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InfinityIncarnate

Grey Jedi / Grey Force User Rules - What do you think?

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3 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

if you really want to talk about the Force Die you should try counting the total number of dark and light pips you will find that interestingly enough while the dark occupies more spots on the die the number of pips on the die that are dark and the number that are light are actually exactly the same with 8 pips light and 8 pips dark there is your balance. 

I've already pointed that out, that are the same amount of light and dark side force points, but thats not actually balance, because the spread of the light and dark side points on the sides aren't equal. The spread creates an imbalance, that directly translates into that a dark side force user in this system is by far weaker than a light side user of same comparable force power. And when you then add in the fact that to use the opposite side force points, it's going to cost strain and a destiny, it just further aggravates the imbalance. In my opinion, from a game mechanical and balance stand point, they should've made the force dice have equal amounts of sided force points with an equal distribution on sides and amounts, to make it balanced. But have light side and dark side points have their unique uses to reflect their inherently different qualities and drawbacks.

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13 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I've already pointed that out, that are the same amount of light and dark side force points, but thats not actually balance, because the spread of the light and dark side points on the sides aren't equal. The spread creates an imbalance, that directly translates into that a dark side force user in this system is by far weaker than a light side user of same comparable force power. And when you then add in the fact that to use the opposite side force points, it's going to cost strain and a destiny, it just further aggravates the imbalance. In my opinion, from a game mechanical and balance stand point, they should've made the force dice have equal amounts of sided force points with an equal distribution on sides and amounts, to make it balanced. But have light side and dark side points have their unique uses to reflect their inherently different qualities and drawbacks.

No, it doesn’t make an imbalance. There are more sides on the die with black (Dark Side) pips, denoting it being quicker and easier to access, with the sides with white (Light Side) pips having potentially more pips per side denoting the light being more effective and beneficial. It’s perfectly balanced in how the Force works in the lore. 

The Dark Side pips are akin to steroids. It gives quick and easy power at a cost down the road. The Light Side pips are akin to hard work and determination. It takes a lot longer, and more effort, but is, ultimately, more effective and produces better results.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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20 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I've already pointed that out, that are the same amount of light and dark side force points, but thats not actually balance, because the spread of the light and dark side points on the sides aren't equal. The spread creates an imbalance, that directly translates into that a dark side force user in this system is by far weaker than a light side user of same comparable force power. And when you then add in the fact that to use the opposite side force points, it's going to cost strain and a destiny, it just further aggravates the imbalance. In my opinion, from a game mechanical and balance stand point, they should've made the force dice have equal amounts of sided force points with an equal distribution on sides and amounts, to make it balanced. But have light side and dark side points have their unique uses to reflect their inherently different qualities and drawbacks.

but that is not true either. The dark side force user is going to get the pips to show up that he can use more often as their are more sides thus the phrase "quick, easier more seductive". Light just has a greater chance that on the rarer chance that their pips show up to have 2 pips though essentially because "the force is with them" it is balance, but the 2 work kind of differently balance is does not mean equal in all things, it means that the 2 have trade offs but in the grand scheme are equal and that is the system we have dark shows up more often but trades overall raw power for it. In addition, several powers do in fact have dark side only stuff that specifically states that if ANY dark side are used at all xyz happens. Showing that even 1 dark side pip used will make everything dark side. The dark side user needing to strain and flip a destiny point makes sense from the perspective of the corrupting power of the dark side. The dark side degrades it's user and where before the light flowed freely through the force user as he was apart of the light just like all life now the Dark side user must bend the force to his will. Flipping destiny and suffering 2 strain isnt that big a deal and can almost always be done when needed especially for dark force users that are controlled by the gm. Conversely needing to take strain and flip a destiny point for a light sider to use dark also makes sense due to the amount of emotional and mental strain it can have on someone who was trying to do good to feel such negative emotions. Ultimately, this is also about having a balanced GAME experience as well between force users and non-force users since if there were no taking strain and no flipping destiny points to use both sides of the force the force users would be completely overpowered as the force die itself has 0 blanks. Just take someone using enhance force power for athletics, they can use any pips for a success, or a advantage, now force rating 2 and you have a die that guarantees 2 successes, then influence being rolled with all the talking skills. If you can use both force pips without flipping or taking strain the force powers solve a vast majority of your problems without skills and the jedi and the sith in the movies are not shown to have this ability, only in the EU books where characters could through Black holes and they do not make sense.



Edit: an example of things not being exactly the same and still being balanced.... You have a scale.... on the left side you have 20 objects that weigh 8 pounds, and on the right side you have 8 objects that weigh 8 pounds. the scale balances perfectly, but if you want to take less trips with all the things on your side of the scale you will want to take the right side, but if you want to have something that you can more easily split among your 10 friends you will want to take the left. The scales still balance, but the 2 sides are different. There are 8 light and 8 dark pips but they are split up differently on the die and thus perform differently, very slightly differently but differently non the less, but that does not make them "unbalanced"

Edited by tunewalker

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On 5/25/2019 at 7:15 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Qui Gon was Not morally grey, he was as Light Side as you could get. While he may have been a “Maverick”, his “conflict” was with the Council’s overly dogmatic views; it was not a conflict of making too many morally questionable choices. He followed the Living Force, and never compromised his beliefs in doing what was right, regardless of what the Council said. 

Make no mistake; I love Qui-Gon. I agree he was definitely a Light Side User and a great example of what a Jedi should be (Maybe the best). 

However he was racking up Conflict fast in EP.1.  He uses the Force to convince a NPC to give his an on'bunko. Then uses it to protect a criminal from getting punished (OK maybe that doesn't count but he rolled a Despair on the Discipline check), he again tries to uses the Force to cheat Watto into taking worthless money.  Encourages and helps a child to run in a life and death race for pretty selfish reasons and then straight up cheats Watto.  Now, maybe he was rolling 10s the whole time or this was just a rough mission but if that's he normally operated like Master and Apprentice hint at, he probably wasn't a Paragon.  

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3 hours ago, samuraisolomon said:

Make no mistake; I love Qui-Gon. I agree he was definitely a Light Side User and a great example of what a Jedi should be (Maybe the best). 

However he was racking up Conflict fast in EP.1.  He uses the Force to convince a NPC to give his an on'bunko. Then uses it to protect a criminal from getting punished (OK maybe that doesn't count but he rolled a Despair on the Discipline check), he again tries to uses the Force to cheat Watto into taking worthless money.  Encourages and helps a child to run in a life and death race for pretty selfish reasons and then straight up cheats Watto.  Now, maybe he was rolling 10s the whole time or this was just a rough mission but if that's he normally operated like Master and Apprentice hint at, he probably wasn't a Paragon.  

except he did none of that for personal gain. So he probably didnt get conflict. And he didnt offer something worthless. He offered something that would be a  hassle to get into a more useful form at the location. Not the same thing. And again he used the force to protect someone. That is not conflict worthy. And Jar Jar had the equivilant of his 100th parking ticket. Which is not really a criminal. And he didnt use the force. He said Jar Jar owed him a life debt.

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On 5/25/2019 at 12:37 AM, InfinityIncarnate said:

Personally, I find the whole "flip a destiny point to use the opposite point" very broken, because it's a party resource, where the choice to use the destiny point is a personal choice and could be for personal reasons,

Meanwhile, there are various talents that also require the use of Destiny points (party resource) to trigger the character's individual effect (personal choice). All Signature Abilities require a Destiny point cost, as well...also personal use. Using a Destiny point to upgrade a check is also a personal use of that party resource. So, what's the problem with this Force mechanic using a Destiny point for personal use?

On 5/25/2019 at 12:37 AM, InfinityIncarnate said:

the force point distribution spread on the dice is rigged towards rolling more dark side than light. Why? Because it may be that when you count the amount of opposite points that there are an equal amount, but not an equal amount per side, which means you're more likely to roll dark side points, which forces you into more situations where you have to choose to spend a destiny point or fail the check.

And

On 5/25/2019 at 7:20 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'd also like to point out, that to me it seems that the force dice should've had the opposite point distribution, the reason being that with the current distribution of points it reflects something that isn't congruent with the lore.

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. "

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12 hours ago, samuraisolomon said:

Make no mistake; I love Qui-Gon. I agree he was definitely a Light Side User and a great example of what a Jedi should be (Maybe the best). 

However he was racking up Conflict fast in EP.1.  He uses the Force to convince a NPC to give his an on'bunko. Then uses it to protect a criminal from getting punished (OK maybe that doesn't count but he rolled a Despair on the Discipline check), he again tries to uses the Force to cheat Watto into taking worthless money.  Encourages and helps a child to run in a life and death race for pretty selfish reasons and then straight up cheats Watto.  Now, maybe he was rolling 10s the whole time or this was just a rough mission but if that's he normally operated like Master and Apprentice hint at, he probably wasn't a Paragon.  

