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Duciris

Cycle V: The Dream-Eaters

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I agree. I’m pretty sad over versatile if I’m honest. Enabling broken combos is bad and if people are looking at the card as a great pick for Patrice, it should honestly just be included in her deck build to begin with. Who wants to spend 2-4 xp to correct something that could have been baked into the design anyway?

It also is stepping on the toes of the fun involved in larger group play. It may be useful in solo if you feel you desperately need an out of class card to cover yourself, but if I can take double or nothing without being a rogue for example, what sort of signature class basics are going to lose their shine when you can otherwise pair up with a friend to help pull off those fun shenanigans? This is one of those cards I’m going to shrug at and never use unless I basically feel like I have to in order to run Patrice.

I do really like the other cards though.

Edited by Soakman

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5 minutes ago, Soakman said:

It also is stepping on the toes of the fun involved in larger group play. It may be useful in solo if you feel you desperately need an out of class card to cover yourself, but if I can take double or nothing without being a rogue for example, what sort of signature class basics are going to lose their shine when you can otherwise pair up with a friend to help pull off those fun shenanigans? This is one of those cards I’m going to shrug at and never use unless I basically feel like I have to in order to run Patrice.

I'm not sure Versatile is going to kill cross-class collaboration in groups, or that it's really going to be a big problem.  If you have someone in your group who can take what you're looking for, it's dramatically cheaper to just let them do it.  I can see using it to add a random other card, but it's hard to see it breaking anything.  Those cards are 2 XP over cost to begin with, and the deck size increase is going to make getting the combo even harder.

But even then, I have a hard time seeing this breaking anything.  We already have investigators who can do this from their initial build, and it hasn't demolished the game yet.  Is there some theoretical breakage in there?  Sure, but you're really talking about something that will require a Level 3-5 from a class, a level 1-2 from a second class, and then one (or more) Level 0s from a third.  That seems pretty farfetched.

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Man, I misread Versatile.  I thought it was +5 to Hand Size, not Deck Size.  Not sure where my mind was.

Yeah.  There's probably not a lot of decks I wish were bigger.

(If you exile a card from your deck in one scenario, in the next you can add a 0-level card w/o paying XP right?  So adding this mid-campaign isn't going to cost you the 5XP it would otherwise take to add those 5 cards.  'Cause that would be even worse.)

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I think more than likely Versatile will be binder fodder to be honest.  Paying a 2 xp premium on a level 0 card is only gonna be worth it for the most broken cards like Dr. Milan, Machete or Elusive. 

If you care about card pool balance then you are probably also respecting the Taboo List.   That means for someone like Silas it takes 4 xp and an increase in your deck size to include 1 Machete... was that xp well spent?  It better be a bomb card because that's Timeworn Brand territory. 

If you don't care about card balance then you are most likely still playing with Key of Ys so more power to you.  Go nuts.

I agree it will be worthless until it's broken most likely.

That said someone like Mandy can more easily grab a 1x card out of her deck and probably can deal with the loss in consistency from the increased deck size.

Edited by phillos

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Correct. You wouldn’t have to pay for additional cards that were less than your deck size as long as they are lvl 0.

I’m not saying it’s outright going to break the game. And I would choose not to if there was a way to abuse it. But I do not find it particularly beneficial to the game barring perhaps solo play. And I do find it bit of bending deck building in an unpleasant direction.

Edited by Soakman

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I guess if you view AH:TCG through the lens of a creative deck building experience then it's nice to have the flexibility to bend the rules a bit.  Get some Stray Cats and Foolishness into a Carolyn deck to make a Crazy Cat Lady deck.  Put Scrying in a Roland deck so he can have visions of the future like Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks.  Something like that.  In that respect I can see if being a fun card for deck builders when building for standalone scenarios.

Add: Ethereal Form looks fun.  Put that and Astral Travel in your deck and you can make a really slippery Mystic.  Would be useful in alot of TFA scenarios that require backtracking through enemy infested territory.

Edited by phillos

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57 minutes ago, Allonym said:

So Versatile is (if I'm being honest) really bad design. Insofar as, it is a near-worthless card, unless and until it enables some broken combo. Also further steps on the toes of Lola Hayes but that's an inevitable decline.

"Let God Sort Them Out..." is infinitely better design than Delve Too Deep - the underlying design is far more appealing (complete a challenge rather than take a punishment), it only affects 1 investigator so it doesn't ramp up really hard by player count, and it's far harder to abuse.

Ethereal Form is an actually good mystic evade event, being 0-exp and giving you an actual bonus to the evade attempt as well as a nice extra benefit. Plus it's really great for Sefina Rousseau. That's the card I really like of the three new ones.

