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Blail Blerg

Is Barriss really really bad?

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dunno how much we can drop Bariss before we have to drop the Knight

And by then the Delta-B knight will probably kick the *** of any Arc pilot for the same amount of points

Could see JK 38, Bariss 41, Plo 49. Not making them good, just less bad.

104 is a lot better than JK at 39/42 I don't think that changes much at 38/42. The non-104 ARCs prob need to come down though, that pt jump is nuts.

This is all assuming FFG is motivated to achieve comprehensive balance, which is a poor assumption.
 

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dunno how much we can drop Bariss before we have to drop the Knight

And by then the Delta-B knight will probably kick the *** of any Arc pilot for the same amount of points

I stand by this for Barriss: at least 2 more than a JK, at least 2 less than Luminara and Saesee Tiin.  In current points for everything else, that'd be 41-42 for Barriss.  Any lower than 41 on Barriss seems like it'd need a drop to the JK, since at least 2 points for an initiative bump and a non-blank pilot ability seems mandatory.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I stand by this for Barriss: at least 2 more than a JK, at least 2 less than Luminara and Saesee Tiin.  In current points for everything else, that'd be 41-42 for Barriss.  Any lower than 41 on Barriss seems like it'd need a drop to the JK, since at least 2 points for an initiative bump and a non-blank pilot ability seems mandatory.

You only pay 1 for Tali, that's 2 Ini and an slightly better ability (since hers is pure gain instead of a new option to spend an overload resource)

If we think in 7B terms, you only pay 2 for Bastion, 1 Ini and a great ability. +2 for 7B Bariss (+1 base +1 7B) is objectively worse.

1 is probably the correct JK/Bariss price difference, it'll be +2 effectively with CLT or 7B, and even that's not very enticing. You only do it if you happen to be running I4s and want same Ini, or can't find a place to spend the point.

+2 is definitely not the correct price diff for Bariss/Lum, the force is prob worth 3-4 alone not to mention the objectively better ability (and these two have a multiplicative value)

Edited by prauxim
typos

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6 hours ago, prauxim said:

You only pay 1 for Tali, that's 2 Ini and an slightly better ability (since hers is pure gain instead of a new option to spend an overload resource)

If we think in 7B terms, you only pay 2 for Bastion, 1 Ini and a great ability. +2 for 7B Bariss (+1 base +1 7B) is objectively worse.

1 is probably the correct JK/Bariss price difference, it'll be +2 effectively with CLT or 7B, and even that's not very enticing. You only do it if you happen to be running I4s and want same Ini, or can't find a place to spend the point.

+2 is definitely not the correct price diff for Bariss/Lum, the force is prob worth 3-4 alone not to mention the objectively better ability (and these two have a multiplicative value)

RZ-2 A-Wings (Tallie and L'ulo in particular) have some of the most batty pricing in the entire game, and just makes any argument based on their prices look foolish.

For most ships, the step between an Init 3 Generic with a talent and a limited Init 4 with Talent and pilot ability is around 2-3 points.  It's frequently more, and seldom less than 2 points.

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:29 AM, Blail Blerg said:

yeah, but is that actually a good list, or a garbo list that's just fun? 

Why should one be worth more than the other?

Not everyone plays for alt arts and to make the cut.  Fun is a viable option.

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why should one be worth more than the other?

Not everyone plays for alt arts and to make the cut.  Fun is a viable option.

chill, no one said anything bout worth or cuts. A garbage list that's fun is still fun with fun as a viable option. Doesn't mean strong though.

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why should one be worth more than the other?

Not everyone plays for alt arts and to make the cut.  Fun is a viable option.

Because more people get to fly the fun stuff when it's also the good stuff.

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4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why should one be worth more than the other?

Not everyone plays for alt arts and to make the cut.  Fun is a viable option.

Most people that play a game and get their *** handed each time will stop playing that game.

If different options are from 95% power level to 105% and you chose the 95% cause it sounds more fun to you, you will still enjoy, even when facing an opponent that always picks  the 105% option.

Especially when you win with it from time to time. 

But Bariss isnt even close to 95%. Its more like 67%. 

Pretty close to getting your *** handed each game range.

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11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dunno how much we can drop Bariss before we have to drop the Knight

And by then the Delta-B knight will probably kick the *** of any Arc pilot for the same amount of points

I do think the Jedi Knight should also be dropped. Though I don't know the right numbers, I'm guessing something like 35-36 is more appropriate, putting, which still puts the Jedi Knight with 7B (a terrible costly choice btw) at 50-51, easily more expensive than the I2 Arc, which seems reasonable. Most of the named arcs likely need a minor reduction. 

