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player4162958

New Group Forming! Competitive advice request =)

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Hello!

I just wanted to give a brief background!  We're a group of salty 40k guys, looking for a game to play during our downtime in 40k.  We avidly play games 2-3 times a week and are generally highly competitive group.  We play 40k, obviously, but also games like Gloomhaven, D&D, etc. While even in D&D, we still optimize our characters and usually play more of a dungeon crawl kind of league.

That being said.  A few of us have chosen to dive into Legion, as it is pretty cheap to get started!  We ordered 1 core box per person, and will be pairing them up to split all the contents... so everyone is basically starting out with 2 core sets of their respective side.

I am trying to find recommended unit types for roles they play on the battlefield.  Build synergies, over/underpowered units, etc.  I have been reading the forums, and if there are units that are just plain 'awful', I didn't' want to waste the time in buy/painting them if they'll never see the field after a few uses.

What I've recommended to the group is that we find several competitive lists, and just choose one (or hybrid) that has models they like.  From there, learn to play it properly, and expand.  

Unfortunately for me, the roller droid guys aren't seemingly going to be available for a few months, which is the army I had my eyes set on initially.

Any help, guidance or resources would be a great start for us.  We've done games before and they fizzled out because people kind of lost focus.  I am trying to take on a champion role of Legion within the group to continue to generate excitement and be organized.

We also have some 3D Printers and have started to find terrain to print up as well.

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For rebels, Leia is a must have. Popular lists have her and Luke (wonder twins), usually with a couple of units of snipers (commando strike teams). By doubling up on the core sets you already have 4 units of rebel troopers (z6 loadouts are what you want), so you should be good with a Leia expansion and 2 lots of commandos.

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Here is a basic rebel list using what I recommended above:

http://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/rebel/p04uEMuEMuEMp06u10u0cuEMuEMp0eu2fuEMuEMuEMuEMp06u10u0cuEMuEMp06u10u0cuEMuEMp06u10u0cuEMuEMp0buEMuEMuEMp0eu2fuEMuEMuEMuEMp01uEMu04p01uEMu04c08

 

You could swap out the AT-RTs with more troopers/snipers if you bought additional units, but this list would be good to learn the basics without adding lots of upgrades etc.

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Thanks @Ghost Dancer!  Super cool of you to take the time to put that into the list creator.  I was just working on that, and was wondering about all the gear etc.

I ordered the 3 boxes as you recommended.

Reading up on Vader units right now, as my friend wants to do an 'iconic Vader centric list', and I think most of us will probably swap out to different leaders/characters just to avoid playing the same things.

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1 hour ago, player4162958 said:

Thanks @Ghost Dancer!  Super cool of you to take the time to put that into the list creator.  I was just working on that, and was wondering about all the gear etc.

I ordered the 3 boxes as you recommended.

Reading up on Vader units right now, as my friend wants to do an 'iconic Vader centric list', and I think most of us will probably swap out to different leaders/characters just to avoid playing the same things.

You're welcome. I purposely left off upgrades other than adding minis to units. I find its easier to learn that way. Once you've learnt the basics, you can add in upgrades to suit your strategies and play style.

I don't play Imperials, but Veers is a good commander (like Leia, he provides support). Typically with your storm troopers you want to take the DLT heavy weapons - you can't go wrong with range 4, impact with red dice.

Snipers are also good for imperials, so probably worth investing in those too.

Beyond that, you're best asking someone else.

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Here is more my kind of list.

Getting away from sniper or "spam" troops Reb side :

http://legion-hq.com/list/5cf63d953c261d1f6645a4f8

http://legion-hq.com/list/5c6d94ee36411c7317c3f303 (an old list I played since almost september. I may be one of the first guy to play saboteurs :p)

Imps side I'm more toward this :

http://legion-hq.com/list/5c66806e76f33d44e86ab307 (with an AT-ST and no named character)

http://legion-hq.com/list/5c8128c60af8b051eb823a59 (the new kind of list. I was always facinating about "Moral warfare" with Empire)

http://legion-hq.com/list/5cf685353c261d1f6645a500 (old list. A bit twiked with addition of one medical droid)

Except the second list, it's more about playing "what people think can't work" (outside of DLT storm. They are the corps, and are just too good to pass by)

Enjoy, this game is far more in depht, but far more straight forward than 40k.

I completely stopped 40k myself.

