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Cloaker

Hate Costed By Force Rating?

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Hot take: Not all updates need to be as effective (or even good) on all ships. Just like it’s fine that shield upgrade is a terrible upgrade on an academy pilot, Hate could just be priced to be balanced in it’s most effective use. Not all cards need variable points. 

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40 minutes ago, Yearfire said:

Hot take: Not all updates need to be as effective (or even good) on all ships. Just like it’s fine that shield upgrade is a terrible upgrade on an academy pilot, Hate could just be priced to be balanced in it’s most effective use. Not all cards need variable points. 

The big issue with that is that it should be 5 points for its most effective use (i.e. Maul and Dooku), but that then entirely removes it from consideration for essentially everyone else apart from Hatin Kanan and maybe Asajj.  And there aren't any other good Force upgrades.

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

The big issue with that is that it should be 5 points for its most effective use (i.e. Maul and Dooku), but that then entirely removes it from consideration for essentially everyone else apart from Hatin Kanan and maybe Asajj.  And there aren't any other good Force upgrades.

I don’t really think that is a problem with Hate. Sense has it’s uses and FFG can introduce more force upgrades or decrease the points on the other upgrades. 

Finding out what the bad choices are is part of list building. I’ve played both Kylo and Vader, and I’m fine with Hate being bad on both. 

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On 5/23/2019 at 6:45 PM, Cloaker said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned before... But I figure if they can make Stealth Device or hull / shield upgrades escalate by Agility, costing Hate to Force might be better than by initiative.

 

2/4/6/8/10 cost points for Force 1/2/3/4/5 (taking into account crew.)

 

Definitely needs an adjustment. Better for the game to get it in line with other force powers as viable options. Just thinking aloud. Cheers everyone, thanks for reading. 

Well, per the rulebook, scaling upgrades vary in price only by printed stats, not after adjustments.  That's why Hull and Shield Upgrades are 7/8 points on a Delta 7B configured Aethersprite.  Whether or not that's ideal, that's the rules as they stand now.

//

I really go back and forth on scaling (2/4/6 or 1/3/5 per base force charge), and just increasing the flat cost of Hate to like 5 points.  I think it's true that lower-force ships will get back fewer points over the course of a game.  It's also true that lower hull/shield ships will get back fewer points, so maybe hit points should be the scaling factor.  Or Agility should be used as a proxy for hit point count.  Or maybe there's a three-dimensional matrix of all three: hit points and agility and force charges.  I'm just not sure the mess is worth it over a flat increase.

But on all ships, Hate trivializes the resource management aspects of the Force in a way which is kind of unpleasant to me.  For example, a 1-or-2-point Hate is pretty much stapled to any 1-force Dark Side pilots out there, and then they can just Spend! Spend! Spend! their force charges without thinking about it.  I think that'd be bad, so I don't think Hate needs to get any cheaper for anyone.

A flat increase in cost fixes it on the worse offenders (Maul and Dooku, who "feel" excessive even if they don't "win games" that much), and even if it's a bit of a nerf on Kylo and Seventh Sister, I don't mind that too much.

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almost all force upgrades suck....

their abilities are not that great, or they cost too much, or they have the cost of a very valuable force token.

While I love hate on Dooku and maul, there really is no other option its a good upgrade with 0 competition for its slot... it's it overpowered? no, I don't think so at least I am not seeing hate ships dominate any local tournaments.

Hate also has a massive drawback in that it is controlled by your opponent to some extent, if you are running force hungry setups and your opponent just ignores that ship and kills the rest of your list first hates value goes way down. 

the other thing to consider is hate is helping both maul and dooku be competitive ships, if they had to pay a bunch more would you just push them out? like I said I don't see them dominating any tournaments why is there a problem?

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20 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

A flat increase in cost fixes it on the worse offenders (Maul and Dooku, who "feel" excessive even if they don't "win games" that much), and even if it's a bit of a nerf on Kylo and Seventh Sister, I don't mind that too much.

This has to be the stupidest reason to nerf something... due to it "feel"ing excessive while ignoring any results.

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48 minutes ago, Icelom said:

This has to be the stupidest reason to nerf something... due to it "feel"ing excessive while ignoring any results.

I think experiences count for at least a little something.  I'm by no means the only person to have the impression that hate is too strong on Sith Infiltrators.  It really feels like it does some dumb ****.  I was flying Dooku the other day against an Ion, and I was chucking off Ion tokens left and right.  And yet, winrate at large events is... only OK... not shattering the metagame.

It's hard to get my head around it.  Flying Sith kinda gives the impression of flying stupid OP bull, but then the Infiltrators die deceptively fast, and the games which kinda seemed like they were stomps can easily turn close.

//

Most force upgrades being niche doesn't mean Hate is correct at it's current price, however.  It means Hate is out of alignment with the power-level of Force Talents in general.  Seeing as the Force without Force Talents is so strong, I think it makes more sense to bring Hate into balance with the rest of the Force Talents, rather than massive buffs to the rest of them.  The fact that they're mostly niche cards which can work out pretty well in the right circumstances is good design, IMHO.

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6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

 

It's hard to get my head around it.  Flying Sith kinda gives the impression of flying stupid OP bull, but then the Infiltrators die deceptively fast, and the games which kinda seemed like they were stomps can easily turn close.

//

Most force upgrades being niche doesn't mean Hate is correct at it's current price, however.  It means Hate is out of alignment with the power-level of Force Talents in general.  Seeing as the Force without Force Talents is so strong, I think it makes more sense to bring Hate into balance with the rest of the Force Talents, rather than massive buffs to the rest of them.  The fact that they're mostly niche cards which can work out pretty well in the right circumstances is good design, IMHO.

Having ships feeling "stupid OP Bull" while loosing with them "is good design, IMHO"

No one wants to lose feeling like everything they had was crap... everyone wants to feel powerful and awesome all the time.

We may just have to disagree.

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3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Having ships feeling "stupid OP Bull" while loosing with them "is good design, IMHO"

No one wants to lose feeling like everything they had was crap... everyone wants to feel powerful and awesome all the time.

We may just have to disagree.

I guess my ideal is to lose while feeling that my ships were balanced, but I made bad choices or got bad dice.  Likewise, to win because of good choices or good dice at the right time.  I don't really enjoy "powerful" stuff that still loses, I think that feels worse than losing with trash.

I'll agree to disagree.  I wish I could express my issues about Sith Infiltrators more clearly, not necessarily to convince you of my side, but just in order to articulate it better.

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On 5/24/2019 at 12:37 PM, Quack Shot said:

On ships like Maul and Dooku, Hate is Expertise, just under a different name. The power of Hate goes up the more hit points you have. You were going to take that damage anyways because that’s what your ship was designed to do, now you just gain free focus. 

Yeah......... and you pay more for that arc locked ship. So, your point?

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46 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah......... and you pay more for that arc locked ship. So, your point?

You’re paying for your stats and slots. Just like any ship in the game, yet we still have variable upgrades, so what’s your point? You’re not overpaying. If you were overpaying I could see your point because then the cost of Hate would be covered. 

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On 5/28/2019 at 9:34 AM, Quack Shot said:

You’re paying for your stats and slots. Just like any ship in the game, yet we still have variable upgrades, so what’s your point? You’re not overpaying. If you were overpaying I could see your point because then the cost of Hate would be covered. 

My point is, on that ship with that chassis, Hate ain't hateful. As a matter of fact, it might be the only mod that allows that ship to ever see tourney mats. So, your post was in the AM? hummmmmmm..... I thought that a comment a pint or three in, haha.

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