such they affect morality respectively.
Normal conflict is resolved immediately after sided conflict has been resolved.

Resolving sided force alignment conflict:
Roll a d10 for both sides and add the results respective, then substract the two results from each other (lowest from the highest), the resultning number will be the morality adjustment value.

Example #3
5 light sided conflict points vs. 1 dark side conflict points.
Light side rolls a 1, which is a total of 6.
Dark side rolls a 5, which is a total of 6.
The morality adjustment in this case is 0, no adjustment takes place.

Example #4
5 light sided conflict points vs. 1 dark side conflict points.
Light side rolls a 3, which is a total of 8.
Dark side rolls a 10, which is a total of 11.
The morality adjustment in this case is 3, in favor of the dark side, which means the morality score is decreased by 3.


In conclusion
I feel this is a much more capable system of reflecting a force user attempting to use the force in any situation with a variable amount of circumstance than just using the force dice. Furthermore, the system is also much more tied to reflecting how the character's abilities, skills, experience and force rating affect the outcome of the user attempting to use the force, than just using the force dice will reflect. It also gives the player and gm a chance to more directly affect the outcome, it terms of deciding on what to convert the various points into, like converting threat into strain or failure, or advantage into recovering strain. It actually makes it uncertain to use when there are circumstances affecting the force users situation, even with higher levels of force rating, because the circumstances tends to scale as well - like one whos more powerful usually meet tougher, more dangerous or more difficult situations to deal with. It also reflects that one needs to actually train various aspects of the user, ability, skill and force rating, not to mention the actual force powers as well. Furthermore, this system can also fairly easy handle the issue with force users who falls in the grey area of morality and force use, as the system doesn't discriminate as it's neutral and other mechanics can be handled to specifically handle the key elements of those types of users, and already inherently is able to handle them quite well, as it has moved away from being able to always use the force without any negative side effects, as there will be inherently when using this system, and more can be added to better suit or reflect the those types of force users. For one, it's actually possible to fail, secondly if one fails there are actual consequences for failing, but it also adds the possibility of the force user being able regain strain as a result of using the force, but at the same time, in can also become more costly to attempt use the force, even when one succeeds it's possible to suffer strain, conflict and it directly affecting morality. And as far as I understand, conflict and morality are very important mechanics for force users, which is why I tried to add mechanics in this system that support this and work with whats already in the game - namely conflict and morality.

I'm looking forward to your constructive feedback.

PS. Absol197, you're more than welcome to do some numbers on this one if you feel like it, it would be appreciated, especially since I tried making this mimic the force dice, well at least when it's without any circumstancial dices being added. So it would be good with some comparative numbers in relation to the force dice probabilities. Thanks in advance.

 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Formatting + wording.

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So the first and most important question that needs to be asked is "what are you trying to accomplish with this?"

It adds a lot of extra work to what is currently a fairly simple process, and is reminiscent of D&D spellcasters (particularly in pre-4e editions) where they have to do a fair bit of on-the-spot math to figure out the effects of their better spells.  So on first pass, it feels very much like making things more complicated simply for the sake of making it more complicated, when the core systems of the entire game is trying to avoid excessive complications and keep the story moving.

If you're intending to make overall Force usage more powerful and easier to access without necessarily having to dip into using dark side pips, then I'd suggest just drop the whole "roll the Force dice" and just treat a Force user PC as having a number of Force points equal to their Force Rating plus one-half Willpower (rounded down).  It has the desired effect of Force usage being much more reliable, but without slowing the game down.  That said, I'd suggest taking a note from Genesys, and for every Force point utilized beyond their Force Rating, the Force user either suffers 1 strain (light side) or 1 Conflict (tapping into the dark side).

For instance, a PC with Force Rating 1 and Willpower 3 would have access to 2 Force points when activating a Force power, but if she want to use that second Force point, she'll need to either suffer a point of strain or a point of Conflict.  This reflects that younger/inexperienced Force users tend to struggle with performing grander feats of the Force, and that the dark side is the quicker and easier path to power (Conflict isn't nearly as steep a penalty as strain for most characters), but isn't necessarily more powerful.

With committing Force dice, what happens there is the PC still lowers their effective Force Rating, which means they don't have as many Force points available when activating a power.  So to go to the sample PC with Force Rating 1 and Willpower 3, let's say she's got the Sense power with the defensive control upgrade.  On her current action, she commits her Force die to Sense, but on her next action she needs to use the Move basic power to grab a silhouette 0 object within short range.  As her effective Force Rating is 0 due to the committed Force die, she only gets the 1 Force point  from her Willpower, but will either have to suffer strain or take a point of Conflict to use it.  Since she's only got the one Force point, she can't activate any range or strength or magnitude upgrades she might have purchased, but then again under normal rules she wouldn't be able to use Move at all since she has no Force dice to roll.

To allow for dramatic uses of the Force, where a novice accomplishes a feat that would be well outside their league, the PC can choose to flip a Destiny Point which then doubles the amount of Force points they'd have available to them, but also doubles the strain/conflict suffered from using those additional Force points, as such extraordinary effects take a toll on the user.

Now if you want to begin going the route of Force Unleashed levels of Force using nuttiness, then PCs get Force points equal to Force Rating + full Willpower, and they don't need to suffer strain or Conflict to use their full allotment of Force points.  Conflict would only be earned for their actions, but the bar for what does and doesn't earn Conflict when using the Force should be set a lot lower, such as using the Force to attack and cause damage (be it wounds or strain) earns at lease one point of Conflict, as would using Influence to cause negative emotions, while inherently dark side effects such as Harm and Unleash would earn Conflict equal to the number of Force points used.  Counterbalance would be that any use of a Force power (apart from committing Force dice) would cost 2 strain, to be paid after the check is resolved (much how Genesys handles the cost of casting spells, which means that any advantages generated as part of what would be a combined check in the default system can't be used to pay off the cost of activating the power).