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22 hours ago, TalkPolite said:

Top 8 lists from Adepticon. Note, Krennic, Death Troopers, and a vehicle for each side have been added since high command! 

https://swlegionodds.com/2019/04/09/adepticon-high-command-top-8-lists/

So am I wrong in saying that it seems most lists are spamming 'cheap' stuff?  I see some caveats to that here and there...  I was hoping to see some dramatically different lists!   The winning list literally being a 6 Rebel, 3 Commando, Luke and Leia?  With the 2nd place list being a replication, but putting in a Chewbacca.

Keeping in mind, I have yet to actually play.  I've only watched videos and such.  But looking at these top lists are all based upon quantity over quality.  I see a snippet of Palpatine and some royal guards, or a Boba Fett, etc. 

Purely knee-jerk reaction, is this game currently undervalued the more elite units (or overcosted) across the board?

To be perfectly honest, seeing these lists is a huge turn off.

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12 minutes ago, player4162958 said:

So am I wrong in saying that it seems most lists are spamming 'cheap' stuff?  I see some caveats to that here and there...  I was hoping to see some dramatically different lists!   The winning list literally being a 6 Rebel, 3 Commando, Luke and Leia?  With the 2nd place list being a replication, but putting in a Chewbacca.

Keeping in mind, I have yet to actually play.  I've only watched videos and such.  But looking at these top lists are all based upon quantity over quality.  I see a snippet of Palpatine and some royal guards, or a Boba Fett, etc. 

Purely knee-jerk reaction, is this game currently undervalued the more elite units (or overcosted) across the board?

To be perfectly honest, seeing these lists is a huge turn off.

Keep in mind this is on event happening in the first year of the game - it’s not like we have a lot of choice! I’m just happy we had more variety than Imperial Assault Worlds, where 80% of the lists there were the literal exact same thing. What this list doesn’t show you is the awesome variety I personally saw at adepticon (I’m #4 on that list). 

Besides, I’ve you've played competitive 40k, you know people will find an effective thing and spam it. That’s been true in most competitive games I’ve ever played anyway. Multiple of the same thing gives you options if a unit gets hit early. 

What I've noticed is that yes, you leave upgrades at home for a good number of units. But leaders, and other elite units (like Death Troopers) can get loaded up. Additionally, Armies like Clones will be very elite (like Grey Knights).

This is because you have back and forth activations in Legion, so if I have 10 activations and you have 12, you would get to use two things without me getting to react. So activation advantage is something you’d work to achieve during a game (I.e., don’t leave lone squad leaders wandering around, eliminate them!). 

I’ll close with this - the game gets new units basically every month, and so the top list at one event can vary greatly from competition to competition. The developers have done a great job at keeping the game interesting over this first year, and Legion will get more complex as time goes on. Hopefully this helps explain what you’ve noticed! 

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Posted (edited)

Definitely seems like there are growing pains within the first year of a game.  I agree with you to a point of 40k, but 'right now' at least, the spam was centered around something like a Castellan, or expensive Eldar fliers.  

I think initially my friend wanted to do an iconic Vader, ATAT (or 2?), with some troops to position.  That list doesn't even seem to make it, since it would be highly.  I absolutely agree with you on some of the pitfalls of alternating activation, and the ability to go 2-3 times without repercussion is an absolutely massive advantage.  Not being a game designer, I'm honestly unsure how to combat that.  Perhaps limit activations to something like X+(Turn Number), etc.  Enticing people to take some more elite units for their early on effects of the game.  Just throwing out ideas on how to potentially counteract simply having loss of activations be such a major factor.

I just played Armada for the first time, and it also seemed to have the same 'flaw'.  Granted, we played an intro game with just a few ships.

I would be really interested to see the Clones.  Initially, when looking at things, I didn't realize how far off that core set was when I saw it was for pre-order... and I wanted to try the black roller ball droids, just because they look super cool 😃

Edited by player4162958

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8 minutes ago, player4162958 said:

Definitely seems like there are growing pains within the first year of a game.  I agree with you to a point of 40k, but 'right now' at least, the spam was centered around something like a Castellan, or expensive Eldar fliers.  

I think initially my friend wanted to do an iconic Vader, ATAT (or 2?), with some troops to position.  That list doesn't even seem to make it, since it would be highly.  I absolutely agree with you on some of the pitfalls of alternating activation, and the ability to go 2-3 times without repercussion is an absolutely massive advantage.  Not being a game designer, I'm honestly unsure how to combat that.  Perhaps limit activations to something like X+(Turn Number), etc.  Enticing people to take some more elite units for their early on effects of the game.  Just throwing out ideas on how to potentially counteract simply having loss of activations be such a major factor.

I just played Armada for the first time, and it also seemed to have the same 'flaw'.  Granted, we played an intro game with just a few ships.