 

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

except he did none of that for personal gain. So he probably didnt get conflict. And he didnt offer something worthless. He offered something that would be a  hassle to get into a more useful form at the location. Not the same thing. And again he used the force to protect someone. That is not conflict worthy. And Jar Jar had the equivilant of his 100th parking ticket. Which is not really a criminal. And he didnt use the force. He said Jar Jar owed him a life debt.

 

8 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

He also didn't cheat Watto. From the guy's surprised reaction at the outcome it's clear the die roll was rigged and that Qui-Gon countered that.

 

@Daeglan and @Stan Fresh are correct here. Qui Gon did all of that strictly for the sake of the mission and/or to free Anakin. None of it was for personal gain. A Jedi is allowed to lie, cheat, etc. as long as it is for a noble end.

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6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I'd say that truly gambling with the lives of the people of Naboo and Anakin's freedom would have been a conflict-worthy act. Countering a rigged game to preserve lives and gain someone's freedom from slavery, on the other hand? Why would you get conflict for that?

Because you've got Karen Traviss for a GM, where simply being a Jedi and just drawing a breath automatically gets you conflict? ;)

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

@Daeglan and @Stan Fresh are correct here. Qui Gon did all of that strictly for the sake of the mission and/or to free Anakin. None of it was for personal gain. A Jedi is allowed to lie, cheat, etc. as long as it is for a noble end.

Just because they were allowed to lie and cheat, doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer from internal conflict, because lying and cheating are still ethically wrong to do, so some conflict could be gained from it, just a lesser amount as it's for a noble end.

But in regards to the other, the dark side force user is weaker than the light side force, and the lore does not support this, and so far there haven't been provided anything the specifically proves it to be the case, that the dark side is indeed weaker. And to me it seems there is a lot of ingrained bias, and less objectivity, in the sense of this is how the system works and we're right, and you're wrong kind of attitude. But let me try to break down why I think that the force dice system is imbalanced, by first looking at the side probability, and it's not the only thing thats imbalanced, because unfortunately there other mechanics that worsens the imbalance that they cause on each other. Because the whole thing with light siders only suffering conflict and dark siders suffers strain, is also quite imbalanced as conflict has no real actual impact on a combat situation but strain can have have a huge impact on a combat situation and it can end it right there end then if a user crosses the threshold. But it makes it worse that the dice probality for getting the higher amount of sided force points is skewed towards the light side, because that translates into that a dark sider has to be of much higher force rating to be comparable, UNLESS the dark sider suffers strain even out that imbalance, with a limited resource that used for a variety of things in combat and crossing the threshold will incapacitate the dark sider. Furthermore, for the most part characters aren't going into combat with no strain, especially not dark siders, unless it's an npc. Conflict vs. strain, with regards to balance in combat, is just straight up imbalanced - period! If you say it's balanced or try to argue that is balanced, then you're either very biased or in denial, because facts don't lie. But anyways, I will start with force dice break down.

The three most likely to roll on a force dice:
1 Dark side point   : 58,333% - This one. - Easier and quicker, but only quicker with regards to action economy. (it's basically more accessible and inherently makes light side less accessible and thus more tempting)
2 Light side points: 25%         - This one. - Quicker in terms of force point build up per force dice side. (by having a higher probability and more potential force  point build up per side, it become more tempting for the dark side user)
1 Light side point  : 16,667%  - This one.
2 Dark side points : 8,333%   - Not this one.

Given the nature of the dice probaility some are bound to come up more often than not, so let me give you some examples of the different combinations - based on whats the most likely to roll.
We'll be examining it from the perspective of two force users, a light and a dark side, both with an FR3. We all know that it costs one destiny point to use the opposite sided force point, so it's assumed in it's cost to use the opposite.
Also, do consider it from the perspective as if these two force users were in a combat situation against each other.

First roll, 3 dark side, no light side.
This is by far the most likely outcome and obviously favors the dark sider, where if the light side were to use it, the light sider would have gain up to 3 conflict, but no strain is suffered. As the light side user can gain conflict to still be able to make use of the dark side points, and the conflict doesn't directly have an impact on combat it's less imbalanced. It's easier and quicker to use, but only quicker with regards to action economy, as you could keep wasting rounds on attempting to avoid conflict.

Second roll, 2 dark - 2 light.
This is the second most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored, it would cost the light sider would gain up to 2 conflict to use the 2 dark side points, the dark sider would suffer 2 strain, but no conflict. The two points could be very tempting to access for the dark sider, as it offers even more power.

Third roll, no dark - 6 light.
This is the third most likely outcome and quite obviously favors the light sider and more notable in comparison to the first roll, it favors the light sider by the double amount. The dark sider would gain 6 strain but no conflict.
But consider that his the third most likely outcome, and it would actually cost the dark sider 6 strain to use all 6 light side points, which is something like half the amount it's maximum strain. In a combat situation it's very likely that the dark sider wouldn't have the luxury to be able to afford either taking the strain nor pass up the points given, and this is even looking past the point that it also costs a destiny point. Also considering, that any character can suffer strain from a variety of reasons, but in combat the most likely would be from taking stun damage, spending strain on gaining more maneauvers and from force powers. Another thing here, is that it would be extremely tempting for the dark sider to make user of the light side points available, as it would be easy and quick access to force power, especially due to no dark side points being available on this roll, which the lore doesn't support. This is by far one of the cases that makes it most apparent, that this system is very imbalanced, and it heavily favors the light side - which again isn't supported by the lore.

Fourth roll, 1 dark - 4 light.
The fourth most likely outcome, the light sider much more favored than then dark sider is in the fifth roll, the light sider would suffer 1 strain and 1 conflict but it would not be worth it for the one point it would stand to gain.
The dark sider would suffer 4 strain but no conflict. Again, this would be very tempting for the dark sider to make use of the light side points available since there are almost no dark side points available.

Fifth roll, 2 dark - 1 light.
This is the fifth most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored but only by 1 point, and it would take only 1 point of conflict to even it out for the light sider, but could gain up to 2 conflict, but no strain, the dark sider would suffer 1 strain but gains no conflict.

Notice how the points are skewed in favor of the light side, and the fact that when dark side is deprived of dark side points, it's costing them a lot of strain to even out the disadvantage, where a light side user does not even lose strain from using the dark side points, which is quite imbalanced, as strain is a combat resource as well, in can severely impact the dark siders situation, options and can threatens it's life even. Considering that the conflict has no actual negative impact on a combat situation, makes the strain suffered by the dark sider even worse balance-wise. It essentially means because of the light side force point build up, that it's designed to punish the dark side user by having it "cost" the dark side user strain whenever there is a need to even out the imbalance.

The third roll has the double amount of light side points than the dark side had on the first roll, which also is where it becomes more apparent that in effect to even out this imbalance, the dark sider actually needs a much higher force rating to be able to be of comparable force power strength to avoid having to use strain to even out the imbalance. For the dark side user, it a lot of negatives, and the destiny point mechanic just further aggravate it, as it by design means that there can be situations where there are no destiny points available, and that means it can be impossible to even out this imbalance. This imbalance shouldn't even be there in the first place, from a game mechanical and balance perspective, the game should reflect their differences differently, and have more ideal balance for sides. Facts don't lie, it's heavily skewed in favor of the light side.

It shouldn't be conflict vs. strain, but much rather conflict vs. conflict and strain vs. strain, if anything. The dark side user should also gain conflict when converting light side points, but that doesn't work considering how conflict works, however my point is that a dark side user still has conflict within them pulling them towards the light, and when they use the light side points it's should still pull them, even while they're corrupting the light side to the dark side. Having it cost strain for the dark sider seriously impacts the dark siders ability to perform in combat and is even at risk of getting incapacitated the closer to the threshold limit it becomes. While also considering, that a dark side user also has it's max strain reduced, plus the fact the obligation can reduce the maxium strain as well, and there are critical injuries that affect strain too. It's infinite vs. finite, because the light side user can take infinite amounts of conflict and the dark sider can only take whatever the strain threshold allows for.

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2 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Just because they were allowed to lie and cheat, doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer from internal conflict, because lying and cheating are still ethically wrong to do, so some conflict could be gained from it, just a lesser amount as it's for a noble end.

 

Yes, it does. The book rules themselves even state as much. The rules fo Conflict for lying or cheating are very clear. It has to be for personal gain for a character to get Conflict. If it is done for a selfless purpose, then it garner no Conflict. 

