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InfinityIncarnate

Grey Jedi / Grey Force User Rules - What do you think?

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone.

As I've been allowed to play a grey jedi / force user, I thought it was important to use some rules that doesn't allow for "free" force points, and the various homebrew rules that have been suggested and people have used, are perceived by many to be a bit broken as they allow the player to always be able to generate force points, which is a problem balance-wise. But the problem is that the dice system and force system hasn't been designed with this in mind which in my opinion is what creates this problem. The morality and conflict system won't have an issue with handling this. It seems there aren't that many ways to solve this, and one the ways I think it can be solved, is to use the following rules.

Grey Jedi / Grey Force User - The more general definition.

A grey jedi / grey force user, is essentially a force user who uses both the light and dark side of the force, one who follows his or her own path, with it's own set of principle, ethics and morals, and will often use a code very similar to that jedi and dark jedi/sith.
The code in question is usually something in between the two. For the grey jedi or force user, it's the intent and justification of using the force that matters.

Inner conflict between light and dark is what maintains the balance, and the balance is very important for the grey jedi/ grey force user, as going too far from his/her own grey path of moral ambiguity, will mentally strain the force user when attempting to use the force, and if too far, then it will become more difficult to access and use the force. In other words, the internal struggle is the key to the balance.

On the a fundamental level it requires more will and discipline to be able to wield both the light and dark side of the force at the same time, even when being seperated.
You are strongest when in balance but weaken as you are pulled to one side and being too close to either side weakens you further - the rules below reflects this.


When at or between 1-100 morality the force user must successfully commit force points to power the force power in question.
When at or between 30-70 morality - the force user can use both LS/DS without using strain and destiny points
When at or between 45-55 morality, +1Wound Threshold (WT) and Strain Threshold (ST).
When at or between 30-44 morality, +1 WT, At 56-70 morality, +1 ST.
When under 30 or 70 above morality, must flip DP to use Light Side (LS) and DS respectively, with regards to which side the force user is most at.
When under 20 suffer -1WT penalty and -2WT when under 10.
When above 80 suffer -1ST penalty and -2ST when over 90.

Note: To successfully commit force points, the same amount of force points to be committed, must be scored as successes on a willpower or discipline check, using discipline if the user has it.

Another mechanic that could be added, would be force alignment:
Whenever points force points are committed, the morality score is immediately adjusted!

The issue with players always being ensured automatic force points, I think resolving it by using a willpower / discipline check, is a more elegant way of solving the issue.
This system, seems good at rewarding and reinforcing balance and punishes imbalance. Should work for any Balance centric Force traditions.
The only real drawback of the system, is that you have to do more dice rolls, however it also opens up a completely new avenue.

Because consider what happens if the willpower or discipline check fails, not just having zero succesess in total, but actually getting a failed roll, and with it being an ability or skill check, it's possible to also assign bonus, setback, difficulty and challenge dices.
Although, I think adding additional dices should be carefully considered before adding to the check as it could potentially make it much more difficult or maybe too easy. But definitely something that opens some interesting territory, at least in my opinion.

Example - I assume the use of other dice than ability, force and proficiency dice, in this example.
Justin Case, young Jedi Consular Sage, with a willpower score of 3 and a discipline score of 1, and a force rating of 2. Has now gone on the path of the grey jedi.
He's in a tight situation where he needs to move two very large rocks, combined silhouette size of 1, luckily he has his force move upgraded a bit, so he just needs 3 force points.
He rolls: 2 light side and 2 two dark side  - he only needs three of the points.
As he has discipline, he rolls 2 ability dice and 1 proficiency dice - he scored 4 successes and 1 advantage. As the GM has ruled it's a difficult situation, and have assigned 1 difficulty dice, which comes out as 1 failure and one threat, negating 1 success and 1 advantage. So his final score is 3 success, just enough to make him able to use his force power. However, as there are two of each sided force points, he needs to choose which points to use. As he's helping some people escape from a collapsed cave, it seems fitting that he goes with more light than dark.

I really need some constructive feedback on this one, as I want to make it fair, interesting and at least somewhat balanced. Hopefully, others could use this as well.

What do you guys think?

//Inc.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate
Corrected topic!

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On 5/23/2019 at 2:29 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

Hello everyone.

As I've been allowed to play a grey jedi / force user, I thought it was important to use some rules that doesn't allow for "free" force points, and the various homebrew rules that have been suggested and people have used, are perceived by many to be a bit broken as they allow the player to always be able to generate force points, which is a problem balance-wise. But the problem is that the dice system and force system hasn't been designed with this in mind which in my opinion is what creates this problem. The morality and conflict system won't have an issue with handling this. It seems there aren't that many ways to solve this, and one the ways I think it can be solved, is to use the following rules.

Grey Jedi / Grey Force User - The more general definition.

A grey jedi / grey force user, is essentially a force user who uses both the light and dark side of the force, one who follows his or her own path, with it's own set of principle, ethics and morals, and will often use a code very similar to that jedi and dark jedi/sith.
The code in question is usually something in between the two. For the grey jedi or force user, it's the intent and justification of using the force that matters.

Inner conflict between light and dark is what maintains the balance, and the balance is very important for the grey jedi/ grey force user, as going too far from his/her own grey path of moral ambiguity, will mentally strain the force user when attempting to use the force, and if too far, then it will become more difficult to access and use the force. In other words, the internal struggle is the key to the balance.

On the a fundamental level it requires more will and discipline to be able to wield both the light and dark side of the force at the same time, even when being seperated.
You are strongest when in balance but weaken as you are pulled to one side and being too close to either side weakens you further - the rules below reflects this.


When at or between 1-100 morality the force user must successfully commit force points to power the force power in question.
When at or between 30-70 morality - the force user can use both LS/DS without using strain and destiny points
When at or between 45-55 morality, +1Wound Threshold (WT) and Strain Threshold (ST).
When at or between 30-44 morality, +1 WT, At 56-70 morality, +1 ST.
When under 30 or 70 above morality, must flip DP to use Light Side (LS) and DS respectively, with regards to which side the force user is most at.
When under 20 suffer -1WT penalty and -2WT when under 10.
When above 80 suffer -1ST penalty and -2ST when over 90.

