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6 hours ago, Kani Kantai said:

“Other great clans?”  That’s a bit presumptuous of a bunch of stinky pirates and zombies...

...you can become a great clan when you pay for the wall we built to keep you out.

I choose to give you 1 honor instead.

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:14 AM, Kani Kantai said:

Did FFG ever rotate cards back IN?  Or once Cycle 5 starts will those cards be gone for ever?  I can’t see myself keeping multiple cycles worth of cards I’ll never use again. 😵

Do people really just end up storing boxes and boxes of cards they don’t use?  I can’t imagine they have any resale value...I might make some starter decks I don’t mind giving away to friends/family, but the prospect of an ever growing paper pile is why i left MtG - I played until the first set I bought rotated out and then moved on to X-Wing.

Better buy some card boxes for the attic...

It should also be noted that this question is hard to answer as no competitive LCG (except Netrunner) had enough cycles released to phase some out. The most recent to almost get that far (to my knowledge) was the Star Wars LCG and once it released its 6th cycle and would introduce a 7th one that phased the 1st cycle out they instead said the game was finished.

I think the 1st edition Game of Thrones LCG might have gotten that far too, it started as a CCG then converted to an LCG but I don't know how many cycles came out or if they did any phasing before starting it over as 2nd edition. Even Netrunner, if it did phase outs, would have only done 1 full process where the first 6 cycles phased out for the second 6 before it was declared completed.

I would hazard a guess to say there's your minimum timetable for the game. I would also hazard a prediction that the game will go longer than that looking at how long the CCG went. I mean it's essentially a Rokugan parallel universe so you know there's a long way to go story-wise. I'll also type the word hazard one more time just to be safe.

I think I started this post as a zinger to be like "haha no one knows because FFG has never stayed committed to a LCG long enough to find out" but honestly considering that timetable for competitive and casual play I'd say the game should have a good enough lifespan.

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4 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I think the 1st edition Game of Thrones LCG might have gotten that far too, it started as a CCG then converted to an LCG but I don't know how many cycles came out or if they did any phasing before starting it over as 2nd edition.

AGoT 1st edition had 12 cycles come out before they rebooted it. There was never any rotation; FFG specifically excluded it, saying it would get a reboot instead.

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Posted (edited)

My personal and slightly infuriating side effect from this is watching players who might have gotten out of the game earlier try to unload their cards long after rotation at almost retail prices.

 

Actually, like some people with Old-L5R to this day...

Understandable when you don't keep up with the game anymore, of course.

Edited by Hordeoverseer

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@Hordeoverseer Im fine with them being sold at/near retail price. Anything to avoid ridiculous over inflation on the secondary market. Stuff sold in regular releases shouldn’t every be sold for to much more than retail. Only different versions like full/alt art stuff should have higher prices since they’re meant to be special.

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Please...PLEASE!  No re-boot/ 2nd edition base sets. That would royally suck. Wasn't happy when Star Wars X-Wing did that as well!

I really wasn't happy to hear about rotating cards out anyway as the LCG format was the main reason for me jumping back in to L5R. No wasted cards sat gathering dust in binders...

I can only hope that when key characters rotate out they use the old CCG mechanic of using experienced versions to keep them alive in the game (assuming they don't get KO'd in the storyline that is!)

 

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To be honest, at least competitively speaking, there are already lots of wasted cards gathering dust that are legal right now. Kind of the nature of an LCG when there are better cards occupying certain slots.

Rotation is best for the health of the game, although I kind of wished it got to the point of Netrunner or Conquest (the proposed rotation) to give a large enough collection to allow for some janky decks. Smaller card pool size kind of just encourages each Clan to have the "ONE competitive deck" but that deck will have a shorter lifespan.

If they do a second core box and take cues from Netrunner, it will be made up of cards from past sets anyways and won't make it a mandatory purchase.

I have to admit that the X-Wing players really have it good, FFG made them a bridge product and no gaming company is obligated to do that (at the cost bad press). If in the past they made the players buy premium ships for upgrades, they could have done the same for updated cards.

 

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2 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

To be honest, at least competitively speaking, there are already lots of wasted cards gathering dust that are legal right now. Kind of the nature of an LCG when there are better cards occupying certain slots.

It's the nature of any competitive game, LCG, CCG, DBG. There will always be "optimal" cards, "sub-optimal" cards, and lemons.

At least with an LCG I have full playsets of cards for making fun decks for local casual games.

I want a "Core 2.0" update to the base set/legality.

I'd also like for them to print out cards with errata and make them cheaply available. I see a lot of controversy about this idea, but I just watched a podcast from a much smaller game dev who about to do it for their game because they feel it would be better for the competitive scene in the long run. It's kind of silly to just expect new players to deal with errata on top of everything else getting in to L5R entails. Give out errata'd cards like candy in promo kits and the such. Sell cheap packs on the website. 

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10 hours ago, The Steel Unicorn said:

I can only hope that when key characters rotate out they use the old CCG mechanic of using experienced versions to keep them alive in the game (assuming they don't get KO'd in the storyline that is!)

 

To be fair, we already have an "exp" Akodo Toturi and will soon have one for Isawa Tadaka as well. Granted, neither of the originals are in a pack that will rotate out, but it seems likely there will be main characters getting new cards as the cycles release and card pool rotates. 

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55 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

All the non-Shadowlands characters are dead.......

They just don't know it.

;)

Gah!  Of course they know they're dead!..... they just want to share that state with the rest of Rokugan....:D

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Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2019 at 6:33 AM, The Steel Unicorn said:

Please...PLEASE!  No re-boot/ 2nd edition base sets. That would royally suck. Wasn't happy when Star Wars X-Wing did that as well!

