some interesting insights into the Force, Jedi, and galactic history from a new interview with Lucas

[KungFuFerret 4,120]

49 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

But I don't think it is outright garbage to have them pursuing the goal of being able to not fall prey to their passions.  

Do you think I'm making that assertion about the Jedi?  That it's garbage for them to control their emotional impulses?  Because if so, I'm confused about what I've posted would lead you to think that was my stance.  I am, and always have been of the opinion that the Jedi have emotions, and that their teachings are to teach people control and discipline, to keep their emotions in check in stressful, dangerous situations.

  I honestly don't understand what all the confusion is about (not you specifically, just in general.  It seems pretty straight-forward if you look at the OT.  Luke is training, Yoda is giving him advice.  He's standing on a hand, floating stuff, and suddenly starts having visions.  Yoda tells him that he will see things, other places.  The future, the past, old friends long gone.   Friends, that's something you have, because you LIKE them, possibly even to the level of love.  People without emotions (which are fairly rare, and are considered psychologically atypical from the norm usually), don't have "friends", you have to have an emotional connection with someone to label them as a friend.   So if Yoda talks about friends, that means he has emotions.   Fairly simple.   Then, immediately after that, Luke sees his friends in trouble, loses his focus, and falls.  Yoda tells him "You must learn control!", while also clearly being annoyed (an emotion) with Luke's progress.   If you have no emotions, you don't need to control them to focus on the Force.  You need control, if it's expected you will have emotions, and it's understood they will likely influence your choice of possible actions in any given situation, and that you should probably think for a second, collect yourself, and consider the situation for a few moments, before going off half-cocked.  

57 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

You can make decisions that are altruistic without being emotionally fueled. 

Correct, again, I wasn't saying anything to the contrary, so I'm just assuming you are stating your thoughts on this in general, and not directly responding to something I said?

[Archlyte 1,227]

34 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Do you think I'm making that assertion about the Jedi?  That it's garbage for them to control their emotional impulses?  Because if so, I'm confused about what I've posted would lead you to think that was my stance.  I am, and always have been of the opinion that the Jedi have emotions, and that their teachings are to teach people control and discipline, to keep their emotions in check in stressful, dangerous situations.

  I honestly don't understand what all the confusion is about (not you specifically, just in general.  It seems pretty straight-forward if you look at the OT.  Luke is training, Yoda is giving him advice.  He's standing on a hand, floating stuff, and suddenly starts having visions.  Yoda tells him that he will see things, other places.  The future, the past, old friends long gone.   Friends, that's something you have, because you LIKE them, possibly even to the level of love.  People without emotions (which are fairly rare, and are considered psychologically atypical from the norm usually), don't have "friends", you have to have an emotional connection with someone to label them as a friend.   So if Yoda talks about friends, that means he has emotions.   Fairly simple.   Then, immediately after that, Luke sees his friends in trouble, loses his focus, and falls.  Yoda tells him "You must learn control!", while also clearly being annoyed (an emotion) with Luke's progress.   If you have no emotions, you don't need to control them to focus on the Force.  You need control, if it's expected you will have emotions, and it's understood they will likely influence your choice of possible actions in any given situation, and that you should probably think for a second, collect yourself, and consider the situation for a few moments, before going off half-cocked.  

Correct, again, I wasn't saying anything to the contrary, so I'm just assuming you are stating your thoughts on this in general, and not directly responding to something I said?

Yeah I think we are probably more in agreement than not on this. Sometimes in these discussions artificially contentious-sounding stuff comes up because we are talking about points.  

[HappyDaze 10,108]

5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

The EU novelizations and later game content is really just a lot of fan fiction: no better and no worse. 

This applies equally well to the new canon novels. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

One of the biggest problems is there was not a person in charge of keeping canon straight before and Lucas didnt care enough to keep it all straight. We now have story group but I suspect Story group does not have the authority to set standards on things from the top. So when a new movie gets made it is canon and pushes everything else out of the way. But that just leads to messy world building. It would be nice if Lucasfilm took a page from Marvel.

[Archlyte 1,227]

49 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

This applies equally well to the new canon novels. 

