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Archlyte

How much training do you need...

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Posted (edited)

Any convincing on Rey that's going to happen has already happened.  Both sides have just enough to point to to keep themselves going forever.  Everyone watching it has already made up their mind too. Maybe accept that the Rey conversation isn't going anywhere and moving it to another thread if you still want to have it.

 

On 5/26/2019 at 9:00 PM, Archlyte said:
  1. To use a lightsaber?
  2. To use the mindtrick?
  3. To move things with the Force?

I'm curious to see how this is handled in your game. Do you have training required for anything? What about practice? I'm not talking about game mechanics, just how it is handled in description and Role-Play. 

I ask for some hook to hang the character development on but not much.  Most characters who want to play Jedi or Force Sensitives work it into their backstory which is most of the work.  If they're creating characters out of F&D then the "party resource" of a Holocron or Mentor then that's plenty for me.

I think the XP required to get good at force related stuff bakes in enough time to develop the abilities that they don't show up suddenly (if that's even a problem).

And to actually reference the movies in a way that's on topic and addresses your question: do what the film makers do and is to your (GM and player) taste.  I think too much attention is paid to character development as in-setting canon and too little on what is in reality a director decision in character development.  There's not some grand scheme to explain Luke's training and Rey's training and Obi-wan's training other than they do things the story teller needs them to do when they need them to do it.  JJ Abrams used a more accelerated time scale than used before and some people have a problem with that, if you're one of them then build in more in the game to bring training in to the narrative (holocrons, mentors, etc).  If you want fairly quick character development but want more nods to training more then that's more a Luke story arc.  If you want in depth training then Obi-wan is your model.  Rebels seemed to have middle-road where Ezra developed over seasons but did get fairly competent quickly - but his training and failures were highlighted in several episodes (I'm thinking when re learned reflect and well as developing his animal affinity).  Know what story beats you (GM and player) like and go for that.  I think the basic F&D core book puts a lot of these elements in the game if you want to use them.

In my play group one player didn't decide until months into the campaign that he wanted to branch his character out into being Force Sensitive and it's worked out really well.  He hasn't used any flashy force powers so that wasn't an issue but he's reached out to the Jedi in the group to get some actual training so any such changes in ability will have an explanation now.  Though if he had done things like suddenly used Move or Influence etc I think it could easily have been chalked up to doing something extraordinary and untrained subconsciously when threatened (the old trope of "young wizard used magic without knowing it" seems to work in star wars too to some degree).

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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To add a bit more, part of this question is what kind of experience does the player want.

Do they want the training up to greatness experience or do they want more of a falling into or jump to greatness experience?

There's a lot of story and fun that can be hand in training - Nexus of Power and Disciples of Harmony cover a lot of ground here with advice and mechanics support - but if the player isn't into that then hand-waiving it or putting it onto the background ("Oh, we're travelling for a week?  Ok, I'll practice X") is fine too.

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17 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

To add a bit more, part of this question is what kind of experience does the player want.

Do they want the training up to greatness experience or do they want more of a falling into or jump to greatness experience?

There's a lot of story and fun that can be hand in training - Nexus of Power and Disciples of Harmony cover a lot of ground here with advice and mechanics support - but if the player isn't into that then hand-waiving it or putting it onto the background ("Oh, we're travelling for a week?  Ok, I'll practice X") is fine too.

I do try and require any Force power training to be played out, because you've always got the chance that dark pips will be rolled, and the player use them, which can directly impact how the PC views the Force, and how they are willing to use it.   Stuff like skill training though, I'm fine with off-screen training, unless I can find a way to work it into a fun scene.  I usually can, but I'm fine with skipping it too.

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46 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I do try and require any Force power training to be played out, because you've always got the chance that dark pips will be rolled, and the player use them, which can directly impact how the PC views the Force, and how they are willing to use it.   Stuff like skill training though, I'm fine with off-screen training, unless I can find a way to work it into a fun scene.  I usually can, but I'm fine with skipping it too.

What do you do in game to play out learning/training a Force Power?  They've purchased it and activate it in training scenarios?

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5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

What do you do in game to play out learning/training a Force Power?  They've purchased it and activate it in training scenarios?

