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Point Changes - They're Coming!

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17 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

So it's ok for the tie-striker to be unplayable? Seriously, i loved playing the striker even at the tail end of V1, but I just can't find the fun in that now. They're so fragile and cost almost as much as a barrage bomber, while being mostly worse in every aspect...

I’ve had a ton of fun and success with the Striker. The Sentinel isn’t worth taking 1 of, but 2-3 is very effective.

Black Squad though…

And all the named pilots are worthwhile and have their niche. I don’t think they need a point drop on the I1 nearly as much as Interceptors. Until and unless I5-6 goes up across the board, I don’t see any Interceptors being viable other than Soontir.

Which is sad, Turr would be amazing fun… if every other damned list wasn’t all I5-6 ships.

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Just now, millertime059 said:

I’ve had a ton of fun and success with the Striker. The Sentinel isn’t worth taking 1 of, but 2-3 is very effective.

Black Squad though…

And all the named pilots are worthwhile and have their niche. I don’t think they need a point drop on the I1 nearly as much as Interceptors. Until and unless I5-6 goes up across the board, I don’t see any Interceptors being viable other than Soontir.

Which is sad, Turr would be amazing fun… if every other damned list wasn’t all I5-6 ships.

Boy howdy do I hope they drop Sabaac a couple of points. Duchess and Countdown have both seen play where they are and I think are "healthy". The generics.... meh. Generics don't add anything special to the game other than being a couple of points cheaper, and when you have a gazillion ships in the game, all with generics to act as "filler" there will always be a couple that are better than the others. IMO the TIE Aggressor has really meh named pilots (despite Kestal being neat.... in a different platform maybe) and having those as the filler of choice would be my vote. 

As far as interceptors go, same feelings. The window between "unplayable because they die too fast for their damage" and "so cheap that their alpha is incredible if you don't lose two before they shoot you win" might not exist. Basically the ability to spam generic Strikers and Interceptors (or any fragile 3 dice attack) is something that I think might be really bad for the game. 

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24 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

As far as interceptors go, same feelings. The window between "unplayable because they die too fast for their damage" and "so cheap that their alpha is incredible if you don't lose two before they shoot you win" might not exist. Basically the ability to spam generic Strikers and Interceptors (or any fragile 3 dice attack) is something that I think might be really bad for the game. 

Maybe try 6x Alpha Squadron in FlyCasual and see if you still feel that way? At I1 they get Initiative-Killed all the time so it's hard to classify them as an alpha strike per se. Either they take the evade to try to survive and don't have offensive mods or they take a focus to try to stay alive and most of them still don't have offensive mods. Averaging 1.5 hits each against a 2 agility chassis leaves their damage output quite low compared to something like a Howl swarm, and has nowhere near the survivability that Del and Iden give.

Also keep in mind that because of that, a 6 interceptor list actually means a 5 interceptor list 😛

28 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Generics don't add anything special to the game other than being a couple of points cheaper, and when you have a gazillion ships in the game, all with generics to act as "filler" there will always be a couple that are better than the others. IMO the TIE Aggressor has really meh named pilots (despite Kestal being neat.... in a different platform maybe) and having those as the filler of choice would be my vote. 

I'm going to disagree here. Generics are the baseline of the game, while unique pilots just add a fun twist. Generics should all be viable, and each in their own niche. Some lists need a cheap blocker. Some need a mid-level support ship. Others just one more ordnance platform and still others just one more 3-primary or turret attack. I definitely think it's possible to make all generics viable in their own niches.

That said, the idea that the Aggressor should be the go-to filler ship is kind of... mind-boggling? For certain lists, yes, the coverage or double-tap an aggressor provides is just the thing. But thematically speaking, the empire had by far the highest quantities of TIE/ln fighters. If anything, that should be the default filler. After that, they had enormous numbers of interceptors and quite a lot of bombers, which should also make decent filler. Every other kind of TIE (in both Canon and Legends) was experimental by nature and limited to specific times and places. The striker, aggressor, punisher, defender, advanced v1 and x1, etc. are all experimental craft with specifically intended purposes. I'm fine with them being good filler if you need those specific things; after all, the Empire is the toolkit faction - they have a ship for every job. But my argument is that the go-to filler chassis should be, in order: TIE/ln, TIE/in, TIE/sa.

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22 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Also keep in mind that because of that, a 6 interceptor list actually means a 5 interceptor list 😛

Thats kind of what I mean: mostly they aren't going to be good, until you can field enough of them that they are probably too good. The window of "balanced" is something I don't think exists.

24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Generics are the baseline of the game, while unique pilots just add a fun twist.

I respect your opinion and disagree that they are the baseline of the game, which I think is more of a matter of philosophy rather than concrete facts.

