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Library Access and Bait And Switch Nerfed

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Posted (edited)

Someone needed to start this post. The latest rules updated added an errata for both Library Access and Bait and Switch that cause both to be less powerful. 

Quote

Bait and Switch (COTA 267) Should read: “Play: If your opponent has more A than you, steal 1A. Repeat the preceding effect if your opponent still has more A than you.”

 

Library Access (COTA 115) Should read: “Play: For the remainder of the turn, each time you play another card, draw a card. Purge Library Access.”

 

Library Access can no longer combo into itself, and Bait and Switch can only trigger twice. Overall, I think this is a good thing, but I do feel sorry for those people who spent a lot of money on infinite combo decks. 

The reason why I think this is good is because they said in an interview that they had no plans to rotate a set out of "Standard" to borrow terms from other games. This would have created a real potential of Library Access infinite combos to be the tournament meta for the entire life of the product. This problem would only be made worse by the existence of legacy cards. This would not be healthy for the longevity of the product. 

 

Edit: Article was added: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/5/29/forging-the-future/

Edited by Revert

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I’ve encountered the library access/reverse time combo, and it’s just silly. The errata is right on the money that the time to resolve on its own is unfun enough to warrant the change. 

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I’ll be the one to say it: LA - gross over reaction. Now every deck that has one is being punished whether it’s good or not.

Make it an alpha, say it doesn’t go in the discard pile until the end of the turn. Say any card that retrieves cards from the discard pile cannot be used to retrieve LA. Do anything else other than purge it.

Nope one and done. 

I don’t like it but what’s done is done. I only have two decks that have it in them and one is fun but bad and the other is good but Logos is actually the weak spot of the deck.

I think I like the B&S nerf but I don’t really know. I would think steal at least 3 but 2 will be fine. I only just got a deck that had one in it and I’ve only played one game with it. 

Drummernaut fix is just LOL.

End rant, and back to AoA hype. gg.

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9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I’ll be the one to say it: LA - gross over reaction. Now every deck that has one is being punished whether it’s good or not.

Make it an alpha, say it doesn’t go in the discard pile until the end of the turn. Say any card that retrieves cards from the discard pile cannot be used to retrieve LA. Do anything else other than purge it.

Nope one and done. 

I don’t like it but what’s done is done. I only have two decks that have it in them and one is fun but bad and the other is good but Logos is actually the weak spot of the deck

I couldn't agree more.
Purging is jsut bad for a card that just fizzles out most of the time unless you prepared for it hard or you have a bonus special combo like timetravellers and wild wormholes already in hand.

Making it an alpha would mean that it can't be re-used in the turn, but could be brought back in hand for a subsequent turn and couldn't be cumulated: Perfect.

Making it count as having its effect ongoing during the whole turn, and thus only discarded at the end of the turn, would make it harder to bring back to hand with nepthe for exemple and wouldn't be able to cumulate the effect: Very good, simple changing a bit of  a rule.

 

 

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11 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Make it an alpha

 

That would require the card to be using a keyword before the keyword existed. Also, Logos already has 2 alpha cards, so making library access alpha might actually make it worse in tournaments than making it purge itself. In casual play, where games are longer, alpha is definitely the better way to handle this, but the article specifically called out that these changes were made for the tournament scene. 

 

2 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

Making it count as having its effect ongoing during the whole turn, and thus only discarded at the end of the turn, would make it harder to bring back to hand with nepthe for exemple and wouldn't be able to cumulate the effect: Very good, simple changing a bit of  a rule.

 

This would mean that you could play cards in the middle of other cards effects, which is not something that is currently allowed by the rules.

 

11 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

say it doesn’t go in the discard pile until the end of the turn.

 

This leaves people the opportunity to double library access through the use of mimicry. Their biggest problem with the combo (according to the article) was how long it took to do, not how reliable it was, so being able to do it at all is a problem.

 

12 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Say any card that retrieves cards from the discard pile cannot be used to retrieve LA.

 

This doesn't solve the problem with Reverse Time.

