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Stan Fresh

some interesting insights into the Force, Jedi, and galactic history from a new interview with Lucas

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https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-i-the-phantom-menace-oral-history

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Everybody said, “Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.” Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody.

 

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People have a tendency to confuse it — everybody has the Force. Everybody.

 

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But the Jedi can’t be selfish. They can love but they can’t love people to the point of possession. You can’t really possess somebody, because people are free. It’s possession that causes a lot of trouble, and that causes people to kill people, and causes people to be bad. Ultimately it has to do with being unwilling to give things up.

The whole basis here is if you’re selfish, if you’re a Sith Lord, you’re greedy. You’re constantly trying to get something. And you’re constantly in fear of not getting it, or, when you get it, you’re in constant fear of losing it. And it’s that fear that takes you to the dark side. It’s that fear of losing what you have or want.

 

 

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The Empire has good technology, but what some are forgetting, or don’t know, is that the X-wings and most of the Rebellion’s ships were all sort of junkers. They picked those up at various garage sales from armies that didn’t want them anymore. Rebels, in IV, V, and VI, didn’t have the money. They just had to pick up whatever junkers they could get anywhere because they were rebels.


 

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The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”

A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It's like he never even read the novels that his company produced. The war between the Jedi and sith was not made up by the fans, there are multiple novels all about the various ways that they fought. He'll SWTOR  is a mmo  about one of the wars fought between these two factions.

Edited by amidonricky

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, amidonricky said:

It's like he never even read the novels that his company produced. The war between the Jedi and sith was not made up by the fans, there are multiple novels all about the various ways that they fought. He'll SWTOR  is a mmo  about one of the wars fought between these two factions.

And the phantom menace pretty much hints at some kind of war. Now we will reveal ourselves to the jedi now we will have our revenge....

Edited by Daeglan

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Some times I feel like he can’t remember what was published in the past (all the KotoR games talk about the Jedi sith Wars not to touch the comics from like the 80s) or he only counts what he puts out even retconing at will

 

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12 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

Some times I feel like he can’t remember what was published in the past (all the KotoR games talk about the Jedi sith Wars not to touch the comics from like the 80s) or he only counts what he puts out even retconing at will

 

I dont even think he pays attention to information he himself puts out. Like he is talking about the making of phantom menace and there not bei.g a jedi sith war. But even in the phantom menace it is implied some major even happened. The rule of 2 is known to the jedi.council. the Sith are hiding from the jedi. The jedi think they are wiped out...sounds like something really big happened to me. 

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Posted (edited)

Author's talking about the stuff they wrote and the universe they (and successors) created in retrospective is always weird. (Just mentioning J.K. Rowling or somesuch).....

At this point he either does not care at all (that's what I think) or is trying to retcon things to suit some narrative..

 

Regarding to "there was no war between sith and jedi" both Legends and even new Disney Canon have mentioned atleast 1 war with Malachor V .... and as already stated, even his own works implied larger conflicts on a galactic scale.

Edited by Fl1nt

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5 hours ago, amidonricky said:

It's like he never even read the novels that his company produced.

He's openly said as much that he hasn't done so.  And that as far as he's concerned, those novels and other media are a separate sandbox from what he's doing.  And each of those authors writing their stuff did so with the implicit understanding that Lucas could at any point go back and retcon whatever it is they wrote out of existence.  He wasn't adverse to pulling ideas from what was at the time the Expanded Universe (for instance, the existence of Aayla Secura in AotC and RotS).  And given how much of a tangled and frankly sub-par mess the Expanded Universe was by that point, I can't fault him for completely ignoring what others were doing.

I've had a chance to speak with Timothy Zahn a few times, and he said as much that when he was writing the Heir to the Empire trilogy and if he included stuff that referenced the Clone Wars (which he did), then he did so with the understanding that if Lucas ever made films about them, it was very unlikely that Zahn's stuff would be kept or even referenced.  Heck, he considered a pleasant surprise when Coruscant was kept for the prequels as the name of the Republic's central capital planet.

On the flip side, you've got the hissy fit that Karen Traviss pitched when stuff she wrote in her Republic Commando novels, namely the pathetically small troop counts for both the Grand Army and Separatists droid legions as well as the active Mando culture being a warrior cult got overridden and overruled by Filoni's Clone Wars series, especially the Mandalorians being a predominantly a peaceful culture during the war and how Jango's status as a Mandalorian was no longer the "sure thing" that Traviss had wrote it as, thus no longer making Boba Fett the destined future leader and savior of the Mandalorians.

It'd be no different than if someone other than George RR Martin wrote a book taking place in Westeros during the War of Five Kings, and GRRM eventually wrote a story that completely contradicts that.  Or someone writing a story taking place in the town of Derry during one of It's feeding sprees, and Stephen King later writing a novel that fully contradicts the events of that story.

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Gee, tough crowd.

Personally, I don't see how Phantom Menace points towards a war in the past. The Sith are plenty capable of turning on each other, with the Jedi mopping up afterwards.

