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Flyingbrick

Aces or swarm beef lists. Is one better than the other?

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I have been wondering what archetype has had a longer run of being more successful over the long run as far as tournaments go?  I know that on a personal preference level it is up to the player as what is more rewarding if they win with it. I know personally i will try either one depending on what i felt like at the time. 

But what does everyone else think? 

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Listfortress is a great tool into this subject true enough. however misguided this is i always thought it always favored whatever the popular broke list was at the moment. Aka quad phantoms.  If this was incorrect, i would be most willing to admit this.

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The only thing I find very hard about aces is that if you make 1 big mistake, maybe your ace will die right there (ex: a blocked soontir who rolls 4 blanks on a torp shot). That's why I am trying to bring aces with at least 5 hull/shield, for trying to evade potential mistakes or bad reading of the opponents moves.

Last tournament, I played with Poe, and my opponents tried to pin him down first. Even if they succeded, the time they have passed to get him out of the table gave me the time to kill without being bothered with all the rest of my list.

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Posted (edited)

Numbers and math are always more sustainable over a whole day of swiss over "better" decisions and "out playing" people. Which leads to i4+ ships with great jousting power and enough health to have a mathematical low chance to die to an opposing joust will generally prevail. Having 4 ships to fit in that list is even better because then you're not losing 1/3 of a list, only 1/4. Also helps to have a tool in the arsenal that says even if you chose incorrectly you can turn around really easily and build another killbox (Leia) which means much less maneuver based consequences. 

Edited by RStan

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Posted (edited)

Much as I LOVE the idea of passive sensors making low I actually relevant, I do think Hyena sensor spam has the highest potential to "break" the game out of all wave 4 things (minus yet unrevealed resistance shenanigans)

They're (probably) cheap, can Kraken up to full mods; spam ordnance fire 

Might be an issue; will have to see 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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45 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Much as I LOVE the idea of passive sensors making low I actually relevant, I do think Hyena sensor spam has the highest potential to "break" the game out of all wave 4 things (minus yet unrevealed resistance shenanigans)

They're (probably) cheap, can Kraken up to full mods; spam ordnance fire 

Might be an issue; will have to see 

 

Separatists droids being an issue for being too powerful...sign me up :)

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9 hours ago, Flyingbrick said:

I do look forward to seeing what passive sensors will do for the meta.

Push the factions with the sensor ships (some have far more options here). Hopefully it is not too cheap, otherwise the ship pool will be really shallow!

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Posted (edited)

Yeah not sure what sensors should be priced at 

Let's take a VERY speculative look because I'm bored

Let's say an I 1 Hyena is 27 points max (comparable to Torrent or energy shell Vulture) 

Let's give it concussions up to 33, and put passives at 2 for 35 point total 

Now, how does this compare to ye ole barrage bombers (34)? Pretty **** decently, I'd have to say, especially because Kraken is easier to use than Jonus. 

But they've also got 1 less hull, -1 initiative, calc, and a ******* weirdo dial

Granted 27 is like worst case scenario pricing (hyena really oughta be 25 given statline), but still 

 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Let's give it concussions up to 33, and put passives at 2 for 35 point total 

Now, how does this compare to ye ole barrage bombers (34)? Pretty **** decently, I'd have to say, especially because Kraken is easier to use than Jonus. 

But they've also got 1 less hull, -1 initiative, calc, and a ******* weirdo dial

Some thoughts:

  • Generic Strikers are 3/2/4 with focus and ailerons, for 34 points. And overpriced.
  • 3 dice with lock + 1 calc averages 2.645 hits, vs 2.801 hits for 3 dice with focus and 2 rerolls. 
  • Ye Olden Barrages had 5 sets of Barrage, one of which was Jonus - that's 5x 3 dice with 2 rerolls and a focus each. Hyenas only get 3 calculates total from Kraken (unless you're paying quite a bit more than 35 points to give them Vulture calculate batteries).
  • In mathematically comparable terms: Jonus Bombers had a lock and 2 calculates each - 5x Hyenas would get a lock and 3/5ths of a calculate each.
  • In the example of 35 points, plus 10 for Kraken, 5x Hyenas would be at 185. That'll pay for 32C, to carry Kraken around, and maybe some init bumps but not much else.
  • In an extreme example of 24 point Hyenas: +2 for passive, +6 for concussions is 32 each. Times five is 160, plus 10 for Kraken, leaves 30 points - then that, minus whatever 32C costs. Enough for an ESC vulture, maybe, but not enough for a 6th Hyena.
  • The Hyenas are much easier to initiative kill than Bombers, given both the lower base init and the one fewer hull. Compare Bombers and Torrents- that sixth hull is annoyingly often enough to fire one more shot off, or to soak one more shot to kill.
  • Hyenas lack the fast k-turn to stay on target and the 3 banks to block things or come around rocks at high speed, which limits the number of "roles" they can fill in any given game.
  • Bombers that took a focus but got arc dodged can spend it defensively; arc dodged passive Hyenas can opt to take a calc but only a calc and only when they engage (which will usually be after things have shot at them).
  • Jonus + 4 Bombers, all with barrage, is still a legal list at 198 points. 32C with Kraken + 4 i1 Hyenas, all with passive + concs, at the 35pt price would most likely be only 5-8 points cheaper - but lower init, lower hp, lower damage, and less flexible.

this started out as like 3 bullet points but sort of turned into an essay

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