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thespaceinvader

An idea to help with balancing - increased use of Limited

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OK, this one's been bubbling around for a while and I feel like writing it up properly:

There are cards which are really problematic for balance.  Some that are bad enough that to make them playable they need to be cheap enough to make them overly spammable, in particular the Jumpmaster.  Some are incredibly strong in multiples, but mediocre at best in singles, like Juke and/or Phantoms, Barrage Rockets, K Wings, etc.

This is kind of an intractable problem with the current balancing systems available, which only work on points and slots - you can't add enough slots to the Jump to make it work, and you can't remove enough points from it to make it work, because its mechanics are just too limiting, and similarly, taking enough away from the Phantom to make it just strong instead of the strongest, would probably kill its effectiveness entirely.

I've seen a suggestion of variable points based on number of copies, which could go some way to accounting for this, but I'd like to see it go a little further: move the Limited dots into the PDFs/app, and also, make them applicable to ship names as well as pilot and upgrade names.


Accordingly, you could then have a **Jumpmaster 5000, where you could therefore only ever have two copies of the Jumpmaster, but each could be cheap enough to not suck.  You could have **Juke, which puts it at the level of 'ione shot costs the focus, one takes advantage' but not 'and then so do two (or when the N1 comes out, potentially 3) more'.   You could put *** on the Phantom or ** on the Defender chassis, meaning they could retain their current costs, for the former, without being spammable (which makes sense for an experimental spaceframe) or, for the Defender, make them cheaper without making 3 of them possible.

 

It would take a single big adjustment to both the rules and the PDF/App, for the currently published material, and it would be slightly harder to ensure list legality, but it would open a whole nother dimension of balance possibilities, the way the introducing multi dot limited did in the first place.

 

Thoughts?

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In many off forum discussions this mechanic has continuously come up as something that needs to be introduced more widely.  We saw it with the vulture droids.  And there is plenty of space in other chassis/upgrades where it could also be applied.  Update some sort of additional value of "Squad count" in the app with a 1/2/3/4/5/Unlimited/ect and you can easily adjust that as needed.  

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Only issue is retroactively adding dots to cards that already got printed .

Ffg sadly didn't go full warmachine, where the cards are either all in app and available for free from official site as printable PDFs

Least, I don't know if they did. Havnt touched the app

 

Also, I'd REALLY be against limiting ship type instead of pilot (so would ffg prob; would reduce how many ships of X type anyone would buy) 

Just make it **sigma squad ace 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Only issue is retroactively adding dots to cards that already got printed .

Ffg sadly didn't go full warmachine, where the cards are either all in app and available for free from official site as printable PDFs

Least, I don't know if they did. Havnt touched the app

Yes, that would necessitate a single, high-impact werratum saying 'ignore all the Limited dots printed on cards'.  Or maybe 'we can ADD limited dots to cards' - I'm not sure there are any where removign the dots would be necessary.

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Given the context of the thread, it'd be about adding dots

But given we're expected to use official ffg cards that came in the products we bought, might be difficult to justify adding said dots 

Mechanically, I'm all for the idea (for everything minus ship type). In regards to the actual product, though, might be confusing.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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For medium and large based ships, the easiest way to implement the kind of restriction you’re talking about would be by base size.

We already have a hard limit of 8 ships in a 200 point list, so it would be pretty straightforward to update the Rules Reference with a hard limit of 2 large base and 3 (or maybe 4) medium base ships.

This would apply to any combination of ships of that size, but I don’t see that being a bad thing.

For small based ships, maybe they could include some sheets of black dot stickers in future expansions and tell us which cards to stick them on? 😛

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48 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Only issue is retroactively adding dots to cards that already got printed .

Well, stuff like this is what card packs are good for, IMHO.  Errata can be put on the cards and reprinted.

Quote

Also, I'd REALLY be against limiting ship type instead of pilot (so would ffg prob; would reduce how many ships of X type anyone would buy) 

Just make it **sigma squad ace 

The one place where this could be interesting is "experimental" ships that really shouldn't be seen in numbers anyways.  Or the Stolen TIE.  It could create a fun micro-environment to create odd-ball abilities or weapons.

As for limiting sales, I'm not sure most players buy more than 1 of any ship anyways, unless the meta shows they should.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I like the idea, as it does cleanly what I’d like.