That doesnt fit the revenge angla as well.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That doesnt fit the revenge angla as well.

You don't have to have a massive army, and have engaged in a battle between thousands of troops, to have a grudge against a group, and decide you want to wipe them out via terrorism and sabotage.   You need religious doctrine teaching you that "They" slighted you and your ways (even if that's only two of you), and the drive to do whatever it takes to punish them for said transgressions.  

The Sith could easily just be a cult of Dark Side force users, that got a handful of followers, but given how much of a mess they were making in some section of the galaxy, the Jedi went to go stamp them out.  One or two survived, and vowed revenge.   I've seriously lost count of the number of stories that have used that very plot to show a small group of people, set up stuff to bring down a larger organization.   Heck, Civil War is exactly that.  ONE GUY, who was personally angry due to something Tony did, decided to set in motion a massive plan, that tore apart the Avengers, and set up government sanctions against Heroes.  He wasn't part of an army, he was just a guy, grief stricken, and murderously motivated to accomplish his goal.   

The Sith grudge against the Jedi could be something just as small and simple.  

 

OT:  I'm glad he finally said that the Jedi can love and feel emotions, so maybe the fan base will shut the **** up about the Jedi being Vulcans, and how they purge themselves of all emotions, and anyone that doesn't play them like this is "Doing It Wrong", despite NO evidence of any canon Jedi acting without the existence of emotions in their lives.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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1 hour ago, kaosoe said:

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what Lucas says or how he feels. For our games, we are in charge of the world. and for the movies, comics, and other forms of media, he no longer has any control.

True, but in the ever constant fan war that is these forums, about what is/isn't "approved" content for the franchise, having some things clarified will (theoretically), stop some arguments.  

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24 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

True, but in the ever constant fan war that is these forums, about what is/isn't "approved" content for the franchise, having some things clarified will (theoretically), stop some arguments.  

Plus, it never hurts to have at least some idea of what the original creator's intent was, even if it's ultimately not utilized in one's campaign.

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56 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, it never hurts to have at least some idea of what the original creator's intent was, even if it's ultimately not utilized in one's campaign.

Yeah, though personally it's not something that's ever really plagued me.  As personal entertainment, I'm fine with the spirit of the franchise, and what was obviously they were trying to convey with the material.  The execution of it, via things like editing, direction, writing, acting, etc, didn't work as well as intended I think, so it diluted and mutated some of what was being presented, but I'm capable of being objective about the product itself (the actual film), versus the nebulous idea in Lucas' head.    

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I didn't get the impression he was trying to tell anyone what to do with their games.

It's a retrospective about Phantom Menace,  not an old guy yelling at clouds.

 

Correct, but given how long you've been on these forums, you know as well as I do, how dogmatic the various camps about What Is True Star Wars, can be, and how they will cite published material to substantiate their claims.  And some of those points, as posted by the OP, are some of the more heated debates that I've seen over the years.  So having some more definitive answers from the creator, while 100% irrelevant to a gaming table, can at least maybe shut up some of the dumber, more volatile, and immortal debates that constantly pop back up on these forums, like a herpes flare up.

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3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

So having some more definitive answers from the creator, while 100% irrelevant to a gaming table, can at least maybe shut up some of the dumber, more volatile, and immortal debates that constantly pop back up on these forums, like a herpes flare up. 

That's not gonna happen. Nerds gonna nerd. 🙂

(and I'm not excluding myself here)

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2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's not gonna happen. Nerds gonna nerd. 🙂

(and I'm not excluding myself here)

I can dream.  At least perhaps it will help prevent the debates from devolving into the typical flame war that is common for such pointless debates.  Where it ends up being like 10 pages, and 8 of them are 2 people raging back and forth, the conversation having reached the point of "I think you're wrong!" "Well I think YOU"RE wrong!", with nothing really constructive or new being presented.   You know the kind of threads I'm talking about.  And yeah, it probably won't get rid of them entirely, but maybe, MAAAYBE, I can hope that they will prop up with less frequency.  :P 

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13 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I don't mind them. Usually the main thread questions have been already answered, so there's nothing getting drowned out. People can just not read these discussions.

And sometimes, it can get derailed right out of the gate, because of people more obsessed with proving they are right, than actually addressing the thread.  I know because I've had this happen at least twice.  Where the question I presented, got instantly buried in two people having a "Well Actually" debate, about something that had almost nothing to do with the actual question.  And while I've only had a handful of personal threads have that happen, given how rarely I actually make a thread, odds are pretty good that it's a common occurance.  :P  

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Posted (edited)

lol. Yeah George doesn't give a crap about the EU stuff. I used to really ignore all of the Sith stuff because as someone who grew up on the OT I felt they were just supposed to be the spiritual bad guys, that's it. The EU novelizations and later game content is really just a lot of fan fiction: no better and no worse. 

Edited by Archlyte

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9 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

True, but in the ever constant fan war that is these forums, about what is/isn't "approved" content for the franchise, having some things clarified will (theoretically), stop some arguments.  