I would be really interested to see the Clones.  Initially, when looking at things, I didn't realize how far off that core set was when I saw it was for pre-order... and I wanted to try the black roller ball droids, just because they look super cool 😃

To your last point, all I can say is “Roger Roger”. 

Ive seen a couple effective “elite” lists, as well as other suggestions to counter spam like a pass mechanic. In reality, spamming too many units is actually a bad thing, because you lose control and have no quality units (I’m looking at you 14 act Rebels). I think the meta has settled around 10, but as more interesting support, operatives, and special force units come out, I wouldn’t be surprised if we fell down to the 8-9 range. 

Theres other advantages to spamming troopers unit too btw. They score on a the current objective cards that you can play, and have other benefits, like a simple order pool where you know what you’re going to get when you pull randomly for an activation token. 

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I think there have been missteps on rebels recently, most of the new units in the last few months have been mostly ignored, Chewie, Jyn , Wookiee’s, Pathfinders and Turrets, it’s like the developers are super aware of power creep accusations and playing new unit releases very cautiously.

Rebels seem to have all these quirky mechanics that don’t synergise well, which is a shame, the good news is that Imperials have had a number of decent units recently in Krennic, Death Troopers and the tank, which also has bolstered the AT ST, but the game is sloping a little towards Imperials.

Good news is that you can still win games with almost any list, I decimated with Han, Chewie, Pathfinders, Speeder and Z6 troopers against Veers, Boba Fett, Tank and Dlts + Flamers, but if you are super competitive, playing around with experimental builds might not be fun for you.

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While many lists might involve spamming 'cheap' units, that will be because they are the most efficient units, combined with the need for Core units.

You need 3 core units in a list. But core are also a good way of having units that you can put on an objective so 4-5 isn't uncommon. And if you need them, then you take the most efficient version (generally DLT for Storms and Z6 for Rebs). Sniper teams are cheap(ish) and give additional activation's to help the activation war. Though now you have the emergence of Death Troopers who are more elite, and can chuck out a lot of fire power.

From listening to podcasts and me limited experience, the tables you play on will also affect the units that are 'good'.

The proportion of LOS blocking terrain (at least of infantry size models) seems lower in Legion. There might be lots of light/heavy cover, but not as much that stops people being able to see. More LoS blocking terrain would make units like Royal Guard and Wookies more effective as it allows them to avoid taking the damage while they close range.

I'd seriously recommend putting some models on the table and playing. Proxy stuff if you need to to get a feel as to what is good in your meta, as i'm sure you have experienced from 40k, Meta's are different in different areas.

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Some thoughts:

 

Playing with the correct amount of terrain is essential to game balance. Rules say 25% so take a 1.5’ x 3’ area and fill it with terrain. Then spread that terrain around. Also, in general I would expect about half to be LoS blocking. 

 

After that whilst the “meta” lists focus on high activation trooper spam the game is pretty balanced - so no reason you can’t play competitive / balanced games with elite stuff. 

 

I live Vader. He’s cool, and can be competitive. 

 

Enjoy!!

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19 hours ago, Dave Grant said:

Some thoughts:

 

Playing with the correct amount of terrain is essential to game balance. Rules say 25% so take a 1.5’ x 3’ area and fill it with terrain. Then spread that terrain around. Also, in general I would expect about half to be LoS blocking. 

 

After that whilst the “meta” lists focus on high activation trooper spam the game is pretty balanced - so no reason you can’t play competitive / balanced games with elite stuff. 

 

I live Vader. He’s cool, and can be competitive. 

 

Enjoy!!

Won a tournament once with a Vader 9 activations lists. Was cool enough.

But it was not "that" easy ^^

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New player so grain of salt, these are just beginner observations. The game is really centered on basic troops. Storm troopers, rebel troopers, and snow troopers just do a lot of work for the price. As a gamer who loves the one of each approach, it breaks my heart. Fleet troopers just don't quite stand up to the rebel trooper options. They aren't bad, it's just rebel troopers are so much more reliable, especially with Leah.

The strike teams are an inexpensive way to use the order mechanics, and snipers are handy. Someone in another thread I think nailed it that they hit the right combination of keywords.

Death troopers at least appear to be loved, but for the cost you can have 2 units of stormtroopers. Unless someone is using Krennic, you usually only see one, but almost always one with him. Wookies and Royal guard bring in some melee, but again usually only one outside corner cases. Boba fett apears much loved. 

Vehicles seem reserved still. Mostly the rebel AT-ST seems to see play with a good combination of points to durability.  I hope this changes as the other stuff is really cool, but it is what I see so far. 

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