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It seems like you're missing the point. The idea is that each deck is different and has different strengths and weaknesses. It all comes down to knowing those strengths and weaknesses and how to best utilize this. I'll admit some decks are better than others, but that's not a big enough gap that clever gameplay can't overcome it. Also, the majority of decks are good. I find it to be more rare to find a really bad deck then a really good deck. I've even won games with my worst decks playing against some of my friends best, while his best have beaten my best. A lot of the game comes down to skill and knowing how to play the game well and how to pilot your deck well.

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:51 PM, Nellac said:

 A lot of the game comes down to skill and knowing how to play the game well and how to pilot your deck well.

I think he understands better than you.

A lot more goes to the guy that spent a lot more money than you. 

I love the idea of the game, but hate the implementation, the app promised so much but has fallen so short. 

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If you don't like the game, go somewhere else. I don't get why you are here complaining if you hate the game. If it's so bad go play magic or yugioh or something. Here's the thing. Yes some decks seem better than others. This is a fact. This is why I definitely have some preferred decks. The thing is that every deck has a weakness. Some are very susceptible to board clears. Others can be easily beaten if you swamp them with a large board. Part of this game is understanding both your deck and your opponents deck well enough to find those chinks in their armor and utilize them

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On 5/31/2019 at 3:57 AM, Nellac said:

If you don't like the game, go somewhere else. I don't get why you are here complaining if you hate the game. If it's so bad go play magic or yugioh or something. Here's the thing. Yes some decks seem better than others. This is a fact. This is why I definitely have some preferred decks. The thing is that every deck has a weakness. Some are very susceptible to board clears. Others can be easily beaten if you swamp them with a large board. Part of this game is understanding both your deck and your opponents deck well enough to find those chinks in their armor and utilize them

I like the game and will continue to enjoy it on a casual level.

I cannot, compete with the "buy to win" guys that are buying upwards of 600 decks, as such, I dislike the systems that FFG has employed to limit the "buy to win" nature of the game.

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10 hours ago, Amanal said:

I like the game and will continue to enjoy it on a casual level.

I cannot, compete with the "buy to win" guys that are buying upwards of 600 decks, as such, I dislike the systems that FFG has employed to limit the "buy to win" nature of the game.

What do you think would solve that problem?  Limit how many someone can purchase?  Is there a game in the world that doesn't have this problem?

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21 hours ago, Amanal said:

I like the game and will continue to enjoy it on a casual level.

I cannot, compete with the "buy to win" guys that are buying upwards of 600 decks, as such, I dislike the systems that FFG has employed to limit the "buy to win" nature of the game.

I wasn't even aware there were systems employed. There is really no way to prevent this "problem." As long as everyone that is playing the game is enjoying it at whatever level they are engaging in it, I think it's fine. 

I do think there is a deck match-up factor in how good a deck can do (IE Decks with aember control do better against decks that can't clear the board, etc.) but that's just the way it goes. So yes people who buy more decks may seem to be at an advantage but when it comes down to game time if your deck type is a counter to the one they bring that won't matter.

That's the fun of the game, you don't know until you play. That's why a back and forth slogfest is so much fun win or lose, and when you know your deck is at a disadvantage but still pull of the win it's a great feeling.

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9 hours ago, dpuck1998 said:

What do you think would solve that problem?

The idea of this game is to learn a deck or a few decks and play it as well as you can. Now, it may take 20-30 decks to find a few you are happy with and will play a small group of those decks. So at least on a basic level, the question here is how do you avoid having 2 players buy everything rather than 20+ players buy 20-30 decks and create a healthy growing community? In a simple answer, get the app working properly and apply chains far more aggressively, both for casual players and tournament players.

I would add that if the app is tracking games then FFG gets real time metrics on their game. How many people are playing, the cards they are playing. The decks and cards that are doing well, the players that are doing well. This can help with the direction and speed of which they react with errata, as well as assist with game design as they see what works and what doesn't.

For the long term success this game relies on the technology to create all these decks at the front end and at the back end the players have to get the technology to ensure the game remains fun.

9 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

So yes people who buy more decks may seem to be at an advantage but when it comes down to game time if your deck type is a counter to the one they bring that won't matter.

Why? This game has no meta, I am literally playing my random deck against your random deck.

Sure, decks will contain elements of control, amber rush, control and such, so we can conveniently identify the basic strategy of the deck. However, many cards do two things at the same time, creatures that steal amber, and thus cover both control and creature. So as you buy more decks you will be able to find more of these cards that do double duty. So what then happens when my control, creature, amber rush, board wipe, discard deck plays your creature deck?