Back to your suggested alternative method, one thing that leaps out as a warning flag is the reliance upon Discipline, which is already a key skill for Force users, especially for resisting Force-based effects.  By making it the "casting skill" for using Force powers, you make that skill even more important than it already is, and giving those careers and specs that offer Discipline as a career skill a leg up over those specs/careers that don't.  It might be best to simply create a new skill tied to Willpower, but make it so that the skill by default isn't a career skill for anyone, or that it's a career skill for anyone that starts out with a F&D career if you want Force usage to be more effective.

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7 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Greetings everyone.

I've tried to create a force point generation system that tries to mimic the force distribution of the force side dice, a system that is more in lieu of the already established dice pool system thats based on the character's abilities and skill, which in my opinion makes it possible to much better reflect a situation where various circumstances affects a force user is trying to use the force. The force dice, always ensures a success in manifesting the force, whether it be light or dark, there is always force points generated, which means a force user can always succeed as long as there are destiny point and strain available. However, from what I've experienced with SW, there are lots of cases where the force user is not able to "feel" or sense the force, which in my opinion would translate into a blank side on the dice, but a force dice does not have a blank side, nor is it ideal to use in my opinion as it in no way reflects the users actual capability in manifesting the force based on the character actual abilities, skills and experience. In short it means that one check can now specifically reflect the amount of points that can successfully be generated based on a character's abilities, skills, force rating and circumstance, where there is actually no other way of doing it, because doing seperate checks wouldn't affect the outcome of the force dice - it would always result in a positive amount of force points.

This may seem like a complex and time consuming system, but I don't really think so once one understands it and has learned to use it, and since it uses the game's dice pool system and mechanics, it should be fairly easy and straight forward to understand. Considering that this system tries to much better reflect the force user's abilities, skills, experience and actual circumstances, it opens up for a lot more avenues and depth, that the current system in my opinion isn't able to.
As the system isn't complely finished, it may need to be adjusted and tweaked, so I would very much like your constructive feedback.

I'll try to outline it as short, concise and to the point as possible, with a few examples along the way.

The system is as follows:

Force Power Manifestation - Force point generation:
Attempting to manifesting force points is to attempting to access the force, whether to feel, sense, control, alter or manipulate reality or the force through ones connection to the force.
Committing manifested force points to a force power means using the force.

  • The user is free to choose if it's light or dark side that is manifested.
  • The user can manifest up to x2 it's force rating, any points generated that exceeds the maximum are ignored when resolved.
  • The user is free to use either side, but is limited to use only ONE side of the force points generated.
  • The user suffers sided conflict points when commiting sided force points.
  • Force power is considered to be of the same side as the sided force points commited.
  • Dice pool is always without negative dices unless circumstances apply.

GM Specific:

  • Force power manifestation checks can be combined with other checks where appropriate - adding dice to the dice pool based on relevant circumstances - difficulty, challenge and setback dice where appropriate.
  • Decides on how any threats and failures are used, whenever possible - this effectively means in step 4.

IF ENFORCING USE OF DESTINY POINTS TO FLIP FORCE POINTS TO DESIRED SIDE, then user is not free to use either side and does not suffer sided conflict points:

  • The user is limited by force affiliation and morality.
    Light side users can only light side points.
    Grey side users can use both force sides, but always suffer sided conflict points.
    Dark side users can only use dark side points.
     
  • Add this to step 2's options to pick from:
    Convert all failures to successes; 1 - 1 ratio.
    User gains 1 conflict for each failure converted.
    User gains 1 strain for each success achieved.
    Force power is considered to be of the opposite side of the intended force points to be generated.

Note on sided conflict points:
Sided conflict uses a mechanic called force alignment to track sided force alignment.
When committing force points the force user gains sided conflict points and thus moves the force alignment in
the respective direction and respective amount, based on the amount and side used. The force alignment represents inner conflict progression during the session.
All sided conflict points are kept track of for mechanical purposes when resolving sided force alignment conflict, after the session resolve sided conflict points - see resolving the sided force alignment conflict.

STEPS 1-6 Summarized:

  1. Initial Step
  2. Assemble Force power check dice pool.
  3. Roll dice pool, assess the results and consider spending a destiny point if the character has spent one already.
  4. Resolve successes, advantages and threats.
  5. Resolve any failures.
  6. Resolve failure or success of the force power manifestation check.

STEP 1 - Initial Step

  • Force user declares action and which side of the force is to be manifested.
  • Force users declares if focus is used - Focus costs ONE maneauver and grants an additional boost dice.
    Note: Focus can only be done once per turn.
  • Force Power Compensation Dice:
    When force user can achieve less than the maximum amount of force points with ability + skill than with the force dice:
    Add two boost dices for every two force points the force user would be short of under the normal system.
  • GM determines if the check  needs to be a combined check and if is a circumstancial check.

STEP 2 - Assemble Force power check dice pool.

  • Appropritate Ability + Skill + Any force power compensation dice.
    Note: Default is Willpower + Discipline + Any force power compensation dice.
     
  • Add circumstancial dices.
     Add any difficulty or challenge dice as needed.
     Add any boost or setback dice as needed.
    (for instance setback dice for disorientation)
     
  • Add difficulty dice when
    In combat.
    User has taken 50% or more WT damage (in total).
    User has taken 50% or more strain damage (in total).
    IF user is afraid, then add fear difficulty dice.

Step 3 - Assemble Force power check dice pool:

Roll dice pool, assess the results and consider spending a destiny point if one hasn't been already, to do either of the following:

  • Convert advantage points to successes - 1 to 1 ratio.
    User gains 1 conflict for each advantage converted to a success
    User gains strain equal to the amount of advantage converted.
     
  • Remove all threats!
    User gains 1 conflict for each threat converted to an advantage.
    User gains 1 strain equal to the amount threat converted converted.
     
