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If you could change 1 thing...

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I would change the dice system, by decoupling accuracy from damage.

Like, the current red dice would be the accuracy dice, and the number of uncanceled hits during Neutralize Results would be the number of damage dice you roll. Damage dice would have basically equal chance of damage or no damage, and would mostly be unmoddable. Most current two dice primary ships would roll light damage, while everyone else would mostly roll medium dice. Certain weapons would roll heavy. Light would have 1 crit symbol, medium 2, and heavies  Then you'd say that all primary attacks would roll two accuracy (3 at R1) dice, unless otherwise specified. That way you could have mods to change accuracy without generating way more average damage. Each extra accuracy die would generate an average of about half a damage, before you take into account green dice.

 

Plus then you could have torps and missiles fill different niches (missiles throw 3/4 accuracy dice, but only ever roll two damage dice on a hit, while torps throw 1/2, but throw 3 damage dice on a hit, as an example)

 

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

True.

But if you defined Leia and Palp as Commanders, and thus 1 per list of that Crew subtype, it becomes a new design space to explore.

You could create a Rebel crew with a powerful ability, and not worry about that ability being additive with Leia, because you can only have 1 Commander.

With how Tac Relays have been going, that could work. Perhaps the new term “Solitary” could be used to make sure only one “commander”.

It has potential, but I still prefer my original suggestion.

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Posted (edited)

i preferred the 1.0 initiative system of pilot skill 1-8 1-9 better. Vader and Wedge and Soontir were PS9 . Boba PS8

seemed to work fine until vet instincts skewed things a little. 

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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Remember different PS Poe? That was dumb.

I don't miss Veteran Instincts and all the other nonsense.  I do miss Wired and a lot of the cheapo talents like Adrenaline Rush, Cool Hand, Determination, etc. that never got a chance to shine because VI dominated, but I digress...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Remember different PS Poe? That was dumb.

I don't miss Veteran Instincts and all the other nonsense.  I do miss Wired and a lot of the cheapo talents like Adrenaline Rush, Cool Hand, Determination, etc. that never got a chance to shine because VI dominated, but I digress...

Tomax misses them too, especially Adrenaline Rush. Talk about one card to make a pilot! Tomax, Adrenaline Rush, Proton Torpedoes and you're good to go!

Right now he has... Crack shot. That's about it unless he wants to get crazy with Elusive, but he'll be recharging that with K-turns anyway and can't afford to be stressed that much. More single-charge talents would be great for him.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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On 6/1/2019 at 4:40 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Lol no it doesn't

Green dice add to the feel of rng taking away from good manuevers, either by spiking an ace into invulnerability when focus fired or insta-death with only one arc to worry about

Armada tokens are the REAL means of giving the Defender something to do. They're a really involved resource management game that allows you to really "push" your ship by either using a token once per round or twice at the cost of discarding the token forever.

It also rewards the defender for range control (with the evade token) and rewards the attacker for concetrating fire.

 

Now, second edition has done really well to mitigate the idiocy of green dice :

1.) no stupid, undodgable turrets turning xwing into pure dice 

2.) no guaranteed defense stacking that meant you only had one real chance out of multiple shots to do any damage

3.) no crazy, infinite regen that could tank forever with one or two lucky rolls ruining your only chance to kill them 

 

So green dice are "fine", but they are by no means the best system to give a defender any agency 

Thank you for taking the time to answer. 

1) What I meant by giving the defender "something to do" was not from a game-theory perspective, but more from a game-playing perspective, i.e. It is more fun when both players are "equally" engaged in the combat, and not just on the recieving end of (my) red (hot) dice. Not being a statistician I am not really sure what the difference of say, and these are purely thought-examples (forget green dice are weakee that red):

a) Attacker throws 2 red dice.

b) Attacker throws 3 red dice and 1 green dice.

c) Attacker throws 3 red dice and defender throws 1 green dice.

I suspect, variance is higher in b)+c)

2) The "agency"/tokens you speak of in Armada (not being familiar with Armada) sounds a bit like the "evade" token in x-wing, so we have that?

3) Green dice adds to the experince of dogfighting eg small fighters dodging attacks with many green dice, versus larger ships not being able to dodge as easily -  this is an important part of the game. 

Green dice should stay!!!