Note: To successfully commit force points, the same amount of force points to be committed, must be scored as successes on a willpower or discipline check, using discipline if the user has it.

Another mechanic that could be added, would be force alignment:
Whenever points force points are committed, the morality score is immediately adjusted!

The issue with players always being ensured automatic force points, I think resolving it by using a willpower / discipline check, is a more elegant way of solving the issue.
This system, seems good at rewarding and reinforcing balance and punishes imbalance. Should work for any Balance centric Force traditions.
The only real drawback of the system, is that you have to do more dice rolls, however it also opens up a completely new avenue.

Because consider what happens if the willpower or discipline check fails, not just having zero succesess in total, but actually getting a failed roll, and with it being an ability or skill check, it's possible to also assign bonus, setback, difficulty and challenge dices.
Although, I think adding additional dices should be carefully considered before adding to the check as it could potentially make it much more difficult or maybe too easy. But definitely something that opens some interesting territory, at least in my opinion.

Example - I assume the use of other dice than ability, force and proficiency dice, in this example.
Justin Case, young Jedi Consular Sage, with a willpower score of 3 and a discipline score of 1, and a force rating of 2. Has now gone on the path of the grey jedi.
He's in a tight situation where he needs to move two very large rocks, combined silhouette size of 1, luckily he has his force move upgraded a bit, so he just needs 3 force points.
He rolls: 2 light side and 2 two dark side  - he only needs three of the points.
As he has discipline, he rolls 2 ability dice and 1 proficiency dice - he scored 4 successes and 1 advantage. As the GM has ruled it's a difficult situation, and have assigned 1 difficulty dice, which comes out as 1 failure and one threat, negating 1 success and 1 advantage. So his final score is 3 success, just enough to make him able to use his force power. However, as there are two of each sided force points, he needs to choose which points to use. As he's helping some people escape from a collapsed cave, it seems fitting that he goes with more light than dark.

I really need some constructive feedback on this one, as I want to make it fair, interesting and at least somewhat balanced. Hopefully, others could use this as well.

What do you guys think?

//Inc.

There dont need to be special rules. All a "Gray Jedi" is is someone willing to used the dark side on occasion.  Basically just stay between 30 and 70 Morallity and you are done.

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Don't pick a side.  Don't get a prize.

 

I personally dislike the concept of Grey Force users getting any bonuses.  No penalty is your bonus.  

 

I also HATE the name Grey Jedi.  Jedi are Lightside Force Users. Therefore if you claim to be Grey and follow a different code you are no longer a Jedi. 

 

Now if a player wishes to follow the path of redemption, and can get too and from Darkside / Lightside (like Revan/Vader if he had Lived, and I'm sure some other I don't know or cant think of) I may give bonuses to the player.   But that should be the exception and to reward their hard fought roleplaying ( and I would make it hard, but I learned form the harshest killer GMs 

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Oh joy, another broketastic way of gaming the system with claims of being "grey" or "in the middle" 🙄

So short version, the whole notion of a "grey Jedi" is flawed, as it generally revolves around a way of allowing a PC to make use of dark side effects without paying whatever cost the system normally has for doing so.

in this system, a "grey" Jedi is someone whose Morality is between 29 and 71, as they haven't chosen a side as it were, and while they don't get any perks for it, they also don't suffer any immediate penalties.  Being a Light Side Paragon is generally positive, but it means that provided the GM and player are doing their jobs in engaging with the Morality/Conflict mechanic (something that is rarer than it should be), then those characters should be very wary of accruing too much Conflict lest they lose their Paragon status.  Conversely, a dark sider gets more wounds and can more freely use those dark side pips, but pay costs in terms one less Destiny Point at session's start and a reduced strain threshold.

Here's the main thing that makes this proposed house rule broken, is that it's incredibly easy for a PC to stay within the mid-range, so most PCs under this proposal are going to be able to freely use Force points of either type and enjoy a boost to both wound and strain thresholds.  Generally speaking, if a PC earns around 5 Conflict per session, then their Morality score isn't really going to shift all that much from its starting point, again making it very easy to game this to stay in that sweet spot and enjoy all sorts of benefits.

Truthfully, if the official Morality/Conflict rules are so distasteful, then I'd suggest taking the far less game-breaking route and simply not use them.  I'd suggest keeping the Emotional Strength and Weakness as those make for good role-playing tools, but otherwise dispense with Morality scores, and go with how EotE and AoR handles Force usage, in that the PC is presumed to be "light side" (as most Force users are) and thus have to suffer strain and spend a Destiny Point in order to make use of dark side pips.

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Honestly, there's no real reason to codify it.   If you want your pc's to be edgy and "Grey" just suffer the strain and flip those points, and take the consequences.   The story is more compelling and frankly more in line with how the force works.  The dark side should be compelling and quick/easy to dip into when the character chooses to.   Most of the most epic stories at my table are from those times when the force user gives into the dark urges, whether for expediency's sake, or because they're just that pissed, and coming to terms with it later.    Had a PC take a 35 pt morality hit, but it was totally in character for it to happen, and the PC struggled with the after effect for a long time.    

Ultimately do what you want, as it's your game.   I personally don't feel any need for extra rules for it. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The whole ‘Grey Jedi’ conversation brings Dooku: Jedi Lost to mind. Didn’t work out to well for him. Anakin either. Of course, there’s Quinlan Vos, but like the others, it didn’t really go to well for him either. The more you use the dark side the more it compels you to use it. Giving into it is indeed a slippery slope. 

Canonically speaking, using both aspects of the force doesn’t lead to a balance, just an inevitable fall to the dark side. Anakin, and Vos to a degree, show that you can be redeemed in the force’s metaphorical eyes, but only through the complete rejection of the dark side. And, that doesn’t really reflect the idea of a ‘Grey Jedi’ that walks the line between light and dark. 

Not saying that a character couldn’t believe that a balance between the light and the dark is possible. Dooku tried. But, like Dooku, it won’t end particularly well; assuming they don’t want to go dark side, that is. Could be fun role-play though. 

But, ehh... I’m rambling a bit I fear. If you want to give it a go at your table, go for it, but it’ll introduce balance issues like the others have mentioned. 

