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Cloaker

Hate Costed By Force Rating?

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Not sure if this has been mentioned before... But I figure if they can make Stealth Device or hull / shield upgrades escalate by Agility, costing Hate to Force might be better than by initiative.

 

2/4/6/8/10 cost points for Force 1/2/3/4/5 (taking into account crew.)

 

Definitely needs an adjustment. Better for the game to get it in line with other force powers as viable options. Just thinking aloud. Cheers everyone, thanks for reading. 

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For Kylo and Vader, Hate is good, but a decision. They have other things they'd like to spend the points on, and often that includes leaving the slot empty as well. 

Asajj isn't hyperspace and nobody plays Scum and she's probably still overpriced so who knows. It's probably good.

For Maul and Dooku, Hate is stapled on, because they have so much HP, so low agility, force hungry abilities, and such large force pools - it's not any one, it's all four things at once that make it exceptional. And for all that, it's like... two points undercosted? Maybe one? Probably not three?

So if you really wanted to, you could make Hate cost 5/4/3, for 1/2/3 agility ships, as a proxy for those things.

Hate is good because it both has a good effect and doesn't cost your force, which isn't true of the other options other than Sense. But it's allowed to be that way because it only works when you're taking damage, which limits it for low HP ships and is inherently limited how much defense it can stack on low agility ships. 

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I don’t like it. I don’t think there is as much of a swing for Force recharge versus (most of) the other adjustable cards and their logarithmic value increase as other stats are considered. Plus, with Hate, you have to absorb a negative event to trigger. Shield Upgrade, for example, is there every time. 

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I would tend to agree that Hate needs some kind of scaled cost. The idea I've seen suggested previously was to tie it to base size as a proxy for damage threshold (Hull+Shield) since it would be a bit overly complex to scale it by hit points directly. 

The ships that get the most mileage out of Hate are the ones that can gain the most Force by talking all that damage in. Although Force points are a soft cap on how much you can get back in a single defense, I think damage threshold is more relevant because that is ultimately what limits how much Force you can get back over the course of a game.

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1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

, costing Hate to Force might be better than by initiative.

 

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

The idea I've seen suggested previously was to tie it to base size

 

23 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Should be based on your agility.

I think it should be all 3.  It could be the first card with 27 values.

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51 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Part of the problem is that it's also the only really worthwhile Force Power at the moment. Supernatural Reflexes was nerfed out of the game, and everything else is so niche or situational that you're better off not spending the points.

With the exception of Sense I broadly agree. SNR can have a place, but it is only in very specific situations/ builds.

Sense can be very useful though, if your list is capable of taking advantage of the knowledge.

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35 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

With the exception of Sense I broadly agree. SNR can have a place, but it is only in very specific situations/ builds.

In the same vein of specific builds, Instinctive Aim Luke with protons is pretty potent.

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Hate should be costed by how hateful the character flying the ship is. The more hateful and angry pilot, the more Hate will cost them to use.

Count Dooku? Doesn't seem all that hateful. Keep it at 3.

Maul and Vader? Super hateful. It's kinda their thing. We'll up the point cost to 7 for them.

Non-named Inquisitors? Ambiguous hate-levels. They can pay 4 points for Hate.

😁

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Agility makes the most sense. This would fix the up and coming Dual Infiltrators that more people will start using. Hoping the designers see this coming before the points change happens, unlike Quad Phantoms where it made a splash the weekend before and they were too light on the fix.  

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16 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned before... But I figure if they can make Stealth Device or hull / shield upgrades escalate by Agility, costing Hate to Force might be better than by initiative.

 

2/4/6/8/10 cost points for Force 1/2/3/4/5 (taking into account crew.)

 

Definitely needs an adjustment. Better for the game to get it in line with other force powers as viable options. Just thinking aloud. Cheers everyone, thanks for reading. 

Hate has an upside and it has a downside. If the user flys well enough it will never trigger. If their opponent flies well enough it wont trigger much either. If you shoot piecemeal at a Hate user, it might trigger a lot. 

There is nothing wrong with Hate. It's annoying but so is Leia, regenning astro mechs and a few other upgrades. 

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38 minutes ago, Quack Shot said:

Agility makes the most sense. This would fix the up and coming Dual Infiltrators that more people will start using. Hoping the designers see this coming before the points change happens, unlike Quad Phantoms where it made a splash the weekend before and they were too light on the fix.  

I have tried to use various versions of double Infiltrators and it is an okay list at best. If your opponent is unaware of all its tricks it is pretty powerful but once someone understands how to play against it the list loses much of its power.