Quote

But in regards to the other, the dark side force user is weaker than the light side force, and the lore does not support this, and so far there haven't been provided anything the specifically proves it to be the case, that the dark side is indeed weaker. And to me it seems there is a lot of ingrained bias, and less objectivity, in the sense of this is how the system works and we're right, and you're wrong kind of attitude. But let me try to break down why I think that the force dice system is imbalanced, by first looking at the side probability, and it's not the only thing thats imbalanced, because unfortunately there other mechanics that worsens the imbalance that they cause on each other. Because the whole thing with light siders only suffering conflict and dark siders suffers strain, is also quite imbalanced as conflict has no real actual impact on a combat situation but strain can have have a huge impact on a combat situation and it can end it right there end then if a user crosses the threshold. But it makes it worse that the dice probality for getting the higher amount of sided force points is skewed towards the light side, because that translates into that a dark sider has to be of much higher force rating to be comparable, UNLESS the dark sider suffers strain even out that imbalance, with a limited resource that used for a variety of things in combat and crossing the threshold will incapacitate the dark sider. Furthermore, for the most part characters aren't going into combat with no strain, especially not dark siders, unless it's an npc. Conflict vs. strain, with regards to balance in combat, is just straight up imbalanced - period! If you say it's balanced or try to argue that is balanced, then you're either very biased or in denial, because facts don't lie. But anyways, I will start with force dice break down.
 

Yes, the lore does. How many people have to explain this to you. The Dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive, but its "power" is all a lie. it is ultimately weaker than the Light Side.

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4 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Just because they were allowed to lie and cheat, doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer from internal conflict, because lying and cheating are still ethically wrong to do, so some conflict could be gained from it, just a lesser amount as it's for a noble end.

But in regards to the other, the dark side force user is weaker than the light side force, and the lore does not support this, and so far there haven't been provided anything the specifically proves it to be the case, that the dark side is indeed weaker. And to me it seems there is a lot of ingrained bias, and less objectivity, in the sense of this is how the system works and we're right, and you're wrong kind of attitude. But let me try to break down why I think that the force dice system is imbalanced, by first looking at the side probability, and it's not the only thing thats imbalanced, because unfortunately there other mechanics that worsens the imbalance that they cause on each other. Because the whole thing with light siders only suffering conflict and dark siders suffers strain, is also quite imbalanced as conflict has no real actual impact on a combat situation but strain can have have a huge impact on a combat situation and it can end it right there end then if a user crosses the threshold. But it makes it worse that the dice probality for getting the higher amount of sided force points is skewed towards the light side, because that translates into that a dark sider has to be of much higher force rating to be comparable, UNLESS the dark sider suffers strain even out that imbalance, with a limited resource that used for a variety of things in combat and crossing the threshold will incapacitate the dark sider. Furthermore, for the most part characters aren't going into combat with no strain, especially not dark siders, unless it's an npc. Conflict vs. strain, with regards to balance in combat, is just straight up imbalanced - period! If you say it's balanced or try to argue that is balanced, then you're either very biased or in denial, because facts don't lie. But anyways, I will start with force dice break down.

The three most likely to roll on a force dice:
1 Dark side point   : 58,333% - This one. - Easier and quicker, but only quicker with regards to action economy. (it's basically more accessible and inherently makes light side less accessible and thus more tempting)
2 Light side points: 25%         - This one. - Quicker in terms of force point build up per force dice side. (by having a higher probability and more potential force  point build up per side, it become more tempting for the dark side user)
1 Light side point  : 16,667%  - This one.
2 Dark side points : 8,333%   - Not this one.

Given the nature of the dice probaility some are bound to come up more often than not, so let me give you some examples of the different combinations - based on whats the most likely to roll.
We'll be examining it from the perspective of two force users, a light and a dark side, both with an FR3. We all know that it costs one destiny point to use the opposite sided force point, so it's assumed in it's cost to use the opposite.
Also, do consider it from the perspective as if these two force users were in a combat situation against each other.

First roll, 3 dark side, no light side.
This is by far the most likely outcome and obviously favors the dark sider, where if the light side were to use it, the light sider would have gain up to 3 conflict, but no strain is suffered. As the light side user can gain conflict to still be able to make use of the dark side points, and the conflict doesn't directly have an impact on combat it's less imbalanced. It's easier and quicker to use, but only quicker with regards to action economy, as you could keep wasting rounds on attempting to avoid conflict.

Second roll, 2 dark - 2 light.
This is the second most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored, it would cost the light sider would gain up to 2 conflict to use the 2 dark side points, the dark sider would suffer 2 strain, but no conflict. The two points could be very tempting to access for the dark sider, as it offers even more power.

Third roll, no dark - 6 light.
This is the third most likely outcome and quite obviously favors the light sider and more notable in comparison to the first roll, it favors the light sider by the double amount. The dark sider would gain 6 strain but no conflict.
But consider that his the third most likely outcome, and it would actually cost the dark sider 6 strain to use all 6 light side points, which is something like half the amount it's maximum strain. In a combat situation it's very likely that the dark sider wouldn't have the luxury to be able to afford either taking the strain nor pass up the points given, and this is even looking past the point that it also costs a destiny point. Also considering, that any character can suffer strain from a variety of reasons, but in combat the most likely would be from taking stun damage, spending strain on gaining more maneauvers and from force powers. Another thing here, is that it would be extremely tempting for the dark sider to make user of the light side points available, as it would be easy and quick access to force power, especially due to no dark side points being available on this roll, which the lore doesn't support. This is by far one of the cases that makes it most apparent, that this system is very imbalanced, and it heavily favors the light side - which again isn't supported by the lore.

Fourth roll, 1 dark - 4 light.
The fourth most likely outcome, the light sider much more favored than then dark sider is in the fifth roll, the light sider would suffer 1 strain and 1 conflict but it would not be worth it for the one point it would stand to gain.
The dark sider would suffer 4 strain but no conflict. Again, this would be very tempting for the dark sider to make use of the light side points available since there are almost no dark side points available.

Fifth roll, 2 dark - 1 light.
This is the fifth most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored but only by 1 point, and it would take only 1 point of conflict to even it out for the light sider, but could gain up to 2 conflict, but no strain, the dark sider would suffer 1 strain but gains no conflict.

Notice how the points are skewed in favor of the light side, and the fact that when dark side is deprived of dark side points, it's costing them a lot of strain to even out the disadvantage, where a light side user does not even lose strain from using the dark side points, which is quite imbalanced, as strain is a combat resource as well, in can severely impact the dark siders situation, options and can threatens it's life even. Considering that the conflict has no actual negative impact on a combat situation, makes the strain suffered by the dark sider even worse balance-wise. It essentially means because of the light side force point build up, that it's designed to punish the dark side user by having it "cost" the dark side user strain whenever there is a need to even out the imbalance.

The third roll has the double amount of light side points than the dark side had on the first roll, which also is where it becomes more apparent that in effect to even out this imbalance, the dark sider actually needs a much higher force rating to be able to be of comparable force power strength to avoid having to use strain to even out the imbalance. For the dark side user, it a lot of negatives, and the destiny point mechanic just further aggravate it, as it by design means that there can be situations where there are no destiny points available, and that means it can be impossible to even out this imbalance. This imbalance shouldn't even be there in the first place, from a game mechanical and balance perspective, the game should reflect their differences differently, and have more ideal balance for sides. Facts don't lie, it's heavily skewed in favor of the light side.

It shouldn't be conflict vs. strain, but much rather conflict vs. conflict and strain vs. strain, if anything. The dark side user should also gain conflict when converting light side points, but that doesn't work considering how conflict works, however my point is that a dark side user still has conflict within them pulling them towards the light, and when they use the light side points it's should still pull them, even while they're corrupting the light side to the dark side. Having it cost strain for the dark sider seriously impacts the dark siders ability to perform in combat and is even at risk of getting incapacitated the closer to the threshold limit it becomes. While also considering, that a dark side user also has it's max strain reduced, plus the fact the obligation can reduce the maxium strain as well, and there are critical injuries that affect strain too. It's infinite vs. finite, because the light side user can take infinite amounts of conflict and the dark sider can only take whatever the strain threshold allows for.

Well 2 problems.
1. You clearly have not read the GM section on conflict. Because you dont understand it.

2. You dont understand probability AT ALL. The most likely outcome is NOT 3 dark dark side. That is not how probability works..
Go read this

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Just because they were allowed to lie and cheat, doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer from internal conflict, because lying and cheating are still ethically wrong to do, so some conflict could be gained from it, just a lesser amount as it's for a noble end.

But in regards to the other, the dark side force user is weaker than the light side force, and the lore does not support this, and so far there haven't been provided anything the specifically proves it to be the case, that the dark side is indeed weaker. And to me it seems there is a lot of ingrained bias, and less objectivity, in the sense of this is how the system works and we're right, and you're wrong kind of attitude. But let me try to break down why I think that the force dice system is imbalanced, by first looking at the side probability, and it's not the only thing thats imbalanced, because unfortunately there other mechanics that worsens the imbalance that they cause on each other. Because the whole thing with light siders only suffering conflict and dark siders suffers strain, is also quite imbalanced as conflict has no real actual impact on a combat situation but strain can have have a huge impact on a combat situation and it can end it right there end then if a user crosses the threshold. But it makes it worse that the dice probality for getting the higher amount of sided force points is skewed towards the light side, because that translates into that a dark sider has to be of much higher force rating to be comparable, UNLESS the dark sider suffers strain even out that imbalance, with a limited resource that used for a variety of things in combat and crossing the threshold will incapacitate the dark sider. Furthermore, for the most part characters aren't going into combat with no strain, especially not dark siders, unless it's an npc. Conflict vs. strain, with regards to balance in combat, is just straight up imbalanced - period! If you say it's balanced or try to argue that is balanced, then you're either very biased or in denial, because facts don't lie. But anyways, I will start with force dice break down.