Edit: Anyhow, welcome to the forum.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, samuraisolomon said:

I also HATE the name Grey Jedi.  Jedi are Lightside Force Users. Therefore if you claim to be Grey and follow a different code you are no longer a Jedi.

Thats very far from true though, because there is such a thing as a dark jedi, which is a jedi thats has gone to the dark side, but that doesn't mean they don't follow or at least try to follow the jedi code. Dark jedi and sith, are not the same! There are grey jedis and grey force users, but what exactly a grey jedi or grey force user is, depends on the perception and definitions on that matter, and there happens to be that there are several different ones, which by the way does not exclude each other. Did you happen to notice, that I weren't talking about just grey jedis but also grey force users? There was a reason for that. To avoid this nonsense. I was particularly interested in getting feedback about what I suggested, not debate what a grey jedi or grey force user is.
 

2 hours ago, Raicheck said:

Honestly, there's no real reason to codify it.   If you want your pc's to be edgy and "Grey" just suffer the strain and flip those points, and take the consequences.   The story is more compelling and frankly more in line with how the force works.  The dark side should be compelling and quick/easy to dip into when the character chooses to.   Most of the most epic stories at my table are from those times when the force user gives into the dark urges, whether for expediency's sake, or because they're just that pissed, and coming to terms with it later.    Had a PC take a 35 pt morality hit, but it was totally in character for it to happen, and the PC struggled with the after effect for a long time.    

Ultimately do what you want, as it's your game.   I personally don't feel any need for extra rules for it. 

 

 

Personally, I find the whole "flip a destiny point to use the opposite point" very broken, because it's a party resource, where the choice to use the destiny point is a personal choice and could be for personal reasons, and the force point distribution spread on the dice is rigged towards rolling more dark side than light. Why? Because it may be that when you count the amount of opposite points that there are an equal amount, but not an equal amount per side, which means you're more likely to roll dark side points, which forces you into more situations where you have to choose to spend a destiny point or fail the check. This also means that if you're a dark side user, you actually get punished for it in more ways, like for instance because of the point distribution being this way, you actually need a higher force rating as a dark side user to be able to reliably get same amount of points you could roll as a light side, second, the party gets screwed over by the dark side destiny points being turned over to the GM just because one is a dark side user - to me this seems like they want people to play light side users, and punish if you ever go dark side - which is just wrong in my opinion, as people aren't always playing the heroes. Furthermore, flipping the destiny point to be able to use opposite force points from a roll, is not even central to the mechanics of morality and conflict. I can see the reason for the strain and conflict, but not the destiny point mechanic. If anything, players should've been able to use both points types of force points but if they did, they would be gaining sided conflict, respectively light and dark sided conflict.
 

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

in this system, a "grey" Jedi is someone whose Morality is between 29 and 71, as they haven't chosen a side as it were, and while they don't get any perks for it, they also don't suffer any immediate penalties.  Being a Light Side Paragon is generally positive, but it means that provided the GM and player are doing their jobs in engaging with the Morality/Conflict mechanic (something that is rarer than it should be), then those characters should be very wary of accruing too much Conflict lest they lose their Paragon status.  Conversely, a dark sider gets more wounds and can more freely use those dark side pips, but pay costs in terms one less Destiny Point at session's start and a reduced strain threshold.

I guess you didn't notice, they actually do suffer a passive penalty which will remain in place unless they decide to become a light or dark side user specifically (meaning they pick a side and stop being grey), which is they actually have to roll a willpower or discipline check to see how many force points they can commit, which easily could be NONE.  I don't see how this is broken, because it deals with the issue of the user always being able to generate usable points. And as mentioned, with it being an ability or a skill roll, the gm could assign setback, difficulty or challenge if the situation would call for it, and could even flip a destiny point to upgrade the difficulty. So, yes there most certainly is a penalty and a drawback for being grey, despite one being able to more easily draw upon both sides of the force, it's less realiable. Because even with more force rating, which under normal circumstances would make it easier to get the force points and thus succeed, wouldn't make it any easier to succeed with this, as it also relies on willpower and/or displine. Which in fact means, that you actually need to spend more xp to to be more reliable in the force, much more than the usual. This is because that the probability of success only would rise from increasing willpower and discipline. And as one after character creation can only raise attributes through dedication, it means it will be a very long and costly process.

As far as I know, the probability of getting at least ONE success on an ability dice is 50%, getting two on one is 12.5%. On a proficience dice, the probability of at least one success is 66,6& as the triumph also  counts as a success, getting at least two successes on one dice is 16.6%, and getting at least two successes from two dices is 66,6%. So as you can see, even when you score points thats you need, it's possible that can't even use them or that you can't quite get to do what you wanted with the force power, because of not being able to commit enough. Even with the maximum amount of dices availaible, you could still completely fail, unlikely but possible.

In regards to the bonuses/penalties, they're based off those that you normally would get when at or between certain thresholds, but more centric and thematically in line with the grey force user being in balance between the two, and those bonuses and penalties aren't cumulative, but static modifications when at or between the mentioned thresholds. I'd also like to point out that what I was suggesting with the force alignment, is intended to make it more difficult to remain balanced between the two, and it could be modified so thats it's less predictable, like rolling 1d4 per sided force point used, where each respectively would pull in their direction of morality. The random nature of this would make it more difficult to predict. It could also be resolved after each session just before conflict is resolved, where one will roll a dice for each side, add the total amount of light side and dark side points spent on either side respectively, substract the two results from each other, the adjust the morality score accordingly, then resolve conflict as normal. So say one who had spent 5 light and 3 dark, rolled a 2 for light and a 9 for dark, then it would be 7  vs. 12, which would decrease the morality by 5, then on top what ever the conflict adjusts it with. Call it a struggle of balance - which is exactly what the grey jedis / force users do, struggle with internal conflict. I think this would make it more difficult to stay in balance.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Thats very far from true though, because there is such a thing as a dark jedi, which is a jedi thats has gone to the dark side, but that doesn't mean they don't follow or at least try to follow the jedi code. Dark jedi and sith, are not the same! There are grey jedis and grey force users, but what exactly a grey jedi or grey force user is, depends on the perception and definitions on that matter, and there happens to be that there are several different ones, which by the way does not exclude each other. Did you happen to notice, that I weren't talking about just grey jedis but also grey force users? There was a reason for that. To avoid this nonsense. I was particularly interested in getting feedback about what I suggested, not debate what a grey jedi or grey force user is.
 