I agree. I read Aftermath and it just felt like the movie of the week for the most part. There were a few good bits but overall it was mediocre. There is a scene where a female Imperial Admiral strips down while talking to her female orderly or whatever. Involuntary eyeroll. Also they made a killing machine out of a B1, which is not a killing machine but something more like animated concertina wire. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

One of the biggest problems is there was not a person in charge of keeping canon straight before and Lucas didnt care enough to keep it all straight. We now have story group but I suspect Story group does not have the authority to set standards on things from the top. So when a new movie gets made it is canon and pushes everything else out of the way. But that just leads to messy world building. It would be nice if Lucasfilm took a page from Marvel.

Unfortunately Story Group seems a bit like Image Group in practice. I think the idea was a good one but the staff employed are not purists. Also Pablo is as wishy washy as a paper straw. He will say well it's supposed to be like this but whatever is good. He comes from RPGs originally so there's that as well. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

21 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I agree. I read Aftermath and it just felt like the movie of the week for the most part. There were a few good bits but overall it was mediocre. There is a scene where a female Imperial Admiral strips down while talking to her female orderly or whatever. Involuntary eyeroll. Also they made a killing machine out of a B1, which is not a killing machine but something more like animated concertina wire. 

Ir is also written presrnt tense which is weird. And you can literally see the message check marks being checked off. In the writing. And then he flipped out on fans when they rightfully com0lained about the bad writing

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Ir is also written presrnt tense which is weird. And you can literally see the message check marks being checked off. In the writing. And then he flipped out on fans when they rightfully com0lained about the bad writing

Lol. Man that is a really big mistake. He should have been gracious instead of trying to shout down those voices. I also forgot about the present tense. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

5 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Lol. Man that is a really big mistake. He should have been gracious instead of trying to shout down those voices. I also forgot about the present tense. 

Present tense is weird for a book. And it is gonna turn off readers. 

Andi saw a lot of attacking people complaining about the writing and claiming homophobia so he could dismiss the complaints. I think it is one of the first places i saw throw a convenient label on detractors and then dismiss them. Which i see all too often now.

[Archlyte 1,227]

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Present tense is weird for a book. And it is gonna turn off readers. 

Andi saw a lot of attacking people complaining about the writing and claiming homophobia so he could dismiss the complaints. I think it is one of the first places i saw throw a convenient label on detractors and then dismiss them. Which i see all too often now.

I agree, that's lame. It is really as you said just basically saying Shut Up cause I can't debate you on this. It also de-values the accusation. I felt the two mothers of the boy were such a background element that I don't know why it would be even a point of critique. Also the present tense thing was weird. Was like reading a screen play in some ways which I don't enjoy really. 

[Ghostofman 8,319]

14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Unfortunately Story Group seems a bit like Image Group in practice. I think the idea was a good one but the staff employed are not purists. Also Pablo is as wishy washy as a paper straw. He will say well it's supposed to be like this but whatever is good. He comes from RPGs originally so there's that as well. 

Well I've always suspected that the purpose of the story group was more about continuity than canon. Who's where when, not deep inner workings of the force or power output of a Mk3 Turbolaser cannon. 

I think they should also be in charge of the writers bible, but I doubt they do, or if they do its not as tight as such documents usually are. For better or worse. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Well I've always suspected that the purpose of the story group was more about continuity than canon. Who's where when, not deep inner workings of the force or power output of a Mk3 Turbolaser cannon. 

I think they should also be in charge of the writers bible, but I doubt they do, or if they do its not as tight as such documents usually are. For better or worse. 

I think continuity would be a great goal for them, and I think that less needs to be answered as far as inner workings. They seem to me to be kind of light on original feel and heavy on their own versions of things. 

[Kirdan Kenobi 167]

Given that there were a ton of things in prequels that contradicted the original trilogy, it rather devalues the significance of Lucas' stated intent, I think. Personally I think what matters is what is actually shown in the movies, not what George intended to be in the movies, especially two decades after the fact. Though I certainly wouldn't argue that Jedi were meant to be emotionless, the prequels make it very clear that attachment is forbidden. Attachment and possessiveness are not anywhere close to the same thing. When put into context with Yoda's advice to Anakin, it seems that the prescribed Jedi way, as actually portrayed in the movies, is to avoid caring about anyone or anything on a personal level. I've taken this to be a large reason why the Jedi fell.

