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SirCormac

Why does Jyn suck?

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On 5/31/2019 at 11:51 AM, MasterShake2 said:

Jyn's defining feature is being the cheapest courage 3. Pretty useful if you bump into range 4 suppression spam.

And being the only Range 3 commander for Rebels (Veers being the only range 3 commander for Imperials), and having the second best melee for Rebel commander’s...also gets dodge and aim for a single action, meaning she can be both offensive and maintaining maximum defense. 

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I think the combination of durability and infiltrate means that what she wants to do is offer your opponent two options- devote less resources to the objective, or not enough to deal with jyn. She's pretty good at shooting sniper teams, and she takes their fire pretty well.

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My issue with Jyn is that she is an operative playing commander. On it's own Jyn's ability suite is awesome, but flawed. You can't take advantage of quick thinking if you're already gaining any substantial benefit of danger sense at the beginning of a round.

As a commander, unless you plan on taking advantage of infiltrate, she doesn't do enough to compete with Luke or Leia as a general purpose commander. Heck Han is her primary competition for what they do, but Han's defense requires little to no set up, has better offence if multiple units are in range, and has command cards that don't just buff the commander (Main reason why I think Jyn should've been an operative).

Again I don't think Jyn is inherently bad as a unit, just bad as a commander.

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I ran Jyn with a generic commander so she could just run around the board and act more like an Operative. She ended up winning the game for me (Breakthrough, with Chewie and a squad of Wookiees stopping Vader/Snowies from making it across one side of the board.) by being the only unit able to get across due to her infiltrate.

Mostly took down a full unit of Stormtroopers by herself, and cleaned up half of a mother by charging into them. Overall I think she is fun but maybe not always the best choice for her points. 

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Gonna bet Cassian will be designed to work very well with her. Not sure if that will improve Jyn at all. Im suspecting hes the next rebel operative to be announced when the next ones are....

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, crx3800 said:

Gonna bet Cassian will be designed to work very well with her. Not sure if that will improve Jyn at all. Im suspecting hes the next rebel operative to be announced when the next ones are....

Nothing would make Jyn "better" because it seems everyone's complaints are her point cost.

However, Cassian would need at least Teamwork: Jyn Erso innately, so she could actually make strong use of Quick Thinking. This would also supplement Trust Goes Both Ways because then you would have two units (Cassian + any one you choose) that would have Teamwork. That turn could set up a very strong push with Jyn performing Quick Thinking, and handing out 3 Aim and Dodge tokens to herself, Cassian, and a third unit.

Cassian would also likely need to have Infiltrate, so you could deploy them together, and maybe even have a lesser version of Danger Sense.

If they make Cassian, he should have a Pistol/Sniper Config upgrade. The combination of a Sniper Config + Quick Thinking + Teamwork: Jyn Erso would be quite useful.

Again, not sure this would make Jyn better, but it would provide a pair to build around as Commander/Operative, and allow her to work more as a Commander via Quick Thinking and Teamwork.

Edited by manoftomorrow010

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I do think Danger Sense and Infiltrate was given more credit (in points cost) than it's really worth. That said, I've had several opponents deploy far enough up with infiltrate that I essentially only have one target on my first turn. Pretty easy to take down one model when it's the only thing your whole army can shoot at. 

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2 minutes ago, crx3800 said:

I do think Danger Sense and Infiltrate was given more credit (in points cost) than it's really worth. That said, I've had several opponents deploy far enough up with infiltrate that I essentially only have one target on my first turn. Pretty easy to take down one model when it's the only thing your whole army can shoot at. 

Yeah those two traits are really the only things you can point to when explaining her cost. They absolutely overestimated the strength of those abilities for Jyn and the Pathfinders as well.

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@manoftomorrow010
"Yeah those two traits are really the only things you can point to when explaining her cost. They absolutely overestimated the strength of those abilities for Jyn and the Pathfinders as well."

Well...

Scout 1 is worth 2 points, and that gives a speed 1 move after deployment (effectively increases the deployment zone by 4 inches on one unit).

How many speed 1 moves do you think it would take to get into the enemy's deployment zone? 10? 15?

i.e. How many points worth of scout 1's would be needed to reach 'anywhere' on the map? Well, it's approximately 4 inches of movement.

The board is 3 feet (36 inches) by 6 feet (72 inches); assuming the minimal deployment zone of 1 section from the edge, that's 30/4 and 66/4 worth of scout movement; or 7.5 scout-1 moves along the short edge and 16.5 scout-1 moves along the long edge.

