Should Adv. Sensors be priced by initiative?

[MikeEvans 147]

At higher initiatives, Advanced Sensors is a poor man's SNR.  You use up your action, but if you have a reposition it's extraordinarily useful and worth plenty of points.  However, if you don't have a reposition or move early, it's still nice to have but not nearly so strong.

Would it be be a good idea to price Advanced Sensors by initiative value?  I'm thinking 2 points per Init.  The init-5 aces who like it (like Guri) would still be paying what they pay now, but lower-init ships wouldn't have to pay so punishing a premium.  You might even see crew carriers like U-wings and Lambdas take it once in a while, and I don't think it's ever a bad thing to give generics a little help.  Honestly, once they hike Leia up to a proper points cost, it would be nice for Rebels to have a reasonably-priced alternative to take actions when they want to perform a red maneuver (which is still not as good as Leia because you have to de-stress afterward and it only works for the ship with Sensors, not the whole squadron).

Thoughts?

[svelok 4,133]

I'd be worried about cheap advanced sensors on low init ships with a hard stop

[MikeEvans 147]

I addressed that already... mentioned U-Wings and Lambdas specifically as well as comparing the price of "cheap" Adv. Sensors vs Leia, who would be better in every way even at a higher price point.

[thespaceinvader 17,264]

No. Its uses are different depending on initiative but no less good.

[prauxim 760]

AS is still quite good on low ini. Just using it to focus before reds is good regardless of Ini, but also it helps a lot with blocking. If it scaled like SN did, most sensor ships could be run 4x with AS (Starvipers, Phantoms, Bwing with room for upgrades, etc). That'd be pretty rough.

It'd be cool if it scaled slightly, maybe 1pt/Ini, but full on scaling would add too much value to low-I sensor ships. Also generic phantoms are so strong now, they'd need a bump if AS became a real option, but they're probably getting that anyway.

I personally would love to get AS cheap on Bs. I played 4x AS Blue Bwings when AS cost 8, that was a fun list and pretty strong. But if you give it 16pts it going to be broken (not as broken as Phantoms would be though 🤣)

[Boom Owl 9,473]

It shouldnt be any cheaper than it currently is at lower init if thats the question.

Edited May 27 by Boom Owl

[flooze 525]

I'd take them for 2 points on ini 2/3 StarVipers 😛

Edited May 27 by flooze

[theBitterFig 5,739]

Mostly no.

Particularly not at a (Init*2) scaling.  A great many ships with Sensor slots have a lot of really high-value red moves and red actions, and a lot of that value remains regardless of initiative.  However, just for sake of argument, I might not mind scaling more like BB-8 or Primed Thrusters: suppose Advanced Sensors at 5 + Initiative.  A few non-exhaustive highlights:

• Guri remains at 10 points, which is correct.
• OGP could get it at 6 points, where it'd be better than Collision Detector, by and large, but not that absurd.  That'd certainly be the upgrade I'd go for in Palp OGP/Delta/Delta.  I've flown a decent amount of Omicron Group Pilot, and 2 points for AdvS on there would be beyond ***** good.
• Starkiller Base Pilot still has to spend 7 for it.  Only 3 points cheaper than it is now, that gives a bit more wiggle room in the list, but doesn't radically change how it functions.  A 4 point version per the scaling in the OP would be so very wrong.
• Named B-Wings and U-Wings don't seem like they'd be too crazy, only saving 1-2 points.  I generally think the pilots need a price increase anyhow, so it'd kinda come out in the wash.

Edited May 27 by theBitterFig

[svelok 4,133]

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Guri remains at 10 points, which is correct.

I think there's a very strong argument Guri is too expensive but gets AS too cheaply

[Gilarius 1,445]

4-LOM says "Hello".

(Gets his action, barrel roll or calculate or TL. Performs his red move, gets another calculate. Passes off the stress to any ship in range and repeats next turn.)

He's one of the main reasons it went up, if you remember?

[RoockieBoy 477]

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mostly no.

Particularly not at a (Init*2) scaling.  A great many ships with Sensor slots have a lot of really high-value red moves and red actions, and a lot of that value remains regardless of initiative.  However, just for sake of argument, I might not mind scaling more like BB-8 or Primed Thrusters: suppose Advanced Sensors at 5 + Initiative.