Kill quad Phantoms without making singles unplayable.

I helped some people prep for the system open this weekend, and I was the designated beat stick (quad phantom player).  Now I’ve flown plenty of Phantoms, Echo is one of my favorite pilots, but not that specific one. My god was it disgusting. But one in a list is not overpowered. But I really only see two answers that deal with the issue without making the Phantom unplayable.

add limited ** to the Sigma or Juke

make each copy cost more points. So 5 for the first copy. 6 each for 2. 7 each for 3.

Just straight raising prices very easily could wipe out single ships, and that’d make me unhappy.

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FFG could add limited dots to the cards by doing the following if this really does become a problem (I am not there yet, but I do empathize with the concern)

1) Increase the points cost of problem card to 250pts

2) Release a Card pack with new cards that have limited dots on them

Example:

1) Increase the points cost of Sigma to 250pts

2) Release a Card pack with new pilots  **Shadow Squad Recruit

I am sure someone would be sad, but it would definitely cover it...

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8 minutes ago, drazen90909 said:

FFG could add limited dots to the cards by doing the following if this really does become a problem (I am not there yet, but I do empathize with the concern)

1) Increase the points cost of problem card to 250pts

2) Release a Card pack with new cards that have limited dots on them

Example:

1) Increase the points cost of Sigma to 250pts

2) Release a Card pack with new pilots  **Shadow Squad Recruit

I am sure someone would be sad, but it would definitely cover it...

This would be the worst possible solution, to be honest, it would make basically everyone who wants to play that card angry, because thye have to buy new cards to continue doing so.

 

Any solution that necessitates buying new stuff is bad.  If the new stuff is available as an option, that's all well and good, but making it the only option is exactly the kind f thing people were glad to be rid of with 1e.  Let's not go back to that.

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16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This would be the worst possible solution, to be honest, it would make basically everyone who wants to play that card angry, because thye have to buy new cards to continue doing so.

 

Any solution that necessitates buying new stuff is bad.  If the new stuff is available as an option, that's all well and good, but making it the only option is exactly the kind f thing people were glad to be rid of with 1e.  Let's not go back to that.

It doesn’t have to be required to play.  They could hard errata cards as you suggested.  (I’m all for this course of action.)  Then people can play with the old cards if they want, as long as they follow the rules.  The card packs would simply be there for people who want to pick up a reprinted card.  (In addition to new pilots.)

Lets be honest, this is FFG we’re talking about.  Even if they did take this course of action, they would make the change but we probably wouldn’t see the reprint for a year.

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Only issue is retroactively adding dots to cards that already got printed .

Ffg sadly didn't go full warmachine, where the cards are either all in app and available for free from official site as printable PDFs

Least, I don't know if they did. Havnt touched the app

 

Also, I'd REALLY be against limiting ship type instead of pilot (so would ffg prob; would reduce how many ships of X type anyone would buy) 

Just make it **sigma squad ace 

Well this is where Custom Formats can step in as we can make our own Hyper-Extended Format where we can greatly reduce the power a certain model has just by removing certain pilots. If a certain ship is too good when used in groups of 4 or more, maybe removing all non-unique pilots and just include a few unique pilots would cut it down a little.

That being said the way it is set up is still with cards, so any information printed on them is permanent throughout all of second edition. It was designed to have meta adjustments without pen & ink changes. So with what FGD said that is how it has to be. Everything in the conversion kit is final. If changing something involves changing a printed card it is already out of the question.

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28 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

It doesn’t have to be required to play.  They could hard errata cards as you suggested.  (I’m all for this course of action.)  Then people can play with the old cards if they want, as long as they follow the rules.  The card packs would simply be there for people who want to pick up a reprinted card.  (In addition to new pilots.)

Lets be honest, this is FFG we’re talking about.  Even if they did take this course of action, they would make the change but we probably wouldn’t see the reprint for a year.

I've no objection to optional card packs. I have every objection to costing existing cards out of the game and replacing them with new cards as the post to which I was responding suggested.

Though I don't actually think card packs are going to happen so

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4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Any solution that necessitates buying new stuff is bad. 

Then the Emperor has already won.