25 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That said, the idea that the Aggressor should be the go-to filler ship is kind of... mind-boggling? For certain lists, yes, the coverage or double-tap an aggressor provides is just the thing. But thematically speaking, the empire had by far the highest quantities of TIE/ln fighters.

See, this is because I'm not really a Star Wars fan. I don't particularly care about the whole universe and timeline: I'm looking at the TIE aggressor and say to myself "boy those unique pilots are meh" and pick those as the generic filler ship that should be the competitive strongest so they see some play.

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In my experience, Countdown is the least useful of the named Strikers. Granted, I've used him the least, but Pure Sabaac with Shield Upgrade and Predator is only 52 points and hits like a truck. Duchess is IMO one of the best imperial pilots, also loves Predator and can really cause serious damage if moving second. The generics are pretty bad though.

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Countdown has value, especially in a munition heavy meta.

I fire a proton torpedo.

Cool, I take one damage.

Doing that once per turn has value. In fact competitively is probably the best choice, simply because it smooths variance. I prefer the others, but they are more prone to simple bad luck. Sometimes you roll up with Pure Sabaac at range one and roll focus and four blanks. And now that I3 ship you should have killed, it’ll roll natties and kill you instead.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think we'll see a viable Alpha squaddie interceptor

The ship is simply far too skewed towards being more effective at higher I. The Striker (imo) is far better designed because it has more limited (re: compulsory) pre-manuever repositioning that gives it speed and mods without stress, but which doesn't exactly give the arc dodging flexibility of autothrusters (duchess excepted). Ailerons also lend themselves much better to jousting wheras autothrusters denies it 

Course, not every pilot HAS to be viable. I think time would be better spent balancing the Saber and thurr than the alpha.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't think we'll see a viable Alpha squaddie interceptor

The ship is simply far too skewed towards being more effective at higher I. The Striker (imo) is far better designed because it has more limited (re: compulsory) pre-manuever repositioning that gives it speed and mods without stress, but which doesn't exactly give the arc dodging flexibility of autothrusters (duchess excepted)

Course, not every pilot HAS to be viable. I think time would be better spent balancing the Saber and thurr than the alpha.

Sure they can't be viable at 34. But would it be viable at 31 points? Or at 29? How many you can fit in a squad is only one metric, and not that good of one. They can still be useful in other contexts (an excellent blocker or another good primary for Howl's buff).

I think the case is to be made that a chassis like the TIE/in should scale much more aggressively in terms of initiative than others, especially others like the YV-666 or U-Wing who get very little benefit from higher initiative. This goes for the high initiatives, but it should also apply to the low ones.

Choosing between Scourge and an Alpha at the same price would be an interesting decision. Strictly better offense for the Alpha in addition to its maneuverability, but also much, much more likely to be caught in arc and/or I-killed.

But of course, there are perfectly rational reasons why some would never ever play them (like fickle green dice).

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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On 6/3/2019 at 7:43 PM, RunnerAZ said:

FO needs a bit of help - it's unfortunate that they need to lean on the Ups so much.

The silencers could stand to drop a point or two.  The inability to take an Evade action really hurts their survivability. 

Further, the overpriced nature is apparent when you compare two ships with similar dials and similar health - I am using the PS1 ships since they provide the closest baseline for comparison:  Look at the PS1 silencer is 52 points (6 health) and the PS1 resistance xwing is 46 points (7 health, but 1 less evade dice).   The 6 point difference is strange, given that they are pretty close to being the same ship.  The silencer's ship ability is strong, but so is the resistance x-wing's ability to add a HLC for 4 points.  

You could also compare Blackout (64 points - meh pilot ability) to Nien (59 points - amazing ability).  It seems that either Nien is under costed, or Blackout is a tad overpriced.

With regard to the Tie-SF, either the gunner needs to come down a few points (6-7 points is appropriate).

The Tie FOs should come down 1-3 points each, with the top end pilots coming down 3 points, and the bottom generics coming down 1 point. 

The Upsilons, assuming the other ships get point drops, should go up by 2 points across the board.

 

i agreee with all of your points!! 

im starting with with blackout, optics, fanatical 

and tavson 

captain phasam 

Quickdraw 

spec gunnner 

fanatical, fcs

 

 

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On 6/3/2019 at 7:43 PM, RunnerAZ said:

FO needs a bit of help - it's unfortunate that they need to lean on the Ups so much.

The silencers could stand to drop a point or two.  The inability to take an Evade action really hurts their survivability. 

Further, the overpriced nature is apparent when you compare two ships with similar dials and similar health - I am using the PS1 ships since they provide the closest baseline for comparison:  Look at the PS1 silencer is 52 points (6 health) and the PS1 resistance xwing is 46 points (7 health, but 1 less evade dice).   The 6 point difference is strange, given that they are pretty close to being the same ship.  The silencer's ship ability is strong, but so is the resistance x-wing's ability to add a HLC for 4 points.  

