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gothound

Save Me from the Bore

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This is more of a list building topic, but also a continuation of LegionOdds discussion on why is competitive building for Rebels so bland.

I'd like to preface by saving that in my local community I've had a blast building and playing what I want, to degrees of success that I amount to be in game decisions rather than meta gaming. I've been able to run all sorts of combinations; Full corps with different asortments, dish turrets, full commando team.

The rallypoint is comming to my town in October, so my doctrine of 'run whats fun' might not hold up.

Yet when I try and build based off of what the community has deemed good, it just seems so cardboard. I understand that Z-6 is good, and snipers are good, and wondertwins is good, though if somone would explain why exactally that would be awsome. The point is, the numbers don't lie, and those 3 things are in winning Rebel lists

Luke Skywalker

Force Reflexes

Force Push

Emergency Stims

 

Leia Organa

Strict Orders 

Emergency Stims

 

Rebel Troopers x6

Z-6 Trooper

 

Rebel Commando Strike Team x3

Sniper

 

Should come out to 800 even. I see why all of these are good, it just seems like a boring list. Is there any other winning rebel archetype?

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I played against (and got trounced by) a list with Leia, Sabine, Z-6s, and Strike Teams WITH SABOTEURS in Invader League. I literally had no idea how to deal with the bombs. When I avoided them it gave him huge amount of control over the board and the objectives, and when I ignored them and charged in I got blown to pieces.

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I'm in the same boat.

Pending between a Luke&Leia list with troopers and snipers or a Leia&Chewie list with the same but only 2 snipers and the new speeder for some anti vehicle at range.

 

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Man I know it wouldn't win but I want to see like a double atst list at a big tourny just push hard and wreck these Mass infantry lists. I hate meta build stagnation.

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13 minutes ago, Tirion said:

Man I know it wouldn't win but I want to see like a double atst list at a big tourny just push hard and wreck these Mass infantry lists. I hate meta build stagnation.

It's hitting our local group hard. I have to stop bringing my AT-ST now because a local member has finally realized it can be completely ignored. The inability of armor to capture objectives is a noose around their necks. I've lost the last 3 games against him where armor was part of the list. I'm building troop spam with Veers these days. 

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Personally I would cut reflexes and add improv on Leia, but yeah that’s a solid list.

Z-6s are good because they are highly efficient range 3 damage, even through cover.

Snipers are good because they are cheap, rarely useless, timing neutral, and excellent at creating a defensive situation.

Leia helps you win the sniper war, manage suppression, and occasionally kill things in cover with her pistol.

Luke is a very sharp scalpel that can carry the game on his back if used correctly.

It’s boring at this point, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be fun.

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10 minutes ago, Squark said:

Perhaps, "It's no longer creative, but the execution can still be fun" is closer to what orkimedes meant?

Yeah, there you go.

It’s not original, but you can still have fun playing it on the table.

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13 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

Yeah, there you go.

It’s not original, but you can still have fun playing it on the table.

but this brings up the balance issue then.  if this is the only list or variant of then over all is this game truly balanced. 

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19 minutes ago, Fistofriles said:

but this brings up the balance issue then.  if this is the only list or variant of then over all is this game truly balanced. 

The situation is not ideal, certainly. In this case I'd say some things probably need a buff/errata. It's worth pointing out, though, that the situation we're describing occurs whenever a game becomes more or less "solved," which isn't actually dependent on balance. Chess of all things has a similar problem at certain levels of skill, and Extra Credits did a video a while back about how Starcraft getting too close to balanced ironically led to a stale metagame that reduced the challenge of the game largely to execution as opposed to strategy and tactics.

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My personal thought is that until the Strike Team nerf comes (most can agree that there is a need, but what form is a debate), 3 teams are an auto include for Rebel competitive lists for the sake of cheap activations. Fact of life unfortunately.

One thing that has me curious after the Sabine reveal is the potential for saboteurs teams in combination with her bombs.  It may end up being simply shot to pieces vs a range gun line, but it is at least a glimmer of an alternate play mode rather than range trading;  at which Rebels are now at advantage thanks to Bossk & DTs.

The good news is it is far easier to convert sabs than snipers, so you could stretch a Commando box into few teams and save some cash (assuming you photocopy the cards and no one objects).

