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FriendofYoda

Point Changes - They're Coming!

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Posted (edited)

I think we can see FFG doing some "experimentation" with point costs in the newer factions

This is why we get the bizarre Torrent/7th fleet arc generic/vulture droid pricing, as well as the VERY conservative FO pricing

apart from the ARC (though it's also changed...medium base) FFG is dealing with weirdo (re: new) ships, as even the SF and Silencer are vastly different from their 1st edition incarnations. I can see why they'd be super weary of a six-health Autothrusters Silencer, and even the small base sort-of-aux-arc SF. This is especially when they have mini-expertise in faction. 

So, I think caution was warranted and now hopefully reversible. That said, I do hope the Silencer remains more expensive than the T70 as it's VASTLY more maneuverable even if I believe they're both pretty overcosted (at least at lower initiatives where their maneuverability is not so easily exploited) 

 

fingers crossed that FFG picks up on a logical price system that takes pilot ability + chassis + initiative into account. They've actually done it in some cases (the fixed TIE bomber), so here's hoping

 

 

as an aside, fanatical SF might really enjoy passive sensors...

Edited by ficklegreendice

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As to Silencer caution, just look at their prices at release.  All of them went down 4 points, except Kylo and Blackout who both went down 6 points.  Think for a moment on how conservative Silencer pricing was at first, if after a 4 point drop, they're still not cheap enough relative to other factions.

Personally, I almost would rather leave Silencers where they are, and bring other stuff *up* a bit.  And that probably means nearly all the stuff, even some stuff which is fine.  A "nerf everything" round of pricing probably wouldn't be as much fun as buffs, however, even if both are pretty similar in terms of net result.  One benefit, however, of a nerf-everything is that it does less to muck up breakpoints.

As to the relationship between Silencers and T-70s, the maneuverability is real, the Silencer never has to worry about S-Foils, and--despite what usernames imply about agility--statistically a bit tougher than T-70s.  But it's 6 points difference between Blues and Seinar Jaemus Engineers, 8 points between Black Squadron and First Order Test Pilot, 8 points between Ello Asty and Blackout.  Is 6-8 points the right difference?  Again pulling up the statistics (in this case, the durability numbers http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/ship_durability/?d=AwAAAAAAwBgA&a=AgIAAA ), the E-Wing is about halfway between a Starwing and a U-Wing--that is, a Silencer is about halfway between a T-70 with and without a Hull or Shield Upgrade.  So if the toughness is worth 2-3 points, how much is the maneuverability?  I guess FFG thinks it's 3-6 points, given the differences between them.  In some ways, it does't seem wrong that the gap grows as Initiative does.  Higher initiative ships can leverage that maneuverability more.  I wouldn't mind a slightly smaller gap, however, but not too much.  I feel like the Silencer is worth at least 4 points more than a T-70.

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On 5/31/2019 at 2:04 PM, FriendofYoda said:

So what are everyone's top 3 hopes for the changes?

1. Sigma Ace goes up 5, Echo goes up 1, Whisper stays the same.

2. Leia goes up to 6.

3. Vynder doesn't get nerfed.

4-10. Magva and Saw come down a bit, Dash/YT-2400 comes down a bit, JM5Ks stay where they are and FFG actually fixes them, Lancer comes down, VTG stays where it is while generic Scurrgs go up, Kihraxz come down, and for the love Illicit upgrades get vastly less expensive for Scum - I'm talkin 0-2 points for any given Illicit.

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On 6/2/2019 at 10:18 AM, svelok said:

With the power of metawing...

https://meta.listfortress.com/ships?ranking_start=2019-01-28&ranking_end=2019-06-01&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=5&format_id=&

These are the ships used  in 10 or fewer lists at system opens since the points change:

  • YT-2400 Light Freighter
  • TIE/ag Aggressor
  • M3-A Interceptor
  • Auzituck Gunship
  • YV-666 Light Freighter
  • HWK-290 Light Freighter
  • M12-L Kimogila Fighter
  • TIE Advanced v1
  • Quadrijet Transfer Spacetug
  • Belbullab-22 Starfighter
  • VT-49 Decimator
  • Z-95-AF4 Headhunter
  • Attack Shuttle
  • VCX-100 Light Freighter
  • Scavenged YT-1300
  • HWK-290 Light Freighter
  • MG-100 StarFortress
  • G-1A Starfighter
  • JumpMaster 5000

10/19 are scum ships. But you have to take into account hyperspace format right? or is an Open always extended format?

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48 minutes ago, battlestarbill said:

At what points level do first order ties become usable? 

It's hard to say, it's not that they are overcosted it's more so that they are missing more varied and useful cards in faction. 

 

They start at 5 points more than an STD tie fighter and get a shield, lock action, 2 sloops, hard blue 2's and tech slot (anything I'm missing?). So they do get fantastic value from those points, they miss the group buffs from Howl and Iden, Sloane etc. 

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2 hours ago, battlestarbill said:

I keep wanting to shove midnight into my fo lists but the loss of juke really hurts. Fanatical and optics comes out to 50 points but not sure how I feel about it. 

Use Null and/or Scorch instead. Midnights not worth it. 