 

 

To me it sounds a bit like you dislike the the randomness from dice? 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

Armada (not being familiar with Armada) sounds a bit like the "evade" token in x-wing, so we have that?

 

no, the effectiveness of Armada's evade token is determined by the attack range

 

https://starwars-armada.fandom.com/wiki/Defense_Tokens

Evade:"If the attack occurs at long range, the defender chooses and cancels one attack die. At medium range, he chooses one attack die to be rerolled. At close range and distance 1, the token has no effect."

 

and no, green dice do not necessarily add to the experience of dog fighting, it's just an abstraction that could be replaced with another (probably superior) abstraction. Since dogfighting seems to be primarily about the pilot's ability to maneuver, you'd think rng has **** all to do with it next to more concrete factors such as speed/attack angle etc. (i.e, things the player can actually control)

 

Green dice are an imo lazy compromise that hampers x-wing with a system where the addition or subtraction of one red/green die has a ridiculously profound effect on a ship's performance. It's not just about "variance", it's that the excessively simplistic system puts way too much emphasis on "spike rolls" to the point where one can utterly screw a player out of the game. This was a MASSIVE problem in first ed, where shooting at like Palp aces would only give you one or two chances to put any damage through (since everything else was guaranteed to cancel). If anything, X-wing needs more dice/rolls to allow enough opportunities, balanced around player action of course, for the dice to average out before the game is decided. Basically, a.) more dice, b.) player skill has greater influence on amount of dice thrown, and c.) more dice needed to kill a ship, without ships magically never taking damage

For example, Armada does away with defense dice but simply puts far more attack dice on the table (ISDs have EIGHT!) provided the player can properly leverage the ship (most imperial ships are front-heavy, and are nearly half as effective from the side and utterly pathetic from the rear) and the opponent does not properly counter (even a puny Cr-90 can survive an ISD at long range, ala A New hope, thanks to its emphasis on evasion as a defense mechanism; even more so if it uses obstacles/ships to obstruct the shots). At the same time, however, a Cr-90 won't infinetly survive long range fire like a lucky soontir could. If it keeps taking foward arc fire, even at long range, it'll pop. 

A slightly more complex system, be it Armada or something like Warmachine where the ability to hit and harm are determined by different values, would allow for much more gameplay variety 

Something like alternate win conditions would also elevate player strategy over rng, since you could adapt to "bad luck", but we haven't gotten them yet. 

 

Obviously, green dice going to stay. X-wing 2nd ed isn't fundamentally busted like 1st ed and FFG has already missed their chance to do away with green dice and to put a better system in their place. So, it'll remain a minor blemish on a game I otherwise greatly enjoy. 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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On 6/1/2019 at 10:11 AM, AdrianBP said:

One change only?

Gas clouds should give a strain token when overlaping them.

I really like where the game is at in general, but I definitely like this change.  That or objectives.

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9 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Remember different PS Poe? That was dumb.

I don't miss Veteran Instincts and all the other nonsense.  I do miss Wired and a lot of the cheapo talents like Adrenaline Rush, Cool Hand, Determination, etc. that never got a chance to shine because VI dominated, but I digress...

Back when our Blessed Gunboats first released, I had an absolute ball flying Karsabi with Wired. Take a stress to remove my weapons disabled after a slam, and then use that to get rerolls? Yes please. I'll take that All. Day. Long. PTL A-wings enjoyed it a lot too, though PTL had it's own clear issues in balance and auto-take.

7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

no, the effectiveness of Armada's evade token is determined by the attack range

 

https://starwars-armada.fandom.com/wiki/Defense_Tokens

Evade:"If the attack occurs at long range, the defender chooses and cancels one attack die. At medium range, he chooses one attack die to be rerolled. At close range and distance 1, the token has no effect."