You could also compare Blackout (64 points - meh pilot ability) to Nien (59 points - amazing ability).  It seems that either Nien is under costed, or Blackout is a tad overpriced.

With regard to the Tie-SF, either the gunner needs to come down a few points (6-7 points is appropriate).

The Tie FOs should come down 1-3 points each, with the top end pilots coming down 3 points, and the bottom generics coming down 1 point. 

The Upsilons, assuming the other ships get point drops, should go up by 2 points across the board.

 

i agreee with all of your points!! 

im starting with with blackout, optics, fanatical 

and tavson 

captain phasam 

Quickdraw 

spec gunnner 

fanatical, fcs

 

 

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2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Maybe try 6x Alpha Squadron in FlyCasual and see if you still feel that way? At I1 they get Initiative-Killed all the time so it's hard to classify them as an alpha strike per se. Either they take the evade to try to survive and don't have offensive mods or they take a focus to try to stay alive and most of them still don't have offensive mods. Averaging 1.5 hits each against a 2 agility chassis leaves their damage output quite low compared to something like a Howl swarm, and has nowhere near the survivability that Del and Iden give.

Also keep in mind that because of that, a 6 interceptor list actually means a 5 interceptor list 😛

I'm going to disagree here. Generics are the baseline of the game, while unique pilots just add a fun twist. Generics should all be viable, and each in their own niche. Some lists need a cheap blocker. Some need a mid-level support ship. Others just one more ordnance platform and still others just one more 3-primary or turret attack. I definitely think it's possible to make all generics viable in their own niches.

That said, the idea that the Aggressor should be the go-to filler ship is kind of... mind-boggling? For certain lists, yes, the coverage or double-tap an aggressor provides is just the thing. But thematically speaking, the empire had by far the highest quantities of TIE/ln fighters. If anything, that should be the default filler. After that, they had enormous numbers of interceptors and quite a lot of bombers, which should also make decent filler. Every other kind of TIE (in both Canon and Legends) was experimental by nature and limited to specific times and places. The striker, aggressor, punisher, defender, advanced v1 and x1, etc. are all experimental craft with specifically intended purposes. I'm fine with them being good filler if you need those specific things; after all, the Empire is the toolkit faction - they have a ship for every job. But my argument is that the go-to filler chassis should be, in order: TIE/ln, TIE/in, TIE/sa.

I'll have to disagree here. In a 200 point skirmish game, this game is about ACES,. Because the limited number of bodies in the field, the value of each individual ship is greater. In epic games, the value of extra generic ships goes up as you can field more ships.

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1 minute ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

u think the int 6 pilot are getting points increases?

Yeah, and many I5 as well.

Likely exceptions being Boba, Poe, Fenn (both), Redline, Dengar, Resistance Han, Rey, and Kylo.

Amounts probably vary by chassis and meta-ubiquity.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Yeah, and many I5 as well.

Likely exceptions being Boba, Poe, Fenn (both), Redline, Dengar, Resistance Han, Rey, and Kylo.

Amounts probably vary by chassis and meta-ubiquity.

Dengar will go down a few points most likely. He is the only barely playable jump5K right now. Boba most likely stays and the rest listed here seem about right. Hope Fenn goes down if anything. Hes amazing but hard to keep on the table.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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On 6/6/2019 at 6:50 PM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Dengar will go down a few points most likely. He is the only barely playable jump5K right now. Boba most likely stays and the rest listed here seem about right. Hope Fenn goes down if anything. Hes amazing but hard to keep on the table.

Maybe they will add a mod slot to the fangs ? It would surley help Fenn.

I don't think Fenn will go down, because the list of 4 fangs with Fenn has won a few tourneys.

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12 minutes ago, Silver_leader said:

Maybe they will add a mod slot to the fangs ? It would surley help Fenn.

I don't think Fenn will go down, because the list of 4 fangs with Fenn has won a few tourneys.

concordia dawn is too strong for that but id dearly love to see a mod slot for fangs.

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Posted (edited)

I highly doubt we're going to see a cost hike in the imo already well scaled Aethersprite. Sure that's Mace and Lumy, but also Ani & Obi

So idk about i4 meta, esp when sigma squaddies and rebel beef needs addressing 

 

Also I'm fearing a passive sensor meta and hoping it'll be fine 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2019 at 9:14 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Yeah, and many I5 as well.

Likely exceptions being Boba, Poe, Fenn (both), Redline, Dengar, Resistance Han, Rey, and Kylo.

Amounts probably vary by chassis and meta-ubiquity.

I doubt we'll see such large scale changes. Probably few points for the most commonly used one like Vader, Soontir or Wedge, but I don't think we'll see Rebel Han or Anakin go up in points.

Edited by Pink_Viking

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