Pretty much every example we've ever seen of any Force user practicing their powers?  They try and randomly lift some object, they try and jump from one rock to another (potentially falling with Looney Toons results), etc.  It depends on the Force power they pick obviously.  But to give you an example from a game I ran a few years ago, one PC was a street urchin that had been discovered by a Jedi Master and her Padawan, when she reflexively used Move to defend herself from some thugs.  The Master decided to pick her up and take her back to Coruscant....basically the same scenario as Phantom Menace, just age up Anakin to a teenage girl, instead of a 6 year old kid.   Since the PC basically started with Move, I had it where she had some basic lessons with the Master (before the Master died, leading up to the actual campaign).  So she had basically as much training as we see Luke get.  A crash course on the fundamentals and basics.  The PC, being a mechanic type character, decided to take some time while she was in a semi-garage, to try and Move stuff.  Namely some of the tools on the workbench, and then trying a larger object (sil 1), I think an astromech, but I could be wrong.   Then I just had the player roll the Force die and see if she succeeded.  She wasn't very lucky during that session, and only got a pip on 1 roll I think (which she didn't use, because it was dark, IIRC), the others came up blank.  So it was roleplayed as "she was still having trouble turning the Master's instructions into practice, though she could feel the edge of something, brushing up against it with her mind."  

That's basically how I handle it, and it works out fine in my experience, regardless of the actual results of the dice.   

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On 5/28/2019 at 9:16 PM, Daeglan said:

Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and we dont know EVERYTHING that was covered. And I doubt lightsaber training was not covered given that afterwords Luke at least holds his own against Vader. Rey never turned on a lightsaber before she fought Kylo and then defeated him. And while we dont see all the training Luke got we know he got training which makes Luke using skills he didnt have before more believable. He got basic lightsaber training from Obi-Wan. Then more training in the force and lightsaber from Yoda. Lightsaber training is discussed in the Novelization of Empire. So yes people taught Luke.  

Yoda never taught Luke how to use a lightsaber. Novels are not a part of the movies. Anyone can write a massive Fan Fic about how Rei met a Jedi on the way to see Luke who totally taught her how to use a lightsaber it doesn't make it true.

We don't know Luke got any more training thats just another attempt to justify your Rei is a Mary Sue bull. I don't know what woman hurt you to create this view point, but you need to knock it off.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Yoda never taught Luke how to use a lightsaber. Novels are not a part of the movies. Anyone can write a massive Fan Fic about how Rei met a Jedi on the way to see Luke who totally taught her how to use a lightsaber it doesn't make it true.

We don't know Luke got any more training thats just another attempt to justify your Rei is a Mary Sue bull. I don't know what woman hurt you to create this view point, but you need to knock it off.

Not according to Lucas. We do not SEE everything that happened during training. That is clear. And according to Canon where the Novilizations does not contradict the movies is canon. Always has been. So yes according to canon he got lightsaber training. Also according to the movie his before Yoda technique and his after Yoda technique are different and his after Yoda technique is much improved. Which indicates training. and is a movie source that demonstrates it.

Edited by Daeglan

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He got zero light saber training other then Ben's remote training.

I really don't care what you claim is Canon. If its not in the movies it doesn't exist.

Luke even goes back to Yoda in Return of the Jedi for more training and Yoda dies.

So as far as people are concerned he ain't got anymore training then Rey.

Darth Vader had decades more training then Luke and mass murdered actual Jedi Masters and we are to believe Luke beats him?

Its as nonsensical as Rey beating Kylo Ren and the Guard.

The only difference is one is Male and one is Female. Funny that you only have an issue with the Female character.

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Just now, Decorus said:

He got zero light saber training other then Ben's remote training.

I really don't care what you claim is Canon. If its not in the movies it doesn't exist.

Luke even goes back to Yoda in Return of the Jedi for more training and Yoda dies.

So as far as people are concerned he ain't got anymore training then Rey.

Darth Vader had decades more training then Luke and mass murdered actual Jedi Masters and we are to believe Luke beats him?

Its as nonsensical as Rey beating Kylo Ren and the Guard.

The only difference is one is Male and one is Female. Funny that you only have an issue with the Female character.

Not according to canon. Canon says he got lightsaber training from Yoda. Since the time Luke spent on Dagobah it weeks I am pretty sure we dont see everything that he was trained in the 2 hour movie. And do kindly explain how Luke suddenly got better with a lightsaber between the wamba and Vader?
Keep in mind it took a really long time for the Falcon to limp its way to Besbin from Hoth. They also didnt show us that whole trip. that does not mean it didnt happen. By your logic no one goes to the bathroom or showers either.