The three most likely to roll on a force dice:
1 Dark side point   : 58,333% - This one. - Easier and quicker, but only quicker with regards to action economy. (it's basically more accessible and inherently makes light side less accessible and thus more tempting)
2 Light side points: 25%         - This one. - Quicker in terms of force point build up per force dice side. (by having a higher probability and more potential force  point build up per side, it become more tempting for the dark side user)
1 Light side point  : 16,667%  - This one.
2 Dark side points : 8,333%   - Not this one.

Given the nature of the dice probaility some are bound to come up more often than not, so let me give you some examples of the different combinations - based on whats the most likely to roll.
We'll be examining it from the perspective of two force users, a light and a dark side, both with an FR3. We all know that it costs one destiny point to use the opposite sided force point, so it's assumed in it's cost to use the opposite.
Also, do consider it from the perspective as if these two force users were in a combat situation against each other.

First roll, 3 dark side, no light side.
This is by far the most likely outcome and obviously favors the dark sider, where if the light side were to use it, the light sider would have gain up to 3 conflict, but no strain is suffered. As the light side user can gain conflict to still be able to make use of the dark side points, and the conflict doesn't directly have an impact on combat it's less imbalanced. It's easier and quicker to use, but only quicker with regards to action economy, as you could keep wasting rounds on attempting to avoid conflict.

Second roll, 2 dark - 2 light.
This is the second most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored, it would cost the light sider would gain up to 2 conflict to use the 2 dark side points, the dark sider would suffer 2 strain, but no conflict. The two points could be very tempting to access for the dark sider, as it offers even more power.

Third roll, no dark - 6 light.
This is the third most likely outcome and quite obviously favors the light sider and more notable in comparison to the first roll, it favors the light sider by the double amount. The dark sider would gain 6 strain but no conflict.
But consider that his the third most likely outcome, and it would actually cost the dark sider 6 strain to use all 6 light side points, which is something like half the amount it's maximum strain. In a combat situation it's very likely that the dark sider wouldn't have the luxury to be able to afford either taking the strain nor pass up the points given, and this is even looking past the point that it also costs a destiny point. Also considering, that any character can suffer strain from a variety of reasons, but in combat the most likely would be from taking stun damage, spending strain on gaining more maneauvers and from force powers. Another thing here, is that it would be extremely tempting for the dark sider to make user of the light side points available, as it would be easy and quick access to force power, especially due to no dark side points being available on this roll, which the lore doesn't support. This is by far one of the cases that makes it most apparent, that this system is very imbalanced, and it heavily favors the light side - which again isn't supported by the lore.

Fourth roll, 1 dark - 4 light.
The fourth most likely outcome, the light sider much more favored than then dark sider is in the fifth roll, the light sider would suffer 1 strain and 1 conflict but it would not be worth it for the one point it would stand to gain.
The dark sider would suffer 4 strain but no conflict. Again, this would be very tempting for the dark sider to make use of the light side points available since there are almost no dark side points available.

Fifth roll, 2 dark - 1 light.
This is the fifth most likely outcome and the dark sider is slightly favored but only by 1 point, and it would take only 1 point of conflict to even it out for the light sider, but could gain up to 2 conflict, but no strain, the dark sider would suffer 1 strain but gains no conflict.

Notice how the points are skewed in favor of the light side, and the fact that when dark side is deprived of dark side points, it's costing them a lot of strain to even out the disadvantage, where a light side user does not even lose strain from using the dark side points, which is quite imbalanced, as strain is a combat resource as well, in can severely impact the dark siders situation, options and can threatens it's life even. Considering that the conflict has no actual negative impact on a combat situation, makes the strain suffered by the dark sider even worse balance-wise. It essentially means because of the light side force point build up, that it's designed to punish the dark side user by having it "cost" the dark side user strain whenever there is a need to even out the imbalance.

The third roll has the double amount of light side points than the dark side had on the first roll, which also is where it becomes more apparent that in effect to even out this imbalance, the dark sider actually needs a much higher force rating to be able to be of comparable force power strength to avoid having to use strain to even out the imbalance. For the dark side user, it a lot of negatives, and the destiny point mechanic just further aggravate it, as it by design means that there can be situations where there are no destiny points available, and that means it can be impossible to even out this imbalance. This imbalance shouldn't even be there in the first place, from a game mechanical and balance perspective, the game should reflect their differences differently, and have more ideal balance for sides. Facts don't lie, it's heavily skewed in favor of the light side.

It shouldn't be conflict vs. strain, but much rather conflict vs. conflict and strain vs. strain, if anything. The dark side user should also gain conflict when converting light side points, but that doesn't work considering how conflict works, however my point is that a dark side user still has conflict within them pulling them towards the light, and when they use the light side points it's should still pull them, even while they're corrupting the light side to the dark side. Having it cost strain for the dark sider seriously impacts the dark siders ability to perform in combat and is even at risk of getting incapacitated the closer to the threshold limit it becomes. While also considering, that a dark side user also has it's max strain reduced, plus the fact the obligation can reduce the maxium strain as well, and there are critical injuries that affect strain too. It's infinite vs. finite, because the light side user can take infinite amounts of conflict and the dark sider can only take whatever the strain threshold allows for.

Edit: the lightsider has to take strain and flip a destiny point as well to use dark side in addition to the conflict. Both are equal in the strain using department, dark sider has the advantage of not having his moral state shifted after combat instead he ONLY has to take the strain (again same strain the lightsider has to take to use dark) that can be healed with the equivalent of a quick breather and a chocolate bar

Dark sider is ok with using 3 points on the first roll, lightsider is ok with using 0. Dark side user stronger

Dark side user is ok with using 4 points on the second roll, Lightsider is ok with using 2.... Dark side user stronger

Dark Side User is ok with using 6 points on the third roll, and so is the light sider, they are equal.

Dark Side user is ok with using 5 points on the fourth roll, Lightsider is ok with using 4, Dark sider user is stronger

Dark side user is ok wth using 3 points on the final roll, Light sider ok with 1, Dark sider is stronger.

The force is equal, the users are not, and depending on whether the user has the strain or not the dark side user will consistently have good force points because light side points do not give negative conflict. They are not worried about using light messing with their darkness, so all they worry about is strain and destiny points which is incredibly small price to pay. In all cases the Dark side user is still using the dark side even if he uses white pips. Balance does not mean the same thing as exactly the same or equal. One more factor for the balance is the fact that dark side users only have to worry about strain and destiny when using light, while light side users have to worry about that + conflict points when using dark. It balances it out.


Edit 2: honestly my post is almost completely inconsequential because the probability thing just shows it beautifully. The dark side user will be able to get the power he needs much more consistently, while the light sider has a greater chance for both complete failure and slightly larger bursts. A Force Rating 2 individual has the exact same odds between dark and light to get 2 or 3 force points, but the darksider has much greater odds of 1 point while the light sider has much greater at 0. At 3, both are close at 2 and 3, with light having greater odds at 4 and 0, while dark has greater odds of 1. 

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does. The book rules themselves even state as much. The rules fo Conflict for lying or cheating are very clear. It has to be for personal gain for a character to get Conflict. If it is done for a selfless purpose, then it garner no Conflict. 

Yes, the lore does. How many people have to explain this to you. The Dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive, but its "power" is all a lie. it is ultimately weaker than the Light Side.

The rules say that some lies can be told without penalty to benefit others, such as avoiding a combat situation or protecting innocents. - Can be, but not always - obviously it depends on the actual case, and if there is some kind of benefit, even it's not necessarily obvious, or even unconscious wants.

You keep saying it's weaker, but I see no hard evidence on that matter, I see you argue for it, which are basically your opinions on the matter.

 

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Well 2 problems.
1. You clearly have not read the GM section on conflict. Because you dont understand it.

2. You dont understand probability AT ALL. The most likely outcome is NOT 3 dark dark side. That is not how probability works..
Go read this

 

What makes you think I don't understand the conflict rules?

It might not be the most likely outcome, but adding in more dices with the same amount of probality does not change the base probability of either side turning up for each dice, but it does change the overall probability. I do know how to do probability, but there are more ways to get the same result, and since it's very late here I decided to do it more differently (less math heavy), which obviously weren't completely correct, but it actually doesn't change how those rolls would affect the situation and what the light and dark side user could do in the situation. Furthermore, those are the combinations you can get when you exclude the one thats going to to be the least likely to occur, namely the double dark point, which has the 8,333% (1/12) chance to occur on one force dice, so it wouldn't make sense to include, but I have now.