  • Remove all failures!
    User gains 2 conflict for each failure removed.
    User gains 1 strain for each failure removed.

Step 4 - Resolve successes, advantages and threats:

Successes: 1 success converts to 1 INTENDED side force point generated.
Triumph and dispair automatically cancel each other out.
Advantage and threat automatically cancel each other out, any remaining can be used for the following:

  • Advantage:
    2 Points converts to 1 sided force point.
    2 Points to recover 1 strain.
     
  • Threat:
    2 points to cause 1 strain.
    2 points convert to 1 failure.

Step 5 - Resolve any failures:

  • 1 failure converts one INTENDED sided force point to the opposite.

Step 6 - Resolve failure or success of the force power manifestation check:

Cancel any remaining force with failures - 1 to 1 ratio.

  • The check is considered failed if any failures remain after cancelling remaining force points:
    The user suffers an amount of sided conflict equal to the number of failures that remain when the roll has been resolved.
    1 strain for each failure.
     
  • The check is considered a successful if any sided force points that remain AFTER all failures has been resolved, and remaining sided force points can be committed to a force power.
    The user gains sided conflict based on the amount of sided force points committed.
    If the force user has a force side affiliation (light or dark), then the double amount of sided conflict is suffered when the force affiliation side force points are committed.
     
  • Adjust values:
    All conflict, sided conflict and strain suffered during this check.

 

Example #1

User has Willpower 2, no relevant skill and a force rating of 1.
This means that a maximum of 2 force points can be generated.
The user is conducting a practice session and is in no danger immediate danger, but isn't specifically focusing.
The user is attempting to manifest light side points.

User has a base dice pool of 2 ability dice:

User gets 2 successes - which means two light side points have been generated.

Example #2 - This example assumes that it's enforced that it requires use of destiny points to flip force points to desired side, as that is how it's handled in the core rules.

The same user as above, though this time the user is more trained and disciplined, willpower of 3, discipline of 1, a force rating of 4.
This means that a maximum of 6 force points can be generated - this means that the user is 2 two point short when compared to the normal system (2 boost dices are added to the dice pool).
The user is trying to save his allies who're in a collapsing cave, fearing their loss of life - counts as moderately afraid. (two difficulty dice are added to the dice pool.)
The user is spending a manveuer to focus (1 boost dice is added to the dice pool)
The user is also disoriented and at 50% WT. (1 difficulty and 1 setback dice is added)
The GM decideds to upgrade 1 difficulty dice to a challenge dice.
The user is attempting to manifest light side points

User has a base dice pool of 2 ability + 1 proficiency + 2 difficulty + 1 challenge + 3 boost + 1 setback dice:

User gets:

  • 4 successes
  • 2 advantage
  • 3 failures
  • 4 threats

The user considers the situation, and decides to spend a destiny point, and opts to convert all failures to successes and suffers 3 strain and 3 conflict. (Step 3)
This converts all 3 failures to 3 successes, for total 7 successes (force power is now considered the opposite of the intended: light -> dark).

2 Threat points automatically cancels 2 advantage points (2 advantage points left.)
2 Threat points is used to cause 1 strain in user.
7 successes converts to 7 light side force points.

This means the user can commit 7 light side points, and has suffered 4 strain and 3 conflict, but the force power is considered dark.

 

.: NOTES :.

  • Force Power Compensation Dice / Boost Mechanic
    When force user can achieve less than maximum with ability/skill check than with force point dice:
    Add two boost dice for every two force points the force user would be short of under the normal system.
    Generic examples:
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 2 can only achieve 4, so 4 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 3 can only achieve 6, so 2 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
    FR 4 can achieve 8 FP, Ability 3 + skill 1 can achieve 8, so 0 boost dice are added to the dice pool.
     
  • Sided force points belong to the specific side of the force used.
    A very important, there is a important difference conflict and sided conflict:
    Conflict is resolved as normal after the session.
    Sided conflict is specifically used to resolve sided force alignment conflict.
     
  • Destiny points can also affect the dices in the dicepool, positively and negatively - Dice can be upgraded or downgraded, which includes, ability and difficulty dice.

Force alignment:
Sided force alignment conflict happens when at least one side of the force alignment has points.
Light is considered to be positive, dark is considered to be negative, as such they affect morality respectively.
Normal conflict is resolved immediately after sided conflict has been resolved.

Resolving sided force alignment conflict:
Roll a d10 for both sides and add the results respective, then substract the two results from each other (lowest from the highest), the resultning number will be the morality adjustment value.

Example #3
5 light sided conflict points vs. 1 dark side conflict points.
Light side rolls a 1, which is a total of 6.
Dark side rolls a 5, which is a total of 6.
The morality adjustment in this case is 0, no adjustment takes place.

Example #4
5 light sided conflict points vs. 1 dark side conflict points.
Light side rolls a 3, which is a total of 8.
Dark side rolls a 10, which is a total of 11.
The morality adjustment in this case is 3, in favor of the dark side, which means the morality score is decreased by 3.


In conclusion
I feel this is a much more capable system of reflecting a force user attempting to use the force in any situation with a variable amount of circumstance than just using the force dice. Furthermore, the system is also much more tied to reflecting how the character's abilities, skills, experience and force rating affect the outcome of the user attempting to use the force, than just using the force dice will reflect. It also gives the player and gm a chance to more directly affect the outcome, it terms of deciding on what to convert the various points into, like converting threat into strain or failure, or advantage into recovering strain. It actually makes it uncertain to use when there are circumstances affecting the force users situation, even with higher levels of force rating, because the circumstances tends to scale as well - like one whos more powerful usually meet tougher, more dangerous or more difficult situations to deal with. It also reflects that one needs to actually train various aspects of the user, ability, skill and force rating, not to mention the actual force powers as well. Furthermore, this system can also fairly easy handle the issue with force users who falls in the grey area of morality and force use, as the system doesn't discriminate as it's neutral and other mechanics can be handled to specifically handle the key elements of those types of users, and already inherently is able to handle them quite well, as it has moved away from being able to always use the force without any negative side effects, as there will be inherently when using this system, and more can be added to better suit or reflect the those types of force users. For one, it's actually possible to fail, secondly if one fails there are actual consequences for failing, but it also adds the possibility of the force user being able regain strain as a result of using the force, but at the same time, in can also become more costly to attempt use the force, even when one succeeds it's possible to suffer strain, conflict and it directly affecting morality. And as far as I understand, conflict and morality are very important mechanics for force users, which is why I tried to add mechanics in this system that support this and work with whats already in the game - namely conflict and morality.