Yes I hate our group having to ban cards from the game (it's already happened with all Tarot cards outside of using them in TCU, and also banned all Bonded cards 'cos it's too bloaty for my tastes), and Versatile looks like it's next on the ban list for the reason you cite!

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I find it pretty hard to imagine Versatile being overpowered. It's 2 XP and a decent amount of deck thickening to get you a single level 0 card. That's a very steep price. The most ideal use for it is probably having Roland shove Act of Desperation under Stick to the Plan then take 2x of two different cantrips to counter the deck thinning, and even then he's risking his ability to get crucial weapons into play (because, while cantrips replace themselves eventually, they still count against your mulligan and Prepared for the Worst).

If somebody does manage to pull off some incredibly broken combo with Versatile, I'll congratulate them on a job well done. And then I'll do the same thing with that combo that I did with Infinite Testless Action Rita and pre-Taboo Key of Ys.

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30 minutes ago, rsdockery said:

I find it pretty hard to imagine Versatile being overpowered. It's 2 XP and a decent amount of deck thickening to get you a single level 0 card. That's a very steep price. The most ideal use for it is probably having Roland shove Act of Desperation under Stick to the Plan then take 2x of two different cantrips to counter the deck thinning, and even then he's risking his ability to get crucial weapons into play (because, while cantrips replace themselves eventually, they still count against your mulligan and Prepared for the Worst).

If somebody does manage to pull off some incredibly broken combo with Versatile, I'll congratulate them on a job well done. And then I'll do the same thing with that combo that I did with Infinite Testless Action Rita and pre-Taboo Key of Ys.

This.

I, personally, think Versatile is great card design.  It's virtually useless for the players who try to build the most efficient decks possible, so it probably won't hurt game balance.  However, it's perfect for the players who try to build thematic decks, allowing them to cram in a few more inefficient but thematically appropriate cards without taking out the cards needed to actually make the deck work.

Not every card will appeal to every player...

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Well,  lets just turn this into an exercise in...  "Whats the best/worst that could happen?"   For the record,  I'm not saying that any of these are super broken,   I'm just thinking about some interesting possibilities.   


This card allows literally the whole team to take copies of Delve too Deep.   The XP gain will pay for itself pretty quickly.   
Adding in a single Quantum Flux pretty well pulls the teeth out of many Dunwich missions.
An out-of-class Ward of Protection doesnt seem too bad.
Hallowed Mirror is a 1-of anyway.   A lot of value for this.   If you're worried about dying,  Out-of-class mirror is probably more efficient than adding in a Bulletproof Vest or Elder Sign Amulet.
I've been playing Dynamite Blast in Rex.   Honestly Dynamite is getting to be one of my favorite parts of the character.   It's so good.   Enabling Dynamite Blast in other seekers seems very strong.
Similarly Alice Luxley is very strong in seekers.
Rogues with guns gain access to Venturer.  
A lot of non-seeker clue-ers are going to like Magnifying Glass.
Or Milan Christopher
Like with Mirror, Occult Lexicon is 1-of anyway, and can give some card advantage to those who are lacking.
Guardians might be best poised to take advantage of Mr. Rook,  but really, anyone who wants to search their deck and get something nice could benefit.
1-of Shortcut in Guardians is pretty good.   It is very useful to be able to move quickly when you need it,  and it is a Tactic so it can go under Stick to the Plan.
The new Let God Sort them Out, is also a tactic which could go under stick to the plan,   1 of in guardians for a little extra xp pump.
Contraband is another option.  A  supply event that can go under Stick to the Plan,  and double Ammo tokens.   Nice for guardians!
Any number of helpful rogue economy cards, including Dario or Lone Wolf.
 Leo De Lucca, "The Louisiana Lion"
Even with only 1-of,   Lucky! is just a very, very good card...
So is Drawing Thin...
And Peter Sylvestre..
a single Scavenging is enough to enable Seeker recycling builds.

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4 hours ago, Duciris said:

Man, I misread Versatile.  I thought it was +5 to Hand Size, not Deck Size.  Not sure where my mind was.

I misread it exactly the same way! Then had to go back, and read it again based on the comments. I agree that the out of class card may be more powerful than the deck size changing (except maybe for Patrice).  It does fit in thematically with all of the different deck builds we know about in this cycle though. 

Edited by Mimi61

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I don't think it's not going to be particularly great for Patrice. Again drawing on the LOTR LCG, when Erestor was first released there was a lot of speculation about having really big decks and using his ability to tear through them, but in practice it was still far better to stick to a 50-card deck - it was far more beneficial to see all your good cards and empty your deck quickly than to keep having stuff to draw that was of lower quality, particularly as it really helps with assembling combos.

The existence of weaknesses shifts the needle somewhat, so a particularly nasty weakness might be worth trying to counter - but then you're only slightly reducing the rate at which you'll see your weaknesses. I'm not certain, so I'll wait and see, but I don't think it's a card that has some super synergy with her.

