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The Seinar Specialist I2 Tie Aggressor is morbidly overcosted

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

I mean has anyone seen them at all since the points change? I’ve only seen it because one guy locally flies quad K’s. But Bombers have all but vanished from the meta, and Aggressors never showed up, so they have been rather scarce.

I see Bombers on the GSP sometimes as one or two of as cheap filler paired with an ace or two.  I have literally never seen an Aggressor.

Edited by HolySorcerer

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Bah.  Why was I pricing the Y-Wing at 29 in my head?  And that was even at a reasonable hour of the day.

Maybe because a bare Goon should be 1 point lower than a bare Gray and you sort of mentally transposed the TIE/Sa and Y-Wing costs...

Gray Squadron BomberCrymorah Goon

******* slot tax... 😠

Edited by Hiemfire

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21 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I see Bombers on the GSP sometimes as one or two of as cheap filler paired with an ace or two.  I have literally never seen an Aggressor.

Many of those games, however, are Hyperspace, where the Aggressor isn't legal.

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10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Maybe because a bare Goon should be 1 point lower than a bare Gray and you sort of mentally transposed the TIE/Sa and Y-Wing costs...

******* slot tax... 😠

I'm totally fine with the Goon/Grey pricing, and the Binayre/Bandit pricing.

 

 

 

 

But I'm not fine with the thin selection of Illicit upgrades.

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Just now, theBitterFig said:

Probably not, but it's far more important to honest about the format.

I honestly never pay attention to the format, probably because I think hyperspace is trash and only ever play extended, aka play with the stuff you bought format.

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Gressor in hyperspace would open up Kestal as a very neat counter to all the dang force users 

Course Kestal is the only Gressor I'm halfway interested in, but that's more that the Gressor just isn't very interesting on its own

Cost reduction would help its viability overall, of course, but it just doesn't do anything special other than carry a turret upgrade. 

Relative to the Torrent, it's crazy manueverable and flexible, but relative to the imperial slew of unique ships with interesting ship abilities...yeah, only Kestal stands out

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:03 AM, Blail Blerg said:

It literally has the same hull shields, similar dial to the Torrent, similarly ok actions, with the only exception being that it HAS a turret slot. As we know, most of the time, slots are worth 0-2 points. 

Thus the Seinar is easily 3-5 points overcosted. 

A closer comparison for the TIE Aggressor is the TIE Bomber.  It may be overcosted, but not by much. I think its main problem is that its strengths aren't that strong right now. With Debris Gambit they can easily outlive a Bomber, but having to use their action for defense every round makes them far less effective than a Bomber. It has a turret, but turrets are currently meh and VTG is expensive (Double Edge is a great value over Sienar Specialist + VTG, if that's what you're going for). In the current meta, Bombers are only good for one thing: Barrage Rockets. In this role the Bomber is just better at being a Barrage Bomber than the Aggressor is. Lt. Kestal's ability could be great with Barrage Rockets, but he really needs a way to modify his attack dice that doesn't spend his focus token, and coordinating Kestal every round doesn't feel like the best use of a coordinate. Until there is an upgrade that the Aggressor can take advantage of more than the Bomber, it won't be able to keep up, even if it were a little cheaper.

Similarities:

  • I2 generics are 30 pts
  • I3 generics are 32 pts and add a talent slot
  • All pilots have two missile slots, a gunner, and modification
  • All pilots have focus, lock, and barrel roll
  • All standard maneuvers are the same

Differences:

  • Aggressor has a turret
  • Aggressor can link barrel roll > red evade
  • Aggressor has one K-turn: speed 4
  • Bomber has a torpedo and two device slots
  • Bomber has red reload
  • Bomber can link barrel roll > red lock
  • Bomber has two K-turns: at speeds 3 and 5

Aggressor dial:

image.png.5b126e4c8c7c2bd9f07f86776b14ca92.png

Bomber dial:

image.png.52cfdb9168fdbacc9cb518cb63e9f6e9.png

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 10:41 PM, HolySorcerer said:

Let's be honest, would that really make a difference?

Vestal can be kitted out to grief Jedi, but is still useless against any sane expectation of the meta.

Edited by player3010587

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On 5/23/2019 at 12:08 PM, BeardRedman said:

Similarities:

  • I2 generics are 30 pts
  • I3 generics are 32 pts and add a talent slot
  • All pilots have two missile slots, a gunner, and modification
  • All pilots have focus, lock, and barrel roll
  • All standard maneuvers are the same

Differences:

  • Aggressor has a turret
  • Aggressor can link barrel roll > red evade
  • Aggressor has one K-turn: speed 4
  • Bomber has a torpedo and two device slots
  • Bomber has red reload
  • Bomber can link barrel roll > red lock
  • Bomber has two K-turns: at speeds 3 and 5

Missed, but only marginally important: The Aggressor has one less health, but a shield.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if the aggressor got cheaper and the bomber lost its second missile slot. Barrage bombers personally disgust me, but I suppose that's because I hate seeing a focus-based missile as the only viable ordnance on a lock-based platform. All the other missiles need to be exactly one point cheaper and they'd all be perfectly priced.

I won against a quad Rebel list (Wedge, two Torp Blue Xs, Y-Wing) with 5 scimitars with Homing and Proton bombs. It was pretty slim and against a pretty new player, but I was able to pull it off through good range control and careful maneuvering. These things are great at bombing and I want to see them do more of that. At ordnance they're not quite as well worth it, but if missiles were cheap enough I'd definitely pay for them with less hesitation.