I'm looking forward to your constructive feedback.

PS. Absol197, you're more than welcome to do some numbers on this one if you feel like it, it would be appreciated, especially since I tried making this mimic the force dice, well at least when it's without any circumstancial dices being added. So it would be good with some comparative numbers in relation to the force dice probabilities. Thanks in advance.

 

Too long didnt read. WAY TOO needlessly complicated.

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7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So the first and most important question that needs to be asked is "what are you trying to accomplish with this?"

I thought I had made this quite clear in the post, but apparently not. I'm trying to accomblish what the force dice does but also what it cannot do inherently because of what it is, which is reflecting a force user attempting to generate force points based on the character's actual abilities, skills, force rating, situation and circumstances - and more specifically how they interact with each other during the check. Personally I find that the force dice, is very disconnected from the character and isn't able to reflect how the character's abilities, skills, force rating, situation and circumstances affect the outcome force points generated - the only thing the force dice can directly reflect is how strong one's connection to the force is (the force user's actual force rating) but not how well the character individually is able to use it is based on the users abilities, skills, force rating, situation and circumstances - and this part is moreso why I feel the force dice feels very disconnected from the character, even from a narrative stand point. I'm not trying to make it more reliable or more powerful, and in fact it's less reliable than the force dice, as ability, proficiency and boost dice all have blanks, and further more when circumstancial dice are added it makes it possible to even get the opposite of what you intended to generate, and you can even outright fail with more consequences added as a result, and that is even when the user can decide on whats the intended sided force point to be generated. Furthermore, had I tried to make it more powerful, I wouldn't have capped the amount of force points that can be generated, at the 2x force rating. I also added a variant to really emphasize on how the force dice is intended, the part about if it's enforced to use destiny points to flip intended force points to desired side.

To give a few examples:
#1 - Force dice.
A force user with a willpower of 2 and a force rating of 2, who's in combat and is minally afraid.
Here the user will use two force dice, and as due to FR2, the maximum potential force points are 4.
The situation and circumstances, in this case combat and that the user is minimally afraid, has no potential impact on the force points generated.

#2 - My system above.
A force user with a willpower of 2 and a force rating of 2, who's in combat and is minally afraid.
Here the user will use two ability dice and two difficulty dice, and due to FR2, the maximum potential force points are 4.
Combat and that the user is minimally afraid directly affects the potential outcome of the force points generated.

I hope this further explains what I'm trying to accomplish and what differences there are between my system and the force dice.

7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

If you're intending to make overall Force usage more powerful and easier to access without necessarily having to dip into using dark side pips, then I'd suggest just drop the whole "roll the Force dice" and just treat a Force user PC as having a number of Force points equal to their Force Rating plus one-half Willpower (rounded down).  It has the desired effect of Force usage being much more reliable, but without slowing the game down.  That said, I'd suggest taking a note from Genesys, and for every Force point utilized beyond their Force Rating, the Force user either suffers 1 strain (light side) or 1 Conflict (tapping into the dark side).

As I mentioned above, I'm not trying to make the force user or force usage more powerful, however with my system it's only ever truly more reliable when there is no resistance - no circumstancial dice, because it's the circumstancial dice (setback, difficulty and challenge dice) that allows for the interaction between success and failures, advantage and threat, triumph and dispair, which is what allows for the user to get the opposite of what is intended, to succeed but with a cost, or to fail with more consequences. For the most part there will always be some measure of internal resistance/struggle as the force will for the most part be used in "live" situations, combat or not , meaning there will be actual live circumstancial resistance when attempting to use the force (generate force points), which translates into that there will for the most part always be circumstancial dices. Since it's the GM who's the final arbiter on the gravity of the situation and what circumstancial dice the sitatuation calls for. Which I've tried to make more apparent in the above example in this post, but to further reflect how the gravity of a situation can really affect the amount of force point generated, light or dark.

#3 - Force dice.
A force user with a willpower of 2 and a force rating of 2, who's in combat (engaged in melee), wounded (50% WT), disoritented, is very afraid and is facing an adversary who's known to be very dangerous (6 difficulty + 1 setback dice + 2 difficulty upgrades).
Here the user will use 2 force dice, and as due to FR2, the maximum potential force points are 4, the above circumstancial dice are ignored as they're not used with the force dice.
The situation and circumstances, in this case engaged in combat (2 difficulty), wounded (1 difficulty), disoriented (1 setback), user is very afraid (3 difficulty) and the user is facing an adversary who's known to be very dangerous (2 dice upgrades) - has no potential impact on the force points generated, it can go either way and all the way.

#4 - My system above.
A force user with a willpower of 2 and a force rating of 2, who's in combat (engaged in melee), wounded (50% WT), disoritented, is very afraid and is facing an adversary who's known to be very dangerous (6 difficulty + 1 setback dice + 2 difficulty upgrades).
Here the user will use 2 ability dice, 1 setback, 4 difficulty and 2 challenge dice, and due to FR2, the maximum potential force points are 4.
Maximum potential amount of successes are 4, and the amount of potential failures are 13, and thus the user might have to use a destiny point to help alter the outcome to be a successful one.
Here it's very apparent how much exactly the circumstancial dice pool can affect the outcome of force points generate, even with an intended side to be generated.
If we analyze this a bit more, we'll see that if the outcome was the exact above, albeit it being very unlikely, the user would outright fail unless a destiny point is spent, as there would be a surplus of 5 failures. As 4 of the 13 would be spent to convert the intended force points to the opposite, and 4 more to cancel them out, leaving the surplus of 5 failures. The point being, that the situation could directly impact the potential outcome of the force points generated, light or dark.