Personally, I find the whole "flip a destiny point to use the opposite point" very broken, because it's a party resource, where the choice to use the destiny point is a personal choice and could be for personal reasons, and the force point distribution spread on the dice is rigged towards rolling more dark side than light. Why? Because it may be that when you count the amount of opposite points that there are an equal amount, but not an equal amount per side, which means you're more likely to roll dark side points, which forces you into more situations where you have to choose to spend a destiny point or fail the check. This also means that if you're a dark side user, you actually get punished for it in more ways, like for instance because of the point distribution being this way, you actually need a higher force rating as a dark side user to be able to reliably get same amount of points you could roll as a light side, second, the party gets screwed over by the dark side destiny points being turned over to the GM just because one is a dark side user - to me this seems like they want people to play light side users, and punish if you ever go dark side - which is just wrong in my opinion, as people aren't always playing the heroes. Furthermore, flipping the destiny point to be able to use opposite force points from a roll, is not even central to the mechanics of morality and conflict. I can see the reason for the strain and conflict, but not the destiny point mechanic. If anything, players should've been able to use both points types of force points but if they did, they would be gaining sided conflict, respectively light and dark sided conflict.
 

I guess you didn't notice, they actually do suffer a passive penalty which will remain in place unless they decide to become a light or dark side user specifically (meaning they pick a side and stop being grey), which is they actually have to roll a willpower or discipline check to see how many force points they can commit, which easily could be NONE.  I don't see how this is broken, because it deals with the issue of the user always being able to generate usable points. And as mentioned, with it being an ability or a skill roll, the gm could assign setback, difficulty or challenge if the situation would call for it, and could even flip a destiny point to upgrade the difficulty. So, yes there most certainly is a penalty and a drawback for being grey, despite one being able to more easily draw upon both sides of the force, it's less realiable. Because even with more force rating, which under normal circumstances would make it easier to get the force points and thus succeed, wouldn't make it any easier to succeed with this, as it also relies on willpower and/or displine. Which in fact means, that you actually need to spend more xp to to be more reliable in the force, much more than the usual. This is because that the probability of success only would rise from increasing willpower and discipline. And as one after character creation can only raise attributes through dedication, it means it will be a very long and costly process.

As far as I know, the probability of getting at least ONE success on an ability dice is 50%, getting two on one is 12.5%. On a proficience dice, the probability of at least one success is 66,6& as the triumph also  counts as a success, getting at least two successes on one dice is 16.6%, and getting at least two successes from two dices is 66,6%. So as you can see, even when you score points thats you need, it's possible that can't even use them or that you can't quite get to do what you wanted with the force power, because of not being able to commit enough. Even with the maximum amount of dices availaible, you could still completely fail, unlikely but possible.

In regards to the bonuses/penalties, they're based off those that you normally would get when at or between certain thresholds, but more centric and thematically in line with the grey force user being in balance between the two, and those bonuses and penalties aren't cumulative, but static modifications when at or between the mentioned thresholds. I'd also like to point out that what I was suggesting with the force alignment, is intended to make it more difficult to remain balanced between the two, and it could be modified so thats it's less predictable, like rolling 1d4 per sided force point used, where each respectively would pull in their direction of morality. The random nature of this would make it more difficult to predict. It could also be resolved after each session just before conflict is resolved, where one will roll a dice for each side, add the total amount of light side and dark side points spent on either side respectively, substract the two results from each other, the adjust the morality score accordingly, then resolve conflict as normal. So say one who had spent 5 light and 3 dark, rolled a 2 for light and a 9 for dark, then it would be 7  vs. 12, which would decrease the morality by 5, then on top what ever the conflict adjusts it with. Call it a struggle of balance - which is exactly what the grey jedis / force users do, struggle with internal conflict. I think this would make it more difficult to stay in balance.

Yes it is a party resource. Which you can use to use darkside pips.  Your plan is super broken. And there is a struggle in this game already. You want to remain in the middle then work to. 

All the grey jedi concept is i want to use dark sidw stuff without a penalty. Well that is not star wats. Every one who tries eventually falls.

Edited by Daeglan

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Yes it is a party resource. Which you can use to use darkside pips.  Your plan is super broken. And there is a struggle in this game already. You want to remain in the middle then work to. 

All the grey jedi concept is i want to use dark sidw stuff without a penalty. Well that is not star wats. Every one who tries eventually falls.

So tell me, where exactly do you see in what I have suggested, that there are no penalties and it's all about getting to use both sides with no penalty? 

Because to me, there most are penalties and drawbacks, and it's not "just" to be able to use both sides with no consequences, it's about the struggle to stay balanced. I don't if you've missed it, but having to roll a willpower/discipline check to see how many of the sided force points generated can be committed, most certainly is a major drawback and penalty, as it can make one not be able to use the light sided as well as the dark sided force points generated. And a major consequence from that is that one needs to spend much more xp for it to be more reliable, and just raising FR isn't enough, willpower and discipline needs to be raised too, and even then it can still fail.

To me it seems you are getting way too caught up on the "grey jedis just want to use the dark side with no consequences", because that is very far from what I'm trying to do with this, in fact that is what I'm trying to do with this. 

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15 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

To me it seems you are getting way too caught up on the "grey jedis just want to use the dark side with no consequences", because that is very far from what I'm trying to do with this, in fact that is what I'm trying to do with this. 

While it's not your intent, looked at from an outsider's perspective by folks that are pretty familiar with the system, that ultimately is what you're trying to do, while adding extra degrees of unnecessary complication in the process.  And as others have said, there's nothing in the lore to support that being "grey" actually has any benefit.  Back when the prequels came out, this line of thinking, of being "grey" was called the Potentium Heresy, and even they skewed more towards the "light" with the main difference in their view of the Force being that the dark side was internal only and not part of the Force (which has been shown to be incorrect, and thus why the "Heresy" label was added.)

Plus, the very fact you opened with "I created this for my character" is a huge red flag that you have a vested interest in skewing this to better favor your character than creating something that's actually balanced.  Many a bad homebrewed game mechanic have sprung from the notion, well-intended or not, of making something cool for a specific character.  I've been creating homebrew material for various RPGs for the better part of three decades now, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that creating stuff to directly benefit a character I'm playing rarely has a beneficial outcome for the game that character's in.