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Preston Fairmont needs Charles Ross, Esq., and the usual Rogue economy cards so he can buy an armory, grimoire, or Agency Backup for everyone, and never mind "You Owe Me One".

I'm really seeing Versatile as exceptionally versatile with the combos it makes possible.

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21 minutes ago, SamWeiss said:

Preston Fairmont needs Charles Ross, Esq., and the usual Rogue economy cards so he can buy an armory, grimoire, or Agency Backup for everyone, and never mind "You Owe Me One".

Items only :)

 

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19 minutes ago, SamWeiss said:

Preston Fairmont needs Charles Ross, Esq., and the usual Rogue economy cards so he can buy an armory, grimoire, or Agency Backup for everyone, and never mind "You Owe Me One".

I'm really seeing Versatile as exceptionally versatile with the combos it makes possible.

Preston Fairmont is better off spending the exp and ally slot on Lola Santiago, Leo de Luca, and/or any of the other great allies he already has access to, without also bloating his deck by 10 cards. In addition, Charles Ross, Esq. only works for Item assets so no funding anyone's Agency Backup.

Versatile will enable some janky builds but otherwise seems to be quite the opposite of versatile: A highly niche card.

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Preston/Ross paying for Yorick's recursion of weapons though could be pretty liberating for the Yorick player.  I like that Preston/Ross combination if the other decks are all built to take advantage of it, and Preston has access to tools to make sure a 1x Ross can hit the table reasonably early.  That sounds like a fun way to build Preston.  Not as ridiculous as never pull a chaos token Preston with Lola, Intel Report, Small Favor, Decoy and Grave Digger's Shovel, but it sounds fun.  If it wasn't for the deck thinning i'd be very excited about it.  Also My initial thought was Roland with Saint Hubert's Key and then the Desperate skill cards.  The card gets much more fun when you stop trying to build optimal decks with it.

Edited by phillos

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See? There is always that one thing that you need another card for.

So Preston keeps "You Owe Me One" to drop the Agency Backup, and Ross pays for the arms for Guardians and accessories for Mystics.
:D

 

Edited by SamWeiss

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Versatile is pretty strong in solo play.  You might be able to solo with more investigators now because you can add the Shortcuts, the Delves, etc. to investigators who needed something like that to do campaigns solo. 

Outside of the Preston/Ross combo(which I don't think is OP.  Preston could use some love), I feel like Versatile diminishes its returns the more players you add to the game, because you can specialize in a multiplayer variant and it does make scenarios easier. 

Edited by C2K

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Updating the numbers: 

1 Tommy Muldoon
2 Mandy Thompson
3 Tony Morgan
4 Luke Robinson
5 Patrice Hathaway = 5 investigators

Player cards (should be 51): 

6 Becky
7 Rookie Mistake
8 Occult Evidence x 3
9 Shocking Discovery
10 Bounty Contracts
11 Tony's .38 Long Colt x 2
12 Tony's Quarry
13 Gate Box
14 Detached from Reality
15 Dream-Gate
16 Patrice's Violin
17 Watcher from Another Dimension = 15

18 The Hungering Blade x 1 [bonded]
19 Bloodlust x 3
20 guardian 3 [myriad?]
21 seeker 1
22 seeker 2
23 seeker 3
24 Crystallizer of Dreams [bonded] ?
25 Guardian of the Crystallizer ?
26 rogue 3
27 Stargazing [bonded]
28 The Stars Are Right 
29 Open Gate x 3 [myriad] (7 mystic cards)
30 survivor 1
31 survivor 2 
32 survivor 3 {= 35 cards, #18-32?}
33 ???   [multiclass? / bonded?] 
34 ??? 2 
35 ??? 3
36 ??? 4 
37 ??? 5
38 ??? 6

56 player cards + 5 investigator cards. Current count: 5 investigator cards, 15 sigs, leaving 41 player cards for #18 - #38. 15 cards accounted for by #18-#19, #24-#25, #27-29. Leaves 26...

If each faction receives 7 player cards, #18-#32 = 35, meaning #33-#38 are each 1x. 

39 scenario card for scenario 1
40 agenda 1 Journal through the gates

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1 hour ago, zooeyglass said:

[...]
18 The Hungering Blade x 1 [bonded]
19 Bloodlust x 3
[...]

Out of curiosity: Where have these cards been spoiled? Were they revealed in a special podcast or something similar?

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Oh wow, i think this is the most complicated (and interesting) card they have printed so far. Though, I am still undecided on whether i like this new concept of "only 1 per investigator" cards with 3 bonded cards or not. For me the hungering blade has some kind of rogue-ish flavor because it is a huge gamble to use it. If you're already winning, you're going to win even more but if you're losing you will lose even quicker.

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