• Guri remains at 10 points, which is correct.
• OGP could get it at 6 points, where it'd be better than Collision Detector, by and large, but not that absurd.  That'd certainly be the upgrade I'd go for in Palp OGP/Delta/Delta.  I've flown a decent amount of Omicron Group Pilot, and 2 points for AdvS on there would be beyond ***** good.
• Starkiller Base Pilot still has to spend 7 for it.  Only 3 points cheaper than it is now, that gives a bit more wiggle room in the list, but doesn't radically change how it functions.  A 4 point version per the scaling in the OP would be so very wrong.
• Named B-Wings and U-Wings don't seem like they'd be too crazy, only saving 1-2 points.  I generally think the pilots need a price increase anyhow, so it'd kinda come out in the wash.

Wht about e-wings? I use AS a lot with Corran, but if it was cheaper on Gavin it might be worth the change

[theBitterFig 5,739]

27 minutes ago, RoockieBoy said:

Wht about e-wings? I use AS a lot with Corran, but if it was cheaper on Gavin it might be worth the change

I was mostly going through some highlights, rather than an exhaustive list.   I think E-Wings are pretty cool, but they aren't particularly common ships.

[theBitterFig 5,739]

42 minutes ago, svelok said:

I think there's a very strong argument Guri is too expensive but gets AS too cheaply

I don't know if I agree, but that makes enough sense.

Other Starvipers can get a lot out of their linked actions.  A full focus is rather good on 3-red, 3-green, and it's hard to want to give that up, since they won't have access to tokens.  The fact that Guri only gets Calculate if she links means that she's often going to be better off unstressed with a single action, and if well off with a single action, she might as well take it early.  Meanwhile, Guri's ability granting her a focus token prevents her from going tokenless, like other Starvipers would, if they used AdvS.

But I guess that speaks to me of synergy, more than either the ship or the upgrade being too cheap or too expensive.  Absent some complex spreadsheet for variable pricing, I think status quo for Guri is probably preferable.

[ClassicalMoser 1,783]

The problem with AS is that it's currently priced according to the things that can abuse it, namely Guri and 4-Lom.

The price of AS is too high (and is of the Sensors in general) to the point where even many ships that would thrive with it are not taking it. I'm not seeing it used even on named B-Wings, which are full of reds and already quite cheap for how good they are. In all honesty, Advanced Sensors by itself doesn't seem worth more than 6-8 points to me on any chassis except on Guri and 4-LOM, and they would still pay for it at 12+ points. We can't price it according to them because that makes it prohibitive for every other ship, but at the same time, upping their cost to represent how good they are with AS means you have an autoinclude upgrade instead of a list-building choice.

It's a puzzler either way. 5% of your list is way too much for 90% of the ships that can take it (or it would actually be taken a lot more often). U-Wings, Lambdas, Upsilons, B-Wings would all do their job much better with it, but at its price it hardly gets a second look.

I'd like to see it at 7 points and the abusive pilots upped. Most of the issues with it will go away as more options become available to the Sensor slot and as the I5-I6 pilots begin to actually pay for their initiatives and abilities. 

Edited May 27 by ClassicalMoser

[player3010587 1,491]

No. BC AS is considerably good on any chassis that can take it, especially shuttles. That and we wouldn't want to crowd the variable-cost club when we as a community finally realize that we should have been demanding R2DCrew's cost be determined by aggregate health. Although, it might be easiest to do that by hull value (1-3 hull, 6pt; 4-6 hull, 8pt; 7-11 hull, 16pt). Regen should be either rather difficult to consistently do (i.e., gonk, elusive + chopper wonky combo or Miranda's ability) or hard-capped (i.e., the regen droids). In no world should it be both consistent and unlimited.

[Icelom 3,298]

Advanced sensors are really good at all initiatives...

 

 

 

4 hours ago, MikeEvans said:

You might even see crew carriers like U-wings and Lambdas take it once in a while

 

Its stapled to all my U-wings and Lambdas as it is... even cheaper it would be crazy overpowered.

Do you know what's really great? a large base low initiative ship that can do an action before doing a red or a ram. 

so short answer "No, pricing by initiative would be a horrible idea"

 

 

[NukeWash 65]

I think all upgrades that affect maneuverability should be scaled based on Initiative and Size. For Advanced Sensors, I'd like to see: I1 -- 6pt, I2 -- 6pt, I3 -- 8pt, I4 -- 8pt, I5 -- 10pt, I6 -- 12pt; each base size larger than small adds +1pt

[Blail Blerg 6,709]

i fail to see how  low-init or blocking helped by AdvSe becomes game breaking. Also more bumping the merrier. 