Basically, to get the precise probility:
Probability of all = Probability of outcome one × Probability of outcome two × Probability of outcome three × .... = X × 100 = Probability in percent

The probability of roll one would be: 5/12 × 5/12 × 5/12 = 0,416667 × 100 = 41,6667%
The probability of roll two would be: 3/12 × 5/12 × 5/12 = 0,043403 × 100 = 4,3403%
The probability of roll three would be: 3/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,015625 × 100 = 1,5625%
The probability of roll four would be: 5/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,026042 × 100 = 2,6042%
The probability of roll five would be: 5/12 × 5/12 × 2/12 = 0,166667 × 16,6667%
-------------------------------------------------
The Probability of 3 dark and 2 light: 1/12 × 5/12 × 3/12 = 0,014468 × 100 = 1,4468%
The Probability of 2 dark and 3 light: 1/12 × 3/12 × 2/12 = 0,005208 × 100 = 0,5208%
The Probability of 2 dark and 4 light: 1/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,003472 × 100 = 0,3472%

As you can see, excluding the double dark points probability with any light side combination, are below any of the other probabilities, which is why I excluded them from the initial calculation.

So basically, the order would be:
1: Roll #1 - 3 dark side, no light - 41,6667%
2: Roll #5 - 2 dark - 1 light  -16,6667%
3: Roll #2 - 2 dark - 2 light - 4,3403%
4: Roll #4 - 1 dark - 4 light - 2,6042%
5: Roll #3 - no dark - 6 light - 1,5625%
-------------------------------------------------
3 dark - 2 light - 1,4468%
2 dark - 3 light - 0,5208%
2 dark - 4 light - 0,3472%

Light siders only gaining conflict from converting dark side points, and dark siders only suffering strain from converting light side points, is in my opinion, very imbalanced.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Premature posting - holding space apparently posted it.

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1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

Dark sider is ok with using 3 points on the first roll, lightsider is ok with using 0. Dark side user stronger

Dark side user is ok with using 4 points on the second roll, Lightsider is ok with using 2.... Dark side user stronger

Dark Side User is ok with using 6 points on the third roll, and so is the light sider, they are equal.

Dark Side user is ok with using 5 points on the fourth roll, Lightsider is ok with using 4, Dark sider user is stronger

Dark side user is ok wth using 3 points on the final roll, Light sider ok with 1, Dark sider is stronger.

The force is equal, the users are not, and depending on whether the user has the strain or not the dark side user will consistently have good force points because light side points do not give negative conflict. They are not worried about using light messing with their darkness, so all they worry about is strain and destiny points which is incredibly small price to pay. In all cases the Dark side user is still using the dark side even if he uses white pips. Balance does not mean the same thing as exactly the same or equal. One more factor for the balance is the fact that dark side users only have to worry about strain and destiny when using light, while light side users have to worry about that + conflict points when using dark. It balances it out.

The force is clearly not equal in this system, because if it was, then it would also have a balanced force point distribution per side, it does not!
I agree, the users are different, but thats not how it's reflected on the force dice, the force dice is biased because it doesn't have a fair/balanced distribution.
Strain is actually a very high price to pay, even when they don't have to worry about conflict, because reaching the maximum amount of conflict doesn't have any additional consequences that getting maximum strain penalties.
(which also why I think strain should be for both or for none, and both sides should be affected by sided conflict)

I disagree with light siders only using conflict and dark siders only using strain, equals each other out, they do not!
Why? Taking conflict doesn't necessarily equate to falling to the dark side, that depends on how much they do it it per session, plus they can atone and redeem themselves. Dark siders cannot as easily, atone and redeem themselves, especially not under this system. Suffering strain equates to becoming more and more limited in a combat situation, and it inherently will lead the dark sider to be at much great risk at becoming incapacitated during combat. Does conflict limit a light sider user in combat? No it does not, doesn't actually limit the light side user, it's a soft limit, because the light sider can choose to take conflict, which will have NO negative impact on it's situation in combat or it's ability to perform. Suffering strain on the other hand imposes a hard limit on the dark sider, it has a negative impact on it's' situation in combat and it's ability to perform. Why does suffering strain limit in combat? This should be obvious, but as strain is a limited resource (including being different kind of health pool - which roughly translates into all kinds of fatigue), it inherently is a limited resource as it's not an infinite resource - a resource being used for various things in combat, including being a measure of fatigue. Guess what happens if one goes beyond the strain threshold? The character in question is incapacitated. Can a character who's incapacitated do anything? No! Which basically means in a combat situation, the character would be at the mercy of his/her adversary(ies). Suffering strain has a lot more consequences than you seemingly are willing to acknowledge.

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28 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

The rules say that some lies can be told without penalty to benefit others, such as avoiding a combat situation or protecting innocents. - Can be, but not always - obviously it depends on the actual case, and if there is some kind of benefit, even it's not necessarily obvious, or even unconscious wants.

You keep saying it's weaker, but I see no hard evidence on that matter, I see you argue for it, which are basically your opinions on the matter.

 

What makes you think I don't understand the conflict rules?

It might not be the most likely outcome, but adding in more dices with the same amount of probality does not change the base probability of either side turning up for each dice, but it does change the overall probability. I do know how to do probability, but there are more ways to get the same result, and since it's very late here I decided to do it more differently (less math heavy), which obviously weren't completely correct, but it actually doesn't change how those rolls would affect the situation and what the light and dark side user could do in the situation. Furthermore, those are the combinations you can get when you exclude the one thats going to to be the least likely to occur, namely the double dark point, which has the 8,333% (1/12) chance to occur on one force dice, so it wouldn't make sense to include, but I have now.

Basically, to get the precise probility:
Probability of all = Probability of outcome one × Probability of outcome two × Probability of outcome three × .... = X × 100 = Probability in percent

The probability of roll one would be: 5/12 × 5/12 × 5/12 = 0,416667 × 100 = 41,6667%
The probability of roll two would be: 3/12 × 5/12 × 5/12 = 0,043403 × 100 = 4,3403%
The probability of roll three would be: 3/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,015625 × 100 = 1,5625%
The probability of roll four would be: 5/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,026042 × 100 = 2,6042%
The probability of roll five would be: 5/12 × 5/12 × 2/12 = 0,166667 × 16,6667%
-------------------------------------------------
The Probability of 3 dark and 2 light: 1/12 × 5/12 × 3/12 = 0,014468 × 100 = 1,4468%
The Probability of 2 dark and 3 light: 1/12 × 3/12 × 2/12 = 0,005208 × 100 = 0,5208%
The Probability of 2 dark and 4 light: 1/12 × 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,003472 × 100 = 0,3472%

As you can see, excluding the double dark points probability with any light side combination, are below any of the other probabilities, which is why I excluded them from the initial calculation.

So basically, the order would be:
1: Roll #1 - 3 dark side, no light - 41,6667%
2: Roll #5 - 2 dark - 1 light  -16,6667%
3: Roll #2 - 2 dark - 2 light - 4,3403%
4: Roll #4 - 1 dark - 4 light - 2,6042%
5: Roll #3 - no dark - 6 light - 1,5625%
-------------------------------------------------
3 dark - 2 light - 1,4468%
2 dark - 3 light - 0,5208%
2 dark - 4 light - 0,3472%

Light siders only gaining conflict from converting dark side points, and dark siders only suffering strain from converting light side points, is in my opinion, very imbalanced.

It is intentionally that way. As everyone has repeatedly told you the dark side is quicker and easier.  Odds are if you roll lightside pips you will get 2.

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6 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

           

The force is clearly not equal in this system, because if it was, then it would also have a balanced force point distribution per side, it does not!
I agree, the users are different, but thats not how it's reflected on the force dice, the force dice is biased because it doesn't have a fair/balanced distribution.
Strain is actually a very high price to pay, even when they don't have to worry about conflict, because reaching the maximum amount of conflict doesn't have any additional consequences that getting maximum strain penalties.
(which also why I think strain should be for both or for none, and both sides should be affected by sided conflict)

I disagree with light siders only using conflict and dark siders only using strain, equals each other out, they do not!
Why? Taking conflict doesn't necessarily equate to falling to the dark side, that depends on how much they do it it per session, plus they can atone and redeem themselves. Dark siders cannot as easily, atone and redeem themselves, especially not under this system. Suffering strain equates to becoming more and more limited in a combat situation, and it inherently will lead the dark sider to be at much great risk at becoming incapacitated during combat. Does conflict limit a light sider user in combat? No it does not, doesn't actually limit the light side user, it's a soft limit, because the light sider can choose to take conflict, which will have NO negative impact on it's situation in combat or it's ability to perform. Suffering strain on the other hand imposes a hard limit on the dark sider, it has a negative impact on it's' situation in combat and it's ability to perform. Why does suffering strain limit in combat? This should be obvious, but as strain is a limited resource (including being different kind of health pool - which roughly translates into all kinds of fatigue), it inherently is a limited resource as it's not an infinite resource - a resource being used for various things in combat, including being a measure of fatigue. Guess what happens if one goes beyond the strain threshold? The character in question is incapacitated. Can a character who's incapacitated do anything? No! Which basically means in a combat situation, the character would be at the mercy of his/her adversary(ies). Suffering strain has a lot more consequences than you seemingly are willing to acknowledge.