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Posted (edited)

The main thing I offer is; how important is training to your narrative? For some groups the journey of having a character practice and grow is the journey; in contrast some find training boring. Watch a martial arts movie for example, is the training the character overcomes to ultimately be ready something you want to do? Or is most of the table much more interested in the adventures the group could be having? Whether onscreen training is necessary to me is directly proportional to the number of PC's in the group. Unless they are all training together, inevitability the time will be divided between several PC's. This is easy to do when there is one protagonist who must train in animal marial arts or pinching like a lady to defeat a old virgin man with white hair, but is less interesting in a movie where there are more characters. For example in star wars the training is rarely really shown in any great detail in the OT and the PT with the longest example being in Empire Strikes Back, even so it occupies a relatively small chunk of the movies total run time of a meeting this master, the demostration and undergoing a short training montage to show, not tell the passage of time. Even during this training however the strong climatic focus is ultimately on his friends who in contrast to his training is more or less constantly in danger the entire time he is on screen, until Luke feels he has no choice but to abandon his training and confront the sith lord.

The average avenger movie has only hyper condensed plot arcs in it because there is so much it has to do, as is the same with most movies. The second Avengers movie is an example where ultimately exploration arcs take a firm backseat unless it involves at least half of the party, Thor disappears off somewhere to go swimming which barely takes up 2 minutes of run time and the characters ultimate don't defeat Ultron by any direct self improvement, but in burying the hatchet and facing the great threat. I imagine most parties in this gaming system and indeed most roleplaying systems by extension probably has more in common with the avenger movies then they do with a martial arts movie where training is literally everything. The players grow stronger from uniting and facing great adversity with bravery, not by carrying water buckets up a hill to improve their core body strength. 

So how much training does it require? Depends how important that knowledge is. The Protagonists of Star Wars regularly demonstrate they need minimal instruction in order to develop their capabilities, so often being introduced to a trainer and introducing a time jump or a snippet of knowledge here or there, or even exposure to an antagonist who uses an exotic ability might be enough for the character to experiment and respond to. It all depends on the player count and what suits the table. I would love a series of adventures which are really just competitive training montages, a series of relatively low threat adventures that builds group bonding with eachother and the mentor, only to have the latter viciously torn away when the empire come and thus kick off all those corny martial arts tropes of revenge and life.

Edited by LordBritish

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16 hours ago, Decorus said:

Yoda never taught Luke how to use a lightsaber. Novels are not a part of the movies. Anyone can write a massive Fan Fic about how Rei met a Jedi on the way to see Luke who totally taught her how to use a lightsaber it doesn't make it true.

We don't know Luke got any more training thats just another attempt to justify your Rei is a Mary Sue bull. I don't know what woman hurt you to create this view point, but you need to knock it off.

Funny how if you think Rei is a Mary Sue you hate women yet many of the same people like  Ahsoka or other female characters. 

The fact you think that Luke and Rei are equal ignores the fact Luke loses his fight make me think you are the one who is trying to justify something.

 

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2 hours ago, Oldmike1 said:

Funny how if you think Rei is a Mary Sue you hate women yet many of the same people like  Ahsoka or other female characters. 

The fact you think that Luke and Rei are equal ignores the fact Luke loses his fight make me think you are the one who is trying to justify something.

 

Luke lost his first fight with Vader because, not only was he facing off against someone clearly more experienced, but Vader was at full strength. In the case of Rey and Kylo, sure, Kylo had more training in the Force and with the lightsaber specfically, bit he was also severely injured, and Rey did have extensive melee combat training and experience as well, so she wasn't a novice at hand to hand combat by a long shot. This is what enabled her to beat Kylo. 

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Rey beat Kylo in TFA because JJ Abrams wrote/directed it that way.  That's it.  Anything and everything else is just reading into it.  Movies are not made by strictly adhering to setting lore or setting logic set up.  Usually it tries to stay within the realm of "realistic" but erring on the side of interesting.  And some fans will find some things more believable than others or fault the story making for not including some elements etc and others will read bad motives into those doing it.  This is the nature of fandom since forever.  This argument will never end and never go anywhere, never convince anyone of anything.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Luke lost his first fight with Vader because, not only was he facing off against someone clearly more experienced, but Vader was at full strength. In the case of Rey and Kylo, sure, Kylo had more training in the Force and with the lightsaber specfically, bit he was also severely injured, and Rey did have extensive melee combat training and experience as well, so she wasn't a novice at hand to hand combat by a long shot. This is what enabled her to beat Kylo. 

Also, it's made pretty clear that Kylo is also a "padawan" or equivalent for the Sith.  Snoke says flat out that he needs to return to the HQ or whatever to continue with his training, so it's not like he was a 20 year Sith Lord or some such, with decades of combat experience as a Jedi, and then again as a Magical Murderbot.   We also actually see him kill what, ONE person in that film, 2 at most?  The old man who was already caught by the troopers in the opening scene, and was basically just executed.  And then Han, who didn't fight back.  So his "skill" with a lightsaber is equally nebulous based on the films.   For all we know he's been doing nothing but practice, with no actual combat experience with the saber.  The equivalent of someone who has trained for years in a martial arts, but never actually fought anyone.  And as someone who would fit that description myself, I can definitely say that practice is great, but real world application is something else.