Another thing to consider is that some (though hardly all, or even a majority) of the EU novels were simply better stories than the prequel trilogy, and more consistent with original trilogy. Though George Lucas came up with the original ideas for Star Wars, the story we ended up with in OT was not solely the product of Lucas. Though I look far more favorably upon the prequels now, after seeing what Disney has done with the franchise, they remain as an example of the difference between George's imagination + yes men vs George's imagination + creative partners.

I think the biggest reason for the problems that Lucasfilm had with continuity errors was that they kept using authors who didn't do their research into the established lore. I also think it was rather demeaning for Lucas to tell authors that their works could be overwritten, yet make no effort to future-proof them by reading them and suggesting changes.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kirdan Kenobi
Removed Typo

[Raicheck 105]

Y'know, the wonderful thing about TTRPG's, is that it ultimately doesn't matter all that much what anyone says who isn't at your table.  Putting aside what is, and what isn't canon, we have an embarrassing amount of source material to work with.   Between the EU, the Movies, the TV Shows, the Video Games, and the Nu Canon, we have the ability to pick and choose what we want in our games.    ****, my own current campaign the setting pulls deep from the Kotor/Swtor material, some EU stuff, Nu Canon, and a liberally interpreted version of the unknown regions, all of which is designed to allow me to dip into the First Order/Resistance themes if I so choose to do so later on down the line.     

 

As a matter of course though, I do tend to avoid the major movie NPC's and plots as a matter of course, as the game is centered around the PC's as the primary protagonists.  It's their story.    So events that do happen, such as the death star blowing up, or mentions of Jedi masters like Luke Skywalker tend to be background filler, not front and center.  

So ultimately, it doesn't matter what Lucas or the Story group says.   Make it your own story.

 

 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

43 minutes ago, Raicheck said:

So ultimately, it doesn't matter what Lucas or the Story group says.   Make it your own story.

Where is the idea that Lucas' comments would in any way be limiting to games, intentionally or not, coming from? I'm bewildered that people keep bringing this up as if anyone was telling them what they're allowed to do in their games.

[Kirdan Kenobi 167]

13 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where is the idea that Lucas' comments would in any way be limiting to games, intentionally or not, coming from? I'm bewildered that people keep bringing this up as if anyone was telling them what they're allowed to do in their games.

I think there are two answers to this question.

The first answer is that that these types of things become relevant to gaming when one is attempting to play accurately based on lore. The issue becomes though, what material takes precedence over others?

The second answer is that non-rpg Star Wars discussions happen here from time to time.

[Raicheck 105]

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where is the idea that Lucas' comments would in any way be limiting to games, intentionally or not, coming from? I'm bewildered that people keep bringing this up as if anyone was telling them what they're allowed to do in their games.

Because there is a small subset of individuals who want to make sure any games ran, are ran according to some holy bible of canon.  Some of the old forums I was on for various games were notorious for  that behavior anytime a lore discussion came up.  I've been gaming for a quite a while, so it might just be a hard wired response to lore discussions.   

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 hours ago, Raicheck said:

Because there is a small subset of individuals who want to make sure any games ran, are ran according to some holy bible of canon.  Some of the old forums I was on for various games were notorious for  that behavior anytime a lore discussion came up.  I've been gaming for a quite a while, so it might just be a hard wired response to lore discussions.   

Disclaimer: My opinion and not meant to apply to anyone else.

Amen to this. I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Saw the first movie when I was 6 in 1977 in a theatre where we lived at the time, Modesto California. I almost can't remember a time in my life without Star Wars. It has shaped me. 

But I don't dress up like star wars characters and go to conventions. I don't have a room full of toys that are mint in box. I played KOTOR but lost interest halfway through. I don't find it amusing that there is a transformer that goes from a tie fighter into a Vader robot. And the EU novels and comics leave me wishing I hadn't picked them up. 