Ok so check the edits..... both sides DO take strain that is already equal, they are both affected by strain and light is the only one affected by conflict evening the process out if anything Dark Side users are stronger at first glance again just check the statistic page, it is not till very high force ratings that light starts to catch up, but it is never outright full on superior by more than a point on average. Essentially sorry, but you are wrong on almost every level with how you are assessing the force die.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

It is intentionally that way. As everyone has repeatedly told you the dark side is quicker and easier.  Odds are if you roll lightside pips you will get 2.

Yes, and everyone keeps dismissing, that it's not balanced.
Like I said, I get that the dark side is easier and quicker, because it's more accessible.
...HOWEVER, the light side is also quicker, because it has a quicker build up, which is also true per force rating.
On one force dice, it's easier to get a double light than a double dark, easier do get one dark point than one light.

On two force dice, it's easier for dark sider to score two dark points than a light sider
The Probability of 2 dark and 0 light: 5/12 × 5/12  = 0,173611 × 100 = 17,3611%
The Probability of 1 dark and 2 light: 5/12 × 3/12 = 0,104167 × 100 = 10,4167%
The Probability of 0 dark and 4 light: 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,0625 × 100 = 6,25%%
The Probability of 0 dark and 3 light: 3/12 × 2/12 = 0,041667 × 100 = 4,1667%
The Probability of 3 dark and 0 light: 1/12 × 5/12  = 0,034722 × 100 = 3,4722%
The Probability of 2 dark and 2 light: 1/12 × 3/12  = 0,020833 × 100 = 2,0833%
The Probability of 2 dark and 1 light: 1/12 × 2/12 = 0,013889 × 100 = 1,3889%

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

Ok so check the edits..... both sides DO take strain that is already equal, they are both affected by strain and light is the only one affected by conflict evening the process out if anything Dark Side users are stronger at first glance again just check the statistic page, it is not till very high force ratings that light starts to catch up, but it is never outright full on superior by more than a point on average. Essentially sorry, but you are wrong on almost every level with how you are assessing the force die.

You're right, thats my bad, remembered it as conflict only, but both do suffer strain.
In regards to being wrong on every level of the force dice, I definitely disagree.
The statistics page, doesn't reflect the actual probabilities with specific out comes like the ones I've presented here, because the statistics page deals with minimum and least for each, but not for both on the same roll.

The probability for getting at least one dark: 7/12 = 0,583 × 100 = 58,33%
The probability for getting at least one light: 5/12 = 0,417 × 100 = 41,7
The probability for getting at least two light: 3/12 = 0,25 × 100 = 25%
The probability for getting at least two dark: 1/12 = 0,0833 × 100 = 8,33
In conclusion to above calculation:
Dark side is favored on getting 1's.
Light Side is favored on getting 2's


Inherently because it's easier to get dark 1's, it also means a dark sider requires a higher force rating to more reliably avoid taking strain, compared to a light sider of comparable force rating, which in effect means that light side slowly becomes stronger than dark, when not having to resort to taking strain. Do you agree? If not, where am I wrong in my accessment? Because adding more dice to both sides doesn't solve it, in fact it only makes light side able to generate more light side points than dark side.

Either way, I still haven't seen any evidence that in fact points to that light side is supposed to ultimately be the stronger side, to the contrary, I've found that GL himself in AOTC commentary have said the dark side is ultimately the stronger side of the two. However, there is a paradox to that, because light side is sustainable in it self, where as dark side is not sustainable in it self, but the dark side can sustain itself through being cannibalistic in nature, consuming/using  others lifeforce.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Correction

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Yes, and everyone keeps dismissing, that it's not balanced.
Like I said, I get that the dark side is easier and quicker, because it's more accessible.
...HOWEVER, the light side is also quicker, because it has a quicker build up, which is also true per force rating.
On one force dice, it's easier to get a double light than a double dark, easier do get one dark point than one light.

On two force dice, it's easier for dark sider to score two dark points than a light sider
The Probability of 2 dark and 0 light: 5/12 × 5/12  = 0,173611 × 100 = 17,3611%
The Probability of 1 dark and 2 light: 5/12 × 3/12 = 0,104167 × 100 = 10,4167%
The Probability of 0 dark and 4 light: 3/12 × 3/12 = 0,0625 × 100 = 6,25%%
The Probability of 0 dark and 3 light: 3/12 × 2/12 = 0,041667 × 100 = 4,1667%
The Probability of 3 dark and 0 light: 1/12 × 5/12  = 0,034722 × 100 = 3,4722%
The Probability of 2 dark and 2 light: 1/12 × 3/12  = 0,020833 × 100 = 2,0833%
The Probability of 2 dark and 1 light: 1/12 × 2/12 = 0,013889 × 100 = 1,3889%

You're right, thats my bad, remembered it as conflict only, but both do suffer strain.
In regards to being wrong on every level of the force dice, I definitely disagree.
The statistics page, doesn't reflect the actual probabilities with specific out comes like the ones I've presented here, because the statistics page deals with minimum and least for each, but not for both on the same roll.

The probability for getting at least one dark or one light: 7/12 = 0,583 × 100 = 58,33%
The probability for getting at least one light: 5/12 = 0,417 × 100 = 41,7
The probability for getting at least two light: 3/12 = 0,25 × 100 = 25%
The probability for getting at least two dark: 1/12 = 0,0833 × 100 = 8,33
In conclusion to above calculation:
Dark side is favored on getting 1's.
Light Side is favored on getting 2's


Inherently because it's easier to get dark 1's, it also means a dark sider requires a higher force rating to more reliably avoid taking strain, compared to a light sider of comparable force rating, which in effect means that light side slowly becomes stronger than dark, when not having to resort to taking strain. Do you agree? If not, where am I wrong in my accessment? Because adding more dice to both sides doesn't solve it, in fact it only makes light side able to generate more light side points than dark side.

Either way, I still haven't seen any evidence that in fact points to that light side is supposed to ultimately be the stronger side, to the contrary, I've found that GL himself in AOTC commentary have said the dark side is ultimately the stronger side of the two. However, there is a paradox to that, because light side is sustainable in it self, where as dark side is not sustainable in it self, but the dark side can sustain itself through being cannibalistic in nature, consuming/using  others lifeforce.

check it again bud, because it does in fact show the probability of getting exact numbers in the very first part. Sorry, but no on average a dark side user will have more reliable sides, while a light side is more likely to be swingy either up by 1 point or having much higher odds at just straight 0 pips.

Probability of getting 0 light pips= 7/12
Probability of getting 0 dark pips= 5/12

The stats in that page are all there. The probability of getting 1 pip on 2 dice, of getting 2 pips on 2 dice, 3 pips on 2 dice for both dark and light it is all there. The second chart is the one focused on getting "at least x many". The first 2 charts are just raw numbers and if you follow them through Force Rating 2 and 3, you will see some pretty even numbers. With the dark side being all around more reliable.


Edit with 2 dice:

chance of 0 light side pips: 34 .03%, Chance of 0 Dark side pips: 17.36
Chance of only 1 light side pip: 19.44 Chance of only 1 Dark side pip: 41.67
Chance of 2 Light side pips: 31.94 CHance of  2 dark side pips: 31.94
Chance of 3 light side pips: 8.33, Chance of 3 dark Side pips: 8.33
Chance of 4 light side pips: 6.25, Chance of 4 dark side pips: .69


As you can see the numbers are the exact same in the 2 and 3 range. with chances being much higher for light in both the 0 and the 4 line and much higher for dark in the 1 line. This IS balanced, not equal, as in not exactly the same, but balanced as in there are trade offs but the trade offs are equal. Dark is more reliable, light has a 5.5% greater chance at getting 4 pips.... 

Edited by tunewalker

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4 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

check it again bud, because it does in fact show the probability of getting exact numbers in the very first part. Sorry, but no on average a dark side user will have more reliable sides, while a light side is more likely to be swingy either up by 1 point or having much higher odds at just straight 0 pips.

Probability of getting 0 light pips= 7/12
Probability of getting 0 dark pips= 5/12

The statistics pages shows it INDIVIDUALLY for each side, not combined for both sides IN A SINGLE ROLL! - This is where what I'm showing is different, because it gives the EXACT probability of getting that result from the force dice roll based on the force rating! - UNLESS you're looking on a different statistics page than me? I'm looking at the one by Absol197, is that one you're referring to?

