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[Blog] The Evolution of Rebel Beef.

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Just now, CaptainJaguarShark said:

That's something interesting. I was just assuming still with Braylen. Do we still want Cassian as badly if we don't have Braylen?

It opens up Jake's dial if he's doing a lot of mini PTL.  Saw can continuously sit and spin.  Or you could make an argument for Magva and shut down re-rolls. 

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20 hours ago, DexterOnone said:

Actually, this brings up an interesting point. Whenever a list that just works floats towards the top of the meta, everyone’s reaction is to call for points increases. How about looking at it from a different perspective?

So, as a bit of a thought experiment; if Rebel Beef were declared ‘here to stay’, what sort of list would you construct to counter it... and what points reductions might be required to other ships and upgrades to make that happen?

For example, there was mention of swarms as a counter to beef... how would you construct and buff a swarm to make it effective in this match-up? ;)

I think the baseline is supposed to be the tie fighter - if it can easily destroy the tie swarm - I think it is overpowered 

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1 hour ago, Pink_Viking said:

Do you want a powercreep? That's how you get a powercreep.

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Power creep is a process whereby new content slowly outstrips the original content in power, which clearly has nothing to do with what I’m suggesting.

I’m advocating setting a power threshold, and using that to balance the existing content, in preference to whack-a-mole nerfing of whatever happens to be good!

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13 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Power creep is a process whereby new content slowly outstrips the original content in power, which clearly has nothing to do with what I’m suggesting.

I’m advocating setting a power threshold, and using that to balance the existing content, in preference to whack-a-mole nerfing of whatever happens to be good!

This debate happens in every single game ever. 

It is far easier to slightly nerf one thing then improve all of the other things. 

Rebel Beef does all the things well: it has great time on target due to Leia, it has a lot of HP, it has a relatively high initiative, and it deals a lot of damage. You are proposing that we buff everything so every competitive list just does everything well. No thanks.

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38 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Rebel Beef does all the things well: it has great time on target due to Leia, it has a lot of HP, it has a relatively high initiative, and it deals a lot of damage. You are proposing that we buff everything so every competitive list just does everything well. No thanks.

QUINT PHANTOMS

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3 hours ago, DexterOnone said:

In a competitive environment, all it indicates is that competitive players will gravitate towards taking whatever list is perceived as the best. If a high percentage of top players all use it, even a marginal advantage could see it making the cut at a very high frequency.

I disagree. The amount of dominating list is not constant enough to support that claim.

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41 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

It is far easier to slightly nerf one thing then improve all of the other things. 

I agree, it is easier... but taking the easy short term fix isn’t necessarily the best option for the game in the long term.

Points increases to kill off Rebel Beef potentially undoes a lot of the positives that came out of the last round of points changes.

I seem to recall a lot of complaints about the dominance of i5 pilots, and that pilots at i3-4 weren’t being played. Now we have a successful list with 3 pilots at i3-4, and people want to kill it off! :o

Fickle bunch...

 

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1 minute ago, DexterOnone said:

I agree, it is easier... but taking the easy short term fix isn’t necessarily the best option for the game in the long term.

Points increases to kill off Rebel Beef potentially undoes a lot of the positives that came out of the last round of points changes.

I seem to recall a lot of complaints about the dominance of i5 pilots, and that pilots at i3-4 weren’t being played. Now we have a successful list with 3 pilots at i3-4, and people want to kill it off! :o

Fickle bunch...

 

I think you missed the point.

The points increases are small, designed precisely to not kill off Rebel Beef. Nobody wants to kill it. It's been stated over and over that people don't want it killed, just brought down to a little better parity. I'm starting to think you are willfully ignoring that.

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2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I think you missed the point.

The points increases are small, designed precisely to not kill off Rebel Beef. Nobody wants to kill it. It's been stated over and over that people don't want it killed, just brought down to a little better parity. I'm starting to think you are willfully ignoring that.

Any points change, even a small one, kills it in one or more of its current flavours.

The question I’m asking is why should we make a good list worse in order to achieve parity instead of improving multiple bad lists?

’Because it’s easier’ is not a satisfactory answer!

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1 minute ago, DexterOnone said:

Any points change, even a small one, kills it in one or more of its current flavours.

The question I’m asking is why should we make a good list worse in order to achieve parity instead of improving multiple bad lists?

’Because it’s easier’ is not a satisfactory answer!

It won't "kill it" at all. You just won't get all the parts. It'll still be competitive, you just don't get Wedge, Cassian, Braylen, Leia, and another quality named piece. It will still win tournaments.