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Aren't you kind of proving my point? There are no perfect decks but there are decks that are more efficient and effective than others. The more you play a deck the better a handle you have on what it does and doesn't do well. You'll learn where it is consistent and what to watch out for as you see how it matches up against other decks.

Yes it is random deck versus random deck, but there is still a match-up factor. I know my very first deck the best, but I know if I encounter a deck that steals aember and doesn't need/want creatures on the board there is simply not much I am going to be able to do to beat it. Should my opponent be punished because that's their 307th deck versus my 1st? Not at all.

In fact I would argue in that situation I am going to have an advantage because I know my deck better. It may be a bad match-up but knowing what my deck can do is going to make a difference, even versus someone who is good at the game but learning a new deck. Sure it's an uphill battle but I think it is possible.

All that to say you realize I agree with you right? I think players who buy more decks are going to have better chances at getting better decks, and if they take the time to learn those better decks they will be very tough to beat. This is what will separate the best players from the ones following the meta at the high level tournaments. As silly as it sounds there absolutely is a random deck meta, or at least there was before LA and B&S got errata'd. People were buying decks looking for LA OHKO decks, or Shadows/Dis/Whatever decks that had Bait & Switch in them. You didn't go to a tournament without Shadows if you wanted a chance at placing. Yes me of all people just said it!

At the same time though, if you have your one deck that you've been using since CoTA launch and you know it backwards and forwards I think you'll have an advantage even against an experienced player who is not experienced with the deck they have. I know I play better when I go back to my first deck versus opening a new AoA deck. The thing you perceive as a problem (people overbuying) I perceive as a weakness. People are buying too many decks at once, not playing them enough and moving on in search of what they think are the "good" decks based on what is finishing well at Vault Tours, or they are just trying to find the flavors of the week to put on EBay and make a quick buck. Either way these players are not winning as many games as you might think they are with the numerical advantage in owning decks.

FFG is not going to penalize it, they're making money, but I think the developers are watching the data come in and they are making adjustments as they think are needed. I think it's very clear what direction they are sending the game in as they make new rulings and release new sets. 

But bottom line, does any of this really matter if you still enjoy playing the game at the level you are engaging with it? I don't think so but I'm too lazy to hit ctrl+A and delete. Fun discussion.

(Side Note: Anyone else read "LA" in a Letterkenney accent every time they see it? Just me? Nevermind...)

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

At the same time though, if you have your one deck that you've been using since CoTA launch and you know it backwards and forwards I think you'll have an advantage even against an experienced player who is not experienced with the deck they have. I know I play better when I go back to my first deck versus opening a new AoA deck. The thing you perceive as a problem (people overbuying) I perceive as a weakness. People are buying too many decks at once, not playing them enough and moving on in search of what they think are the "good" decks based on what is finishing well at Vault Tours, or they are just trying to find the flavors of the week to put on EBay and make a quick buck. Either way these players are not winning as many games as you might think they are with the numerical advantage in owning decks.

Amen to that. I got a deck the other day that at first glance I just dismissed, but as I started playing it on the crucible (I wanted to test it and decide whether to leave it wrapped or not) I found it not only winning, but even when I loss it was in very close games. It is a very weird, very "janky" deck that is constantly trying to dig down for an answer to whatever the opponent is doing. (IIRC, at one point I made an opponent playing a double timetraveler deck rage quit)

One of the current "top decks" in the area doesn't have any shadows, but is just sheer aember burn (shatter storm, effervescence principle, etc). I faced it one archon tournament when I brought my horseman deck. To give you an idea how the game can go, we played each other - TWICE. (only 4 people showed up for the game that day) While I lost the first game, I ended up winning the 2nd game. Because by then I knew how his deck worked and piloted mine much more aggressively.

There is a lot of player skill in the game and even if you buy the best deck you can, you're going to get stomped by someone that knows well what their deck wants to do. Sometimes I go back and replay one of my decks I've dismissed as useless only to figure out a killer combo I had overlooked the first time.

Edited by Simplegarak

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17 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Aren't you kind of proving my point? There are no perfect decks but there are decks that are more efficient and effective than others. The more you play a deck the better a handle you have on what it does and doesn't do well.

If there are decks that are more efficient and effective then what decides the game if all else is equal?