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Posted (edited)

I like the nerfs on Bait and Switch and Library Access. There were other ways to go about it and some might have been better but these erratas are justifiable and they fix the problems. Alpha on LA was an option but I guess they preferred not to fix a set 1 card with a set 2 mechanic. Otherwise, it seems they tried to keep the changes to the original text to a minimum.

What I really dislike is their solution to the maverick Pitlord. First of all, it's a very small problem as there are only 16 or so maverick Pitlords registered in non-Dis decks. But somehow they decided to break their rules for this. They added the clause that a player can't choose a house that is not on their identity card or on a card they control. This is ok but doesn't fix the problem. The Golden rule states that when a card text and a rule contradict, the card text takes precedence. So a Pitlord would still force you to choose Dis, even with the above rule change. Then they claim that the CANNOT vs MUST rule means that you can't choose Dis in this scenario (Maverick Pitlord, no Dis in deck). This doesn't work because a) that rule applies only when 2 card effects contradict, not card and rulebook, and b) Golden rule still would be in effect saying that the card text takes precedence. But according to the FAQ, somehow the Golden rule doesn't apply to Pitlord. This is a dangerous precedent. Which other rules trump card texts? How do we know?

This rules fiasco is baffling because they had a really easy way of solving this. They were errataing cards anyway, so just errata the house Pitlord refers to to be whatever house it is printed in. So a Brobnar Pitlord would make you only choose Brobnar. Then all Pitlords would be fun, powerful but tricky-to-play cards while now most of them are so and some rare instances are just over-the-top super powerful creatures with no drawback.

I really hope they change this ruling in the future.

Edited by Kalilei

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3 hours ago, Kalilei said:

I like the nerfs on Bait and Switch and Library Access. There were other ways to go about it and some might have been better but these erratas are justifiable and they fix the problems. Alpha on LA was an option but I guess they preferred not to fix a set 1 card with a set 2 mechanic. Otherwise, it seems they tried to keep the changes to the original text to a minimum.

What I really dislike is their solution to the maverick Pitlord. First of all, it's a very small problem as there are only 16 or so maverick Pitlords registered in non-Dis decks. But somehow they decided to break their rules for this. They added the clause that a player can't choose a house that is not on their identity card or on a card they control. This is ok but doesn't fix the problem. The Golden rule states that when a card text and a rule contradict, the card text takes precedence. So a Pitlord would still force you to choose Dis, even with the above rule change. Then they claim that the CANNOT vs MUST rule means that you can't choose Dis in this scenario (Maverick Pitlord, no Dis in deck). This doesn't work because a) that rule applies only when 2 card effects contradict, not card and rulebook, and b) Golden rule still would be in effect saying that the card text takes precedence. But according to the FAQ, somehow the Golden rule doesn't apply to Pitlord. This is a dangerous precedent. Which other rules trump card texts? How do we know?

This rules fiasco is baffling because they had a really easy way of solving this. They were errataing cards anyway, so just errata the house Pitlord refers to to be whatever house it is printed in. So a Brobnar Pitlord would make you only choose Brobnar. Then all Pitlords would be fun, powerful but tricky-to-play cards while now most of them are so and some rare instances are just over-the-top super powerful creatures with no drawback.

I really hope they change this ruling in the future.

It just bugs me in general that maverick versions of some cards do not update the house in the gametext on the original.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Simplegarak said:

It just bugs me in general that maverick versions of some cards do not update the house in the gametext on the original.

I believe Pitlord is the only card that appears as a maverick and refers to a specific house. This is because it slipped through the cracks. No maverick Pitlords were supposed to be printed. Richard Garfield talked about this in a podcast interview.

Garfield also talked how he wanted to print this kind of cards in the future so that the referred house was also shifted when mavericked.

Edited by Kalilei

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4 hours ago, Revert said:

Their biggest problem with the combo (according to the article) was how long it took to do, not how reliable it was, so being able to do it at all is a problem.

I can understand that point, but if you can only do it once per turn it won't take nearly as long. I've seen the decks that got it out there 4-5-6 times. That was a long turn.

I guess there's always the possibility that they will re-evaluate and errata the card again with an Alpha keyword. I still think that's the best solution, especially for decks like the one I use that doesn't have any feasible abusive combo for it whatsoever. You could even make the argument it was one of the only things it had going for it.