I stated those probabilities individually in the post just before yours, it slightly favors the dark, I know but given the light side point distribution, it's easier to get more light points than dark points.
Just take a look at the statistics page by Absol197, on the tables for least amount of points, respectively for light and dark. In general, as force rating rises dark side is better getting lower amount and light is better at getting the higher amounts.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

The statistics pages shows it INDIVIDUALLY for each side, not combined for both sides IN A SINGLE ROLL! - This is where what I'm showing is different, because it gives the EXACT probability of getting that result from the force dice roll based on the force rating! - UNLESS you're looking on a different statistics page than me? I'm looking at the one by Absol197, is that one you're referring to?

I stated those probabilities individually in the post just before yours, it slightly favors the dark, I know but given the light side point distribution, it's easier to get more light points than dark points.
Just take a look at the statistics page by Absol197, on the tables for least amount of points, respectively for light and dark. In general, as force rating rises dark side is better getting lower amount and light is better at getting the higher amounts.

So basically you just noticed what we have been telling you for pages.

Edited by Daeglan

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

           

The force is clearly not equal in this system, because if it was, then it would also have a balanced force point distribution per side, it does not!
I agree, the users are different, but thats not how it's reflected on the force dice, the force dice is biased because it doesn't have a fair/balanced distribution.
Strain is actually a very high price to pay, even when they don't have to worry about conflict, because reaching the maximum amount of conflict doesn't have any additional consequences that getting maximum strain penalties.
(which also why I think strain should be for both or for none, and both sides should be affected by sided conflict)

As a big fan of probability and statistics, let me see if I can help explain the most common forum position on this issue from a more math-based perspective.  Although first, I would be remiss if I didn't correct an apparent misunderstanding of the rules-as-written:

--If a Dark-side Force user wants to use the white pips they rolled on a Force power check, they must flip a Destiny Point in order to do so, and then additionally suffer 1 strain per white pip they use as a Force Point.  They also suffer 1 conflict for each black pip they use as a Force Point.
--If a Light-side Force user wants to use the black pips they rolled on a Force power check, they must flip a Destiny Point in order to do so, and then additionally suffer 1 strain per black pip they use as a Force Point.  They also suffer 1 conflict for each black pip they use as a Force Point.

Both sides suffer strain equally for making use of the other alignment's pips.  The only difference is conflict; a Dark-sider is unlikely to care overmuch about taking conflict, while it is probably a concern for a Light-sider.  So if your concern stems from Dark-siders needing to suffer strain and Light-siders not having to suffer strain, that's not an issue.

Also, keep in mind that, while the distribution per side is not perfectly even, the Force die has exactly 8 white pips and 8 black pips on it, so with perfectly average rolls, two characters of opposite alignment will, over the course of twelve Force power checks, generate the same number of useable pips.  Obviously perfectly average rolling is ridiculously unlikely, so that's why we use odds :) .

 

Now, the best way to look at this problem, from a numbers perspective, is not to look at mixed results.  Calculating the odds of 2 black pips and 2 white pips is complex, and it (usually) doesn't matter.  Both characters will look at that and see 2 pips they can use.  It's easier to look SOLELY at, "What are the odds of me rolling so many pips of my color?"

So, to start, let's look at the two characters, one Light-sider and one Dark-sider, and use the following suppositions: They have Force rating 1, they refuse or are unable to use the opposite color pip, they attempt twelve checks, and they roll statistically average rolls.  Here's their results, both in percentage and number of rolls:

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 58.33% (7 rolls) | 41.67% (5 rolls)
01 | 16.57% (2 rolls) | 50.00% (6 rolls)
02 | 25.00% (3 rolls) | 08.33% (1 roll)

So in this test, the Light-sider failed to do anything with the Force 7 times, and the Dark-sider failed 5 times, for a total advantage in success rate of 16.67% to the Dark-sider.  The Light-sider got to activate an upgrade 3 times, and the Dark-sider got to activate an upgrade 1 time, for a total advantage in upgrade rate of 16.67% to the Light-sider.  It's up to you if the risk of failing completely is worth the chance of getting that single upgrade, but assuming they are roughly equal, both sides are equal, but with different "areas of expertise," as it were.  Both characters suffered 0 strain. 

Now, we have them do the same thing, but say they are always willing and able to spend a Destiny Point and suffer strain to use the other alignment's pips.  The chart is now:

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 00.00% (0 rolls) | 00.00% (0 rolls)
01 | 66.67% (8 rolls) | 66.67% (8 rolls)
02 | 33.33% (4 rolls) | 33.33% (4 rolls)

This time, they have failed an equal number of times (0), and been able to activate upgrades an equal number of times (4).  Both characters have also suffered 8 strain.  The difference here is how many destiny points they spent.  The Light-sider has spent 7 Destiny Points, while the Dark-sider has spent 5 Destiny Points.  A 16.67% advantage is Destiny Point expenditure to the Dark-sider.  The Light-sider has also gained 8 conflict; the weight of this is entirely subjective and depends on the character, so we'll treat this as a general "negative point" for the Light-sider.  Final results is that the Light-sider had to spend more Destiny Points and suffered unwanted conflict for the exact same result as a Dark-sider.

 

Okay, that's Force rating 1, let's do the same for Force rating 2.

First Test (aligned pips only):

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 34.03% (49 rolls) | 17.36% (25 rolls)
01 | 19.44% (28 rolls) | 41.67% (60 rolls)
02 | 31.94% (46 rolls) | 31.94% (46 rolls)
03 | 08.33% (12 rolls) | 08.33% (12 rolls)
04 | 06.25% (09 rolls) | 00.69% (01 roll)

Here, the Light-sider failed 49 times and the Dark-sider failed 25 times (16.67% advantage to Dark).  Light activated 97 upgrades, while Dark activated 73 upgrades (14.12% advantage Light). Notably, both characters rolled 2 useable pips and 3 useable pips the exact same amount of times.  The difference came in the rarer 4 useable pips; the cost for the Dark side's ease of use is that it occasionally falls short of the results achievable by those who follow the disciplined path.  Again, both characters suffered 0 strain.

So now for the test where the characters spend Destiny Points.  I'll dispense with the charts here (what?  Me?  Dispense with charts?  I must have been replaced with a body-snatcher!*), as they'll obviously be exactly equal at all pip-levels.  We're also going to be more discerning: the characters will only spend a Destiny Point and suffer strain if they roll fewer than 2 pips.  They need that basic power and upgrade, but they want to conserve as much as possible, so they'll make do with that minimum level.

With that in mind, the Light-sider has spent a total of 77 Destiny Points and suffered 126 strain.  The Dark-sider has spent 85 Destiny Points and suffered 110 strain.  So Light has an advantage in spending fewer Destiny Points (4.94% advantage), but suffered more strain (6.78% advantage to Dark).

 

As we get higher in Force rating, the higher number of dice coupled with the even number of pips on each die starts to sharply pull both sides into obtaining an average roll result (2/3 * FR).  The Light-sider will always fail a bit more than the Dark-sider, but also reach above the average a bit easier as well.

Hopefully this has been helpful.  As we can see, both alignments suffer strain roughly equally, and while they have different areas they excel at, both Light-siders and Dark-siders are fairly equal.  Not to toot my own horn, but I've done most of this math already in my Force Points thread, which @Daeglan has helpfully linked above.  If you have further statistics questions, I'm happy to answer them!  The important piece that I think gets lost is that both sides have the same numbers of pips on the Force die, which means over an arbitrary amount of time, they will be rolling the same number of useable Force Points.  The only thing that changes is the distribution: Light-siders tend to get their points bunched up, and Dark-siders get them spread out.  Making the Dark side easier to use consistently, but the Light-side able to make up for the inconsistency with bursts of inspiration.

* WE HAVE TAKEN THE TOGRUTA! SOON YOUR PUNY HU-MAN BODIES SHALL BE OURS!  LONG SHALL THE SQUELZAAN ASCENDANCY RULE!

EDIT:  Ah, after reading your most recent post (the one right above this one), I think I see the problem(s).  There are three main points of yours that I'll try to address:

1)  Light-side has a higher probability to get more pips.
This is entirely true.  However, if they do not want to pay a cost, they also have a higher probability to get absolutely nothing they can use.  Meaning they have to make the choice between A) Do nothing; or B) Pay a DP, suffer strain, and take conflict more often than a Dark-sider has to make the same choice.

2)  My previous charts are for the odds across an arbitrarily high number of rolls, not a single roll.
This one is more about statistics in general, but the odds of a result across a perfectly even statistical spread and the probability of that result on a single roll are exactly the same.  So while I tend to express things as an average of all possible rolls, the numbers are just as valid being used as the probability of getting the result you're looking for on a single roll.