7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Back to your suggested alternative method, one thing that leaps out as a warning flag is the reliance upon Discipline, which is already a key skill for Force users, especially for resisting Force-based effects.  By making it the "casting skill" for using Force powers, you make that skill even more important than it already is, and giving those careers and specs that offer Discipline as a career skill a leg up over those specs/careers that don't.  It might be best to simply create a new skill tied to Willpower, but make it so that the skill by default isn't a career skill for anyone, or that it's a career skill for anyone that starts out with a F&D career if you want Force usage to be more effective. 

Yes, I'm actually aware of this, however I originally designed the system around being universal, just as the the dice pool system is in the game and I did intend the system to be more open ended in this regard, so that any ability and skill that would make sense to use in the given situation, when trying to generate force points. Hence also why I did write, ability + skill, and made note of the default used, to indicate my intention with it. So instead of creating a new skill used for "casting", I used whats already in the system and would be the most likely to be used, but given the fact that wanted it to remain open ended I left it that way, but with a default.

To give an example of what I had in mind.

#5
A force user with a presence of 3, coercion of 1 and a force rating of 2, who's attempting to use the force to coerce someone, however the user is moderately afraid of not succeeding the attempt, thus 2 difficulty, other party members have already tried to coerce the target, thus 1 setback dice.
Here the user will use 2 ability, 1 profiency, 1 setback and 2 difficulty dice.
There potentially are: 6 successes and 5 failures, all dice capable of rolling blanks. The force points generated should be used on powers like influence or perhaps talents that deals specifically with coercion.
This reflects how the force universally interacts with the users abilities and skills, and more importantly it gives an indication on how the system could also be used.

I hope this post paints a better and more accurate picture of what I intent to achieve with this system. However I do think you suggest some interesting ways to handle use of the force, and obviously more simple than what I suggested, but then again, they don't do what wanted the system to be able to do. Like I said, it's not intended to make force usage more reliable or more powerful for that matter, and it's most certainly intended that the gm add appropritate circumstancial dice, whenever the situation calls for it.

Otherwise, it might be appropriate to create several skills that relate to "casting" - something down the lines of what is seen in other SW systems, like for instance in the d20 SW, there are feats like sense, control and alter, if they were made as skills instead, they could reflect how you intend to use the force, like do you seek control using. Although, if possible I think it's better to try and use the skills that is already in the system.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Added more.

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1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Yeah. Super meedlessly complicated

I don't find it to be needlessly complicated, as its trying to do something that the force dice inherently cannot handle and thus reflect, furthermore the system makes it possible to much more accurately handle and reflect how the circumstances in any given situation affect the force user's ability to generate force points, which the force dice cannot do. Furthermore, the force dice seems very disconnected from the character's abilities, skills and actual circumstances. So you may think that it's complicated, but it's not really that much more complicated than handling the normal dice system, as that also has on the spot math that has to be done, points that needs to be spent, like advantage and threat being spent on various elements. Like I said, it may at first seem like a lot and seem very complicated, but in reality it's really not that complicated when it comes to actual use.

But, didn't you say that you didn't read it since it was too long? Just because the post is long doesn't make the system complicated.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I don't find it to be needlessly complicated, as its trying to do something that the force dice inherently cannot handle and thus reflect, furthermore the system makes it possible to much more accurately handle and reflect how the circumstances in any given situation affect the force user's ability to generate force points, which the force dice cannot do. Furthermore, the force dice seems very disconnected from the character's abilities, skills and actual circumstances. So you may think that it's complicated, but it's not really that much more complicated than handling the normal dice system, as that also has on the spot math that has to be done, points that needs to be spent, like advantage and threat being spent on various elements. Like I said, it may at first seem like a lot and seem very complicated, but in reality it's really not that complicated when it comes to actual use.

Yes, and? There is a reason why the Force rules are that way, and it is to simplify the process of using the Force. Your system is overly complex and places more and more complications on what is specifically intended to be a very quick and simple process. As such it is overly complicated for this game system. 

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11 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I don't find it to be needlessly complicated, as its trying to do something that the force dice inherently cannot handle and thus reflect, furthermore the system makes it possible to much more accurately handle and reflect how the circumstances in any given situation affect the force user's ability to generate force points, which the force dice cannot do. Furthermore, the force dice seems very disconnected from the character's abilities, skills and actual circumstances. So you may think that it's complicated, but it's not really that much more complicated than handling the normal dice system, as that also has on the spot math that has to be done, points that needs to be spent, like advantage and threat being spent on various elements. Like I said, it may at first seem like a lot and seem very complicated, but in reality it's really not that complicated when it comes to actual use.

But, didn't you say that you didn't read it since it was too long? Just because the post is long doesn't make the system complicated.

Like i said way over complicated. You do what you like. But I doubt you will find many takers here.

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29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and? There is a reason why the Force rules are that way, and it is to simplify the process of using the Force. Your system is overly complex and places more and more complications on what is specifically intended to be a very quick and simple process. As such it is overly complicated for this game system. 

Sure, it's complex and complicated compared to the normal use of the force dice - which is obvious as the force dice is extremely simplified, but when compared to the normal dice pool system, it's not that much more complicated.
When you make it quick and simple, it's at the cost of something, like potentially losing compatibility with the rest of the core system. My system is compatible with the normal dice pool system, but mimics that what the force dice does, while also being much more connected with the character's abilities, skills, circumstances of the character's current situation. I also think it's important to consider what my system is actually capable of considering what it is and what it tries to accomplish.