I don't relate to that stuff and I don't have any interest in a game that is the completionist's version of canon. Most of that stuff is simply foreign to me and it feels tacked on. It reminds me of a time a kid told me about the dream he had last night but then kept on adding stuff to keep my attention until the original idea was lost. 

To me non-canon table versions of the game are just as valid because they use what you like best about Star Wars. 

[TyrisFlare 14]

This is just another reminder that Lucas has not been worth listening to for a very long time.

[BipolarJuice 166]

On 6/1/2019 at 6:45 AM, TyrisFlare said:

This is just another reminder that Lucas has not been worth listening to for a very long time.

Accurate. He flips on his own positions more than a politician.

[Daeglan 5,950]

He does suffer from lack of consistancy and ooo shiny ism

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

On 5/28/2019 at 3:06 PM, KungFuFerret said:

"I think you're wrong!" "Well I think YOU"RE wrong!"

From my point of view the Jedi are evil!

[Ghostofman 8,319]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:10 AM, Daeglan said:

He does suffer from lack of consistancy and ooo shiny ism

I recall an article about the fall of LucasArts. There were a pair of anecdotes where the staff on a game's development were briefing George.

They're briefing him on... some game, I want to say Maul, and get partway in, when George gets up, and walks over to a display shelf of Star Wars stuff. He picks up a Maul figure, and a Talon figure, holds them up in front  of everyone and says: "These two are friends." Then it talked about how long it took them after to talk him out of it and to get him back on track.

The other.... They're doing an update on 1313, after the demo video had dropped, the game was well into production, and a good amount playable. He stops them part way through and says. "I think this game should be about Boba Fett." They couldn't talk him down and ended up reworking it into Fett until they got cancelled.

 

To be fair, I've worked with enough high level exec types like that to confirm you need to be careful, as many can be "idea fairies" if you let their minds wander. But George's position both as head of the company and as the creative core of the franchise made his level of idea fairyness especially dangerous. One stray action figure left out as a decoration and you could lose months or years of work to "Oh, this guy looks cool, lets make it about him. Also he's a Jedi now and that's all there is to it."

[Daeglan 5,950]

38 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

I recall an article about the fall of LucasArts. There were a pair of anecdotes where the staff on a game's development were briefing George.

They're briefing him on... some game, I want to say Maul, and get partway in, when George gets up, and walks over to a display shelf of Star Wars stuff. He picks up a Maul figure, and a Talon figure, holds them up in front  of everyone and says: "These two are friends." Then it talked about how long it took them after to talk him out of it and to get him back on track.

The other.... They're doing an update on 1313, after the demo video had dropped, the game was well into production, and a good amount playable. He stops them part way through and says. "I think this game should be about Boba Fett." They couldn't talk him down and ended up reworking it into Fett until they got cancelled.

 

To be fair, I've worked with enough high level exec types like that to confirm you need to be careful, as many can be "idea fairies" if you let their minds wander. But George's position both as head of the company and as the creative core of the franchise made his level of idea fairyness especially dangerous. One stray action figure left out as a decoration and you could lose months or years of work to "Oh, this guy looks cool, lets make it about him. Also he's a Jedi now and that's all there is to it."

Yeah. I think one of the problems with the Prequels is not enough people were willing to tell him no. And to do so in a manner he would respect. I think Dave Filoni was actually better at steering George Lucas. Probably because Dave has a lot of respect for George and knows how to talk to him.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Daeglan

[HappyDaze 10,108]

30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yeah. I think one of the problems with the Prequels is not enough people were willing to tell him no. And to do so in a manner he would respect. I think Dave Filoni was actually better at steering George Lucas. Probably because Dave has a lot of respect for George and knows how to talk to him.

This problem shows up in all of the Start Wars films and the cartoons too. Maul surviving bisection and helicopter lightsabers along with the time travel between the worlds crap...

Oddly it's why I like the Old Republic stuff. They obviously had to present their ideas and get approval from someone beyond the creative team. They're certainly not perfect,  but they are more internally consistent than the films or TV stuff.