3)  My previous charts separate results for Dark and Light side, and do not provide combined results.
This was done for multiple reasons, the two primary ones being ease of readability and because most players only really care about the odds on rolling pips their character can use with no cost.  There is a third set of charts for "grey" pips further down the thread, which gives the probability of the total number rolled regardless of color.  I'll grant you that this does lack perfect granularity, as depending on which side of the Force you are on, the strain cost you'd be paying to access all those pips will vary.  Once again, this was done to make the chart easier to read, and because I assumed that if you're spending a Destiny Point to get access to opposite-alignment pips you were planning on spending as much strain as possible anyway.  However, I can confirm that the expected strain cost will average out over a character's life time.  Dark-side results cling strongly to the average, so using them as a baseline, Light-siders will spend less for high-pip results, and spend more during the more frequent times they fail, balancing the scales.

Edited by Absol197

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Dedicated dark side users also have cheats to build up higher power levels. The Corrupted Crystal for lightsabers is a common option (red blades for dark siders is pretty common) and the Magus shows you how to really get the most from the dark side (even if it hurts a little).

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20 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

As a big fan of probability and statistics, let me see if I can help explain the most common forum position on this issue from a more math-based perspective.  Although first, I would be remis if I didn't correct an apparent misunderstanding of the rules-as-written:

--If a Dark-side Force user wants to use the white pips they rolled on a Force power check, they must flip a Destiny Point in order to do so, and then additionally suffer 1 strain per white pip they use as a Force Point.  They also suffer 1 conflict for black pip they use as a Force Point.
--If a Light-side Force user wants to use the white pips they rolled on a Force power check, they must flip a Destiny Point in order to do so, and then additionally suffer 1 strain per white pip they use as a Force Point.  They also suffer 1 conflict for black pip they use as a Force Point.

Both sides suffer strain equally for making use of the other alignment's pips.  The only difference is conflict; a Dark-sider is unlikely to care overmuch about taking conflict, while it is probably a concern for a Light-sider.  So if your concern stems from Dark-siders needing to suffer strain and Light-siders not having to suffer strain, that's not an issue.

Also, keep in mind that, while the distribution per side is not perfectly even, the Force die has exactly 8 white pips and 8 black pips on it, so with perfectly average rolls, two characters of opposite alignment will, over the course of twelve Force power checks, generate the same number of useable pips.  Obviously perfectly average rolling is ridiculously unlikely, so that's why we use odds :) .

 

Now, the best way to look at this problem, from a numbers perspective, is not to look at mixed results.  Calculating the odds of 2 black pips and 2 white pips is complex, and it (usually) doesn't matter.  Both characters will look at that and see 2 pips they can use.  It's easier to look SOLELY at, "What are the odds of me rolling so many pips of my color?"

So, to start, let's look at the two characters, one Light-sider and one Dark-sider, and use the following suppositions: They have Force rating 1, they refuse or are unable to use the opposite color pip, they attempt twelve checks, and they roll statistically average rolls.  Here's their results, both in percentage and number of rolls:

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 58.33% (7 rolls) | 41.67% (5 rolls)
01 | 16.57% (2 rolls) | 50.00% (6 rolls)
02 | 25.00% (3 rolls) | 08.33% (1 roll)

So in this test, the Light-sider failed to do anything with the Force 7 times, and the Dark-sider failed 5 times, for a total advantage in success rate of 16.67% to the Dar-sider.  The Light-sider got to activate an upgrade 3 times, and the Dark-sider got to activate an upgrade 1 time, for a total advantage in upgrade rate of 16.67% to the Light-sider.  It's up to you if the risk of failing completely it worth the chance of getting that single upgrade, but assuming they are roughly equal, both sides are equal, but with different "areas of expertise," as it were.  Both characters suffered 0 strain. 

Now, we have them do the same thing, but say they are always willing and able to spend a Destiny Point and suffer strain to use the other alignment's pips.  The chart is now:

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 00.00% (0 rolls) | 00.00% (0 rolls)
01 | 66.67% (8 rolls) | 66.67% (8 rolls)
02 | 33.33% (4 rolls) | 33.33% (4 rolls)

This time, they have failed an equal number of times (0), and been able to activate upgrades an equal number of times (4).  Both characters have also suffered 8 strain.  The difference here is how many destiny points they spent.  The Light-sider has spent 7 Destiny Points, while the Dark-sider has spent 5 Destiny Points.  A 16.67% advantage is Destiny Point expenditure to the Dark-sider.  The Light-sider has also gained 8 conflict; the weight of this is entirely subjective and depends on the character, so we'll treat this as a general "negative point" for the Light-sider.  Final results is that the Light-sider had to spend more Destiny Points and suffered unwanted conflict for the exact same result as a Dark-sider.

 

Okay, that's Force rating 1, let's do the same for Force rating 2.

First Test (aligned pips only):

Pips | Light | Dark
00 | 34.03% (49 rolls) | 17.36% (25 rolls)
01 | 19.44% (28 rolls) | 41.67% (60 rolls)
02 | 31.94% (46 rolls) | 31.94% (46 rolls)
03 | 08.33% (12 rolls) | 08.33% (12 rolls)
04 | 06.25% (09 rolls) | 00.69% (01 roll)

Here, the Light-sider failed 49 times and the Dark-sider failed 25 times (16.67% advantage to Dark).  Light activated 97 upgrades, while Dark activated 73 upgrades (14.12% advantage Light). Notably, both characters rolled 2 useable pips and 3 useable pips the exact same amount of times.  The difference came in the rarer 4 useable pips; the cost for the Dark side's ease of use is that it occasionally falls short of the results achievable by those who follow the disciplined path.  Again, both characters suffered 0 strain.

So now for the test where the characters spend Destiny Points.  I'll dispense with the charts here (what?  Me?  Dispense with charts?  I must have been replaced with a body-snatcher!*), as they'll obviously be exactly equal at all pip-levels.  We're also going to be more discerning: the characters will only spend a Destiny Point and suffer strain if they roll fewer than 2 pips.  They need that basic power and upgrade, but they want to conserve as much as possible, so they'll make do with that minimum level.

With that in mind, the Light-sider has spent a total of 77 Destiny Points and suffered 126 strain.  The Dark-sider has spent 85 Destiny Points and suffered 110 strain.  So Light has an advantage in spending fewer Destiny Points (4.94% advantage), but suffered more strain (6.78% advantage to Dark).

 

As we get higher in Force rating, the higher number of dice coupled with the even number of pips on each die starts to sharply pull both sides into obtaining an average roll result (2/3 * FR).  The Light-sider will always fail a bit more than the Dark-sider, but also reach above the average a bit easier as well.

Hopefully this has been helpful.  As we can see, both alignments suffer strain roughly equally, and while they have different areas they excel at, both Light-siders and Dark-siders are fairly equal.  Not to toot my own horn, but I've done most of this math already in my Force Points thread, which @Daeglan has helpfully linked above.  If you have further statistics questions, I'm happy to answer them!  The important piece that I think gets lost is that both sides have the same numbers of pips on the Force die, which means over an arbitrary amount of time, they will be rolling the same number of useable Force Points.  The only thing that changes is the distribution: Light-siders tend to get their points bunched up, and Dark-siders get them spread out.  Making the Dark side easier to use consistently, but the Light-side able to make up for the inconsistency with bursts of inspiration.

* WE HAVE TAKEN THE TOGRUTA! SOON YOUR PUNY HU-MAN BODIES SHALL BE OURS!  LONG SHALL THE SQUELZAAN ASCENDANCY RULE!

EDIT:  Ah, after reading your most recent post (the one right above this one), I think I see the problem(s).  There are three main points of yours that I'll try to address:

1)  Light-side has a higher probability to get more pips.
This is entirely true.  However, if they do not want to pay a cost, they also have a higher probability to get absolutely nothing they can use.  Meaning they have to make the choice between A) Do nothing; or B) Pay a DP, suffer strain, and take conflict more often than a Dark-sider has to make the same choice.

2)  My previous charts are for the odds across an arbitrarily high number of rolls, not a single roll.
This one is more about statistics in general, but the odds of a result across a perfectly even statistical spread and the probability of that result on a single roll are exactly the same.  So while I tend to express things as an average of all possible rolls, the numbers are just as valid being used as the probability of getting the result you're looking for on a single roll.

3)  My previous charts separate results for Dark and Light side, and do not provide combined results.
This was done for multiple reasons, the two primary ones being ease of readability and because most players only really care about the odds on rolling pips their character can use with no cost.  There is a third set of charts for "grey" pips further down the thread, which gives the probability of the total number rolled regardless of color.  I'll grant you that this does lack perfect granularity, as depending on which side of the Force you are on, the strain cost you'd be paying to access all those pips will vary.  Once again, this was done to make the chart easier to read, and because I assumed that if you're spending a Destiny Point to get access to opposite-alignment pips you were planning on spending as much strain as possible anyway.  However, I can confirm that the expected strain cost will average out over a character's life time.  Dark-side results cling strongly to the average, so using them as a baseline, Light-siders will spend less for high-pip results, and spend more during the more frequent times they fail, balancing the scales.

Thank you

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