For me quoting some paperback book from 1996 is not really gonna cut it as proof of something being a good idea. I sometimes stop at the point someone quotes the excelsior but only because I know they are brandishing it as their truth and aren't interested in thinking further on the subject beyond that. The answer was neatly filled in and the quality of the answer isn't that important. George I think one time referred to it as his sandbox and to me that means like @kaosoe said we make the rules. 

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1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

For me quoting some paperback book from 1996 is not really gonna cut it as proof of something being a good idea. I sometimes stop at the point someone quotes the excelsior but only because I know they are brandishing it as their truth and aren't interested in thinking further on the subject beyond that. The answer was neatly filled in and the quality of the answer isn't that important. George I think one time referred to it as his sandbox and to me that means like @kaosoe said we make the rules. 

Which I'm all for, but I do take issue when people assert traits to a group that are demonstrably wrong based on the films.  I personally don't hold much merit with the EU/Legacy stuff, and never really did.   But I also don't really care for the most part if people change things.  But when people say things like "George designed the Jedi to be beings who have purged their emotions!  They don't have things like love and fear, and guilt! " Etc etc, well that's just flat out wrong, as evidenced by the way the Jedi behave in the films.  And that is the very subject that has come up countless times, to the point of nausea.   Because you can try and reason with those people, about how that just doesn't make sense, from a biological standpoint, and that it isn't actually reflected in the way the Jedi behave, that they are basically talking about CONTROLLING your emotions, and not letting them guide your actions (Like a Sith would), because impulsive behavior tends to be destructive and negative in nature.   You can site studies about human psychology and mental/emotional development, and they will just respond with a dogmatic response, and make you ask why you wasted 30 minutes trying to write a thoughtful response.  

So yeah, having at least some "canon" as much as that matters, to point to, I personally find helpful.  But only in the context of the endless debates of the fans.  At a persons game table, I don't give a crap at all.  If they agree that Jedi = Magical Vulcans, fine, it's their table and has no bearing on my life.  

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On 5/26/2019 at 8:14 AM, KungFuFerret said:

 

OT:  I'm glad he finally said that the Jedi can love and feel emotions, so maybe the fan base will shut the **** up about the Jedi being Vulcans, and how they purge themselves of all emotions, and anyone that doesn't play them like this is "Doing It Wrong", despite NO evidence of any canon Jedi acting without the existence of emotions in their lives.

Well I think that what I don't like is how people cannot fathom that someone can actually develop a cognitive mindset through an aesthetic choice of lifestyle that allows them to have a different view of life. I personally do not live that way and have no reason to want to, but I have to acknowledge that such people existed in the real world and so it makes sense to me that an organization with actual metaphysical abilities might be able to achieve this as well. 

Having the Jedi have the ability to not be dictated to by their passions seems the perfect counterpoint to the Sith. Also it is the pursuit of these things that is most important not the result, so if some of them did not achieve that level of being able to defend against vice and passion (especially aliens who don't have human psychology), then it does not invalidate the attempt. 

Also the western way of life would see such an approach as negative but not some other cultures where such devotion to an ideal would be considered impressive. 

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Which I'm all for, but I do take issue when people assert traits to a group that are demonstrably wrong based on the films.  I personally don't hold much merit with the EU/Legacy stuff, and never really did.   But I also don't really care for the most part if people change things.  But when people say things like "George designed the Jedi to be beings who have purged their emotions!  They don't have things like love and fear, and guilt! " Etc etc, well that's just flat out wrong, as evidenced by the way the Jedi behave in the films.  And that is the very subject that has come up countless times, to the point of nausea.   Because you can try and reason with those people, about how that just doesn't make sense, from a biological standpoint, and that it isn't actually reflected in the way the Jedi behave, that they are basically talking about CONTROLLING your emotions, and not letting them guide your actions (Like a Sith would), because impulsive behavior tends to be destructive and negative in nature.   You can site studies about human psychology and mental/emotional development, and they will just respond with a dogmatic response, and make you ask why you wasted 30 minutes trying to write a thoughtful response.  

So yeah, having at least some "canon" as much as that matters, to point to, I personally find helpful.  But only in the context of the endless debates of the fans.  At a persons game table, I don't give a crap at all.  If they agree that Jedi = Magical Vulcans, fine, it's their table and has no bearing on my life.  

I think it is different to say they don't have them than it is to say they are not affected by them to the degree your average modern day western individual would be. I would say that the most profound thinking seems to always point to a search for meaning, and that doesn't always require that you experience the myriad extra emotions germane to our existence in some disciplines. 

In watching the prequels I got the impression that they were trying to make the Jedi more like monks or something and Anakin is not allowed to have a romance cause he has to love everyone equally via compassion. I felt that made the Jedi less relate-able. But I don't think it is outright garbage to have them pursuing the goal of being able to not fall prey to their passions.  

You can make decisions that are altruistic without being emotionally fueled. 

EDIT: I should also say that you are right that nothing shows them as an organization as magic vulcans. I agree that they should not be totally emotionless. 

Edited by Archlyte

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