As far as why, I already gave it to you but I'll expand:

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

Rebel Beef does all the things well: it has great time on target due to Leia, it has a lot of HP, it has a relatively high initiative, and it deals a lot of damage. You are proposing that we buff everything so every competitive list just does everything well.

Lists need weaknesses to cover for and for your opponent to attempt to exploit. Rebel Beef doesn't really have one. 

6 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

’Because it’s easier’ is not a satisfactory answer!

It sure as heck is a satisfactory answer when you are talking about rebalancing dozens of ships and hundreds of pilots instead of rebalancing six. Time and money are finite resources for FFG.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

That's something interesting. I was just assuming still with Braylen. Do we still want Cassian as badly if we don't have Braylen?

I don't think you would. You can then replace Braylan and Cassian with Magva and Heff, along with the existing Wedge/Biggs combo. Heff could take Selfless while Magva carries Leia. You lose Braylan's rerolls, but so does almost everyone who attacks you.

Edited by PhantomFO

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9 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

It sure as heck is a satisfactory answer when you are talking about rebalancing dozens of ships and hundreds of pilots instead of rebalancing six. Time and money are finite resources for FFG.

Those dozens of ships and hundreds of pilots still end up needing to be rebalanced... just on a piecemeal basis as different things become the new flavour of the month and people demand more points increases.

A single rebalancing exercise encompassing a wider range of ships is a more efficient and effective solution in the long term.

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One issue I have with rebel beef and its varients isnt the points.  I will agree the Leia is way too cheap.  6 points sounds good to me.  It is the range of the abilities.  1-3 for Dutch and Cassian.  And Liea ability = board.  It is too much.  1-2 for ranges.  Other factions are limited on ability range use.  It would chamge alot of the dynamic of the list if they had to stick close.

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@Old Sarge I remember you. And your son. I played against him in the 4th round of Swiss. Rebel beef is difficult under most circumstances for me. Throw Proton Torps in, and it's terrifying. I barely squeaked a win by. I was very happy to see him make a top cut. 

And I'm glad you hear you enjoy the blog. It's always awesome to hear that people read the blog, let alone actually enjoy it. Lol. 

@gennataos I don't understand where this hate is coming from. I have nothing but love in my heart for you, my friend. 😉

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Someone hands you a chunk of wood with a few gouges and a couple bumps and you want to smooth it out.  What do you do?  You fill in the low spots and sand down the high ones.  You sure as **** don't bring the whole board up to the level of the highest bump.  Maybe you don't get it perfectly smooth the first time.  But you go back and try again. 

If we take Dexter's  approach, I guarantee one of the buffed lists will become the new most powerful and then you start the whole thing over.  That's just a different type of powercreep.

Buff the bad pilots, yes.  But you also nerf the ones that are above the curve.  Fewer changes.  Fewer chances to screw up.

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7 hours ago, DexterOnone said:

Those dozens of ships and hundreds of pilots still end up needing to be rebalanced... just on a piecemeal basis as different things become the new flavour of the month and people demand more points increases.

A single rebalancing exercise encompassing a wider range of ships is a more efficient and effective solution in the long term.

Then as soon as a new wave is released it all goes to h*ck and you have to do a "rebalancing exercise".

Do you think that FFG didn't do a "rebalancing exercise" when they released 2.0? Thats what 2.0 is.

There is not a "solution". The solution is to continually work at it. It will never escape the piecemeal basis. There's even going to be a new hail mary definition in American Football because they can't get that right.

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6 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Someone hands you a chunk of wood with a few gouges and a couple bumps and you want to smooth it out.  What do you do?  You fill in the low spots and sand down the high ones.  You sure as **** don't bring the whole board up to the level of the highest bump.  Maybe you don't get it perfectly smooth the first time.  But you go back and try again. 

You go out to your car one morning and notice three of the tyres are looking a bit flat. Do you let some air out of the one properly inflated tyre to balance it out? No, you check the three under-inflated tyres for leaks, patch them if necessary, and pump them up to match the tyre that has the better pressure level. Yes, I can come up with analogies to fit a narrative too...

 

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

Then as soon as a new wave is released it all goes to h*ck and you have to do a "rebalancing exercise".

I’d hope that new content, at the point of release, would be balanced against the current state of the game... but there are obviously some potentially quite game-changing upgrades coming in the next wave. Any talk of points changes before we know where they fall is perhaps premature... feelings about Rebel Beef could end up forgotten in the wake of Electro-Fusion bombs!