Like I said, the ruling is made. I don't have to like it but life moves on and I'm still hyped for AoA. Heading to my FLGS in a little bit and trying to keep myself from buying too many new decks at once haha!

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I agreed with the Control the Weak / Restringtus ruling, because it explained how the game interfaced with contradictory effects. The Maverick Pitlord errata is ugly (should just force the player to use the house the Maverick Pitlord is), but it's such a rare occurrence, I doubt I'll ever have to encounter one IRL. 

But the B&S and LA erratas are just terrible. They're straight-up power-level erratas, not a ruling on how the cards are supposed to work. Keyforge wasn't supposed to be like this. I thought the Chain system would allow broken cards to stay as-is and punish the decks that use them.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Kalilei said:

I believe Pitlord is the only card that appears as a maverick and refers to a specific house. This is because it slipped through the cracks. No maverick Pitlords were supposed to be printed. Richard Garfield talked about this in a podcast interview.

Garfield also talked how he wanted to print this kind of cards in the future so that the referred house was also shifted when mavericked.

Umm... Key Abduction ("return each Mars creature to hand") has maverick versions. For an example, the logos maverick version has 18 decks. Of those... 5 have the Mars house.

Other maverick cards...

  • Martian Makes Bad Allies ("purge each non-Mars creature from hand") 
  • Psychic Network ("steal... for each friendly ready Mars")
  • Orbital Bombardment ("Reveal any number of Mars cards...")
  • Blypyp ("The next Mars creature you play...")
  • Phylyx the Disintigrator ("...each other friendly Mars creature")
  • Tunk ("...another Mars creature...")

And that's looking at JUST Mars. Some could combo in interesting ways if you at least have Mars in the deck, but others (like Blypyp - 18 decks, only 7 have mars) are completely useless out of house. I haven't even bothered to check the other houses in detail but off the top of my head we also have... "Ritual of the Hunt" (omni: use untamed this turn). 7 decks out there have a Sanctum version of this card... 0 of them have untamed in it.

Edited by Simplegarak

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

Umm... Key Abduction ("return each Mars creature to hand") has maverick versions. For an example, the logos maverick version has 18 decks. Of those... 5 have the Mars house.

Other maverick cards...

  • Martian Makes Bad Allies ("purge each non-Mars creature from hand") 
  • Psychic Network ("steal... for each friendly ready Mars")
  • Orbital Bombardment ("Reveal any number of Mars cards...")
  • Blypyp ("The next Mars creature you play...")
  • Phylyx the Disintigrator ("...each other friendly Mars creature")
  • Tunk ("...another Mars creature...")

And that's looking at JUST Mars. Some could combo in interesting ways if you at least have Mars in the deck, but others (like Blypyp - 18 decks, only 7 have mars) are completely useless out of house. I haven't even bothered to check the other houses in detail but off the top of my head we also have... "Ritual of the Hunt" (omni: use untamed this turn). 7 decks out there have a Sanctum version of this card... 0 of them have untamed in it.

Also, I looked into this. I found no non-Mars decks that had Psychic Network, Orbital Bombardment or Blypyp*. There were some with Phylyx and some other cards. Honestly, there are too many cards to check but it seems they have allowed mavericks of cards that do their thing well enough even without their house (e.g. Commander Remiel) and not ones that would not work without it (e.g. Jehu the Bureacrat). At least Sneklifter, One Last Job, Wardrummer, Rock-Hurling Giant etc. don't appear without their house. I guess this was what Garfield was referring to with Pitlords.

*searched decksofkeyforge.com

Edited by Kalilei

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1 hour ago, Kalilei said:

Also, I looked into this. I found no non-Mars decks that had Psychic Network, Orbital Bombardment or Blypyp*. There were some with Phylyx and some other cards. Honestly, there are too many cards to check but it seems they have allowed mavericks of cards that do their thing well enough even without their house (e.g. Commander Remiel) and not ones that would not work without it (e.g. Jehu the Bureacrat). At least Sneklifter, One Last Job, Wardrummer, Rock-Hurling Giant etc. don't appear without their house. I guess this was what Garfield was referring to with Pitlords.