[gamblertuba 4,966]

I'm with the folks that say yes but not by much.  I'd go with price of 6+ Initiative.

[millertime059 1,223]

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

i fail to see how  low-init or blocking helped by AdvSe becomes game breaking. Also more bumping the merrier. 

If you like bumping, fly this then.

5x planetary Sentinel 

Del Meeko/ Gideon Hask/ Wampa

Have fun

[prauxim 760]

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

i fail to see how  low-init or blocking helped by AdvSe becomes game breaking

I ran 4x Blue Sq Bwings with AS in a tourney when it cost 200 even. My spidey force sense tells me its was low-mid A tier (got 3/18 but my 1 loss was to a top-tier player and it was close). The only 2 AS Blues that got taken to an system open got top 16, for what that's worth.

The suggested pricing adds 16pts to that list. Even a mediocre upgrade like SU would be enough to make it upper A tier IMO. Better upgrade may push it to S-tier (some would say Selfless but I have my reservations)

Maybe not game breaking but probably meta warping for sure. This would be a stronger, arguably more "mindless", version of rebel beef and would be decried as a NPE for sure. 

Of course all of this is without addressing the much more concerning 4x AS Phantom lists made possible

Edited May 28 by prauxim

[ClassicalMoser 1,783]

I think everyone here is imagining it to be way stronger than it actually is. Here are some examples:

If given the choice, would you take AS on Sai or Afterburners on Vader?

Would you take AS on Braylen or VTG on Norra?

Would you take AS on Cassian or PerCop on Kyle Katarn?

Would you take AS or TrajSim on a Punisher or Starfortress?

Each of these things seems like a very real choice to me and puts it more in the range of Afterburners and Outmaneuver than something like Proton Torpedoes. 6 is probably a little too cheap but 10 is a bit too expensive. Meta-Wing shows it used extensively on Guri and considerably on 4-LOM, but then quite negligably on nearly everything else (some anecdotal uses by B-Wings, but to fairly poor performance).

Again: Guri and 4-LOM would buy it at 15+ points, but no one else is taking it at 10. It needs to be cheaper. If the offending pilots are too strong, they're the ones that need the nerf. I feel like 7 is the magic number, and maybe Collision Detector should come down 1 point. Among other things, it shows that the Sensor slot needs more options, though of course nothing like the pieces of trash that were Accuracy Corrector, Reinforced Deflectors, and Targeting Scrambler. Those can rest in their graves forever.

[Icelom 3,298]

 

 

 

 

 

 

5

31 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think everyone here is imagining it to be way stronger than it actually is. Here are some examples:

If given the choice, would you take AS on Sai or Afterburners on Vader? (AS on Sai... every time and I do. I would way rather be able to coordinate Vader (or anyone else) before I bump or do a red move then have afterburners on vader... if you make the choice to run afterburners at the expense of AS on sai you are making a massive mistake. My shuttles are constantly bumping to maintain their arc... AS is required)

Would you take AS on Braylen or VTG on Norra? (probably VTG on norra... but why not both? cut 10pts somewhere else)

Would you take AS on Cassian or PerCop on Kyle Katarn? (AS on Cassian for sure... how is that even a question, kyle banks his focuses for that and if you are perceptive you are wasting that banking)

Would you take AS or TrajSim on a Punisher or Starfortress? (AS hands freaking down...)

Each of these things seems like a very real choice to me and puts it more in the range of Afterburners and Outmaneuver than something like Proton Torpedoes. 6 is probably a little too cheap but 10 is a bit too expensive. Meta-Wing shows it used extensively on Guri and considerably on 4-LOM, but then quite negligably on nearly everything else (some anecdotal uses by B-Wings, but to fairly poor performance).

Again: Guri and 4-LOM would buy it at 15+ points, but no one else is taking it at 10. It needs to be cheaper. If the offending pilots are too strong, they're the ones that need the nerf. I feel like 7 is the magic number, and maybe Collision Detector should come down 1 point. Among other things, it shows that the Sensor slot needs more options, though of course nothing like the pieces of trash that were Accuracy Corrector, Reinforced Deflectors, and Targeting Scrambler. Those can rest in their graves forever.