 

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

Do you think that FFG didn't do a "rebalancing exercise" when they released 2.0? Thats what 2.0 is.

 There is not a "solution". The solution is to continually work at it. It will never escape the piecemeal basis.

I’m sure they did, but we’ve had new factions added to the game since then... which appear to have been costed in a relatively conservative manner so as to avoid the “power creep” issues of the past.

And while I agree that there will always need to be piecemeal adjustments, that shouldn’t preclude the occasional major overhaul. If you just rely on piecemeal changes, you run the risk of concealing the underlying issues that are making those changes necessary.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2019 at 3:27 PM, viedit said:

Cassian (and Leia) + Braylen + Wedge + Jake = 200 points of stuff for the dealer invoice pricing of 184.

I played a variant of this yesterday, and it's some of the dumbest "do what you want" stuff I've played in 2.0.  Like, it was a ton of fun to play, but it's ridiculously flexible while putting a serious amount of modified dice downfield.  Leia could go up to 6 and each pilot could go up 3 and the archetype will barely skip a beat.  I'm wondering if the Jake variant isn't just flat out better.

Edited by gennataos

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I played Beef list before FFG made changes to make it Hyperspace legal. Won store champs with it and made top 4 of hyperspace trials, of course my variant has some pretty nonstandart parts: 

A/SF-01 B-wing - •Braylen Stramm - 47
    •Braylen Stramm - Blade Leader (47)

T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 66
    •Wedge Antilles - Red Two (52)
        Trick Shot (2)
        Proton Torpedoes (12)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

UT-60D U-wing - •Cassian Andor - 51
    •Cassian Andor - Raised by the Rebellion (47)
        •Leia Organa (2)
        Tactical Officer (2)
        Pivot Wing (Open) (0)

RZ-1 A-wing - •Jake Farrell - 36
    •Jake Farrell - Sage Instructor (36)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

The unholy trio of Wedge, braylen and cassian is a must. And the scary part is, even if points change happen I can easily trim 14 points of my list (protons and trick shot), and not loose much efficiency. Versions with selfless and Biggs looks way easier to fly, and this one gives you headache at around round 3 (imagine options you get from cordinating Jake, and him giving out focuses to ships that have focus chained to move options). 

Solution? Some points change are in order, I'm first to say Leia needs a raise, at least to 6, as does Wedge to maybe 55-56, and Even Braylen could use few extra points. But solution needs to be two part, players need to be given new interesting options, even if it eventually leads to some level of powercreep.

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I'm fully convinced that anyone flying Rebel Beef and not flying Jake is doing it seriously wrong.

Not necessarily for winrate, but in a moral sense, and for maximizing pure fun.  Just played three games against a Jake-Beef, and he does such wicked cool things.  Coordinated into a Barrel Roll > Focus > Boost > Handing a Focus back to the U-Wing > Blue Move > Lock or Evade is just sweet. 

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I played against a Jake- Beef list just last week. I think it's distinctly worse than other versions. It didn't hit nearly as hard, and was easier to chew through. That being said, it seemed like it would be a lot more fun than the standard Beef Wedgeington. I imagine that when various aspects of Beef Wedgeington go up after the points change, it will be a lot more common. 

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Bunker with Jake seems like the strongest possible version of the list that can fit within 200 points and (probably?) not just still be busted.

If you can still fit a generic B-Wing in that 4th slot after July, does the list even go anywhere? But that means it has 11 points of absorption. Leia + 4, Cassian / Braylen + 3, Wedge + 2, would be the absolute minimum to at least force people to take Jake over that B-Wing.

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The other cool thing my friend was using: one or two copies of Swarm Tactics.  Going for even THREE Swarm Tactics might be pretty sweet.  Everyone shoots at 6 for some nasty Init-kills?  Starting with Wedge/Cassian/Braylen, you'd have 43 points for the 4th ship (46 if they're carrying Swarm Tactics themself, rather than on Cassian).  Dutch or Horton Salm with ICT (no gunner) seems like it would be decent, or Jake, or maybe an Init 3 generic B-Wing.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Bunker with Jake seems like the strongest possible version of the list that can fit within 200 points and (probably?) not just still be busted.

If you can still fit a generic B-Wing in that 4th slot after July, does the list even go anywhere? But that means it has 11 points of absorption. Leia + 4, Cassian / Braylen + 3, Wedge + 2, would be the absolute minimum to at least force people to take Jake over that B-Wing.

Would a generic B-Wing even be better than Jake?  The B can hit harder, and Cassian/Leia obviates any issues with it's dial, but Jake adds a lot of flexibility.

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