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Why Republic swarm is not a thing yet?

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Won my local hyperspace trial with this, it was small one, but still. And after looking around saw no other mention of people using anything similar.

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Gold Squadron Trooper  - 25
    Gold Squadron Trooper  - (25)

ARC-170 Starfighter - •“Sinker” - 54
    •“Sinker” - Wolfpack Veteran (54)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Gold Squadron Trooper  - 25
    Gold Squadron Trooper  - (25)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Gold Squadron Trooper  - 25
    Gold Squadron Trooper  - (25)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Gold Squadron Trooper  - 25
    Gold Squadron Trooper  - (25)

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Luminara Unduli - 46
    •Luminara Unduli - Wise Protector (44)
        Synchronized Console (2)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Sinker gives out rerolls, and Luminara negates those crits to make torrents live longer. Also Torrents evade linked to barrel makes them truly exeptional blockers. Also great at slowrolling in wide front, giving opponent no space to flank you.

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50 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

because jedi without delta B are really sad :(

especially when you could have a cody arc

Yes, jedi is nice and shiny, but this here uses luminara just for her abillity, not for damage dealing.

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2 hours ago, Redblock said:

Won my local hyperspace trial with this, it was small one, but still. And after looking around saw no other mention of people using anything similar.

Congratz! 

Dice-Wise, its a powerful list. 

I feel its hard to fly if your opponent does not joust it, cause of medium base combined with a lot of torrents.

For example fast aces like Fenn or Anakin could get behind your block and eat Luminara really fast.

So you must have piloted it  quite well.

I hope with next point change easy to fly lists like Rebel Beef get nerfed so that harder to fly lists become more rewarding

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Redblock said:

Yes, jedi is nice and shiny, but this here uses luminara just for her abillity, not for damage dealing.

She's by far my favorite Jedi, and her ability isn't really THAT huge

It's nice when it comes in clutch, but most of the time it doesn't do a whole lot thanks to the enemy having focus/forcus

Can't see it being more valuable than a Cody Arc actually killing things 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

She's by far my favorite Jedi, and her ability isn't really THAT huge

It's nice when it comes in clutch, but most of the time it doesn't do a whole lot thanks to the enemy having focus/forcus

Can't see it being more valuable than a Cody Arc actually killing things 

 

If you force your oponent to spend their focus or force, and not leave it for defence, it also counts a lot, with 4 torrents coming down on them. Replacing this with stock arc is way less optimal.

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5 minutes ago, pakirby said:

because Torrents just aren’t very good.  They need a drop big time...So does the ARCs

I'd care to disagree. Both GST and 104th are perfectly fine, the latter could perhaps drop a point. 

But then the rest of V19 is utter mess - yet none is what we really need for swarms. 

ARC could see the other generic getting cheaper, even if on the further expense of the 7th Fleet Gunner. 

I'm completely lost as to why have they got rid of the problem of 4x 7thFG by point balance when the very other faction of the same wave introduced multi-dots...

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A friend runs 4 GSTs, a 104th and Sinker with Shield Upgrade.

It's very nasty. He brings Gas Clouds as his obstacles, and does his best to place any non-gas clouds in the far corners. His deployment is then very simple, Sinker in the centre, GSTs in a block to one side, and the 104th on the other. The ships then roll up the board, with the 104th Arc turning in on the round he expect the engagement to begin to hinder/punish any ship which tries to rush Sinker. It works very, very well.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:

I'd care to disagree. Both GST and 104th are perfectly fine, the latter could perhaps drop a point. 

But then the rest of V19 is utter mess - yet none is what we really need for swarms. 

ARC could see the other generic getting cheaper, even if on the further expense of the 7th Fleet Gunner. 

I'm completely lost as to why have they got rid of the problem of 4x 7thFG by point balance when the very other faction of the same wave introduced multi-dots...

I guess I just personally don’t like torrents, I have something against them, LOL.  People can make them work obviously, but I’m not comfortable running any of the named pilots for their price point.  Which leaves you running GSTs.  If they had some better pilot abilities, maybe.. I am waiting for another ship for the faction.  Hopefully the Naboo & Y-Wing don’t disappoint.

Edited by pakirby

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I don't think Torrents need much of a drop at all. 

A Gold Squadron Torrent is 25 points. For that you have an I2, five hull ship.

On the scum side, a Binayre Pirate is 24 points. For that you have an I1, 2 hull and 2 shield ship.

Those are fairly similar stats and fairly similar point costs.

I didn't look at the named pilots and their abilities, so they may be a different story.

But strictly looking at lower cost, low initiative generics, they seem to be fairly costed. 

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The Gold Trooper Torrent is really well priced as a swarmer/filler.  1 point more than a TIE with the same Init.  Really nice statline, really nice actions, but a trash dial.  However, I kind of find that the Torrent dial doesn't need to be better.

And I'll add this: the Torrent is the best designed swarmer since the original TIE Fighter.  FFG created a ship which is going to feel really different, despite having a pretty similar role in a list.  I've never had a lot of fun with basic TIEs, but I think the Torrents are really cool.  I'd rather have a poor-flying tank than a fragile nimble filler.  I think the fact that it's going to appeal in a really different way, suit a really different person, is a major success.