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14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

 I wouldn't mind a slightly smaller gap, however, but not too much.  I feel like the Silencer is worth at least 4 points more than a T-70.

Just wanted to say on this is that I think the value of  maneuverability goes up in conjunction with imitative.  Ie I would much rather have a low init pilot that is tough rather than a low init pilot who is maneuverable.    So for the low initiative T-70 and siliencer pilots the T-70 would win for me.

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Most of my suspected or hoped for changes have already been noted so I'll toss these out there.

1. My guess is that FFG was waiting to tweak points on most forces powers until after the Jedi took to the field. Some, possibly all except SNR, will see a reduction of some sort. 

2. When the Aethersprite was previewed I was guessing CLT's cost was baked into each pilot. I still think it should be something closer to that than the current point values. Keep the initiative scaling just markedly reduce the PV.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

2. When the Aethersprite was previewed I was guessing CLT's cost was baked into each pilot. I still think it should be something closer to that than the current point values. Keep the initiative scaling just markedly reduce the PV.

If I were in charge of Aethersprites, I feel like I might: {A} Reduce the base cost of all Aethersprites by 1 point, {B } Increase Delta 7B by 1 point (keeping scaling), {C} Reduce CLT in both total price and scaling rate, to be equal to Initiative (3 points on Init 3, 6 points on Init 6, etc).  End results:

  • Non-config Jedi (used as support or such) are a hair cheaper.
  • All Delta 7B builds would remain the same price as now. 
  • CLT JKs would be 41 points (to avoid the 5-ship breakpoint).
  • In general, CLT builds would be -2 points (relative to current prices) at Init 3, -3 points at Init 4, -4 points at Init 5, and -5 points at Init 6.

In total, CLT Anakin would be 65 instead of 78 points for 7B.  I think that might get some playtime, and probably wouldn't represent a problematic ship.  CLT seems like it's got a much higher skill floor.  Getting bullseye requires more force for Fine-Tuned Controls or more normal-actions used on boost/barrel roll.  A focus result vs a rolled die means either more force spent on red dice, more Focus actions than just Locks, or more luck to reroll the Focus into a hit.  At an 8 point savings, combined with the loss of the Mod slot, CLT vs 7B just doesn't seem worth it.  At 13 relative to 7B, maybe.

It'd also be interesting to see some of the CLT-specific synergies come out more.  Obi-Wan's ability seems like it would work well with them, so that you'll have a full Focus token for both offense and Defense, useful when throwing more raw green dice.  The Focus token from Darth Sidious's coordinate makes more sense, too, in a world where CLT gets more play. 

(repost from a month ago in a different thread, but it all still makes sense to me)

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, william1134 said:

Just wanted to say on this is that I think the value of  maneuverability goes up in conjunction with imitative.  Ie I would much rather have a low init pilot that is tough rather than a low init pilot who is maneuverable.    So for the low initiative T-70 and siliencer pilots the T-70 would win for me.

Lower initiative but higher mobility pilots are much better at blocking and setting up killboxes.

Edited by Pink_Viking

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Pink_Viking said:

Lower initiative but higher mobility pilots are much better at blocking and setting up killboxes, both 

Also, T-70s aren't tougher than Silencers, on a per-ship basis.  Green dice can be... unforgiving... but 6 HP behind 3 agility statistically is tougher than 7 HP behind 2 agility.

That's an awkward comparison, however.  T-70s are cheaper, so can run 4 per list with defensive upgrades like R2 Astromech (seems nice for Blues) or Heroic (Red Vets with Heroic close the toughness gap reasonably).  However, if we're factoring in upgrades, Fanatical comes back in, and that's considerable offense, allowing either double-mods with Locks, or free spending of Focus on defense, which brings a Silencer back up.

*edit*

To illustrate, check out the Quickbuilds.  BB-Astromech Blues aren't as maneuverable or tough as SJEngineers for the same 2 threat.  I feel like I'd generally rather have a Silencer than a T-70 at equal threat, if I'm just working from existing Quickbuilds.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)

1) Jumpmaster buff in some form. Personally I like the bad dial as it allows for the ship to be cheaper and thus have better stats at their cost. The problem is they are not better even when you dont consider the dial. However I think they need more then just a points decrease.

2) All Generic ships that dont allow for another ship to be added to go down a point or two.

3) It isnt a "points"adjustment but I would like as much of a hyperspace ship change up as possible. It would be cool if they changed 25% of ships every 2 months to keep it fresh and no one every "solving" the puzzle of list building 

Edited by K13R4N
There/Their

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pa Weasley said:

My guess is that FFG was waiting to tweak points on most forces powers until after the Jedi took to the field. Some, possibly all except SNR, will see a reduction of some sort. 

I wouldn't even make an exception for SNR; I could see it coming down 10-20% so it actually becomes a choice again.

I'm also very happy with where gunner Luke is. Just hits that price point where he might be worth it but usually isn't, just in the field of "temptation". SNR should be similar, but for 32 on I6 and 24 on I5 it just isn't. Maybe something like 6-6-8-13-18-26 would be better, but that could be too cheap.