The only time I really feel competition is if I want to take fire control system a very cheap and good upgrade. (or if the ship has multi actioning I want to be able to do)

The other issue of your *choices* almost all of them you can take both choices and cut somewhere else in your list so its not really a fair comparison... 

I have never once regretted spending 10pts on advanced sensors.

[ClassicalMoser 1,783]

On 5/27/2019 at 3:00 PM, Icelom said:

Its stapled to all my U-Wings and Lambdas as it is

...

I have never once regretted spending 10pts on advanced sensors

This puts you in a distinct minority then, and that's okay. Again, ListFortress shows it performing extremely well on two pilots, occasionally on Sai and the named B-Wings, and basically never taken on anything else. See for yourself:

https://meta.listfortress.com/upgrades/146?

Once Passive Sensors is out, there will at least be 4 usable sensor upgrades instead of the 3 we have now (TrajSim is very limited in application). Until there are 2-3 more though, it's really hard to say how much one is worth. Ships without TL action don't get anything out of FCS so it's basically between CD and AS, and both are just too expensive to be practical most of the time. For those that have TL, FCS is autoinclude unless you're strapped for points, and then you have an empty sensor slot.

I don't know, I really love Advanced Sensors. It's just that every time I'm making a rebel list, I look at Advanced Sensors, and then I look at what else I could get for those 10 points (2 talents, Leia, and a missile, upgrade Wedge to Luke, or both named A-Wings instead of two Phoenixes) and the opportunity cost is just too great to make AS worth it, so I rarely take it. And when I do take it, I end up wishing I'd chosen the alternative.

EDIT:

Also note this: Before the points change, AS was taken considerably by a wide variety of ships. It was used quite excessively by the broken-OP stuff that came out at first (Redline, 4-LOM, Guri, etc.) but I feel like they've been nerfed enough by their own point changes that AS doesn't have to be as high anymore. None of the other ships were abusively powerful, though Sai was very good (I expect she has a price increase coming as well, so the points are probably a wash or the combo will end up more expensive).

It was fine at 8 points. You may be right that it's stronger than I think and 8 could be better than 7. I just think 10 is too much in most cases.

Edited May 28 by ClassicalMoser

[Icelom 3,298]

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This puts you in a distinct minority then, and that's okay. Again, ListFortress shows it performing extremely well on two pilots, occasionally on Sai and the named B-Wings, and basically never taken on anything else. See for yourself:

https://meta.listfortress.com/upgrades/146?

Once Passive Sensors is out, there will at least be 4 usable sensor upgrades instead of the 3 we have now (TrajSim is very limited in application). Until there are 2-3 more though, it's really hard to say how much one is worth. Ships without TL action don't get anything out of FCS so it's basically between CD and AS, and both are just too expensive to be practical most of the time. For those that have TL, FCS is autoinclude unless you're strapped for points, and then you have an empty sensor slot.

I don't know, I really love Advanced Sensors. It's just that every time I'm making a rebel list, I look at Advanced Sensors, and then I look at what else I could get for those 10 points (2 talents, Leia, and a missile, upgrade Wedge to Luke, or both named A-Wings instead of two Phoenixes) and the opportunity cost is just too great to make AS worth it, so I rarely take it. And when I do take it, I end up wishing I'd chosen the alternative.

EDIT:

Also note this: Before the points change, AS was taken considerably by a wide variety of ships. It was used quite excessively by the broken-OP stuff that came out at first (Redline, 4-LOM, Guri, etc.) but I feel like they've been nerfed enough by their own point changes that AS doesn't have to be as high anymore. None of the other ships were abusively powerful, though Sai was very good (I expect she has a price increase coming as well, so the points are probably a wash or the combo will end up more expensive).

It was fine at 8 points. You may be right that it's stronger than I think and 8 could be better than 7. I just think 10 is too much in most cases.

I don't actually disagree with you that it's probably fine at 8pts. (But no lower)

What I disagree with is it needing to be priced by initiative... It's a good upgrade already at every initiative. If it's priced by initiative it's going to be either overpowered at low initiative or really crappy at high initiative. It's an upgrade that has benefits at all initiative levels (sometimes different benefits).