AKneckpainstill.jpg

But as can be agreed by nearly everyone, the non-Gold Torrents are radically overpriced.  I don't even think most of the abilities are bad, just with the wrong prices.  Tucker's ability is solid.  Kickback has a cool synergy with Debris Gambit, for Roll-->Evade-->Lock.  Even Oddball probably wouldn't be too bad, if he was 33 points: one more than Mauler Mithel or Scourge Skutu--Init 5 TIEs with abilities of pretty similar power level.  Axe doesn't seem too handy, and Swoop seems wicked hard to use effectively, but 3 out of 5 would be OK, if they were priced like TIE fighters, rather than A-Wings.  Blue Protector 27, Tucker 28, Swoop 29, Axe 29, Kickback 31, Oddball 33.

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If they get generic with talent slot low enough you can have problems with battle meditation. or debris gambit, or dozen other combo posibilities, balance is a hard act.

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1 hour ago, Redblock said:

If they get generic with talent slot low enough you can have problems with battle meditation. or debris gambit, or dozen other combo posibilities, balance is a hard act.

Well, having them all be completely unplayable and not really used by anyone isn't exactly balanced either.

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4 hours ago, Redblock said:

If they get generic with talent slot low enough you can have problems with battle meditation. or debris gambit, or dozen other combo posibilities, balance is a hard act.

I struggle to see an actual problem.

Battle Meditation double-coordinates from Jedi aren't going to care if we're looking at two talented or untalented ships.

Debris Gambit linked rolls into white evades are cute, but not really OP, considering that under such a scheme as I'd suggest, they'd still be 30 points.  Even on full white moves with a barrel roll, these aren't too maneuverable.  It'd be a cute blocker, but probably nothing which really causes balance issues.  They're still 5 HP Init 3s.

Juke?  Naw, not even with Sinker to provide rerolls.  Juke Howlswarm does about the same total damage per swarm as simply Howl + Academy pilots, but Juke has less health, is restricted to Evade actions, and gets hosed by Force users. Juke Torrent/Sinker Swarm wouldn't be any different.

The only potential issue I can think of is Dedicated.  But then just raise the price of Dedicated.  I know some folks think Squad Seven Veteran is too pricey (47-48 was exactly what I'd expected for it, before the points dropped), but if Dedicated is really too strong on a 27 instead of 29 point Torrent, just raise Dedicated to 5 points, and .  But Dedicated almost surely wouldn't be a problem even if it was 30 points complete on the Blue Protector, instead of 32.

I mean, these things are basically TIE Fighters.  Cheap talented generic TIE Fighters aren't a problem; cheap talented generic Z-95s aren't a problem; I can't see anything in cheap talented generic Torrents that's different enough to cause issues.

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I believe the "actual problem" was just FFG experimenting with point scaling

Republic has a uniquely RIDICULOUS jump to I 3 before scaling normally

Hope they'll put Torrents down to TIE/Z95 level and scale up (most) 3-die ships to at least republic Arc scaling to make pilot abilities an actual investment instead of a no-brainer 

 

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Extended tournament is coming around, and I plan to take this list to test the waters, it will be first tourney after points change, so its lands unknown. 99% sure none of the ships in my list are getting any changes. That leaves the most important question, how to spend 2 points? The is 3 options - R4 astro, synced console or tactical scrambler (and no leaving 2 points for bid is not an option). So need suggestions, what upgrade,and on who?

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Republic swarm is not a thing because one can only put four ARC-170s in a list and four ships is not a swarm. Obviously, reducing the cost of ARCs so that at least six can fit in a list will solve the issue of why Republic swarm is not a thing. 

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Posted (edited)

Arcs are a bit too good of a ship to be swarm material, aren't they? Swarms are lots (5+? 6+?) of "cheap and basic" chassis, or not?

Edited by LUZ_TAK
spelling

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3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Republic swarm is not a thing because one can only put four ARC-170s in a list and four ships is not a swarm. Obviously, reducing the cost of ARCs so that at least six can fit in a list will solve the issue of why Republic swarm is not a thing. 

A friend of mine uses the term 'swarm' for any time you've got a full list of the maximum allowable of that ship.  We don't really have a great term for 4x of the same ship, though, do we?  Would herd work, for a time when you've filled a list entirely with one ship type, but when it's too few ships to truly be a swarm?

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17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A friend of mine uses the term 'swarm' for any time you've got a full list of the maximum allowable of that ship.  We don't really have a great term for 4x of the same ship, though, do we?  Would herd work, for a time when you've filled a list entirely with one ship type, but when it's too few ships to truly be a swarm?

I'm on board with the idea that a "swarm" list has to all be the same ship. I can also get behind a swarm being the maximum number allowable of a ship.

The stumble seems a herd is less than a swarm but what we call a swarm in X-wing is also considerably less than what constitutes a swarm when talking of animals in the collective. Herd seems the right track but suggests more than four to me.

Perhaps we can create or co-opt a collective noun on the lines of "murder of crows" or a "wake of buzzards." 

Perhaps "flight?" But that's just too boring and obvious. While not at the link above another such listing had an "audience of squid" which I rather like as it is alliterative: audience of arcs. 

Why do I think I've had this conversation before? 

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