16.5 x 2 = 33 points of potential value.

Granted, that valuation depends on 'where' you place the unit (Jyn or Pathfinders), but at its maximum, it's worth a huge chunk of their point cost.

Separately, Danger Sense can be more useful than Impervious for ranged attacks when it comes to Pierce, since with Danger Sense 4, you'd roll up to 4 additional dice vs say, Pierce 1 (Nothing has greater than pierce 1 for ranged attacks right?)

Most builds of Jyn/Pathfinders probably include Duck and Cover, so even at their worst, they basically have Impervious vs Pierce ranged attacks...that's pretty great, isn't it? Is it just the fact that the defense die is white not red? 

I know people often overreact to optics, but that's just 1 die facing worse than a red die. (16%) Not nothing, but also not nearly as bad as is often being made out.

Regarding Cassian, I'd expect him to have teamwork with K2so (or vice versa), not Jyn. 

For future releases; It'd be fun to have an operative team duo of Cassian and K2 and that might serve as a counterpoint to a bounty hunter duo of Zuckuss and 4-LOM.

Although personally I'd much rather get Dengar and Lando (I mean, sure we only have Lando doing ground combat in Cloud City and the Solo movie...but c'mon!)

Other note: Is it weird or cool that 4-LOM is basically a C-3PO droid chassis with a head that looks like Zuckuss's species on it? I kind of like that idea that verious species would have customized robots that more closely resemble them, but that's what normal is.

@crx3800
"I do think Danger Sense and Infiltrate was given more credit (in points cost) than it's really worth. That said, I've had several opponents deploy far enough up with infiltrate that I essentially only have one target on my first turn. Pretty easy to take down one model when it's the only thing your whole army can shoot at."

Wisdom would seem to dictate NOT to infiltrate in a position where the 'entire' enemy army can concentrate fire. I mean, I think there's a lot of potential to miss-play with Infiltrate, like to just completely tank your strategy, but there's also a huge potential for turn 1 control of key locations on the game board.


Incidentally, Jyn deals 1.625 with sharpshooter 1 and pierce 1 at range 3; 2.125 at range 2; and 2.5 + Suppressive in melee.
Pathfinders w/Bistan (2.125) are 3.625 @ range 4 (!) with impact 1/ion 1; 5.125 @ range 3; 5.625 @ ranges 1-2
w/Pao (1.25) is 2.75 @ range 4; 4.25 @ range 3; 4.75 @ ranges 1-2

That's pretty great, exceeding Fleet Troopers + Scatter gun results at close range, Z-6 squad at range 3, and...well there's nothing for rebels at range 4, so it's pretty crazy that nobody would salivate over that on its own merits? 

Like, a DLT-19 is only 1.75 at range 4...

A Pathfinder squad running bistan (32)/pao (22)  and with the A-300 upgrade (6) eats a DLT-19's lunch (that's for 27 or 17 points more than the DLT squad); which....well that just seems pretty good. And if you're up against Rebels, and they don't bring Pathfinders themselves, what are they going to do at range 4? (Sniper teams? Meh, Danger Sense provides plenty of mitigation, and regular units can bring along a medic or two to mitigate the earliest shots, if you really want them to...or you could just place the unit such that there's no line of sight beyond range 4).

Even just a plain old Pathfinder squad + the A-300 upgrade is dealing 1.5 at range 4; that's not bad for only 74 points considering a Rebel Commando strike team using a DHL-sniper is 44 to throw half as many dice for .5 fewer results on average

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

@manoftomorrow010
"Yeah those two traits are really the only things you can point to when explaining her cost. They absolutely overestimated the strength of those abilities for Jyn and the Pathfinders as well."

Well...

Scout 1 is worth 2 points, and that gives a speed 1 move after deployment (effectively increases the deployment zone by 4 inches on one unit).

How many speed 1 moves do you think it would take to get into the enemy's deployment zone? 10? 15?

i.e. How many points worth of scout 1's would be needed to reach 'anywhere' on the map? Well, it's approximately 4 inches of movement.

The board is 3 feet (36 inches) by 6 feet (72 inches); assuming the minimal deployment zone of 1 section from the edge, that's 30/4 and 66/4 worth of scout movement; or 7.5 scout-1 moves along the short edge and 16.5 scout-1 moves along the long edge.

16.5 x 2 = 33 points of potential value.

Granted, that valuation depends on 'where' you place the unit (Jyn or Pathfinders), but at its maximum, it's worth a huge chunk of their point cost.