As for bonuses, I suggest you re-read what you posted.  Under your proposed system, being exactly in the middle (something that's fairly easy to achieve) provides a boost to wound threshold and strain threshold and the freedom to use light pips and dark pips as the player desires without either of the major costs (strain or destiny point) that the default system requires, which in turn makes them more powerful overall.

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4 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Thats very far from true though, because there is such a thing as a dark jedi, which is a jedi thats has gone to the dark side, but that doesn't mean they don't follow or at least try to follow the jedi code. Dark jedi and sith, are not the same! There are grey jedis and grey force users, but what exactly a grey jedi or grey force user is, depends on the perception and definitions on that matter, and there happens to be that there are several different ones, which by the way does not exclude each other. Did you happen to notice, that I weren't talking about just grey jedis but also grey force users? There was a reason for that. To avoid this nonsense. I was particularly interested in getting feedback about what I suggested, not debate what a grey jedi or grey force user is.
 

 

 

I did notice that. That's why the first thing I addressed is that I think no bonus or penalty for middle Morality is exactly what you should get.  

 

And you can skip the rest of this post as it is all debate points about proper nomenclature of Force Users...

 

 

Now Dark Jedi.  As I understand, it is originally from KOTOR and if I remember correctly was a layman's term to refer to any Darkside Force user, especially Fallen Jedi that had joined the Sith.  So in thoses instances I think Fallen Jedi is much better a term. 

 

Jedi and Sith are religions.  They have tenants, rules, creeds, etc.  If you fail in following those rules all the time you may not get kicked out of the order or even in any trouble.  But when you change the Rules you live by, you are no longer part of that religion.  

Examples:  Ahsoka makes it overly clear in Rebels she is no Jedi but she stayed a Lightside Force user.  Qui-Gon did some morally grey stuff bending the expectations of the rules but never strayed into the Darkside (in current canon) and his Conflict would seem to keep him in middle Morality (otherwise he might have had enough WT to beat Maul hahahha). And while his reputation in the order suffered (some would say the opposite), he never crossed the line enough to get kicked out.

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6 hours ago, samuraisolomon said:

 

I did notice that. That's why the first thing I addressed is that I think no bonus or penalty for middle Morality is exactly what you should get.  

 

And you can skip the rest of this post as it is all debate points about proper nomenclature of Force Users...

 

 

Now Dark Jedi.  As I understand, it is originally from KOTOR and if I remember correctly was a layman's term to refer to any Darkside Force user, especially Fallen Jedi that had joined the Sith.  So in thoses instances I think Fallen Jedi is much better a term. 

 

Jedi and Sith are religions.  They have tenants, rules, creeds, etc.  If you fail in following those rules all the time you may not get kicked out of the order or even in any trouble.  But when you change the Rules you live by, you are no longer part of that religion.  

Examples:  Ahsoka makes it overly clear in Rebels she is no Jedi but she stayed a Lightside Force user.  Qui-Gon did some morally grey stuff bending the expectations of the rules but never strayed into the Darkside (in current canon) and his Conflict would seem to keep him in middle Morality (otherwise he might have had enough WT to beat Maul hahahha). And while his reputation in the order suffered (some would say the opposite), he never crossed the line enough to get kicked out.

Dark Jedi is a.term from WEG because to WEG force user and Jedi were synonymous. That has since been shown to be inaccurate. A Jedi is a follower of the jedi philosophy. A dark jedi is more of a fallen jedi. And gray jedi is pretty much nonsense since they dont follow the Jedi philosophy. 

There are other force traditions and we do have rules for them in Disciples of Harmony.

Edited by Daeglan

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10 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Personally, I find the whole "flip a destiny point to use the opposite point" very broken, because it's a party resource, where the choice to use the destiny point is a personal choice and could be for personal reasons, and the force point distribution spread on the dice is rigged towards rolling more dark side than light. Why? Because it may be that when you count the amount of opposite points that there are an equal amount, but not an equal amount per side, which means you're more likely to roll dark side points, which forces you into more situations where you have to choose to spend a destiny point or fail the check. This also means that if you're a dark side user, you actually get punished for it in more ways, like for instance because of the point distribution being this way, you actually need a higher force rating as a dark side user to be able to reliably get same amount of points you could roll as a light side, second, the party gets screwed over by the dark side destiny points being turned over to the GM just because one is a dark side user - to me this seems like they want people to play light side users, and punish if you ever go dark side - which is just wrong in my opinion, as people aren't always playing the heroes. Furthermore, flipping the destiny point to be able to use opposite force points from a roll, is not even central to the mechanics of morality and conflict. I can see the reason for the strain and conflict, but not the destiny point mechanic. If anything, players should've been able to use both points types of force points but if they did, they would be gaining sided conflict, respectively light and dark sided conflict.
 

Then remove the destiny point flip.  That's what I did for my force & destiny campaign I'm currently running, as I wanted the dark side to be even more tempting.   Temptation, moral quandaries, and consequences are a hallmark of my games, and this one is focused on those themes even more so. 

 

The PC's in my game are fairly deep xp wise, but the two most powerful are the magus and the consular.  Both have high force ratings, but the Magus is capable of putting out more raw force than any other PC in the game, though it's almost all dark side points.   He often chooses not to, as the PC is worried about falling too far to the Dark sides  influence.  However, he has "slipped" when pressed and dropped enough force points to power his harm power to wipe out a very large group of NPC's.     The consular has a big hammer (maxed out move)  and has the force rating to consistently pull it off.  

 

  As for the destiny point being a party resource that the force user is using.   Nothing is preventing the force user from trying each round to use their spiffy powers.   Second, destiny points should be a constantly changing pool, where there's a good deal of back and forth during tense scenes.     

  I also like that the force setting is neutral, as there is no penalty for going light or dark, other than the inbuilt morality benefits/penalties for having high or low morality.   There is nothing stopping a PC from embracing the dark side, or the light side, though it's been my experience that PC's tend to drift towards higher morality as a default due to their actions most of the time.   It seems to be a player thing, as a lot of my players tend to consider the impact their actions before they act.   It's not always the case, but it happens.   