But either way I see:

Instinctive Aim - 1

Heightened Perception - 1

Predictive Shot - 2

Brilliant Evasion - 2

Sense - 4

And then Hate by agility value at 10/8/5/2 for 0/1/2/3

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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8 hours ago, K13R4N said:

1) Jumpmaster buff in some form. Personally I like the bad dial as it allows for the ship to be cheaper and thus have better stats at their cost. The problem is they are not better even when you dont consider the dial. However I think they need more then just a points decrease.

2) All Generic ships that dont allow for another ship to be added to go down a point or two.

3) It isnt a "points"adjustment but I would like as much of a hyperspace ship change up as possible. It would be cool if they changed 25% of ships every 2 months to keep it fresh and no one every "solving" the puzzle of list building 

jump5k is going to get a buff in form of points reduction and potentially extra slot id say. maybe the title will even get a look at and we could see dengar or manaroo making it back to the tables again. The cheap torp carrier days are over, at least for jumpmasters... FFG isnt going to make them anywhere near as good as they were in 1.0.

in theory a generic jumpmaster could start to see some use as a dedicated blocker...but its going to need some pretty big buffs first.

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6 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

jump5k is going to get a buff in form of points reduction and potentially extra slot id say. maybe the title will even get a look at and we could see dengar or manaroo making it back to the tables again. The cheap torp carrier days are over, at least for jumpmasters... FFG isnt going to make them anywhere near as good as they were in 1.0.

in theory a generic jumpmaster could start to see some use as a dedicated blocker...but its going to need some pretty big buffs first.

Manaroo is perma-eternally-dead unless she gets a hard errata. It's a lousy ability in the first place, but the R1 restriction on that chassis makes it utterly, entirely, worthlessly garbage.

Dengar is actually kind of good. Many expect a gunner and/or sensor slot to be coming, which could help a lot. I'm hoping for a full-on errata of the title to add a 3 front arc (and maybe one of Manaroo's ability).

Contracted Scouts will never be good blockers until they get their talent back for Expert Handling, and FFG seems hesitant to pull that trigger. Even then, their firepower is so miserable that I doubt they would make the table.

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16 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I wouldn't even make an exception for SNR; I could see it coming down 10-20% so it actually becomes a choice again.

I'm also very happy with where gunner Luke is. Just hits that price point where he might be worth it but usually isn't, just in the field of "temptation". SNR should be similar, but for 32 on I6 and 24 on I5 it just isn't. Maybe something like 6-6-8-13-18-26 would be better, but that could be too cheap.

But either way I see:

Instinctive Aim - 1

Heightened Perception - 1

Predictive Shot - 2

Brilliant Evasion - 2

Sense - 4

And then Hate by agility value at 10/8/5/2 for 0/1/2/3

8p Hate for 1 Agi ships? I hope it doesn't go up that much!

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7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Manaroo is perma-eternally-dead unless she gets a hard errata. It's a lousy ability in the first place, but the R1 restriction on that chassis makes it utterly, entirely, worthlessly garbage.

Dengar is actually kind of good. Many expect a gunner and/or sensor slot to be coming, which could help a lot. I'm hoping for a full-on errata of the title to add a 3 front arc (and maybe one of Manaroo's ability).

Contracted Scouts will never be good blockers until they get their talent back for Expert Handling, and FFG seems hesitant to pull that trigger. Even then, their firepower is so miserable that I doubt they would make the table.

FCS on Dengar along with r3 would be nice as you can excute his red moves and still have mods which is a big problem for him atm. Dengar w/ FCS/R3/Expert Handerling/CC/Title at 74 (Currently would be 82) would be nice.

CC - Is 5 - Down 3 - New 2
Title - Is 8 - Down 2 - New 6
Dengar Is 58 - Down 3 - New 55

Would this be enough for him or would he need something bigger? (Title adding primary arc ect.)

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Posted (edited)

My hope: Interceptor generics come down 1 pt each.

6x Alpha or 5x Saber with 5 point bid? Sign me up!

Just don’t do this for the I1 strikers too or the iconic Interceptor will still be outshone by its kid sister :(

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My hope: Interceptor generics come down 1 pt each.

6x Alpha or 5x Saber with 5 point bid? Sign me up!

Just don’t do this for the I1 strikers too or the iconic Interceptor will still be outshone by its kid sister :(

So it's ok for the tie-striker to be unplayable? Seriously, i loved playing the striker even at the tail end of V1, but I just can't find the fun in that now. They're so fragile and cost almost as much as a barrage bomber, while being mostly worse in every aspect...

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10 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

So it's ok for the tie-striker to be unplayable? Seriously, i loved playing the striker even at the tail end of V1, but I just can't find the fun in that now. They're so fragile and cost almost as much as a barrage bomber, while being mostly worse in every aspect...

Their chances of getting 1-shotted are astronomically lower, though. That 1 hp makes a huge difference, as does pre-maneuver reposition. I think they’re well worth it as is, especially with Sloane or mines/bombs once those are affordable.

 I could probably be convinced otherwise. They really do have a different niche than Interceptors. I personally don’t feel like spamming them is the answer for Strikers, but again I could be wrong.

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