Separately, Danger Sense can be more useful than Impervious for ranged attacks when it comes to Pierce, since with Danger Sense 4, you'd roll up to 4 additional dice vs say, Pierce 1 (Nothing has greater than pierce 1 for ranged attacks right?)

Most builds of Jyn/Pathfinders probably include Duck and Cover, so even at their worst, they basically have Impervious vs Pierce ranged attacks...that's pretty great, isn't it? Is it just the fact that the defense die is white not red? 

I know people often overreact to optics, but that's just 1 die facing worse than a red die. (16%) Not nothing, but also not nearly as bad as is often being made out.

Regarding Cassian, I'd expect him to have teamwork with K2so (or vice versa), not Jyn. 

For future releases; It'd be fun to have an operative team duo of Cassian and K2 and that might serve as a counterpoint to a bounty hunter duo of Zuckuss and 4-LOM.

Although personally I'd much rather get Dengar and Lando (I mean, sure we only have Lando doing ground combat in Cloud City and the Solo movie...but c'mon!)

Other note: Is it weird or cool that 4-LOM is basically a C-3PO droid chassis with a head that looks like Zuckuss's species on it? I kind of like that idea that verious species would have customized robots that more closely resemble them, but that's what normal is.

@crx3800
"I do think Danger Sense and Infiltrate was given more credit (in points cost) than it's really worth. That said, I've had several opponents deploy far enough up with infiltrate that I essentially only have one target on my first turn. Pretty easy to take down one model when it's the only thing your whole army can shoot at."

Wisdom would seem to dictate NOT to infiltrate in a position where the 'entire' enemy army can concentrate fire. I mean, I think there's a lot of potential to miss-play with Infiltrate, like to just completely tank your strategy, but there's also a huge potential for turn 1 control of key locations on the game board.


Incidentally, Jyn deals 1.625 with sharpshooter 1 and pierce 1 at range 3; 2.125 at range 2; and 2.5 + Suppressive in melee.
Pathfinders w/Bistan (2.125) are 3.625 @ range 4 (!) with impact 1/ion 1; 5.125 @ range 3; 5.625 @ ranges 1-2
w/Pao (1.25) is 2.75 @ range 4; 4.25 @ range 3; 4.75 @ ranges 1-2

That's pretty great, exceeding Fleet Troopers + Scatter gun results at close range, Z-6 squad at range 3, and...well there's nothing for rebels at range 4, so it's pretty crazy that nobody would salivate over that on its own merits? 

Like, a DLT-19 is only 1.75 at range 4...

A Pathfinder squad running bistan (32)/pao (22)  and with the A-300 upgrade (6) eats a DLT-19's lunch (that's for 27 or 17 points more than the DLT squad); which....well that just seems pretty good. And if you're up against Rebels, and they don't bring Pathfinders themselves, what are they going to do at range 4? (Sniper teams? Meh, Danger Sense provides plenty of mitigation, and regular units can bring along a medic or two to mitigate the earliest shots, if you really want them to...or you could just place the unit such that there's no line of sight beyond range 4).

Even just a plain old Pathfinder squad + the A-300 upgrade is dealing 1.5 at range 4; that's not bad for only 74 points considering a Rebel Commando strike team using a DHL-sniper is 44 to throw half as many dice for .5 fewer results on average

I certainly don't disagree with your points and math is indisputable, but the problem lies in the fact that those abilities, while mathematically good on paper, don't really carry their weight in practice. I've had Jyn melted in 2 attacks while rolling 4 extra dice each time.

It's also too easy to either box Jyn/Paths out of infiltrating somewhere extremely advantageous, or, swarming them if you infiltrate too early so that you don't get boxed out. 9/10 the infiltrate distance is negligible and not that much better than Recon Intel. I wanted nothing more for the Rebels than Jyn and Pathfinders to be really awesome, but I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

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4-LOM looks like Z-3PO cause of an old Hollywood trick known as “saving money”.  This is why Dengar wears a snowtrooper breastplate and the TIE helmet is a mashup X-Wing and stormtrooper helmet. It’s pretty cool I think. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/21/2019 at 6:17 PM, TauntaunScout said:

4-LOM looks like Z-3PO cause of an old Hollywood trick known as “saving money”.  This is why Dengar wears a snowtrooper breastplate and the TIE helmet is a mashup X-Wing and stormtrooper helmet. It’s pretty cool I think. 

Don't forget where the Vipers in Battlestar Galactica came from! Ol' X wings with just a little change to the wings. 

Edited by crx3800

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