This puts Barriss possible at 39-41 ish? Which I think would be usable, as she basically only gains +1Init  and an ability that generally triggers usefully only once every 2-3 games, generally, a moderately useless expected Mathwing value. Which means she pays 4points for +1Init, and I can tell you, that's already still bad. 

Comparing the Jedi Knight (no 7B) at 35-36 vs the Alpha Int 34, its also likely that the Alpha does need to go down a bit say to 32-33. Off the gut though, I feel like the Jedi Knight is only lightly better than the Alpha, namely due to durability, with a decrease in firepower, with mobility being about the same. 
No idea if Strikers also should go down to 33. Both of these as 6 ship swarms should very fun, relatively useful without being nutty strong. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

RZ-2 A-Wings (Tallie and L'ulo in particular) have some of the most batty pricing in the entire game, and just makes any argument based on their prices look foolish.

For most ships, the step between an Init 3 Generic with a talent and a limited Init 4 with Talent and pilot ability is around 2-3 points.  It's frequently more, and seldom less than 2 points.

I am suggesting 2 pts effectively, that's what it'd be with either config. 

I chose Tallie because she is one of few examples of a very marginal ability that sees play because you pay basically nothing for it, that's what we would need for Bariss.

Give me examples where you are paying 3 for 1 Ini(in the lower init range) + a poor ability and that ship is regularly chosen over the generic in competitive play.

Ten pays 3 but gets a great ability.

Cassian pays 4 but gets talent and a great ability.

+2 is correct for Bariss 7B over JK 7B.

Edited by prauxim

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I'd honestly like to see a 3 point drop for a 7B Jedi Knight (maybe 2 for pilot and 1 for config on them only), but going down to 50 would be interesting (with a drop of 4). Not sure 4 of them really worries me but it'd be cool to see and test out.

 

JK at 37 and Bariss at 39 seems fair, Bariss being significantly worse than the other named Jedi. 

 

Overall with the addition of Padme and a few point changes I'm excited by Republic list building going into July.

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12 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I am suggesting 2 pts effectively, that's what it'd be with either config. 

I chose Tallie because she is one of few examples of a very marginal ability that sees play because you pay basically nothing for it, that's what we would need for Bariss.

Give me examples where you are paying 3 for 1 Ini(in the lower init range) + a poor ability and that ship is regularly chosen over the generic in competitive play.

Ten pays 3 but gets a great ability.

Cassian pays 4 but gets talent and a great ability.

+2 is correct for Bariss 7B over JK 7B.

Horton Salm pays 4, Dutch Vander 6.  Jake Farrell pays 4.  Look at the price differential on *every* X-Wing pilot.

Ved Folso is 5 points over the Tempest.  Vynder 4.  Check out Defenders, who pay 6 at least, often without an Init bump.  Echo is 4.  Most of the Inferno TIEs are 4 over the Academy.  Rhymer is 6.  Strikers are 4-6.

Viktor Hel is 3 points for a marginal ability, Graz is 5 points for a pretty decent ability.  Dalan Oberous and Price Xizor are both 6.  N'Dru Suhlak is 4.  Seevor and Ahhav are 5.

You tried to pull a fast one last time with Bastian vs Blue Rookiee on the T-70.  The accurate comparison is Kara Kun vs Red Expert.  5 points, and Snap pays 6.

Scorch and Static are 4, Longshot 2.  Backdraft is 5.

A lot of these are solid abilities, Barriss isn't.  However, the steps are MUCH larger than 2 or 3 points.  An initiative step on a highly mobile ship like an Aethersprite is certainly worth more than 1 point, even before initiative-scaling configurations.  Things should be priced what they're worth, and the 3 to 4 step on an Aethersprite is worth more than you seem to claim. Barriss Offee is worse than other limited Jedi, to be sure.  She's also considerably better than a Jedi Knight.  So many folks onhere complain that ships don't pay enough for their initiative.  And you want to bring Barriss down to paying 1 point for hers... *sigh*

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2 minutes ago, FriendofYoda said:

I am hoping that CLT comes down a little, I like the idea of a more fragile/nimble Jedi but right now it's so hard to justify. What do we think would be fair?