Ultimately, my main objection to your rules is that the middle path gets all of the benefits, and none of the penalties.  Which, given the default at which most force users start, makes it inordinately powerful, and a mandatory choice for anyone choosing to optimize their PC, which means I'd never allow it. 

Anywho, that's my experience.   Good luck, good gaming. 

 

Edited by Raicheck

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Agree that flipping a Destiny Point just to use pips is really silly. If this seems overpowered to you, attach a 1 or 2 strain cost to activating any Force Power (and still spend 1 strain per dark point flipped).

I also think Conflict should be attached to actual powers (harm, unleash, choke) and what they do, rather than every time you flip a pip, but that's just a quibble with the Morality system.

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12 hours ago, samuraisolomon said:

 

I did notice that. That's why the first thing I addressed is that I think no bonus or penalty for middle Morality is exactly what you should get.  

 

And you can skip the rest of this post as it is all debate points about proper nomenclature of Force Users...

 

 

Now Dark Jedi.  As I understand, it is originally from KOTOR and if I remember correctly was a layman's term to refer to any Darkside Force user, especially Fallen Jedi that had joined the Sith.  So in thoses instances I think Fallen Jedi is much better a term. 

 

Jedi and Sith are religions.  They have tenants, rules, creeds, etc.  If you fail in following those rules all the time you may not get kicked out of the order or even in any trouble.  But when you change the Rules you live by, you are no longer part of that religion.  

Examples:  Ahsoka makes it overly clear in Rebels she is no Jedi but she stayed a Lightside Force user.  Qui-Gon did some morally grey stuff bending the expectations of the rules but never strayed into the Darkside (in current canon) and his Conflict would seem to keep him in middle Morality (otherwise he might have had enough WT to beat Maul hahahha). And while his reputation in the order suffered (some would say the opposite), he never crossed the line enough to get kicked out.

Qui Gon was Not morally grey, he was as Light Side as you could get. While he may have been a “Maverick”, his “conflict” was with the Council’s overly dogmatic views; it was not a conflict of making too many morally questionable choices. He followed the Living Force, and never compromised his beliefs in doing what was right, regardless of what the Council said. 

4 hours ago, TyrisFlare said:

Agree that flipping a Destiny Point just to use pips is really silly. If this seems overpowered to you, attach a 1 or 2 strain cost to activating any Force Power (and still spend 1 strain per dark point flipped).

I also think Conflict should be attached to actual powers (harm, unleash, choke) and what they do, rather than every time you flip a pip, but that's just a quibble with the Morality system.

Using Harm, Unleash, etc. is assured to get you Conflict, given the inherent cruelty in their uses.

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In many ways Qui-gon was chaotic good. And the Jedi were Lawful good. The problem is when you let Dogma prevent you from doing what is right. For example in The recent Dooku book the Jedi refused to act to help a planet because the Senate said no. Way too much letting the Senate dictate what they do.

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14 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

While it's not your intent, looked at from an outsider's perspective by folks that are pretty familiar with the system, that ultimately is what you're trying to do, while adding extra degrees of unnecessary complication in the process.  And as others have said, there's nothing in the lore to support that being "grey" actually has any benefit.  Back when the prequels came out, this line of thinking, of being "grey" was called the Potentium Heresy, and even they skewed more towards the "light" with the main difference in their view of the Force being that the dark side was internal only and not part of the Force (which has been shown to be incorrect, and thus why the "Heresy" label was added.)

Plus, the very fact you opened with "I created this for my character" is a huge red flag that you have a vested interest in skewing this to better favor your character than creating something that's actually balanced.  Many a bad homebrewed game mechanic have sprung from the notion, well-intended or not, of making something cool for a specific character.  I've been creating homebrew material for various RPGs for the better part of three decades now, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that creating stuff to directly benefit a character I'm playing rarely has a beneficial outcome for the game that character's in.

As for bonuses, I suggest you re-read what you posted.  Under your proposed system, being exactly in the middle (something that's fairly easy to achieve) provides a boost to wound threshold and strain threshold and the freedom to use light pips and dark pips as the player desires without either of the major costs (strain or destiny point) that the default system requires, which in turn makes them more powerful overall.

It may be that it's easy to be subjective, because as you say I have a vested interest in it, however that doesn't necessarily by default make me any less objective, and for your information I have nearly 30 years of experience with rpgs, with the majority of that time, being as the gm, and for a lot of that time I've been making homebrew material and even my own systems. In regards to the bonuses in the middle, they're not essential for this to work and can be considered to be removed - like I said, I'm interested in making something that is reasonable and balanced. To me, it would seem like a pretty severe consequence that you can't reliable commit sided force points, even though you can freely select what points to commit based on how many successes you score. It also seems like a penalty that you actually have to spend a lot more xp to become more reliable, a lot more than just raising force rating, because you need to raise both willpower and discipline, and even with a maximum dice pool, you can still fail, higly unlikely but certainly possible, where a light side or dark side user of the force with the same force rating could just flip a destiny point and be able to succeed, the grey force user under this system would not be able to get anything out of spending a destiny point if there are no success to support committing force points.

You mention using strain to power force powers, I don't think thats a very good idea, as that is for the most part an actual combat resource, especially when considering that when running out of strain will make the character become unconcious, which is extremely dangerous in a combat. Recovering strain is simple, but not it's not like you regain strain fast, even a good nights sleep won't necessarily restore all strain. The strain resource was certainly not resource intended for being used a lot. Furthermore, there are also various ways one can suffer strain loss, like from taking stun damage, fear, fatigue, and that sort of thing, which are things you have no control over. Bottomline, if you're near the strain threshold, you can't use any force powers, which makes it very imbalanced to have it cost strain to use force powers from either side.

The way I see it, conflict and morality are very important mechanics for force users, and as such it should be those that should be focused on, but even with the standard rules, there are not much consequences from going full light side or full dark side. Even the whole idea of reducing strain as one becomes a dark side force user, isn't congruent with what we can observe, because dark side force users are seemingly able to push themselves to physically do more, not just endure more damage. But despite that I think it would be better to award light and dark sided conflict respectively when committing light or dark sided force points.