Do you have any constructive suggestions to improve it or simplify, other than to bash at it? I was asking for constructive feedback, telling me that it's complicated and complex compared to the force dice, doesn't tell me something I don't already know, because that one is a given.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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11 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Sure, it's complex and complicated compared to the normal use of the force dice - which is obvious as the force dice is extremely simplified, but when compared to the normal dice pool system, it's not that much more complicated.
When you make it quick and simple, it's at the cost of something, like potentially losing compatibility with the rest of the core system. My system is compatible with the normal dice pool system, but mimics that what the force dice does, while also being much more connected with the character's abilities, skills, circumstances of the character's current situation. I also think it's important to consider what my system is actually capable of considering what it is and what it tries to accomplish.

Do you have any constructive suggestions to improve it or simplify, other than to bash at it? I was asking for constructive feedback, telling me that it's complicated and complex compared to the force dice, doesn't tell me something I don't already know, because that one is a given.

I also said needlessly complicated. There is no real benefit to your system. Unless bogging things down is your goal.

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I hope you enjoy your system I am not going to tell you or your players what to do with it. I personally will not be using it because any time I borrow or use house rules I first ask 3 questions.

The first: Is it more or less complex then we already have? if yes then the answer to the next 2 questions must either both be yes or one must be a HUGE yes.

The second: Is this rule fixing a problem I am having with the system? In this case the answer is no, force users have not been too powerful for my group by comparison to the non-force sensitives so I don't feel the need to lower reliability, I have had no issue with having skills, talents or Force Rating change how much a person can use the force or how much they can do with the force. Each force power has it's own talent tree meaning often times there are more talents for my groups force users than there are for the non-force users. Force rating has a very real and visual effect on the number of pips that are generated both of the kind my players want and the kind they don't want, and finally since I run the game any force power can become a combined check at my whim so skills are not something I feel my players are bypassing nor can they bypass situations as situations are the biggest and most common reason FOR said combined power checks. Examples again include using discipline opposed by resilience for the move power, discipline opposed by discipline for mind altering powers, and even coordination for using enhance to force leap depending on where they are leaping to and the situation they are in (and ya they sometimes use the extra pips in conjunction with the coordination, but they have to generate those extra pips to do so, which even at 2 FR they do not always get even with using the dark side). Maybe even Vigilance or perception, or discipline with sense depending on how they are using it.

And finally the third: Can this add something narratively to my group that I can't already do with the system as is? Again unfortunately the answer is no, my ability to turn any force power check into a combined check gives me plenty of things to do with advantages, threats, triumphs and despairs at the times I or my players want to be able to do things with them.

More power to you man if you like your system, but for me it is "needlessly complex" because it adds more complexity without solving any problem I am having with the current system. Happy games friend.

Edited by tunewalker

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1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Sure, it's complex and complicated compared to the normal use of the force dice - which is obvious as the force dice is extremely simplified, but when compared to the normal dice pool system, it's not that much more complicated.
When you make it quick and simple, it's at the cost of something, like potentially losing compatibility with the rest of the core system. My system is compatible with the normal dice pool system, but mimics that what the force dice does, while also being much more connected with the character's abilities, skills, circumstances of the character's current situation. I also think it's important to consider what my system is actually capable of considering what it is and what it tries to accomplish.

Do you have any constructive suggestions to improve it or simplify, other than to bash at it? I was asking for constructive feedback, telling me that it's complicated and complex compared to the force dice, doesn't tell me something I don't already know, because that one is a given.

Yes, it’s called scrap it. As everyone has been saying it is needlessly complicated and bogs down the system. The Force powers  don’t need to be connected to a character’s other abilities, nor are they intended to, whether in the game or original sources. All that matters, when it comes to using the Force, is the character’s strength in the Force itself, not his or her other physical or mental capabilities.

Yoda is a little green “frog”( to use GL’s term for him), and very frail physically, but he is extremely powerful with the Force. That power in the Force is completely independent of his other abilities. 

That is the inherent beauty of the Force dice system and why it does indeed mimic the narrative feel of how the Force works in the source material. That is why everyone is telling you that your system is needless and overly complicated. 

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The other problem with this is you pull the gray jedi lameness. Which we all know you love but does not really fit in star wars as we never see anyone be gray. I am not aware of anyone who has messed with darkside stuff intentionally and not fallen. I just see no point to this system. Seems more like a power gamers wet dream. A guaranteed double your force rating everytime. Woo Hoo. No need to worry much about conflict.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Force powers  don’t need to be connected to a character’s other abilities, nor are they intended to, whether in the game or original sources. All that matters, when it comes to using the Force, is the character’s strength in the Force itself, not his or her other physical or mental capabilities.

I'm not talking about the force powers being connected to the character's other abilities and skills, but that the character's abilities and skills most certainly are connected to how well the force user is physically and mentally equipped to harness and handle the force, even the discription of the skill discipline indicates this. Strength in the force isn't the only thing that governs how well a force user can use the force.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda is a little green “frog”( to use GL’s term for him), and very frail physically, but he is extremely powerful with the Force. That power in the Force is completely independent of his other abilities. 

I disagree. Why? Because Yoda may be extremely powerful with the force, but if it was not for his willpower, wisdom, knowledge, insights and discipline ie. his abilities and skills, he would not be able to control his connection to the force, he might be able to harness and control it untrained, but Yoda is extremely far from being untrained, he has some 900 years of practice, training and development of his abilities and skills, which is what makes him so powerful in the force. When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.