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Posted (edited)

The sky of Hate isn't falling. This is simply the raw nerves of someone who thinks it assisted his opponent far more than it was worth (on arc locked ships of all things). Simple tears on the mat so to speak. Hate is actually cool and nicely costed IMO. I don't even fly Separatists, only Kylo a few times (with Supernatural) and Vader with Sense, so no dog here. Remember oh salty ones, one must take damage to use it and that is the name of the game for the opponent, deal damage. Maul is pretty good statistically speaking, but shouldn't he be? He's not burning the world's lists while being under-costed like Lea, Braylen, Lulo, Cassian, etc... 

I just don't see this whine rag at all. 

...now where's my tea?

Edited by clanofwolves

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37 minutes ago, Caduceus01 said:

I have tried to use various versions of double Infiltrators and it is an okay list at best. If your opponent is unaware of all its tricks it is pretty powerful but once someone understands how to play against it the list loses much of its power.

I’ve played against it versus capable opponents who have practice with it and the list is S Tier. When the players don’t use all of its upgrades or miss triggers is when the list isn’t that good. 2 Double Infiltrators were taken to our 40 person CAC, they only lost 1 game, it was the mirror match.  Duncan Howard took it to his trial, went undefeated. List also made cut at a System Open versus Extended Meta. The list is just popping up and people are just starting to learn to play with it. 

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34 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

The sky of Hate isn't falling. This is simply the raw nerves of someone who thinks it assisted his opponent far more than it was worth (on arc locked ships of all things). Simple tears on the mat so to speak. Hate is actually cool and nicely costed IMO. I don't even fly Separatists, only Kylo a few times (with Supernatural) and Vader with Sense, so no dog here. Remember oh salty ones, one must take damage to use it and that is the name of the game for the opponent, deal damage. Maul is pretty good statistically speaking, but shouldn't he be? He's not burning the world's lists while being under-costed like Lea, Braylen, Lulo, Cassian, etc... 

I just don't see this whine rag at all. 

...now where's my tea?

On ships like Maul and Dooku, Hate is Expertise, just under a different name. The power of Hate goes up the more hit points you have. You were going to take that damage anyways because that’s what your ship was designed to do, now you just gain free focus. 

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54 minutes ago, Quack Shot said:

I’ve played against it versus capable opponents who have practice with it and the list is S Tier. When the players don’t use all of its upgrades or miss triggers is when the list isn’t that good. 2 Double Infiltrators were taken to our 40 person CAC, they only lost 1 game, it was the mirror match.  Duncan Howard took it to his trial, went undefeated. List also made cut at a System Open versus Extended Meta. The list is just popping up and people are just starting to learn to play with it. 

Cool it won two tournaments and made one cut. It’s a decent list and currently the only viable thing that CIS has going. Just because something won a tournament doesn’t mean it is OP and needs adjusting. 

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2 hours ago, Quack Shot said:

On ships like Maul and Dooku, Hate is Expertise, just under a different name. The power of Hate goes up the more hit points you have. You were going to take that damage anyways because that’s what your ship was designed to do, now you just gain free focus. 

Yeah, Hate is too cheap on the named Scimitars, but not by *much*.  5 points would be right, I think - they're strong, but they still get burned down in a snap if you focus fire on them, and they're largely fairly predictable.

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Either agility or base-size scaling would work well. I could see it cheaper on the /v1 and /x1 and more expensive on the Scimitar and Ghost (by a significant margin).

Agility is probably better because something like the Y-Wing shouldn't get it as cheap as the /v1 should (supposing Anakin ever got access to the dark side or an analogous ship came up for CIS/FO).

Scaling based on force power isn't a good idea because that would mean it would cost the same on Kanan (with Maul) as it would on the Grand Inquisitor, which is a pretty crazy suggestion.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Caduceus01 said:

Cool it won two tournaments and made one cut. It’s a decent list and currently the only viable thing that CIS has going. Just because something won a tournament doesn’t mean it is OP and needs adjusting. 

I’m not saying it’s won a tournament so nerf it. You said it was an okay list at best, yet when the list has been taken by people who actually understand it it has won. 

 

The list has elements of 1.0. Double modded torps, double taps, Expertise, infinite Rebel Captive, and combowing to the extreme. All of this is powered through hate. Hate’s “cost” is through taking damage. However, when your ship is designed to take damage there isn’t a true cost. Which is why the card should be priced based on agility. 

Edited by Quack Shot

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