He was also shot in the gut by a weapon that, to everyone else without plot armor, are flung dozens of yards away, and usually EXPLODES on impact.   So yeah, that's kind of a heavy caliber weapon to take to the gut.   He was also emotionally wrecked from just murdering his father, openly bleeding from said gut wound, and also injured a little bit from fighting Finn.  So yeah, she was like his Round 4 fight that night, after a lot of other stuff going on.  

Plus he's the Antagonist, which means he loses, that's just how those things work 99% of the time in storytelling.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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21 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

  

Plus he's the Antagonist, which means he loses, that's just how those things work 99% of the time in storytelling.

This is pretty much how I see the Sith. I liked them better before we knew anything about them, and when they served the story. 

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21 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Also, it's made pretty clear that Kylo is also a "padawan" or equivalent for the Sith.  Snoke says flat out that he needs to return to the HQ or whatever to continue with his training, so it's not like he was a 20 year Sith Lord or some such, with decades of combat experience as a Jedi, and then again as a Magical Murderbot.   We also actually see him kill what, ONE person in that film, 2 at most?  The old man who was already caught by the troopers in the opening scene, and was basically just executed.  And then Han, who didn't fight back.  So his "skill" with a lightsaber is equally nebulous based on the films.   For all we know he's been doing nothing but practice, with no actual combat experience with the saber.  The equivalent of someone who has trained for years in a martial arts, but never actually fought anyone.  And as someone who would fit that description myself, I can definitely say that practice is great, but real world application is something else.

He was also shot in the gut by a weapon that, to everyone else without plot armor, are flung dozens of yards away, and usually EXPLODES on impact.   So yeah, that's kind of a heavy caliber weapon to take to the gut.   He was also emotionally wrecked from just murdering his father, openly bleeding from said gut wound, and also injured a little bit from fighting Finn.  So yeah, she was like his Round 4 fight that night, after a lot of other stuff going on.  

Plus he's the Antagonist, which means he loses, that's just how those things work 99% of the time in storytelling.

Darth Vader was a Sith and he beat Obi-wan in A New Hope and Luke handily in Empire. So if your view is Kylo has to lose because he is the antagonist. Well that is just Lazy and does not raise the stakes and does not allow character growth.

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44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Darth Vader was a Sith and he beat Obi-wan in A New Hope and Luke handily in Empire. So if your view is Kylo has to lose because he is the antagonist. Well that is just Lazy and does not raise the stakes and does not allow character growth.

And got shot out of the sky by a rickety-looking freighter that was the in-universe equivalent of some dude's aging van with a couple of SAW's bolted on, failing to protect what was in that film the Empire's biggest advantage in dealing with the Rebels.  Most people would call that a pretty substantial loss.  Yes, he killed Obi-Wan, but the old man had to go so that Luke could begin to step out of Ben's shadow and begin to stand as a hero, thus serving the narrative of the film that was Luke's transition from backwater farmboy to burgeoning hero.

Even Empire could be construed Vader as having elements of loss with regards to his personal agenda, as the only things he really succeeded at was rattling Luke's confidence (from which Luke recovers from in time for the next film's big fight scene) and handing off Han to a bounty hunter (which frankly was a minor item on his to-do list).  Beyond that, he's got no Luke, no Leia (an important prisoner for the Empire to be sure), and the ploy to sabotage the Falcon to prevent the escape of those two also failed.  Though nobody really minds because Vader is this cool-looking dude with a memorable voice and some really good villainous dialogue.  And RotJ was one big bundle of failure on his part, as he accomplished none of the goals he started the film out with, apart from deposing the Emperor, but even that could be dismissed as his motivation for doing so had very much changed by the point he pulled it off since (at least if you go by supplemental materials) he initially wanted to do so to usurp the position of master but at the end did it to save his son and end the Sith.

In terms of telling a story, in any story in whatever genre one picks, the question has to be asked "where does the story go if the bad guy wins?"  For TFA, if Kylo won, killing Finn and turning Rey into the Harley to his Joker, then a large part of the three-part story stops dead as the two new protagonists are toast.  Rogue One gets away with killing their entire main cast simply because the writers were allowed to treat them all as disposable, something that JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson weren't permitted as Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo are needed for the subsequent film in the trilogy.  It'll be interesting to see if all four of them make it to the end of Episode 9 alive.