 

and no, green dice do not necessarily add to the experience of dog fighting, it's just an abstraction that could be replaced with another (probably superior) abstraction. Since dogfighting seems to be primarily about the pilot's ability to maneuver, you'd think rng has **** all to do with it next to more concrete factors such as speed/attack angle etc. (i.e, things the player can actually control)

 

Green dice are an imo lazy compromise that hampers x-wing with a system where the addition or subtraction of one red/green die has a ridiculously profound effect on a ship's performance. It's not just about "variance", it's that the excessively simplistic system puts way too much emphasis on "spike rolls" to the point where one can utterly screw a player out of the game. This was a MASSIVE problem in first ed, where shooting at like Palp aces would only give you one or two chances to put any damage through (since everything else was guaranteed to cancel). If anything, X-wing needs more dice/rolls to allow enough opportunities, balanced around player action of course, for the dice to average out before the game is decided. Basically, a.) more dice, b.) player skill has greater influence on amount of dice thrown, and c.) more dice needed to kill a ship, without ships magically never taking damage

For example, Armada does away with defense dice but simply puts far more attack dice on the table (ISDs have EIGHT!) provided the player can properly leverage the ship (most imperial ships are front-heavy, and are nearly half as effective from the side and utterly pathetic from the rear) and the opponent does not properly counter (even a puny Cr-90 can survive an ISD at long range, ala A New hope, thanks to its emphasis on evasion as a defense mechanism; even more so if it uses obstacles/ships to obstruct the shots). At the same time, however, a Cr-90 won't infinetly survive long range fire like a lucky soontir could. If it keeps taking foward arc fire, even at long range, it'll pop. 

A slightly more complex system, be it Armada or something like Warmachine where the ability to hit and harm are determined by different values, would allow for much more gameplay variety 

Something like alternate win conditions would also elevate player strategy over rng, since you could adapt to "bad luck", but we haven't gotten them yet. 

 

Obviously, green dice going to stay. X-wing 2nd ed isn't fundamentally busted like 1st ed and FFG has already missed their chance to do away with green dice and to put a better system in their place. So, it'll remain a minor blemish on a game I otherwise greatly enjoy. 

I'd be entirely on board with an Armada style defence system but it would require a dramatic rewrite of the game system. Scatter would be horsecrap and would need to be immediately omitted from the game. Redirect would imply there would be shield zones, but I guess you could rewrite it to something like "spend this token during an attack to change one hit to a blank, or one critical hit to a focus" and keep the theme going. Contain is **** near a direct transfer (points if that means bringing in DCO for large ships too!). Evades are similarly pretty simple, and the fact that it doesn't work at range 1 is arguably a lot more thematic than Fenn or Soontir dancing their way into range 1 and doing zero damage due to a lucky defence roll or token stack. Brace is also a pretty straight pull into the game, but would arguably be as powerful as a focus-evade combo.

Maybe something like small base only get Evades and/or a Brace, medium base get Evades, Brace, and Redirect (with that wording above), and large get Redirects, Brace, and Contains. Throw in that nothing works at speed 0 or 1 (a lá Armada speed 0), and you've got an incentive to move fast to actually dodge things, and continue your high agility reward. You could also say Evades couldn't be spent if the ship doesn't have an action (bump/obstacle), for both more theme and balance to the kit.

 

But that's all conjecture. It'll never happen. Armada's dice are literally based around that system (helllllooooo blue dice).

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For all my posts on this thread, I haven't actually given my one thing. Which is a really hard decision. I also want to have a new attack AND DEFENSE DICE (😉) system, but not get rid of either. I can't give that as my one though for the reason that FFG would never do it anyway: they can't invalidate any product previously produced that is labeled compatible, including old prize material like prize dice. Which is the same reason why I can't give the other one I'd really like: add the 4-bank maneuver template. Since they've given away complete sets of acrylics that wouldn't have them. So my top two are kinda shot, since the other like 20 actually all made their way into second ed so I'm sitting pretty. But if I Force myself to choose ONE thing...hmm. that's tough...

I guess Remove tractor beams from the game. They don't thematically fit since theirs no canonical source of them being used in combat let alone functioning the way they do in game even outside of combat, and I've never seen anything but salt come from them. To wit,I don't think I've ever seen a player on either side of the table approach them from anything other than the perspectives 'I don't like the way they work but their effective so I play them because I want to win' or 'they're in the game and theirs nothing I can do about it now so I'll do the best I can and just muddle through.' There are of course the folks who are all gleeful about them and giddy whenever they use them. But real talk every single time it's the TFG in the group who has that attitude about them. So if you love Tractor Beams and think their great, and the people around you don't and grumble and moan about them, I've got bad news for you: you're TFG. Which isn't a good thing for any game to cater too. Remember the old internet adage "don't feed the trolls".