I really wasn't happy to hear about rotating cards out anyway as the LCG format was the main reason for me jumping back in to L5R. No wasted cards sat gathering dust in binders...

I can only hope that when key characters rotate out they use the old CCG mechanic of using experienced versions to keep them alive in the game (assuming they don't get KO'd in the storyline that is!)

 

You would prefer the game just dies from the slow attrition?  My experience has been these games must refresh periodically to sustain a player base.  I think history has been a good indicator that this is true.  Most of the biggest problems to the card pool exist right there in the core, which makes sense since those are the cards designed with the least experience with the game being in the wild.  You address those problems and give new players a jumping on point.  It was a very effective move for when Netrunner started to spiral into death.

Famously one of the Crab characters in the core set died in a fiction before the game was even released.

Edited by phillos

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I'm hoping what we see as the rotation comes about is that once we get our 2nd clan packs for each clan, FFG will do a new core set that has the "cards that worked" from the original core set, the dynasty packs that rotated out, and the first clan packs. This is a good opportunity to fix things.  Rebalance, errata old cards, etc.  but make it so the people who have been loyal and fully supported the game from the beginning aren't forced to buy all new core sets.  They can just use the cards that remain legal after the reset.

 

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10 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm hoping what we see as the rotation comes about is that once we get our 2nd clan packs for each clan, FFG will do a new core set that has the "cards that worked" from the original core set, the dynasty packs that rotated out, and the first clan packs. This is a good opportunity to fix things.  Rebalance, errata old cards, etc.  but make it so the people who have been loyal and fully supported the game from the beginning aren't forced to buy all new core sets.  They can just use the cards that remain legal after the reset.

 

Am really liking this idea. FFG take note!  Reward the long term supporters and make it easy for new players. A win win for all :D

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm hoping what we see as the rotation comes about is that once we get our 2nd clan packs for each clan, FFG will do a new core set that has the "cards that worked" from the original core set, the dynasty packs that rotated out, and the first clan packs. This is a good opportunity to fix things.  Rebalance, errata old cards, etc.  but make it so the people who have been loyal and fully supported the game from the beginning aren't forced to buy all new core sets.  They can just use the cards that remain legal after the reset.

 

That's how it was for Netrunner, and that was received very well.  They'd be insane not to repeat something that worked well.  So if they did it that way then a core 2.0 would have no impact on you.  It would just be a good thing for the card pool balance and a nice new jumping on point for new players.  The only concern would be old 1.0 cores would become a dead product.  Though that's a retailer concern.  Not a player concern.  For us it's only a benefit.

Edited by phillos

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Players quitting because their cards rotated out vs getting new players, I feel the latter often wins out and the vote was won with money. If it didn't card games wouldn't have a rotation.

However, with old cores being dead, it's very cringy to watch stores and people in the secondary market try to push their old cores are full retail price when there's a 2.0 in active circulation. I kind of wished there was a compensation system in place for retail stores for their old cores as they do want to make their return and may discourage them from stocking more if it's not hot product in their area.

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4 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

If it didn't card games wouldn't have a rotation.

Money may be A motivation for rotations, but it's not the only one - they are also good for the health of the game. Card pools become unwieldy, and if there isn't a rotation the power level needs to increase constantly to ensure new cards are worth buying over older ones, which also become harder to get, decreasing the ability for new players to join, potentially leading to a constant decrease in playerbase with limited ability to replace losses.

As it stands it's quite an assumption to state "with old cores being dead" when we have no actual information on what is happening with Cores. Your entire second paragraph is based on assumptions and expectations, not reality.

 

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Posted (edited)

No, it's not the only valid rotation. Card rotation is a benefit to the players, although if the outrage (which it's not) was enough to offset sales then they would be less incentive. There are games out there with no rotation but the ban list is unwieldy (Yu-Gi-Oh, I think?).

No, the cores are not dead or will be dead. However, based on people's experience of Netrunner, there is a precedence for a Core 2.0 being made. Stores not stocking product because of this was going off too far, yes. If it happens at all, these stores probably didn't have much of an existing scene to begin with.

Edited by Hordeoverseer

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17 minutes ago, Hordeoverseer said:

No, it's not the only valid rotation. Card rotation is a benefit to the players, although if the outrage (which it's not) was enough to offset sales then they would be less incentive. There are games out there with no rotation but the ban list is unwieldy (Yu-Gi-Oh, I think?).

No, the cores are not dead or will be dead. However, based on people's experience of Netrunner, there is a precedence for a Core 2.0 being made. Stores not stocking product because of this was going off too far, yes. If it happens at all, these stores probably didn't have much of an existing scene to begin with.

I mean if you are managing inventory correctly you will ramp down production prior to even talking about the release of a 2.0 so by the time that stores are looking to have to order 2.0 most of the cores should have been cleared from the distribution chain to begin with. 

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8 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

Players quitting because their cards rotated out vs getting new players, I feel the latter often wins out and the vote was won with money. If it didn't card games wouldn't have a rotation.

However, with old cores being dead, it's very cringy to watch stores and people in the secondary market try to push their old cores are full retail price when there's a 2.0 in active circulation. I kind of wished there was a compensation system in place for retail stores for their old cores as they do want to make their return and may discourage them from stocking more if it's not hot product in their area.

Clever retailers will repackage the old cards that make it back to the rotation and then put everything else on eBay as their will likely come a time in which we have an "eternal" and a "standard" format for l5r so there would still be a secondary market for the cards not in the "standard" rotarion.

Again this is just me speculating as to what approach I feel would accomodate the most amount of people.

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