It's why the films where the villain well and truly wins are so memorable; classic example is Chinatown, where the main villain gets exactly what they wanted and how they wanted it without any repercussions.  But that was a noir flick which is a genre where the hero counts himself lucky to have a mildly bittersweet ending, as opposed to the space opera genre where the heroes having a mostly happy ending by the time things wrap up is the norm, to such an extent that when ESB came out, it suffered a huge amount of critical and public backlash for subverting that tradition, with TLJ following ESB in that the only victory the Resistance survivors can claim is that they survived, as it's pretty much the First Order winning the day.

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52 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And got shot out of the sky by a rickety-looking freighter that was the in-universe equivalent of some dude's aging van with a couple of SAW's bolted on, failing to protect what was in that film the Empire's biggest advantage in dealing with the Rebels.  Most people would call that a pretty substantial loss.  Yes, he killed Obi-Wan, but the old man had to go so that Luke could begin to step out of Ben's shadow and begin to stand as a hero, thus serving the narrative of the film that was Luke's transition from backwater farmboy to burgeoning hero.

Even Empire could be construed Vader as having elements of loss with regards to his personal agenda, as the only things he really succeeded at was rattling Luke's confidence (from which Luke recovers from in time for the next film's big fight scene) and handing off Han to a bounty hunter (which frankly was a minor item on his to-do list).  Beyond that, he's got no Luke, no Leia (an important prisoner for the Empire to be sure), and the ploy to sabotage the Falcon to prevent the escape of those two also failed.  Though nobody really minds because Vader is this cool-looking dude with a memorable voice and some really good villainous dialogue.  And RotJ was one big bundle of failure on his part, as he accomplished none of the goals he started the film out with, apart from deposing the Emperor, but even that could be dismissed as his motivation for doing so had very much changed by the point he pulled it off since (at least if you go by supplemental materials) he initially wanted to do so to usurp the position of master but at the end did it to save his son and end the Sith.

In terms of telling a story, in any story in whatever genre one picks, the question has to be asked "where does the story go if the bad guy wins?"  For TFA, if Kylo won, killing Finn and turning Rey into the Harley to his Joker, then a large part of the three-part story stops dead as the two new protagonists are toast.  Rogue One gets away with killing their entire main cast simply because the writers were allowed to treat them all as disposable, something that JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson weren't permitted as Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo are needed for the subsequent film in the trilogy.  It'll be interesting to see if all four of them make it to the end of Episode 9 alive.

It's why the films where the villain well and truly wins are so memorable; classic example is Chinatown, where the main villain gets exactly what they wanted and how they wanted it without any repercussions.  But that was a noir flick which is a genre where the hero counts himself lucky to have a mildly bittersweet ending, as opposed to the space opera genre where the heroes having a mostly happy ending by the time things wrap up is the norm, to such an extent that when ESB came out, it suffered a huge amount of critical and public backlash for subverting that tradition, with TLJ following ESB in that the only victory the Resistance survivors can claim is that they survived, as it's pretty much the First Order winning the day.

A villain win does not have to be the good guys fall to the dark side. It could be the good guy had to run away and another goodnguy is frozen in carbonite 

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Posted (edited)

Another point I think that people conveniently overlook, is Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey.  He was trying to get her to join him, due to their connection.  He wanted to have someone in his life that he kind of sort or maybe perhaps had a thing for, at the very least felt a connection to.   He even uses the "hey I can get the map from her if you help me." excuse when talking to Snoke in FA, when Snoke talks about using the big weapon.   When this is brought up, Snoke specifically tells Kylo to bring her to him.  So he was going in trying to subdue her, and apparently he'd rather do that via persuasion, instead of hurting her.  Which isn't really a big surprise.   For a "Sith" he's incredibly light on the violence to living things, compared to the standard we're used to.  He lashes out multiple times in that film when angry, but does so against inanimate objects.  He specifically doesn't just kill people left and right, for minor annoyances.  They've gone out of their way to prevent him from piling up a body count (I suspect because they are going for a redemption arc with him, so avoiding having him kill hundreds does make that easier.)   He states that he keeps struggling with the "call to the Light", which can easily be read as "not being a ****, and maybe not killing people because I don't actually like it."  So when presented with the one person in the galaxy still alive, that he has even the remotest feelings for, coupled with the orders from his commander to bring her in alive, he wasn't even trying to "go all out" on her, coupled with all of the above mentioned injuries/etc.  

