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MidWestScrub

[Blog] The Evolution of Rebel Beef.

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I think just about every card in the standard Beef Wedgington archetype deserves a small price increase.  Wedge and the named B-wings are simply far too efficient.  Cassian needs to be priced according to his Braylen combo.  Leia should probably be 6 points.  Y-wings, Biggs, pretty much everything is 1-3 points too cheap.  

Nothing in there screams "I'm broken" but the sum of the parts is a monster.  Between Leia jumping up 3 or 4 points and each of the pilots taking a point or two bump, I think you lose a lot of the magic or at least create some hard decisions in list building.  Right now, Wedge, Braylen, Cassian and literally any Rebel ship sounds like a really good list.

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1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

I think just about every card in the standard Beef Wedgington archetype deserves a small price increase.  Wedge and the named B-wings are simply far too efficient.  Cassian needs to be priced according to his Braylen combo.  Leia should probably be 6 points.  Y-wings, Biggs, pretty much everything is 1-3 points too cheap.  

 Nothing in there screams "I'm broken" but the sum of the parts is a monster.  Between Leia jumping up 3 or 4 points and each of the pilots taking a point or two bump, I think you lose a lot of the magic or at least create some hard decisions in list building.  Right now, Wedge, Braylen, Cassian and literally any Rebel ship sounds like a really good list.

55 Wedge 👏 52 Braylen 👏 52 Cassian 👏 6 Leia 👏

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4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

TIE Swarms are supposed to.  

Supposed to yes. But they sure didn't at Game Goblins, from what I saw. 

12 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I think just about every card in the standard Beef Wedgington archetype deserves a small price increase.  Wedge and the named B-wings are simply far too efficient.  Cassian needs to be priced according to his Braylen combo.  Leia should probably be 6 points.  Y-wings, Biggs, pretty much everything is 1-3 points too cheap.  

Nothing in there screams "I'm broken" but the sum of the parts is a monster.  Between Leia jumping up 3 or 4 points and each of the pilots taking a point or two bump, I think you lose a lot of the magic or at least create some hard decisions in list building.  Right now, Wedge, Braylen, Cassian and literally any Rebel ship sounds like a really good list.

I completely agree. There are no really hard choices to be made in list building for this archetype. I'm perfectly fine with the archetype remaining. I just want to to have the hard choices most other archetypes have to deal with. 

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6 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

I completely agree. There are no really hard choices to be made in list building for this archetype. I'm perfectly fine with the archetype remaining. I just want to to have the hard choices most other archetypes have to deal with. 

Rebel Bunker listbuilding is like going to an ice cream bar. You just get your 3 scoops, and then the "hard" decision is just picking between fudge, caramel, or cherries on top. (Biggs, Ten Numb, or Dutch with Torps, etc)

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30 minutes ago, svelok said:

55 Wedge 👏 52 Braylen 👏 52 Cassian 👏 6 Leia 👏

I’d like to see this if they gave the B-Wings free or discounted cannons.

I’ve always wanted the B-Wing to be expensive but tricked-out. Problem is it’s never cost-effective with both. I wouldn’t mind Braylen at 55 if he also got Autoblasters and HLC in free with that price tag.

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10 minutes ago, svelok said:

55 Wedge 👏 52 Braylen 👏 52 Cassian 👏 6 Leia 👏

Whoa, that's a 17 point swing. You might be too aggressive with your re-pointing. Leia at 5-6 is reasonable. Braylen could probably go up a few, but Cassian isn't OP but more just really good with Braylen. An argument can be made for Wedge going up, but only by a few.

Making Wedge 53, Braylen 49, Leia 6, and keeping Cassian the same leaves 45 points left for beef. That eliminates Biggs, Ten, Double-Tap Ion Horton (and dorsal if VTG goes up), and ProTorp Dutch as options. Choosing your fourth would actually be sub-par choice instead of many good named pilot choices. It also make taking selfless a choice.