In the end, if the other missiles all lost a point, I think Barrage would probably be okay. If the Aggressors and Bombers went down two points, they still wouldn't be wrecking the meta. Have missiles ever really been that decisive in a game? Without Jonus the Barrage still wouldn't kill things at 7 points, and if it does, it can go up by a little. Let's not cost these ships around carrying one specific upgrade.

Up the upgrade instead.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2019 at 3:22 AM, Blail Blerg said:

These things need more schtick than just having the crappy turrets that are currently released. 

Sadly not happening unless they completely redo the card

The fluff Aggressor is a really bizarre little bugger that isn't done justice by the "it's a crappy but speedier Y-wing" we got here

Sadly, we got what we've got isn't changing anytime soon.

Though I really must stress that I think a small point discount wouldn't unhinge barrage or anything

Jonus took a major point beating and was really the thing taking barrage swarms over the top. I don't think a 34/35 point Sienar barrage man would automatically unseat the likes of the Striker and its awesome manueverability + ability to take non-focus actions (or to not suck if it doesn't have focus)

You could express minor concern about what a swarm of 38 point double-tap specialists could do, but empire has NO Drea (only howlrunner OR jonus). Plus, mo dakka is more betta 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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21 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't think a 34/35 point Sienar barrage man would automatically unseat the likes of the Striker and its awesome manueverability + ability to take non-focus actions (or to not suck if it doesn't have focus)

I don't think so either. 5 x barrage rocket specialists vs 5 x shield upgrade sentinels is a pretty close match; both have identical durability, basically trading adaptive ailerons and the ability to fire a third red die on unmodified shots for the bullseye rerolls and ability to fire at range 3 effectively

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Being away from X-Wing for some time, I read the title and thought it said “Tie Avenger”.

I clicked excitedly, then realized it’s just the weird Advanced thingy with a turret that’s missing some paneling.

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6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Would be interesting to see Howl with an Agressor swarm.

Or with any non-TIE/ln swarm, in all honesty.

Howlrunner only works for primary attacks. If she worked for turrets, you'd have something, there.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2019 at 2:39 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Would be interesting to see Howl with an Agressor swarm.

Or with any non-TIE/ln swarm, in all honesty.

One of these days, I'm finally going to get around to flying Howl + Four TIE x1s.  I had a friend fly Howl + 3 Storm with Cluster Missiles, before the points adjustment, and it kinda sorta worked, but 4 Tempests + Howl seems like it might be solid improvement.  You'll have non-zero offense when approaching--before you're within range to take Locks--due to Howl + Focus.  Once you're into Lock Range, Howl does something pretty similar to a Fire Control System if Locked, and makes your guns suck less if you're unable to shoot with a Lock.

On 5/27/2019 at 9:28 PM, BeardRedman said:

Howlrunner only works for primary attacks. If she worked for turrets, you'd have something, there.

The downside of a Howl Aggressor swarm is that you don't get rerolls on your Ion attacks (well, that and Aggressors are a degree squishier than Y-Wings).  The upside, however, is that you'll have 4 Ion Cannon shots.  I don't think any other 5-ship double-tap turret squad gets both 4 Ion Cannons and some form of rerolls.  I mean, I think it'll still be worse overall than Drea, but that'd be a bit of an angle an Aggressor swarm gains over other squads.

Edited by theBitterFig

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I feel like the devs are gonna create a niche for the TIE/ag in a new, faction-limited Imperial Turret. 

Other than the return of something akin to the old Synced Turret, I don't know what they can do to make the AG have a home. 

latest?cb=20170315143420

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So I've been enjoying TIE/sf a bunch lately.  They're nearly the same dial and statline, with an extra HP (HUGELY IMPORTANT, to be sure), but their turret can only go rear.  But a thought occurred to me: maybe the TIE/sf points the way to the right way to fly a TIE/ag.  Stay cheap, grab a turret, and keep guns on stuff.  Side arcs are wide, and time-on-target is going to be high.

To that end,

  • Sienar Specialist (Dorsal Turret) 31
  • Sienar Specialist (Dorsal Turret) 31
  • Sienar Specialist (Dorsal Turret) 31
  • Sienar Specialist (Dorsal Turret) 31
  • Darth Vader (Fire Control System, Afterburners) 75

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8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

So I've been enjoying TIE/sf a bunch lately.  They're nearly the same dial and statline, with an extra HP (HUGELY IMPORTANT, to be sure), but their turret can only go rear.

And they can equip Optics, which is something the Aggie cannot compensate for (besides sticking Howlie nearby, of course, but then why aren't you just flying Inferno squadron?). The SF's strength isn't just that it can keep guns on stuff for cheap; it's that it can keep extremely reliable guns on stuff for cheap. The Aggie can't.

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3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

And they can equip Optics, which is something the Aggie cannot compensate for (besides sticking Howlie nearby, of course, but then why aren't you just flying Inferno squadron?). The SF's strength isn't just that it can keep guns on stuff for cheap; it's that it can keep extremely reliable guns on stuff for cheap. The Aggie can't.

Optics is great, don't get me wrong.  But in my experience, SFs without Optics aren't terrible.  Heck, even Fanatical SFs won't always have Fanatical active.  Those ships don't feel useless in the meanwhile.

Do I think a cheap, Turret-only Aggressor is better than an SF?  No, I think it's probably worse.  The missing hit point is too big, even if a side-arc might be easier than a rear-arc (might not be!).  But is the cheap, Turret-only plan a better way to fly an Aggressor than other ways of flying Aggressors?  I think it might be.

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