For myself, I'd do three things: Decrease the base price of Aethersprites by 1, increase 7B by 1, and then set the price for CLT at Initiative (lower price, and slower scaling).  Results:

  • All 7B config pilots remain as they are (at least for this discussion... I think most folks would agree Barriss should go down, but I'd rather isolate CLT prices for the time being).  All non-config pilots go down by 1, making it a bit easier to run them without configs.
  • CLT JK does down to 41, but doesn't break the 5-per-list barrier.  Seems easier to suggest fair changes which don't adjust per-list brackets.  Bracket adjustments seem like a bigger decision.
  • Anakin goes down to 65 from 70.  So he'd be -13 rather than -8 for CLT over 7B under this points scheme.  Might be enough of a budget version to see play, and yet probably doesn't oppress the metagame.  Obi-Wan would be down to 57 from 61, a saving of 4 additional points.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Horton Salm pays 4, Dutch Vander 6.  Jake Farrell pays 4.  Look at the price differential on *every* X-Wing pilot.

Ved Folso is 5 points over the Tempest.  Vynder 4.  Check out Defenders, who pay 6 at least, often without an Init bump.  Echo is 4.  Most of the Inferno TIEs are 4 over the Academy.  Rhymer is 6.  Strikers are 4-6.

Viktor Hel is 3 points for a marginal ability, Graz is 5 points for a pretty decent ability.  Dalan Oberous and Price Xizor are both 6.  N'Dru Suhlak is 4.  Seevor and Ahhav are 5.

You tried to pull a fast one last time with Bastian vs Blue Rookiee on the T-70.  The accurate comparison is Kara Kun vs Red Expert.  5 points, and Snap pays 6.

Scorch and Static are 4, Longshot 2.  Backdraft is 5.

The vast majority of these aren't chosen over generics in optimized lists (or the ships are just bad overall) , so they don't support your claim. 

The few that are have exceptional abilities. Dutch and Jake are force multipliers for key rebel pieces, their abilities totally justify their value.

Jake/Vynder/Snap actually support my argument more, these guys all pay 4, and their abilities are pure gain and easily worth 2pts over Bariss's

Think about how bad the ability is, combined with a single force:

  • do all of the following:
    • have bulls-eye r2
      • there goes 50% of the potential use cases right there
    • choose during activation to not FTC
      • trading a full action for a shareable force is often a large and difficult to quantify opportunity cost
      • bad timing to have to make this choice if the prio target is moving after Bariss
    • choose to not use and/or not save your force for normal use on defense/attack
      • often correct but opportunity cost has a significant drain on net value
  • if you do all of this, you maybe can do a meaningful die result upgrade
    • useless if
      • all [blank/crit] results
      • all [blank/crit/hit results] if crit gained is going to be eaten by a shield or is final damage
      • foci if the attacker is focused and not defending later
  • You have to consider all of the applicable decisions at every opportunity to spend the force
    • high potential for sub-optimal decision reduces value further, esp in a tourney scenario

Its like they had a competition to design the lowest non-zero value possible and this was the winner. If this was a force upgrade it'd be worth 1 pt only on ships that didn't have FTC. In general I agree that generics need a little boost, but Bariss's advantage over a generic is so minuscule he essentially is a generic.

I honestly think the actual value is closer to 0 than 1. This is the type of value people pay 1 for with the reasoning "Well, I couldn't spend it on anything else". 

 

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

An initiative step on a highly mobile ship like an Aethersprite is certainly worth more than 1 point, even before initiative-scaling configurations

The standard cost for 3 to 4 + talent slot is 1pt on cheap ships and 2pts in almost all other examples, even those with built-in high ini synergy (repo/TL/rotate). And Bariss doesn't get a slot. His horrible ability seems about the same value as a slot (on those ships) to me. 

Edited by prauxim

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, Blail Blerg said:

At least, on paper, it looks horrifying. 

I disagree. 43 points for a 2/3/3/1 ship with 2 force, that ship ability, and that set of actions at Initiative 4 is pretty good. Luminara is not horrifying, she is just not as good as the other jedi pilots for the cost. 

The only truly horrifying ship is the JM5K because no points reduction will actually fix what is wrong with the ship.

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16 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

The only truly horrifying ship is the JM5K because no points reduction will actually fix what is wrong with the ship.

I’m not sure I agree. I recently flew Manaroo with IG-88D on board, and found her to be pretty useful as a buffer/blocker/pain-in-the-rump. What I think might be great is dropping the price a little and then adding either a gunner or a second crew slot, because you’d definitely spend points on filling that. But then the JM5K would get to bring a bit more capability, and would be kept from becoming OP by the wonky dial.