Honestly just making Leia 5 or 6 points is going to change quite a few lists.

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43 minutes ago, svelok said:

55 Wedge 👏 52 Braylen 👏 52 Cassian 👏 6 Leia 👏

I agree with 5050Saint that that is too aggressive pricing. Braylen should not be Soontir costed. I think just +2pts on each of those would do wonders. Still make beef an archetype, but not so powerful.

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49 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Whoa, that's a 17 point swing. You might be too aggressive with your re-pointing. Leia at 5-6 is reasonable. Braylen could probably go up a few, but Cassian isn't OP but more just really good with Braylen. An argument can be made for Wedge going up, but only by a few.

Making Wedge 53, Braylen 49, Leia 6, and keeping Cassian the same leaves 45 points left for beef. That eliminates Biggs, Ten, Double-Tap Ion Horton (and dorsal if VTG goes up), and ProTorp Dutch as options. Choosing your fourth would actually be sub-par choice instead of many good named pilot choices. It also make taking selfless a choice.

Honestly just making Leia 5 or 6 points is going to change quite a few lists.

Yeah, this is way more in line with what I'd expect. 

Wedge should be more than Soontir, but by 2 points at the absolute most. I actually think Wedge to 53 and Soontir down to 51 makes sense. 

Braylen is too efficent at the moment, no doubt. He's becoming a bit of an autoinclude for me because he doesn't need upgrades and he's really cheap at 47. 50 Should be the absolute ceiling for him, though. Any more than a quarter of the list naked and I think you'll start to struggle to fit him in any list that doesn't down to 3 ships and add a load of upgrades - and I don't know if Braylen will see play there. 

Leia is the obvious one to bump. 6 sounds good. It's 3 points in 1e money, and the 3 point crews were often among the best choices in 1e. I'm sure she'll still see play at 6 (which is good - it's Leia), but she's way less autoinclude. 

45 points isn't easy to fill as a Rebel. I wish Intimidation Arvel was better, because taking him and a couple of choice upgrades on the other ships sounds like it would be a fun list, but you're sacrificing a lot of damage in that joust. 

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Don't sleep on Soontir.  I would not recommend a price drop on Soontir right when targeting computer is coming out.  Good players can already abuse the bejeebers out of Soontir's free focus.  If anything, Soontir needs a point or two increase along with all the other I6 repositioners out there.

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1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

Don't sleep on Soontir.  I would not recommend a price drop on Soontir right when targeting computer is coming out.  Good players can already abuse the bejeebers out of Soontir's free focus.  If anything, Soontir needs a point or two increase along with all the other I6 repositioners out there.

Soontir is fine, but absolutely does not need a point increase.

52 points is 8 points over Turr, 12 over the I4 genetic, and 18! Over the I1 generic. For a ship with 3 Hull and can go poof in a single shot.

But absolutely I would not drop him either, that’s crazy talk. He’s a high risk high reward ship. Capable of dominating when played well, and with a spot of luck.

Like all fragile ships, you can’t price them too much because costing a ship that can be one shotted too high removes it from play.

Or do you not remember how for the last 2.5 years of 1.0 Interceptors were literally unplayable? Because I do!

Wedge and Han are the biggest beneficiaries of initiative point compression. Both need a points increase far more than Soontir.

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42 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Honestly just making Leia 5 or 6 points is going to change quite a few lists.

The problem is that the collateral damage from that change means some lists cease to exist... like Zeb with Leia and a mix of 4x Blue Squadron generic X-Wings, B-Wings and/or U-Wings.

That’s already 200 points, so any increase to Leia kills it. The only way to avoid that is to have her scale with carrier initiative; maybe 2 pts at i1-2, 4 pts at i3-4 and 6 pts at i5-6.

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Anti-beef:

Tractor Beam- throw Bwings around or reduce Cassian agility for yoir squad to make the kill. 