Edited by KungFuFerret

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Another point I think that people conveniently overlook, is Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey.  He was trying to get her to join him, due to their connection.  He wanted to have someone in his life that he kind of sort or maybe perhaps had a thing for, at the very least felt a connection to.   He even uses the "hey I can get the map from her if you help me." excuse when talking to Snoke in FA, when Snoke talks about using the big weapon.   When this is brought up, Snoke specifically tells Kylo to bring her to him.  So he was going in trying to subdue her, and apparently he'd rather do that via persuasion, instead of hurting her.  Which isn't really a big surprise.   For a "Sith" he's incredibly light on the violence to living things, compared to the standard we're used to.  He lashes out multiple times in that film when angry, but does so against inanimate objects.  He specifically doesn't just kill people left and right, for minor annoyances.  They've gone out of their way to prevent him from piling up a body count (I suspect because they are going for a redemption arc with him, so avoiding having him kill hundreds does make that easier.)   He states that he keeps struggling with the "call to the Light", which can easily be read as "not being a ****, and maybe not killing people because I don't actually like it."  So when presented with the one person in the galaxy still alive, that he has even the remotest feelings for, coupled with the orders from his commander to bring her in alive, he wasn't even trying to "go all out" on her, coupled with all of the above mentioned injuries/etc.  

It's similar to Vader not going "all out" on Luke in ESB, because let's be honest, the only reason Luke survived that fight was that Vader was trying to recruit Luke as his apprentice to eventually overthrow Palps.  The only time we really see Vader cut loose is towards the very end of the duel, after Luke gets in that shot at Vader's shoulder, and the fight conclusively ends very soon after.  It's made clear that Vader was toying with Luke the entire time, and could have ended the fight much sooner if his intent was to just kill Luke and be done with it.

With Kylo, it's true that his goal with Rey was subdual and capture, but again she was fairly fresh while he was badly wounded by a weapon that up to that point in the film had a 100% GTFO ratio against whatever was shot by it.  With Finn, I suspect that fight dragged out as long as it did because Kylo wanted to toy with the traitor, which proved to be a detriment as Finn got in a lucky shot of his own to further hamper Kylo's fighting ability by injuring the shoulder of his primary sword arm.

I'll be darned if I can find it, but I do recall watching a YouTube video about that fight, and the host (who had some practical sword experience and was a SaberGuild member) noted that the Rey vs. Kylo fight is pretty believable given the disadvantages that Kylo had going into and that Rey's primary tactic up until the very end was evasion so as to try and further wear her larger, stronger, and better-trained opponent out.

He did remark that based upon what we saw of Obi-Wan in Episode 1 and Ahsoka in TCW, more likely than not even a completely fresh and uninjured Kylo would get his black-clad butt handed to him on a platter by your average Jedi Knight in fairly short order, and that a Jedi who focused on lightsaber dueling would just steamroll the boy, whose own "form" was at best comparable to Shii-Cho or very rudimentary Djem So, with over-exaggerated lunges and sweeps being the central elements of his swordplay.  Even a seasoned Padawan that had trained in Makashi or Soresu would have a fairly simple time of dueling with Kylo, while an Ataru expert would just flat-out overwhelm Kylo's meager defenses.  Don't recall if Niman or Shii-Cho got special mention, beyond the "a properly trained Jedi Padawan would be able to defeat Kylo's unpolished technique."  But as has been said, Kylo's training wasn't complete in TFA, and it's likely what little he did learn about lightsaber dueling came from his uncle Luke, whose own training was haphazard at best and instead got by on sheer talent.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's similar to Vader not going "all out" on Luke in ESB, because let's be honest, the only reason Luke survived that fight was that Vader was trying to recruit Luke as his apprentice to eventually overthrow Palps.  The only time we really see Vader cut loose is towards the very end of the duel, after Luke gets in that shot at Vader's shoulder, and the fight conclusively ends very soon after.  It's made clear that Vader was toying with Luke the entire time, and could have ended the fight much sooner if his intent was to just kill Luke and be done with it.

With Kylo, it's true that his goal with Rey was subdual and capture, but again she was fairly fresh while he was badly wounded by a weapon that up to that point in the film had a 100% GTFO ratio against whatever was shot by it.  With Finn, I suspect that fight dragged out as long as it did because Kylo wanted to toy with the traitor, which proved to be a detriment as Finn got in a lucky shot of his own to further hamper Kylo's fighting ability by injuring the shoulder of his primary sword arm.

I'll be darned if I can find it, but I do recall watching a YouTube video about that fight, and the host (who had some practical sword experience and was a SaberGuild member) noted that the Rey vs. Kylo fight is pretty believable given the disadvantages that Kylo had going into and that Rey's primary tactic up until the very end was evasion so as to try and further wear her larger, stronger, and better-trained opponent out.