Seriously, FFG has to come up with a system that allows for semi-major adjustments in the game without a complete reboot every 5 years.

Card packs could/should be that system.

3 hours ago, Gberezowsky said:

They don’t need to release card packs to make ships limited. Anything related to list building can just be implemented in the app. 

*snort*

I would have believed that, once upon a time.  They've got a lot of programming work and trust-building to do before I would consider the app A Gold Standard For Rule-Keeping.

Moreover, not everyone turns to the app for listbuilding.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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If folks that are spamming ships/upgrades to win tournaments (hence the mulit-pip proposal), they have to follow updated rules which are available online only, yes? Which means that those players--whether they buy updated cards or not--must abide by tournament rules. New cards, or old cards, the ship/upgrades will still be limited. No one would be required to make purchases to replace old cards if the rule is understood.

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It's funny that basically all the interesting new game design is happening in CIS.

When we eventually get third edition, half of it is just gonna be backporting mechanics invented for the Separatists to the other factions.

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Though I don't actually think card packs are going to happen so

That's really funny because Alex Davy actually said that they "very much want to do that" and at another time that "Pilots like K-2S0 that we were unaware of didn't get in when the ship was first released, so we'd like to add them at a future time, probably through card packs." They've probably been in the works since the start of 2.0. After all, we've been promised all along (over and over and over and over) that "We will get new pilots and upgrades without having to re-buy existing ships".

This means that either:

1) Those new pilots and upgrades will be included in new (not repainted/resculpted) Rebel/Imperial ship packs, which must include at least: Cannons, Astromechs, Modifications, Force talents, Torpedoes, and Devices. I can't think of any ship in star wars lore that would answer that description, and I doubt we'll be getting more than one totally new Rebel ship within a year or two. Plus they'd have to include any new pilots they wanted to release in the same ship pack!

2) They release card packs with catch-up upgrades and (the same or other) card packs with new pilots and faction-specific upgrades.

#2 seems like so much more reasonable of an option, and provides a much higher margin for their business anyway.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

It's funny that basically all the interesting new game design is happening in CIS.

Well, given that there has been no new game design at all for Rebels and Empire. . .

Quote

When we eventually get third edition, half of it is just gonna be backporting mechanics invented for the Separatists to the other factions.

We don't need 3.0 for that, just new releases.  For example, the TIE D Automatic gets droid mechanics into Imperials in a flash.

53 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They said that ages ago and we've seen no sign of them.

That doesn't mean anything.

Just ask an Epic player.

Plus, given that they are probably busting hump to get rereleases, Seps, Republic, and Epic to the tables, card packs are probably last in line.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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yeesh,

obviously we're not getting new OT things for a while. New factions have A LOT of catching up to do! Besides, OT factions can use new generic upgrades (such as fuses and diamond boron and passive sensors) just fine AND they've gotten a lot of changes from 1st ed

Only thing we're really missing is probe droids being available for the empire. No reason they have to be separatist only, even if empire used an updated model or something. Could've sworn they had some floating around Mos Eisley...or maybe it was a special edition hallucination 

 

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7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Only thing we're really missing is probe droids being available for the empire. No reason they have to be separatist only, even if empire used an updated model or something. Could've sworn they had some floating around Mos Eisley...or maybe it was a special edition hallucination 

 

Although fitting fluffwise (the military, discipline, technology and systems orientated), not sure if that would be a good idea giving Empire probe droids, balancewise!

Empire has both Jendon, Reapers as well as ISB slicers already.

 

As for the OTs suggestion. FFG won't do hard card errata for 2.0.

I said that already in 1.0, and also early in 2.0: I never understood why FFG not uses the design space of just banning a certain combo, if it shows to be really problematic (like e.g. banning Kanan on Han. A more elegant solution than pricing a card into the orbit, thus removing all possibilities to field it anywhere, or the solution used on Leebo, were they removed the crew slot of Leebo, and just destroyed for good any and all crew combos). But in 2.0 it would be easy to implement new squad regulations (upgrade A of category X costs 10 normally, but is forbidden on pilot B or costs 40 on him/her, while every other upgrade of that category X still works on B; generic pilot C can ever be 2 times in a 200squad) into the app (and simultaneously improve this piece of c r a p) and also put the same restriction into the points pdf for the respective faction - done.

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