Ion: situationally clutch. Make Braylen move on to a big rock or Wedge leave the fight for two or three rounds. 

Scum Han/Lando Falcon: oh, you're stressed all game? Yummy. 

Prockets: punish beef for sticking together.

Obstacle placement. Beef loves a knife fight in a asteroid field. Give em a nasty big rock in the dead center of the board and place others in very tight zones to limit their "kill flower" options. 

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24 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

The problem is that the collateral damage from that change means some lists cease to exist... like Zeb with Leia and a mix of 4x Blue Squadron generic X-Wings, B-Wings and/or U-Wings.

That’s already 200 points, so any increase to Leia kills it. The only way to avoid that is to have her scale with carrier initiative; maybe 2 pts at i1-2, 4 pts at i3-4 and 6 pts at i5-6.

I don't feel like scaling her with her carrier initiative really does much of anything. Her ability procs at the start of the activation phase and affects the whole squad. It makes no difference at all what initative her carrier ship is. In fact, the carrier ship being low initative is actually quite helpful at times because you can then use it as a blocker abd limit the shots going into it. 

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12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let's just admit it, Leia is too darn cheap at 2points. Too expensive at 10 when they started her out. But 5-6? sounds bout right. 4 probably a tad too cheap. 

I believe she was 8 to start. Which is probably fair as well.

I’d put her to 6 personally, which is still a bit low probably, but any higher and I suspect she becomes bonded fodder for most.

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11 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let's just admit it, Leia is too darn cheap at 2points. Too expensive at 10 when they started her out. But 5-6? sounds bout right. 4 probably a tad too cheap. 

I'm not advocating anything saying this, buuuuut.....

I think without a significant increase to the primary pilots (Wedge/Braylen/Cassian), in addition to Leia, the archetype will barely stumble.  The fourth "thing" will just be a little more limited.  Like the Juke increase.  That barely put a dent into quad phantoms, if at all.

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Frankly a beef list like this doesn't really worry me. I think its a healthy archetype. If Handbrake Han 2 ship fat turret stuff starts being 80% of Tier1... that's when I'll be worried. 

Its not even like 2 X + something Proton Torpedo alpha strike.  That was kind of annoying. If balanced after Proton Torpedoes = 12. 

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Yeah, keep in mind, Leia at 8 points never saw play, but:

  • Hyperspace format didn't exist back then
  • Braylen got cheaper since then
  • Countless things that were good back then got nerfed, some of them hard, that may have preyed on beefy Leia builds
  • Remember Redline? And Vader Whisper? And Boba/Palob/Tuggs?

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1 hour ago, DexterOnone said:

The problem is that the collateral damage from that change means some lists cease to exist... like Zeb with Leia and a mix of 4x Blue Squadron generic X-Wings, B-Wings and/or U-Wings.

That’s already 200 points, so any increase to Leia kills it. The only way to avoid that is to have her scale with carrier initiative; maybe 2 pts at i1-2, 4 pts at i3-4 and 6 pts at i5-6.

Losing Zeb and 4 beefy ships is fine. You can drop to AP-5 and a change one of the generics to Zeb in the Attack Shuttle.  Making Leia scaled doesn't matter as she is just as good on a I1 Partisan Renegade as she is on I6 Han Solo.

38 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Obstacle placement. Beef loves a knife fight in a asteroid field. Give em a nasty big rock in the dead center of the board and place others in very tight zones to limit their "kill flower" options. 

This is the best strategy against beef, but with Leia, the beek never need to leave it's side of the board and engage.

8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think without a significant increase to the primary pilots (Wedge/Braylen/Cassian), in addition to Leia, the archetype will barely stumble.  The fourth "thing" will just be a little more limited.  Like the Juke increase.  That barely put a dent into quad phantoms, if at all.

I think increasing Leia to 5 or 6 makes the beef at least make a decision about what the fourth will be. All in all, I don't see Rebel beef as a meta problem, just an archetype to be aware of.

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