In fact, because of the distribution of the sided force points, it inherently reflects both strength and skill, but this is first of all a static, secondly it's not individually tied to the characters abilities and skills. So for instance you could have one who only has 2 will power and 1 discipline but has 7 FR, does that to you seem plausible, that one that show's such a strong connection to the force would have only 2 will power and 1 discipline? Or the other way around, that one who has an exceptional training and thus has a high willpower and discipline, 5 in both, but only be knight level in force rating, would show inferior skill with handling the force than his willpower or discipline would suggest? The force dice is disconnected from the characters abilities and skills, but shouldn't be.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The other problem with this is you pull the gray jedi lameness. Which we all know you love but does not really fit in star wars as we never see anyone be gray. I am not aware of anyone who has messed with darkside stuff intentionally and not fallen. I just see no point to this system. Seems more like a power gamers wet dream. A guaranteed double your force rating everytime. Woo Hoo. No need to worry much about conflict.

First of all, this has nothing to do with the grey jedi or grey force users, so please do keep that out of this topic, thank you! Secondly, one under this is system are under NO CIRCUMSTANCES  GUARANTEED double the force rating! Guess you haven't realized this, but number of maximum points you can get on a force dice is 2, which you can get with a FR of 1, hence why the MAXIMUM AMOUNT that can be generated has to be x2, because anything else would not reflect the force dice. Thirdly, it's actually possible to fail as ability and proficiency dice has blanks on it, which the force dice do not. That one is able to choose what side of the force to manifest, is necessary as successess or failures do not have a color, and it gives the user a choice but isn't ensured that it will turn out as what was intended, and can even outright fail with added consequences. The part about not needing to worry about conflict, I don't follow, as one gets conflict for using force points of the opposing side. Furthermore, whatever circumstancial dices that are added, is something the player has no control over and is based on the circumstances of situation. So exactly does this become powergames wet dream?
 

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I also said needlessly complicated. There is no real benefit to your system. Unless bogging things down is your goal.

There definitely is a benefit to the system, but apparently you can't see it, even despite the fact that I directly explained it.
So basically, if you think this is needlessly complicated, then you should say the same about the game system's dice system, as it also bogs the game down, and my system is based on that system, so go figure.

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm not talking about the force powers being connected to the character's other abilities and skills, but that the character's abilities and skills most certainly are connected to how well the force user is physically and mentally equipped to harness and handle the force, even the discription of the skill discipline indicates this. Strength in the force isn't the only thing that governs how well a force user can use the force.

I disagree. Why? Because Yoda may be extremely powerful with the force, but if it was not for his willpower, wisdom, knowledge, insights and discipline ie. his abilities and skills, he would not be able to control his connection to the force, he might be able to harness and control it untrained, but Yoda is extremely far from being untrained, he has some 900 years of practice, training and development of his abilities and skills, which is what makes him so powerful in the force. When it comes to using the force it most certainly should come down to the characters physical and mental capabilities, and not just the character's strength in the force.

In fact, because of the distribution of the sided force points, it inherently reflects both strength and skill, but this is first of all a static, secondly it's not individually tied to the characters abilities and skills. So for instance you could have one who only has 2 will power and 1 discipline but has 7 FR, does that to you seem plausible, that one that show's such a strong connection to the force would have only 2 will power and 1 discipline? Or the other way around, that one who has an exceptional training and thus has a high willpower and discipline, 5 in both, but only be knight level in force rating, would show inferior skill with handling the force than his willpower or discipline would suggest? The force dice is disconnected from the characters abilities and skills, but shouldn't be.

First of all, this has nothing to do with the grey jedi or grey force users, so please do keep that out of this topic, thank you! Secondly, one under this is system are under NO CIRCUMSTANCES  GUARANTEED double the force rating! Guess you haven't realized this, but number of maximum points you can get on a force dice is 2, which you can get with a FR of 1, hence why the MAXIMUM AMOUNT that can be generated has to be x2, because anything else would not reflect the force dice. Thirdly, it's actually possible to fail as ability and proficiency dice has blanks on it, which the force dice do not. That one is able to choose what side of the force to manifest, is necessary as successess or failures do not have a color, and it gives the user a choice but isn't ensured that it will turn out as what was intended, and can even outright fail with added consequences. The part about not needing to worry about conflict, I don't follow, as one gets conflict for using force points of the opposing side. Furthermore, whatever circumstancial dices that are added, is something the player has no control over and is based on the circumstances of situation. So exactly does this become powergames wet dream?
 

There definitely is a benefit to the system, but apparently you can't see it, even despite the fact that I directly explained it.
So basically, if you think this is needlessly complicated, then you should say the same about the game system's dice system, as it also bogs the game down, and my system is based on that system, so go figure.

When you include special rules for gray jedi yeah it does. 

And yeah the benefit is for power gamers. A nice guaranteed anount of power every time you want to use the force. No hard choices.

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3 hours ago, tunewalker said:

I hope you enjoy your system I am not going to tell you or your players what to do with it. I personally will not be using it because any time I borrow or use house rules I first ask 3 questions.

The first: Is it more or less complex then we already have? if yes then the answer to the next 2 questions must either both be yes or one must be a HUGE yes.

The second: Is this rule fixing a problem I am having with the system? In this case the answer is no, force users have not been too powerful for my group by comparison to the non-force sensitives so I don't feel the need to lower reliability, I have had no issue with having skills, talents or Force Rating change how much a person can use the force or how much they can do with the force. Each force power has it's own talent tree meaning often times there are more talents for my groups force users than there are for the non-force users. Force rating has a very real and visual effect on the number of pips that are generated both of the kind my players want and the kind they don't want, and finally since I run the game any force power can become a combined check at my whim so skills are not something I feel my players are bypassing nor can they bypass situations as situations are the biggest and most common reason FOR said combined power checks. Examples again include using discipline opposed by resilience for the move power, discipline opposed by discipline for mind altering powers, and even coordination for using enhance to force leap depending on where they are leaping to and the situation they are in (and ya they sometimes use the extra pips in conjunction with the coordination, but they have to generate those extra pips to do so, which even at 2 FR they do not always get even with using the dark side). Maybe even Vigilance or perception, or discipline with sense depending on how they are using it.