I'd also like to point out, that to me it seems that the force dice should've had the opposite point distribution, the reason being that with the current distribution of points it reflects something that isn't congruent with the lore.
Let me elaborate on that, both sides are equal in terms of strength, but thats not what the force dice represent, in fact with distribution of points, you actually have to have a much higher force rating to reliably be able to get the same amounts of dark side points than it does for light side. As it stands, there are 5 sides on the dice for light side, and 7 sides for the dark side, where the majority of the sides for the dark side are only ones with a SINGLE side with two points. For the light side there are three sides with two points each and two sides with one point each, this makes it seem like the light side is much stronger than the dark side, which is far from correct, but furthermore it actually makes dark side force users weaker in comparison to light side force user as it currently stands. Oddly enough, the dark side force users seem to be more powerful than light side force uers, which would seem like it's because dark side force users are relying on very strong and more uncontrollable emotions like fear, hatred, anger, etc. As Yoda says, it's "Quicker, easier, more seductive. ", but doesn't say anything about either side being stronger than the other, but does imply that the dark side isn't stronger than the light side, but that doesn't mean the light side is stronger than the dark side. But with it being quicker and easier, to access the dark side of the force, it should at least have been the opposite force distribution on the force dice, but to be congruent with the lore it really should've been an equal force point distribution. The different sides of the force must have different qualities that are not reflected in the system, because that is the only thing that would make sense, especially when you consider the fact that dark side users in most cases do seem stronger than light side users.

 

7 hours ago, Raicheck said:

Then remove the destiny point flip.  That's what I did for my force & destiny campaign I'm currently running, as I wanted the dark side to be even more tempting.   Temptation, moral quandaries, and consequences are a hallmark of my games, and this one is focused on those themes even more so. 

 

The PC's in my game are fairly deep xp wise, but the two most powerful are the magus and the consular.  Both have high force ratings, but the Magus is capable of putting out more raw force than any other PC in the game, though it's almost all dark side points.   He often chooses not to, as the PC is worried about falling too far to the Dark sides  influence.  However, he has "slipped" when pressed and dropped enough force points to power his harm power to wipe out a very large group of NPC's.     The consular has a big hammer (maxed out move)  and has the force rating to consistently pull it off.  

 

  As for the destiny point being a party resource that the force user is using.   Nothing is preventing the force user from trying each round to use their spiffy powers.   Second, destiny points should be a constantly changing pool, where there's a good deal of back and forth during tense scenes.     

  I also like that the force setting is neutral, as there is no penalty for going light or dark, other than the inbuilt morality benefits/penalties for having high or low morality.   There is nothing stopping a PC from embracing the dark side, or the light side, though it's been my experience that PC's tend to drift towards higher morality as a default due to their actions most of the time.   It seems to be a player thing, as a lot of my players tend to consider the impact their actions before they act.   It's not always the case, but it happens.   

Ultimately, my main objection to your rules is that the middle path gets all of the benefits, and none of the penalties.  Which, given the default at which most force users start, makes it inordinately powerful, and a mandatory choice for anyone choosing to optimize their PC, which means I'd never allow it. 

Anywho, that's my experience.   Good luck, good gaming. 

 

I think removing the destiny point flip and making it free to choose, makes much more sense from a mechanical stand point but certainly also from a lorewise perspective.
Well, it does require the gm to spend the destiny point for the player to have it available to spend, plus also a dark side force user will make the party lose a destiny point, and the party may also be unlucky and not get any light side destiny points from the beginning. But bottomline still is that it requires the gm to spend the destiny points, and if it's not available when you're in the situation where you need it, then you can't use it. In regards to what I wrote with the benefits from the middle, was first of all taken as inspiration from other suggestions and is far from necessary in what suggested and can be considered to be removed, the aspect of the suggestion, is the mechanic to roll the willpower/discipline check to be able to commit the side force points, as it doesn't discriminate and won't you be more likely to succeed just because you become stronger in the force, you have to work on improving willpower and discipline as well, which will make it cost far more xp to develop all of the necessary aspects, and even in getting a maximum dice pool, it's still possible to fail. Where under the normal system a light or dark side force user could just flip a destiny point and succeed, where if a grey force user under this system were to flip a destiny point, it wouldn't change anything as it wouldn't give any more successes.

Personally, I feel that it would've been a lot better and more congruent with the lore, if they instead of using the force point generation system, had instead made it be that an actual ability or skill roll, where the amount of successes scored would be the amount of points that were available to spend on force related actions, powers, talents, skills, etc., then if the situation called for it, then have the player roll against whatever could make the character draw upon the opposing side, like for instance fear. In this case the player would roll cool, failing the roll would mean the force user used the dark side of the force. It should also be made so it could be that the force could use various abilities, so that that the force didn't just rely on a single ability or skill. I think using the already existing dice system would add a lot more flavour to using the force than what it currently is.

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12 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

It may be that it's easy to be subjective, because as you say I have a vested interest in it, however that doesn't necessarily by default make me any less objective, and for your information I have nearly 30 years of experience with rpgs, with the majority of that time, being as the gm, and for a lot of that time I've been making homebrew material and even my own systems. In regards to the bonuses in the middle, they're not essential for this to work and can be considered to be removed - like I said, I'm interested in making something that is reasonable and balanced. To me, it would seem like a pretty severe consequence that you can't reliable commit sided force points, even though you can freely select what points to commit based on how many successes you score. It also seems like a penalty that you actually have to spend a lot more xp to become more reliable, a lot more than just raising force rating, because you need to raise both willpower and discipline, and even with a maximum dice pool, you can still fail, higly unlikely but certainly possible, where a light side or dark side user of the force with the same force rating could just flip a destiny point and be able to succeed, the grey force user under this system would not be able to get anything out of spending a destiny point if there are no success to support committing force points.

You mention using strain to power force powers, I don't think thats a very good idea, as that is for the most part an actual combat resource, especially when considering that when running out of strain will make the character become unconcious, which is extremely dangerous in a combat. Recovering strain is simple, but not it's not like you regain strain fast, even a good nights sleep won't necessarily restore all strain. The strain resource was certainly not resource intended for being used a lot. Furthermore, there are also various ways one can suffer strain loss, like from taking stun damage, fear, fatigue, and that sort of thing, which are things you have no control over. Bottomline, if you're near the strain threshold, you can't use any force powers, which makes it very imbalanced to have it cost strain to use force powers from either side.