I could live with them if they were completely reworked to be sensible to the lore and the games enjoyment for all sides. But you'd still be missing a canonical reference for them used in fighter scale combat successfully. I think that would be more healthful to the game than my other choice which is get rid of conditions, which I saw someone else mentioned.

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I mean when they were introduced originally, they were in canon on a few fighter scale ships (Gunboats most notably), but the game interpretation is fairly different for sure. Yes, it does reduce agility in that the targeted ship would be slowed down, but the boost/barrel roll reposition seemed very odd.

I reckon the tractor beam system would have worked better as a passive bullseye ability in a cannon slot, kind of like a bullseye Outmanoeuvr, but that makes it somewhat useless on the one ship that most famously carried it.

 

I have similar issues with jamming beam, both in terms of each of their opportunity costs and mechanics, but at least that's free.

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Were they really on gunboats? That would be an obscure enough of a reference I would have never seen it. As for the rest, that's exactly what I'm saying. The tractor beam in this game doesn't work like a tractor beam. It works like a knock back gun on steroids. I ain't ever seen any of the movies or the shows smack a fighter out of control before. Maybe it's in a book? But if it can do that, then every. Major. Battle. In. Canon. Makes. No. Sense. Tractors drag on it like a ball and chain but that's it.

Which would have been just fine as a mechanic.

Like for me a neat interpretation could be: When you perform a tractor attack, if you hit, place a tractor lock token assigned to that ship matching your ship ID token. When a ship performing a maneuver, reduce it's speed by one for each tractor lock token assigned to it. When a ship defends, reduce it's agility by the number of tractor locks assigned to it. After a ship activates, remove all tractor lock tokens assigned to it. If you are destroyed remove all your matching tractor lock tokens from ships they are assigned to.

This variant uses the familiar mechanics of Target locks and gives them a function that has play and counter play. When a tractored ship goes to perform it's planning phase, his dial is completely back set one speed. B-wings realize they can do a speed zero talon roll. Tie Interceptors suddenly can curve into a blue 1-turn. But every ship affected completely loses their highest moves. Resistance A-wings that were trying to blue 3-bank out of the fight are stuck at two. The koigran that was going to clear at speed four might not make it at three. And this plays to the tractor home faction of scum to a 'T'. They just mess with stuff. They make it weird and challenge you to make sense of it.

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Armada (there's that game again) has some tractor-like shenanigans that are all entirely based around speeding up or (more commonly) slowing down an opponent. I would not at all be against getting rid of the tractor repositioning and replacing it with a text that says when you activate, you increase the difficulty of the revealed maneuver by 1 for each token you have, and if the maneuver is a "special" (K, S, T, etc) then you cannot do the rotation at the end (turning it into a straight, bank, or turn). Alternatively, or maybe additionally, the speed of the maneuver decreases by the number of tokens too.

Either of those options feels much more along the lines of the "capture and control" weapon the tractor beam should be. The only ship the current repositioning rules actually feel right is the Quadjumper, and that's because it's literally a tug.

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On 6/1/2019 at 4:57 AM, Kieransi said:

I'd be down for removing initiative killing as a mechanic (all ships get to shoot the round they are destroyed regardless of initiative). It's sort of like Veteran Instincts was in 1.0, where removing it would mess up too much stuff to do it now, but for future editions, I think it would be cool to balance higher initiative solely around positional advantage rather than trying to balance out alpha strikes (since I feel like that's where a lot of the weird costing on different initiative generics comes from).

So I flew two games the other day.  In both, my opponent had 4 Crack Shot Tala Z-95s, Magva, and a generic B-Wing.

First game I flew Ello Asty and two MG-100s with FCS, Pattern Analyzer, and Veteran Turret Gunner.

Second game I flew Ketsu, Talonbane, and Serissu--two hard hitting Init 5s, and Serissu with a reliable final damage from an Ion Cannon.

In both, Initiative Killing made a *huge* impact.  First game, my Init 1 bombers died with stuff at range 1, and probably could have put a few hits into stuff.  Might have made a difference in timer MOV.  4+3 dice attacks is a lot of firepower to lose an attack with.  Second game, Range 1 Fearless/Maul Ketsu onto a tractored Z with Talonbane and a Serissu Ion Cannon as follow-up was often killing stuff before it could attack.  I was also able to chuck his U-Wing onto a rock to prevent a Range 1 attack.  Granted, that's separate from an Init kill, but a few more Range 1 attacks from the Z-95s again might have put some into half points, or finished off Mr. TBC.  Talonbane took a few hits including the nasty Structural Damage for reduced defense dice, but lived out the entire rest of the game without taking another hit.  If those Z-95s could have gotten off final attacks...