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Well I feel the answer is obvious, all else being equal the deciding factor is not skill, luck, play of cards or anything but the deck.

So the game by the nature of the deck being random goes to the player with the luck to draw the better deck. Then the next guy has to do a search for yet a better deck and so on.

The sad part of it all is these two guys have no one to play against locally as they have scared everyone away. So sooner or later they will ask themselves why are we spending all this money and time on a game we aren't playing all that much.

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I will respectfully agree to disagree. Unique decks result in unique games, but being able to accurately read the board state and make the right choices based on what you have available is paramount to winning a game. This is further enhanced for the player more knowledgeable about what their deck can do, what has been played, what could be coming up, etc. These factors may not completely mitigate the deck factor (which is luck if we're honest) but the impact can be powerful. I mean it's how I took a weaker deck to a chainbound tourney and beat multiple high-powered decks (At the time I was still following SAS, and it said my deck was a 70 but I stomped on mid 90's to win the day)

Furthermore, the same deck versus the same deck isn't even necessarily going to play out the same way. Each game is unique and again it is going to go down to player skill and deck knowledge. In fact as you learn what your opponent's deck can do you will change what you are doing to adapt if you think you can. This is an aspect of the game that I think many (myself included) are not exploring enough.

The same person with the same deck has not kept winning at the chainbound events run by my FLGS. It's not even the same person with a different deck (unlike some stores in my state lol). I know for a fact that some of the players at my store could run a TV show called "Keyforge Pickers" yet they are not the ones winning. It is knowing what your deck can do and adapting to the board state in the heat of the moment. 

At least that's been my experience. It is very possible yours has been different, and maybe that's why we won't see eye to eye on this. I understand and respect that. 

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12 hours ago, Amanal said:

If there are decks that are more efficient and effective then what decides the game if all else is equal?

The question is nonsensical since "efficient" and "effective" is very dependent on board state (unless you're playing untamed). For another example, in one game I had a decent sized brobnar board out and my opponent played a foggify on me. So suddenly all my brobnar "ready & fight" cards (of which I had a few) became "ready & reap" cards that gave me a massive aember turn. So how do you rate the efficiency of "Follow the Leader" for an example?

There is still also a bit of luck in the deck being shuffled. If you get stealing or forging cards early in the game before you or your opponent have generated aember, it won't do you much good.

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15 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I know for a fact that some of the players at my store could run a TV show called "Keyforge Pickers" yet they are not the ones winning.

Why would you expect that they win? They are buying a deck that some one else doesn't want, in most situations the decks likely to win are the ones that the person keeps and those you don't see on eBay. If anyone really thought that Horsemen Decks were "good" don't you think we would see fewer on sale on eBay than we do?

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One thing I think people aren't taking in to account is that 3-4 years from now, I imagine their algorithm will be much better at creating a variety of interesting yet balanced decks. This game is about a slow-burn into being something bigger, later. Their math will continue to improve because they control how the game works far more since there is no deckbuilding aspect.
 

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On 6/5/2019 at 11:19 PM, Amanal said:

Why would you expect that they win? They are buying a deck that some one else doesn't want, in most situations the decks likely to win are the ones that the person keeps and those you don't see on eBay. If anyone really thought that Horsemen Decks were "good" don't you think we would see fewer on sale on eBay than we do?

Ok ok, you got me there. "Keyforge Pickers" was a poor choice. I meant that they are the ones that concern you; buying up every deck they can. When not putting them up on Ebay as a side hustle they are bringing their best ones that they haven't sold yet to the non-sealed events. The problem? They don't know their decks. They are going by SAS. Deck is a 95? Strap it along for a tourney!

They don't know the decks. They aren't winning. 

We did a sealed small scale tourney at my FLGS tonight. First round, I went 0-2 to lose the round. While we waited for the next round, my round 1 opponent and I got in 2 more (casual) games. To my surprise I won both those games. The deck started clicking with me. I went 2-1 in round 2 to win and faced my round 1 opponent in round 3 (long story). I beat him 2-1 to tie him for first and make the final standing go to strength of schedule. Not to mention I thought his deck had several cards that were good counters to the things my deck was trying to do.

Now this was exactly random deck vs random deck. Player skill and decision making made all the difference. The way I played the deck in game #10 was way different than how I played  the deck in game #1.

So to somewhat bring it back on topic with the OP, while there is a factor of luck in what you get, player skill and deck knowledge absolutely matter and can make a huge difference in the game.

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