The way I see it, conflict and morality are very important mechanics for force users, and as such it should be those that should be focused on, but even with the standard rules, there are not much consequences from going full light side or full dark side. Even the whole idea of reducing strain as one becomes a dark side force user, isn't congruent with what we can observe, because dark side force users are seemingly able to push themselves to physically do more, not just endure more damage. But despite that I think it would be better to award light and dark sided conflict respectively when committing light or dark sided force points.

I'd also like to point out, that to me it seems that the force dice should've had the opposite point distribution, the reason being that with the current distribution of points it reflects something that isn't congruent with the lore.
Let me elaborate on that, both sides are equal in terms of strength, but thats not what the force dice represent, in fact with distribution of points, you actually have to have a much higher force rating to reliably be able to get the same amounts of dark side points than it does for light side. As it stands, there are 5 sides on the dice for light side, and 7 sides for the dark side, where the majority of the sides for the dark side are only ones with a SINGLE side with two points. For the light side there are three sides with two points each and two sides with one point each, this makes it seem like the light side is much stronger than the dark side, which is far from correct, but furthermore it actually makes dark side force users weaker in comparison to light side force user as it currently stands. Oddly enough, the dark side force users seem to be more powerful than light side force uers, which would seem like it's because dark side force users are relying on very strong and more uncontrollable emotions like fear, hatred, anger, etc. As Yoda says, it's "Quicker, easier, more seductive. ", but doesn't say anything about either side being stronger than the other, but does imply that the dark side isn't stronger than the light side, but that doesn't mean the light side is stronger than the dark side. But with it being quicker and easier, to access the dark side of the force, it should at least have been the opposite force distribution on the force dice, but to be congruent with the lore it really should've been an equal force point distribution. The different sides of the force must have different qualities that are not reflected in the system, because that is the only thing that would make sense, especially when you consider the fact that dark side users in most cases do seem stronger than light side users.

 

I think removing the destiny point flip and making it free to choose, makes much more sense from a mechanical stand point but certainly also from a lorewise perspective.
Well, it does require the gm to spend the destiny point for the player to have it available to spend, plus also a dark side force user will make the party lose a destiny point, and the party may also be unlucky and not get any light side destiny points from the beginning. But bottomline still is that it requires the gm to spend the destiny points, and if it's not available when you're in the situation where you need it, then you can't use it. In regards to what I wrote with the benefits from the middle, was first of all taken as inspiration from other suggestions and is far from necessary in what suggested and can be considered to be removed, the aspect of the suggestion, is the mechanic to roll the willpower/discipline check to be able to commit the side force points, as it doesn't discriminate and won't you be more likely to succeed just because you become stronger in the force, you have to work on improving willpower and discipline as well, which will make it cost far more xp to develop all of the necessary aspects, and even in getting a maximum dice pool, it's still possible to fail. Where under the normal system a light or dark side force user could just flip a destiny point and succeed, where if a grey force user under this system were to flip a destiny point, it wouldn't change anything as it wouldn't give any more successes.

Personally, I feel that it would've been a lot better and more congruent with the lore, if they instead of using the force point generation system, had instead made it be that an actual ability or skill roll, where the amount of successes scored would be the amount of points that were available to spend on force related actions, powers, talents, skills, etc., then if the situation called for it, then have the player roll against whatever could make the character draw upon the opposing side, like for instance fear. In this case the player would roll cool, failing the roll would mean the force user used the dark side of the force. It should also be made so it could be that the force could use various abilities, so that that the force didn't just rely on a single ability or skill. I think using the already existing dice system would add a lot more flavour to using the force than what it currently is.

Incorrect on the force dice. They are distributed exactly how Yoda describes the force. The dark side is quicker easier. So there are the same number of force points. for each. but the dark side is on more faces. So it is easier to get dark side pips but the light side pips have a better chance of get 2 pips on them.  I think you put WAAAAYYYY to much emphasis on destiny points being hard to use. They aren't hard to use and they should be flowing back and forth between the players and the GM.

on the Force being a series of Force Skills. That has been tried. It was problematic. As they end up being the end all be all skills in a system.

Edited by Daeglan

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9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

 I think you put WAAAAYYYY to much emphasis on destiny points being hard to use. They aren't hard to use and they should be flowing back and forth between the players and the GM..

This. So much this. It can be like pulling teeth to get players that are new to the system to use destiny points, but the game is really designed around using them fairly often, not hoarding them.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Incorrect on the force dice. They are distributed exactly how Yoda describes the force. The dark side is quicker easier. So there are the same number of force points. for each. but the dark side is on more faces. So it is easier to get dark side pips but the light side pips have a better chance of get 2 pips on them.  I think you put WAAAAYYYY to much emphasis on destiny points being hard to use. They aren't hard to use and they should be flowing back and forth between the players and the GM.

on the Force being a series of Force Skills. That has been tried. It was problematic. As they end up being the end all be all skills in a system.

That certainly depends on the perspective, it is easier, but most certainly not quicker, if anything the light side distribution is the quicker one, because you can more quickly generate more points than you can in comparison to the dark side point sides on the force dice.

You say they should be flowing back, but the keyword here is SHOULD, because thats where it's fundamentally flawed, as they may not be flowing back and forth in the pace thats the INTENDED pace, so they may not be available when it's actually needed.

I weren't saying it should be force skills, I was saying it should use the ability and skill dicepool system for generation of the points and for determining various things in relations to the force, like for instance if the force user is able to remain cool as the force is being used all while being in a situation that would cause fear.

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That certainly depends on the perspective, it is easier, but most certainly not quicker, if anything the light side distribution is the quicker one, because you can more quickly generate more points than you can in comparison to the dark side point sides on the force dice.

You say they should be flowing back, but the keyword here is SHOULD, because thats where it's fundamentally flawed, as they may not be flowing back and forth in the pace thats the INTENDED pace, so they may not be available when it's actually needed.

I weren't saying it should be force skills, I was saying it should use the ability and skill dicepool system for generation of the points and for determining various things in relations to the force, like for instance if the force user is able to remain cool as the force is being used all while being in a situation that would cause fear.

It is also quicker. You are more likely to get what you need. So yes quicker.

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