*searched decksofkeyforge.com

Using keyforge-compendium I found 5 decks with a shadows Jehu, only 2 of which have Sanctum. Though when I go to check some of those in the keyforge master vault the maverick shows up as "Begone" so apparently I stand corrected as having been fed false data.  Maybe the sites are weirding out. The blypyp results looks like they are also mislabeling the mavericks... 

So now who knows.

But I did find... TUNK!

https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/8447559d-e21c-42d5-a903-c85651ed13c2

He's in Logos there, and the other two houses are brobnar & shadows.

It would be nice if someone could get a good, confirmed maverick database up and running...

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On 5/29/2019 at 7:01 PM, TheSpitfired said:

I’ll be the one to say it: LA - gross over reaction. Now every deck that has one is being punished whether it’s good or not.

Make it an alpha, say it doesn’t go in the discard pile until the end of the turn. Say any card that retrieves cards from the discard pile cannot be used to retrieve LA. Do anything else other than purge it.

Nope one and done. 

I don’t like it but what’s done is done. I only have two decks that have it in them and one is fun but bad and the other is good but Logos is actually the weak spot of the deck.

I think I like the B&S nerf but I don’t really know. I would think steal at least 3 but 2 will be fine. I only just got a deck that had one in it and I’ve only played one game with it. 

Drummernaut fix is just LOL.

End rant, and back to AoA hype. gg.

Agreed. I do think Alpha could be a good option but I was willing to even go for an added text to the card that simply says "if this is the second time you have played LA, purge it". I think that would have been the best option because it still allows for a great turn while likely keeping a deck from forging 3 keys. This also would have enabled non-OTK (one turn kill) decks to get some good and fun use out of LA. I also feel bad for people who spent a bunch of money on their OTK decks after this update to the rules. 

On 5/30/2019 at 6:29 PM, Whiz Canmaj said:

I agreed with the Control the Weak / Restringtus ruling, because it explained how the game interfaced with contradictory effects. The Maverick Pitlord errata is ugly (should just force the player to use the house the Maverick Pitlord is), but it's such a rare occurrence, I doubt I'll ever have to encounter one IRL. 

But the B&S and LA erratas are just terrible. They're straight-up power-level erratas, not a ruling on how the cards are supposed to work. Keyforge wasn't supposed to be like this. I thought the Chain system would allow broken cards to stay as-is and punish the decks that use them.

Agreed, they said from the beginning that ALL decks would be playable and the chain system would be there in lieu of banning or restricting things, what is the difference between banning/restricting vs nerfing so hard that the decks are basically useless now at the same level of competition? 

 

I would also point out that nerfing LA alone isn't going to solve the problem of OTK decks, it will simply mean that there will be fewer now. What I mean is, and this is where I start to predict meta, now we will simply see people gathering decks that have another way to pull off OTK. Anyone? .... how about Key Abduction, Nipenthe Seed?!?! With a decent creature count and/or some archiving, you can easily forge for free and use Nipenthe Seed to get another, add in a Total Recall and either Chota Hazri or Key Charge and you are forging 3 keys easily without LA. I would have thought that an additional nerf to Nipenthe Seed stating something like "you can't target a card that was played this turn" would have happened too but instead they just went ALL OUT on LA ignoring other problems.

 

Overall, I think a nerf to LA and B&S is a good thing and would definitely improve the game, but I think they were too severe and left out other issues (Nipenthe Seed, Key Abduction etc.).

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On 6/1/2019 at 6:19 AM, SupaGerm said:

I've always though purging Nepenthe Seed after using it would make sense. Omni makes it super strong. 

Except, as an artifact, there are several cards that let the other player use it.

Action cards, not so much. 

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On 6/1/2019 at 1:13 AM, Dantastic24 said:

Agreed. I do think Alpha could be a good option but I was willing to even go for an added text to the card that simply says "if this is the second time you have played LA, purge it". I think that would have been the best option because it still allows for a great turn while likely keeping a deck from forging 3 keys. This also would have enabled non-OTK (one turn kill) decks to get some good and fun use out of LA. I also feel bad for people who spent a bunch of money on their OTK decks after this update to the rules. 