The bad news is that my stubborn attempts to play a Wookiee heavy hth list still leaves me with a lot of scorched fur and not much else.  But someone has to come last. 😀

 

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My group has been playing a themed list league created by one of our members. I've been running 2 units of Wookies with a strike team lead by Han and Chewy. I've been making slight changes hopefully to improve my list. The latest had some promise till I lost the sab strike team. Next time I think Chewy should run with them to use his Guardian to protect them. I'll post a list if any is curious about it.

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Its a glaring problem at present. With the comparative failure of jyn and pathfinders compared to death troopers rebels sometimes appear to really have only the cheese above to rely on.

Having said that, Nick Freemans list at adepticon was pretty effective.

But generally rebels have a lot less good options. Hopefully sabine will help, although bossk just seems to double down the dominance imps currently have

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3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

This. Statistically unlikely to win anyway. May as well only buy and play with the models I actually want. 

This makes me glad I’m not a competitive player. I like assembling, painting, and converting miniatures, building terrain, and playing games (preferably using scenarios with a strong narrative component). I honestly don’t even care if I win—heck, when I play as the Empire, I sometimes root for my opponent’s troops because, well, it’s Star Wars and I like good guys!

Trying to build the ultimate überlist to destroy all and sundry  in some sort of ladder tournament sounds dull as dust. 😆 

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Sad fact of life is that Empire dominates the range/suppression/armour/defence/impact aspect of the game.  This leaves rebels with what?

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2 hours ago, Aurelus said:

Sad fact of life is that Empire dominates the range/suppression/armour/defence/impact aspect of the game.  This leaves rebels with what?

Hope! 

(and a self-righteous feeling of moral superiority) 

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No miniature game is completely balanced.

 

There is always a “meta” of things that are above average (or just plain broken) for competitive play. 

 

So is it more important to you to win or have fun ?? That’s the real question. 

 

I always play to have fun, but also to win - but I would never sacrifice fun in order to win. Other people would, and do. 

 

Remember though people have fun in different ways. To some people bringing hyper efficient cookie cutter lists to crush people is fun. Just not for me.

 

Generally people who who play “lots” of games bring the boring / efficient / meta lists to certain prestigious events because to them fun is secondary to winning there. They play plenty of other “fun” games and it all balances out.

 

I get to play very little games, so even at the biggest or most prestigious events I chose to play more for fun. That said I still do OK at winning :-).

 

so to answer the original post... take what you want (is whatever that is) just don’t be surprised when everyone else does the same 

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Depending on your play style I have seen people swap Han for Leia, you can use Luke as a distraction and get Han in peoples faces. Legion Command used this list to a great effect to win his RPQ. 

You could also swapping a couple of troopers out and putting a medical droid in and keeping this droid with in range of your commandos to keep them alive. 

I ran a sab list on my last RPQ and really enjoyed playing it, I didn't have any practice with it so lost every game but a couple were pretty close. In my games I struggled with the lack of range 4 so I am tempted with 2 snipers and 1 sab team just to mix it up a little bit. 

I thought I agree it seems like there are some boring lists and probably an optimal list for rebels just now, however I would guarantee that you would win with this list because it depends on a lot of things. Terrain seems to play a big part, if the terrain doesn't suit snipers or snipers on your side of the board your on a up hill struggle from the start. 

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10 hours ago, Aurelus said:

Sad fact of life is that Empire dominates the range/suppression/armour/defence/impact aspect of the game.  This leaves rebels with what?

Better commanders and cheaper troops.

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15 minutes ago, DekoPuma said:

Better commanders and cheaper troops.

I dunno about better commanders, at this point (at least not better characters).  What Rebels do have is efficient close range damage and mobility, which is why terrain is so important to them.

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A more 'fun' version of my list replaces Luke with 2 dish towers, and Leia trades her upgrades and 2 rebel troopers for 2 fleets with scatterguns, as well as 2 medic droids and an officer thrown into the corps mix.

 

Are the dish towers unviable? Yes they don't hit as hard and often as Luke, but they offer fixed control, and the fun part comes incase your opponent brought vehichles

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3 hours ago, gothound said:

A more 'fun' version of my list replaces Luke with 2 dish towers, and Leia trades her upgrades and 2 rebel troopers for 2 fleets with scatterguns, as well as 2 medic droids and an officer thrown into the corps mix.

 

Are the dish towers unviable? Yes they don't hit as hard and often as Luke, but they offer fixed control, and the fun part comes incase your opponent brought vehichles

I have had hit and miss with the dish towers. Empire with alot of range 4 units can stay out the turret range for most of the game sadly. I like them, but would never take them to a tournament if I think there is alot of empire players. They have to many counters.

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