He did remark that based upon what we saw of Obi-Wan in Episode 1 and Ahsoka in TCW, more likely than not even a completely fresh and uninjured Kylo would get his black-clad butt handed to him on a platter by your average Jedi Knight in fairly short order, and that a Jedi who focused on lightsaber dueling would just steamroll the boy, whose own "form" was at best comparable to Shii-Cho or very rudimentary Djem So, with over-exaggerated lunges and sweeps being the central elements of his swordplay.  Even a seasoned Padawan that had trained in Makashi or Soresu would have a fairly simple time of dueling with Kylo, while an Ataru expert would just flat-out overwhelm Kylo's meager defenses.  Don't recall if Niman or Shii-Cho got special mention, beyond the "a properly trained Jedi Padawan would be able to defeat Kylo's unpolished technique."  But as has been said, Kylo's training wasn't complete in TFA, and it's likely what little he did learn about lightsaber dueling came from his uncle Luke, whose own training was haphazard at best and instead got by on sheer talent.

Sure. The problem is it comes across as Rey can never fail. Especially combined with her doing so well against a bunch of highly trained Praetorian guards about week later at best and they do not have any of those injuries. But more like a 2 or 3 days. And that is why the Last Jedi has brought out much more of the Mary Sue complaints. Because there was a low rumble before the Last Jedi but after it got much much worse. Largely because Ryan Johnson basically threw away all the setup JJ made. Which I think is the bigger problem. As using that set up would have at least explained things better about her abilities.

Edited by Daeglan

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14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. The problem is it comes across as Rey can never fail. Especially combined with her doing so well against a bunch of highly trained Praetorian guards about week later at best and they do not have any of those injuries. But more like a 2 or 3 days. And that is why the Last Jedi has brought out much more of the Mary Sue complaints. Because there was a low rumble before the Last Jedi but after it got much much worse. Largely because Ryan Johnson basically threw away all the setup JJ made. Which I think is the bigger problem. As using that set up would have at least explained things better about her abilities.

Actually, the mary sue stuff started well before Ep8.  Very soon after Ep7 actually.  Prior to release, and immediately following release, the complaints about Ep7 were majority racist and sexist based.  Can't have a female lead, can't have black stormtroopers, stuff like that.  It was blatant and therefor people ridiculed it or ignored it.  But there was a subset of people that didn't like it for those reasons, but didn't want to be so blatant.  They didn't want to show their hand.  This is where Max Landis comes in.  Max Landis has a pretty big following in the incel, mra, gamergate communities.  Many of the things he's previously said fall in line with things they like to hear.  When he announced that he thought Rey was a Mary Sue it gave them a legitimate, intelligent sounding soundbite they could use.  Basically overnight the term Mary Sue got co-opted by those groups as a dog whistle of their hatred towards women (it's been bandied about for every female led movie since).  But since the term is a legitimate descriptive tool used in literary circles, it gives them an air of legitimacy to their argument.

After that, the term was used, legitimately by non-sexist people that were disappointed by the movie.  It became another arrow in their quiver of complaints.  The problem is two-fold with the usage though.  First, it's co-opted by sexist individuals that use it in bad faith.  Secondly, she's on par with Luke and Anakin in this respect, so the argument seems disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is that Rey is no more (or less) a Mary Sue than Luke, Anakin, or even Solo.  The various failures, successes, and growth stories behind the characters are all quite similar.  Luke does all sorts of fantastical things prior to being trained in the force.  ****, he breaks into the largest Imperial facility in the galaxy, bumbles about, saves a princess, escapes said facility, then illogically pilots one of a limited number of fighters in an incredibly important battle and is the person that despite lack of experience and lack of training in the force, uses the force to destroy the death star.

Rey probably qualifies as a Mary Sue.  Many heroic figures in movies do.  But Anakin and Luke most certainly qualify also.  If you are nitpicking scenes to show that one time that Luke sort of failed, or how this fight went slightly different from that fight, you've already conceded the argument.  Beyond that, every nitpick argument I've ever seen can be found in one of the other storylines also.  The base explanation for why Anakin and Luke were so darn successful at everything was that they were 'strong with the force'.  Everyone was content with that explanation for decades.  Yet when Rey does the same stuff, she's a Mary Sue.  That concept alone, on the surface, appears very sexist.

Humans can't podrace, but Anakin, a child, can win a race against the best.  He's strong in the force.  Anakin, a child, with no space piloting or combat experience, can start up a starfighter, use it's weapons, fly into space, engage in combat, and luck into destroying a major military target saving a planet.  He's strong in the force.  While suffering from injuries and exposure, luke, without training, can use the force to pull a lightsaber from a snowbank and cut himself free and use it to fight a snow monster.  He's strong in the force.  Luke uses the force to make his attack on the Death Star, blowing it up.  He's strong in the force.  Rey pilots the millenium falcon in combat with 2 tie fighters. Mary Sue.  Rey, clearly skilled with martial combat, stands her own (does not win) against an injured sith apprentice that is still in training, after learning about her connection to the force.  Mary Sue.