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4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For myself, I'd do three things: Decrease the base price of Aethersprites by 1, increase 7B by 1, and then set the price for CLT at Initiative (lower price, and slower scaling).  Results:

  • All 7B config pilots remain as they are (at least for this discussion... I think most folks would agree Barriss should go down, but I'd rather isolate CLT prices for the time being).  All non-config pilots go down by 1, making it a bit easier to run them without configs.
  • CLT JK does down to 41, but doesn't break the 5-per-list barrier.  Seems easier to suggest fair changes which don't adjust per-list brackets.  Bracket adjustments seem like a bigger decision.
  • Anakin goes down to 65 from 70.  So he'd be -13 rather than -8 for CLT over 7B under this points scheme.  Might be enough of a budget version to see play, and yet probably doesn't oppress the metagame.  Obi-Wan would be down to 57 from 61, a saving of 4 additional points.

 

Overall agreed, Bariss not being specifically addressed isn't a huge deal (despite the book report I wrote on him above lol)

But not sure about CLT == Ini. -2 total on JK CLT is prob fine but -5 on Anakin CLT seems a bit like over-correction. Not sure what you'd do differently though.

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I tried Barriss. TLDR: Yes. 

On 5/24/2019 at 1:53 AM, Pink_Viking said:

Yes.

/thread

----

This list, which really might not be the best list, but its really hard to find another list that isn't just cruising hard. (I mean, you could put Anakin in there, and a 104th, but then you're prob gonna want Mace as the 2nd ace anyway).  I really want to recommend Barriss down to 38, as even the 4 points for R2 likely wouldn't help that much. (and Jedi Knight down to 35)

Barriss Offee (43)
Delta-7B (16)

Ahsoka Tano (47)
R2 Astromech (4)
Delta-7B (15)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

vs

Starkiller Base Pilot (56)
Biohexacrypt Codes (1)
Electronic Baffle (2)

“Quickdraw” (45)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Shield Upgrade (6)

Kylo Ren (76)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

This FO list is pretty good imo. As a non-bidding list, with QD as a joust-y ace, with Kylo actually being the really annoying end-gamer, with the Skb_Pilot as a huge target, this list has everything classically you need in a list. Its still most worried about Init6 aces, but if you fly well, you can do it. 

 

---

Back to the Republic: I'm going to try a Jedi Knight with R2 instead in this list, but honestly, this list is just for fun. And I bet Mace is better than Ahsoka, and Barriss is lmao. She really might be okay with a 5 point reduction as a pocket ace with R2. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Called it Bariss 1pt over JK. Bet he still don't see much play, except maaaybe if 4x I4 CLT becomes a thing, which is unlikely given that Obi can fit now

Bariss is now officially the ‘I had a Jedi Knight, but my list has two extra points and I don’t need a bid’ ship or the ‘I need to shave 3-5 points to fit X’ ship.

Which is acceptable.

I think Battle Meditation Bariss May now fit in my ‘Flying V’ list now… (two generic Arcs, two generic concussion torrents)

Edited by millertime059

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Bariss is now officially the ‘I had a Jedi Knight, but my list has two extra points and I don’t need a bid’ ship or the ‘I need to shave 3-5 points to fit X’ ship.

Which is acceptable.

I think Battle Meditation Bariss May now fit in my ‘Flying V’ list now… (two generic Arcs, two generic concussion torrents)

Right, but there a bit of an assumption there is that JK would be a decent choice to begin with. The 2+ force all got cheaper by as much or more than JK, meaning the proposition for 1 force overall got worse.

JK/CLT did hit 40, maybe 5x is something? Seems worse than RZ2s though

So far Obi/Mace/Lum/Sae all CLT/R4 may be our best hope for all delta at the moment. Also need to experiment with Padme

Edited by prauxim

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

well, now there's a four point difference between her and Lumy with CLTs

...eh still not enough 

Yeah. I'd put the value of the force point at 5-6 and the ability at 1-2 conservatively

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Hahahahahaha. Thanks FFG. 

 

Though, in totality, its kind of a loss actually, with r2 going up to 6. and Delta 7b going up in cost too. 

 

But my first estimate was right on the money, -4. Though, honestly after trying her, I think -5 is more appropriate. (And further reduction to Jedi Knight)

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