And finally the third: Can this add something narratively to my group that I can't already do with the system as is? Again unfortunately the answer is no, my ability to turn any force power check into a combined check gives me plenty of things to do with advantages, threats, triumphs and despairs at the times I or my players want to be able to do things with them.

More power to you man if you like your system, but for me it is "needlessly complex" because it adds more complexity without solving any problem I am having with the current system. Happy games friend.

I respect your position.

However, it does seem like you have misunderstood a few things in regards the system above.

  1. The intent isn't to lower reliability, what it does give, is the players an option to more specifically affect if they're going to get the points they need, but won't necessarily get.
  2. Combining Skill checks, isn't meant as in when using the force power, but combining circumstancial modifiers that affect the outcome when generating the force points.
  3. Combining skill checks when using force powers is still something that should be done, and doesn't really have anything do with this system.

How would you handle how any circumstances in a situation affects the amount of force points that can be generated?

31 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

When you include special rules for gray jedi yeah it does. 

And yeah the benefit is for power gamers. A nice guaranteed anount of power every time you want to use the force. No hard choices.

It was only mentioned to point out that it can, not discuss that part.

I'd like to hear how you find that this system can guarantee an amount of power EVERYTIME one wants to use the force? Furthermore, how there are no hard choices?

Because this system does most certainly not guarantee that. Why?

  1. There are blanks on the ability and proficiency dice.
  2. Circumstancial / negative dice counteract the positive dice.
  3. There can be lots of choices, especially if it's made so threats don't automatically cancel out advantages and the same with failures and successes, because when there are threats and failures generated:
    Does the player want to:
    - Negate any threats.
    - Negate any failures.
    - Recovering strain over getting a success.
    - Recovering strain to reduce strain inflicted, over getting an additional success.
    Does the GM want to:
    - Negate any successes.
    - Negate any advantages.
    - Have the character suffer strain, and letting the player get an additional success.
    - Create an additional failure for the player to deal with.

There are choices alright, more than you give the system credit for.

So perhaps instead of you keep bashing it, you tell me what I asked you above.

30 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The chance anyone will try your house rule is inversely related to its word count. Many words, no chance... 💔

Well, thats really up to themselves. I think this system does have a lot of potential and with at bit of adjustments, tweaks and improvements, it could become a very good system.
Currently, I don't see the force dice system capable of doing what this system is made to handle, namely something that more accurately reflects the character's actual ability to generate force points, based on the character's abilities, skills, force rating and current situational circumstances that affect this.

 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I respect your position.

However, it does seem like you have misunderstood a few things in regards the system above.

  1. The intent isn't to lower reliability, what it does give, is the players an option to more specifically affect if they're going to get the points they need, but won't necessarily get.
  2. Combining Skill checks, isn't meant as in when using the force power, but combining circumstancial modifiers that affect the outcome when generating the force points.
  3. Combining skill checks when using force powers is still something that should be done, and doesn't really have anything do with this system.

How would you handle how any circumstances in a situation affects the amount of force points that can be generated?

It was only mentioned to point out that it can, not discuss that part.

I'd like to hear how you find that this system can guarantee an amount of power EVERYTIME one wants to use the force? Furthermore, how there are no hard choices?

Because this system does most certainly not guarantee that. Why?

  1. There are blanks on the ability and proficiency dice.
  2. Circumstancial / negative dice counteract the positive dice.
  3. There can be lots of choices, especially if it's made so threats don't automatically cancel out advantages and the same with failures and successes, because when there are threats and failures generated:
    Does the player want to:
    - Negate any threats.
    - Negate any failures.
    - Recovering strain over getting a success.
    - Recovering strain to reduce strain inflicted, over getting an additional success.
    Does the GM want:
    - Negate any successes.
    - Negate any advantages.
    - Have the character suffer strain, and letting the player get an additional success.
    - Create an additional failure for the player to deal with.

There are choices alright, more than you give the system credit for.

So perhaps instead of you keep bashing it, you tell me what I asked you above.

Well, thats really up to themselves. I think this system does have a lot of potential and with at bit of adjustments, tweaks and improvements, it could become a very good system.
Currently, I don't see the force dice system capable of doing what this system is made to handle, namely something that more accurately reflects the character's actual ability to generate force points, based on the character's abilities, skills, force rating and current situational circumstances that affect this.

 

Well given that most force powers dont include a die roll other that the force dice. So yeah it pretty much is guaranteed success on a whole boatload of things. Which leads me to believe you have never actually played with these rules Rules as Written. Which you REALLY should do for a while BEFORE you go trying to house rule the game. Because if you dont know how the rules play then you cant really judge the rules.

Edited by Daeglan

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well given that most force powers dont include a die roll other that the force dice. So yeah it pretty much is guaranteed success on a whole boatload of things. Which leads me to believe you have never actually plaid with these rules Rules as Written. Which you REALLY should do for a while BEFORE you go trying to house rule the game. Because if you dont know how the rules play then you cant really judge the rules.

I'm sorry to say, but you're very, very wrong here. You have very obviously misinterpreted or misunderstood the system that I've made. Because the system currently only deals with GENERATING force points based on ability, skill, force rating and circumstances in the users current situation - so any skill checks as a result of using a power should still be resolved. And again, you're not guaranteed success with this system, this should be inherently obvious as there are blanks on all dice EXCEPT the force dice, but this system doesn't use the force dice, so with this system you can inherently fail, both from rolling blanks, but also from successess being negated, and even when they're not negated you can still up with the OPPOSITE of what you intended to generate. So NO, there are NO GUARANTEES that you will successfully generate force points, even without circumstancial dices. I still don't get how you find that this system I've made gives anyone the guarantees you say it gives.

..and I have played a good deal with the game's own rules and system.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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