My friend was observing that Z-95s either seem to do very well, or very poorly.  I tend to think Initiative killing is going to have a large deal to do with that.

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On 6/1/2019 at 1:32 PM, theBitterFig said:

A thought I had--in relation to @Kieransi and the suggestion of no-more initiative kills--was that a killed pilot ought to get a little weaker.  Something like a ship attacked by a "destroyed" ship would get to change one eye to a blank, or hit or crit to an eye.  This would also be a benefit to going first within an initiative step, where if you can ring the bell of someone shooting back, you'll have an easier time living on the other end of it.

Kind of linked to that..  I'd like rules for Willfully trying to ram into an opponent..

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NakedDex said:

I still haven't seen Last Jedi, but I presume Holdo was the one who came up with the crashy-smashy plan, then?

Yes. And officially established that human Shields ate usable as a substitute for plot armor. Also I'm stealing that plan name.

Also save your time, 8 is worse every time I watch it. Don't join. Don't start.

Edited by ForceSensitive
Added, spelling

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Posted (edited)

Ep 8 is like Rogue1, about 45 minutes of cool stuff buried in ancillary plotlines and characters

Holdo's ram is Def one of the most visually badass things I've seen in a long while, even if it only worked because the Supremacy is a stupidly wide ship 

It's like they were just asking to be rammed! 

(Don't read your much into that phrasing)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I'm probably not going to see it unless it's on Netflix when I'm terribly bored. Despite playing this game since launch, Armada, and even the RPG, I actually don't like Star Wars movies. I don't know what it is about this universe, but almost all of the games are great, but the actual "sanctioned canon" stuff have all been things I just can't get into. Most of the tabletop games have been a blast, and a bunch of the computer games have been fantastic too, but I can't deal with the movies or shows at all.

 

prepares for lynching

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Posted (edited)

You're lucky I can't find my torch and pitchforks!

 

In all seriousness, Episode IV is just a basic, well told story. What really elevates it is the film tech that came with it, specifically in the battle over yavin. I don't think anyone expected it to blow up like it did, but the combination of then revolutionary effects + basic story but likable characters made lightning in a bottle

Now, Empire is just cinematically brilliant, imo. There's story telling built into the fight choreography, especially when Luke finally confronts Vader. ****, that confrontation even rolls in elements from horror movie staging and pacing to really showcase how terrifying Vader is. It's considered the best Star Wars for a reason!

The Last Jedi has the first signs of prequelitis, which is George Lucas shoving in random, stupid **** for no plot-justifiable reason and making Han kinda superfluous. But it's still the characters we know and love, the incredible pressence of Palpatine, and one of the strongest finales I've ever witnessed.

(Also the stupid not special edition **** was at least charming, probably because Ewoks couldn't articulate human words and especially not in jarjarneese

Also, they were humanized by their interaction with our beloved characters, fought beside them, and actually expressed grief at loss of their fellows

Whereas gungans we just have ******* jarjar to anchor us to the battle. Boss Nas is the only Gungans with a personality beyond "constant buffoon" and he couldn't even participate because he's a fat toad!)

That's my abridged take on why I love the OT so much 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, NakedDex said:

I'm probably not going to see it unless it's on Netflix when I'm terribly bored. Despite playing this game since launch, Armada, and even the RPG, I actually don't like Star Wars movies. I don't know what it is about this universe, but almost all of the games are great, but the actual "sanctioned canon" stuff have all been things I just can't get into. Most of the tabletop games have been a blast, and a bunch of the computer games have been fantastic too, but I can't deal with the movies or shows at all.

 

prepares for lynching

It's on *e* American *e* Netflix currently, but who knows for how long.

Anyhow, every time I watch Last Jedi I love it more and more.  I know some folks didn't like it, I know a lot do.  Eh, to each their own.  The world would be boring if we all liked the same things.  Best to judge for yourself.

Edited by theBitterFig

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