If your opinion is Rey is a Mary sure, fine.  But then acknowledge that so are Luke, Anakin, and likely a slew of other Star Wars characters from the movies.  Star Wars movies are lousy with Mary Sues.  Sadly, the cartoon shows do a much better job of actually fleshing out characters and their full personality.  But that's likely an issue with having much more time to explore those elements.

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3 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Actually, the mary sue stuff started well before Ep8.  Very soon after Ep7 actually.  Prior to release, and immediately following release, the complaints about Ep7 were majority racist and sexist based.  Can't have a female lead, can't have black stormtroopers, stuff like that.  It was blatant and therefor people ridiculed it or ignored it.  But there was a subset of people that didn't like it for those reasons, but didn't want to be so blatant.  They didn't want to show their hand.  This is where Max Landis comes in.  Max Landis has a pretty big following in the incel, mra, gamergate communities.  Many of the things he's previously said fall in line with things they like to hear.  When he announced that he thought Rey was a Mary Sue it gave them a legitimate, intelligent sounding soundbite they could use.  Basically overnight the term Mary Sue got co-opted by those groups as a dog whistle of their hatred towards women (it's been bandied about for every female led movie since).  But since the term is a legitimate descriptive tool used in literary circles, it gives them an air of legitimacy to their argument.

After that, the term was used, legitimately by non-sexist people that were disappointed by the movie.  It became another arrow in their quiver of complaints.  The problem is two-fold with the usage though.  First, it's co-opted by sexist individuals that use it in bad faith.  Secondly, she's on par with Luke and Anakin in this respect, so the argument seems disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is that Rey is no more (or less) a Mary Sue than Luke, Anakin, or even Solo.  The various failures, successes, and growth stories behind the characters are all quite similar.  Luke does all sorts of fantastical things prior to being trained in the force.  ****, he breaks into the largest Imperial facility in the galaxy, bumbles about, saves a princess, escapes said facility, then illogically pilots one of a limited number of fighters in an incredibly important battle and is the person that despite lack of experience and lack of training in the force, uses the force to destroy the death star.

Rey probably qualifies as a Mary Sue.  Many heroic figures in movies do.  But Anakin and Luke most certainly qualify also.  If you are nitpicking scenes to show that one time that Luke sort of failed, or how this fight went slightly different from that fight, you've already conceded the argument.  Beyond that, every nitpick argument I've ever seen can be found in one of the other storylines also.  The base explanation for why Anakin and Luke were so darn successful at everything was that they were 'strong with the force'.  Everyone was content with that explanation for decades.  Yet when Rey does the same stuff, she's a Mary Sue.  That concept alone, on the surface, appears very sexist.

Humans can't podrace, but Anakin, a child, can win a race against the best.  He's strong in the force.  Anakin, a child, with no space piloting or combat experience, can start up a starfighter, use it's weapons, fly into space, engage in combat, and luck into destroying a major military target saving a planet.  He's strong in the force.  While suffering from injuries and exposure, luke, without training, can use the force to pull a lightsaber from a snowbank and cut himself free and use it to fight a snow monster.  He's strong in the force.  Luke uses the force to make his attack on the Death Star, blowing it up.  He's strong in the force.  Rey pilots the millenium falcon in combat with 2 tie fighters. Mary Sue.  Rey, clearly skilled with martial combat, stands her own (does not win) against an injured sith apprentice that is still in training, after learning about her connection to the force.  Mary Sue.

If your opinion is Rey is a Mary sure, fine.  But then acknowledge that so are Luke, Anakin, and likely a slew of other Star Wars characters from the movies.  Star Wars movies are lousy with Mary Sues.  Sadly, the cartoon shows do a much better job of actually fleshing out characters and their full personality.  But that's likely an issue with having much more time to explore those elements.

I like how you basically ignored what i actually said. Then went on about what you decided i said. Which is a major part of why the fandom is divided. Instead of actually listening you decide what the other person must believe and thus can dismiss what they said.

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16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The problem is it comes across as Rey can never fail.

She sure turned Ben Solo back to the light, proving her claim it could be done.

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Especially combined with her doing so well against a bunch of highly trained Praetorian guards about week later at best and they do not have any of those injuries.

It's also worth noting that Kylo takes out 5 of them, while Rey deals with 3. Also, she pretty much fails miserably in everything she tries against Snoke.

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Largely because Ryan Johnson basically threw away all the setup JJ made. Which I think is the bigger problem. 

JJ doesn't do setup. He throws out stuff that sounds like setup and only occasionally follows up on it. See also Steven Moffat.

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