Even just "putting it into archives" after use would limit it to once per turn. (though then you would be able to guarantee it the next turn)

I'd like to experiment with one of those decks and add to LibAcc, "gain 1 chain." So then if you loop enough... you end the turn with 6 chains on you. And since you probably won't be drawing cards after that turn, those chains could stick for awhile. But then I also think B&S just needs "gain 3 chains" on it to make it more restricted.

On 6/1/2019 at 1:13 AM, Dantastic24 said:

I would also point out that nerfing LA alone isn't going to solve the problem of OTK decks, it will simply mean that there will be fewer now. What I mean is, and this is where I start to predict meta, now we will simply see people gathering decks that have another way to pull off OTK. Anyone? .... how about Key Abduction, Nipenthe Seed?!?! With a decent creature count and/or some archiving, you can easily forge for free and use Nipenthe Seed to get another, add in a Total Recall and either Chota Hazri or Key Charge and you are forging 3 keys easily without LA. I would have thought that an additional nerf to Nipenthe Seed stating something like "you can't target a card that was played this turn" would have happened too but instead they just went ALL OUT on LA ignoring other problems.

Don't even need that. Pure untamed has a OTK with Full Moon/Hunting Witch + Dust Pixie x2 + Chouta + Nature's Call x2. Though it's more challenging as you have to have a perfect draw. I've also heard rumors of a Battle Fleet + Key Abduction loop one can use too though I'd like to see it in action.

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18 minutes ago, Simplegarak said:

I'd like to experiment with one of those decks and add to LibAcc, "gain 1 chain." So then if you loop enough... you end the turn with 6 chains on you. And since you probably won't be drawing cards after that turn, those chains could stick for awhile. But then I also think B&S just needs "gain 3 chains" on it to make it more restricted.

You'll notice with AoA that they didn't add any cards that give chains (to yourself). Maybe they're trying different balance systems.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

You'll notice with AoA that they didn't add any cards that give chains (to yourself). Maybe they're trying different balance systems.

Incorrect. "Extinction" is a rare Mars card that's basically Custom Virus on an action and it gives you 1 chain when played. Killzord Mk. 9001 also sort of does.

Edited by Simplegarak

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17 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

You'll notice with AoA that they didn't add any cards that give chains (to yourself). Maybe they're trying different balance systems.

Alpha and Omega.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 3:13 PM, Simplegarak said:

Incorrect. "Extinction" is a rare Mars card that's basically Custom Virus on an action and it gives you 1 chain when played. Killzord Mk. 9001 also sort of does.

Ok, my bad.
"almost none".

The threee new cards with chains are: Binding irons (chains to others), Extinction (1 chain to self), Killzord mk. 9001 (1 chain per fight with the creature), and 2 old cards that remained: Save the pack (1 chain) and Coward's End (3 chains). Any other chain is Legacy.

Edited by Deuzerre

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Hello every one.

I'm french, this is why I ask to you to excuse me for my bad English.

I post this comment to tell to you that the Purge of Library Access, is abusive.

Because this card is strong but not TOO strong.

The abusive aspect is the combo "Inverse Temporal"/"Library Access, not "Library Access" only.

 

When you have "LA" in your hand you have 3 chooses.

Discard this card > Without that, this card will be considerate as a chain.

Use this card > If you have got only this card : Purge it uselessly.

If you have got an other Logos card, pray to have another Logos card ; is not profitable.

Keep this card > Until it's profitable (wait again 3 logos card, for exemple), in other words, it's a chain.

 

It's only cause there are decks/players who play with THIS specific combo, this card is nerfed.

My suggestion is : Apply the effect literally !

It's like that I played before the purge.

"For the remainder of the turn, each time you play another card, draw A card" only ONE each time, even you played this card 1, 2 or 3 times.

With this new text, the combo is strong too, but not abusive.

 

Cause the purge, the card is totally useless.

If you purge even with this suggestion, you can measure this decision with the archive.

"When LA is used, archive LA." or "When LA is used, your opponent archive LA."

 

Purge is as the famous combo : abusive.

 

Thanks for you reading.

And sorry again for my English.

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